Why do people not like the Alienist PrC?

[atemu1234]

I've taken a look at it and run a conjurer with it. Works out pretty well (combined with ACFs from Unearthed Arcana), so why do people not like it? Heck, you don't even lose casting and the way I have it set up, most class features.

[Necroticplague]

Well, here's one reason why:
Whenever an alienist would use any summon monster spell to summon a celestial or fiendish creature, she instead summons a pseudonatural version of that creature. For example, by casting summon monster IV, she could summon a pseudonatural dire wolf. This adds the pseudonatural template (see page 160) to the summoned creature. An alienist gives up the ability to summon nonpseudonatural creatures with a summon monster spell. For instance, the alienist described above couldn't summon a mephit or howler with summon monster IV.

[Extra Anchovies]

Necro said it all (or most, at least). Not being able to summon SLA-possessing outsiders eliminated almost all of the noncombat utility of the Summon Monster chain; the spells are still useful battlefield control, but you lose much more than you gain.

[nedz]

Well you could build one on a Druid, which would ignore that particular problem — unfortunately, there are other issues.


An alienist who attains 2nd level gains a +1 insight bonus on all saving throws, but she permanently loses 2 points of Wisdom.


At 4th level, ... She now takes a —4 penalty on ... Handle Animal checks made to influence nonpseudonatural creatures.


At 8th level, ... Her penalty on ... Handle Animal checks made to influence nonpseudonatural creatures increases to —10.

[eggynack]

Well you could build one on a Druid, which would ignore that particular problem — unfortunately, there are other issues.
The real issue in that case seems to be that the prestige class does very little under those circumstances without some serious work, and even then you're not getting that much. In particular, the familiar advancement and abilities do nothing, so you presumably have to pick up urban companion, and the summon monster abilities do also nothing, so you presumably need to get that on your list, maybe with a domain. So, as you noted, there are downsides, but especially damning is that there are few upsides.

[Jack_Simth]

Well you could build one on a Druid, which would ignore that particular problem — unfortunately, there are other issues.Plus little things, like the lack of Wildshape Advancement, the lower BAB, lower HP, and lower saves.

Alienist is something you put on an Arcane caster if you're looking for something flavourful, not if you're looking for something optimized.

[Extra Anchovies]

A one-level dip into Alienist can be very flavorful for a druid, however. Especially when going into Planar Shepherd, but Planar Shepherd (Far Realm) is quite a can of worms on its own...

[eggynack]

A one-level dip into Alienist can be very flavorful for a druid, however. Especially when going into Planar Shepherd, but Planar Shepherd (Far Realm) is quite a can of worms on its own...
I just don't much see the point, as neither ability does anything for a druid.

[Extra Anchovies]

I just don't much see the point, as neither ability does anything for a druid.

A one-level dip into Alienist can be very flavorful for a druid

Also, the one-level dip into Alienist lets you template all of your animals for free, which is nice.

[eggynack]

Also, the one-level dip into Alienist lets you template all of your animals for free, which is nice.
Doesn't do that at all, is the point. It only works with summon monster, and it only works with fiendish or celestial animals. It's just zero things.

[Psyren]

Basically it does zilch for SNA (and is a downgrade for just about every class that gets SNA), while utterly kneecapping SM. And because it is 10/10 casting and oozes with flavor, it is a seductive trap for the unwary who don't read it closely enough.

[Extra Anchovies]

Basically it does zilch for SNA (and is a downgrade for just about every class that gets SNA), while utterly kneecapping SM. And because it is 10/10 casting and oozes with flavor, it is a seductive trap for the unwary who don't read it closely enough.

Indeed, it was one of my favorites from CArc for a while before I joined the forums here and learned about how most of SM's power comes from SLA-using summons.

[Marlowe]

It's rude to answer a question with a question. So Sorry. But to the OP: What's the appeal? It's just a slightly crippled wizard. Why take it in the first place?

No. Seriously. Why look twice at this class? "It's not too bad" is not really a reason.

[BrokenChord]

It's rude to answer a question with a question. So Sorry. But to the OP: What's the appeal? It's just a slightly crippled wizard. Why take it in the first place?

No. Seriously. Why look twice at this class? "It's not too bad" is not really a reason.

Because you get some fairly flavorful stuff and turn into a freaking arcane alien? What reason besides "it's fun and fits my character concept" should anybody in a non-op game need to take a particular Prestige Class? I mean, if you're heavily detracting from what your concept is supposed to do, there's a problem (no casting master should have a bunch of levels in half-advancing classes) but in most cases, the fact that you're going for Alienist means that Alienist won't detract from your concept's mechanics, because Alienist, for better or worse, doesn't give you much more or less than it says it's going to give you. It's a very straightforward Prestige Class, and one of the few things in this game that's basically about as useful to the people on these boards as it would've seemed to the significantly-lower-op playtesters at WotC.

[Marlowe]

Because you get some fairly flavorful stuff and turn into a freaking arcane alien?

Because I've read my Lovecraft and I know that's not a good thing? :smallconfused: I seriously don't see the appeal. It has class features with featuring adjectives like "Mad" and "Insane". It's for people who want to circle the drain in the bathtub of physical reality and plunge the depths that Euclid never dreamed of.


However, what I'm really confused about is why the OP seems to believe there's a substantial hatedom for the class when in fact, it doesn't get a lot of mention at all.

[Extra Anchovies]

However, what I'm really confused about is why the OP seems to believe there's a substantial hatedom for the class when in fact, it doesn't get a lot of mention at all.

I think his question is why all of the mention of it is negative, few though there may be. I see it cited every now and then as a "trap" prestige class.

[tadkins]

Because I've read my Lovecraft and I know that's not a good thing? :smallconfused: I seriously don't see the appeal. It has class features with featuring adjectives like "Mad" and "Insane". It's for people who want to circle the drain in the bathtub of physical reality and plunge the depths that Euclid never dreamed of.


However, what I'm really confused about is why the OP seems to believe there's a substantial hatedom for the class when in fact, it doesn't get a lot of mention at all.

To you it's not a good thing of course, because you're sane and straight of mind. xD

Others aren't so lucky though! There are those out there with a...predilection toward madness.

[Marlowe]

To you it's not a good thing of course, because you're sane and straight of mind. xD

Others aren't so lucky though! There are those out there with a...predilection toward madness.

Yeah, but those guys all play Monks and Ninjas and would never qualify for this anyway.:smallsmile:

[tadkins]

Yeah, but those guys all play Monks and Ninjas and would never qualify for this anyway.:smallsmile:

Hey-o!

But seriously, the Far Realm is just such a cool of a concept, and Alienist is the closest thing you can get for a character related to that idea. I think it's a cool PrC based on that alone.

[Phelix-Mu]

Hey-o!

But seriously, the Far Realm is just such a cool of a concept, and Alienist is the closest thing you can get for a character related to that idea. I think it's a cool PrC based on that alone.

I do like the fluff of the Far Realm, but I like to try to avoid encouraging Far Realm-fandom among my players. It's cool in real life, cause we can look from afar at something that turns your brain into spiders just by being there, something that whispers rainbow-hued tears that runs up your cheeks into your eyes, something that reindeer ballpark advocate safety blanket and makes perfect sense while doing it, and that all can be pretty interesting.

It's one thing to be like "hey, that would be an interesting concept." Quite another to actually role play a person who gets up in the morning and says "today, more spiders-for-brains!"

[tadkins]

I do like the fluff of the Far Realm, but I like to try to avoid encouraging Far Realm-fandom among my players. It's cool in real life, cause we can look from afar at something that turns your brain into spiders just by being there, something that whispers rainbow-hued tears that runs up your cheeks into your eyes, something that reindeer ballpark advocate safety blanket and makes perfect sense while doing it, and that all can be pretty interesting.

It's one thing to be like "hey, that would be an interesting concept." Quite another to actually role play a person who gets up in the morning and says "today, more spiders-for-brains!"

I dunno, I guess we'd differ in that regard. I would find the idea of a character touched by these alien powers and slowly being transformed by them to be pretty cool. The PrC itself is even built in that it's a slow, progressive change. If it was roleplayed well, anyway.

But yep, you wouldn't be able to be "all there" in the first place if you ended up taking your first level in Alienist.

[BrokenChord]

Yeah, but those guys all play Monks and Ninjas and would never qualify for this anyway.:smallsmile:

As a player of casters and casters only, I resent the implication that I'm sane. :smalltongue:

I've read my Lovecraft too, and while M&M represents that a lot more closely than D&D, in Lovecraft itself, I'd much rather be the insane arcane alien than the totally human magician whose pathetic sanity prevents him from grasping true power.

In D&D, well, Alienist has its own flavor. What's wrong with wanting to play that kind of character?

[Marlowe]

Hey, if you want to play a mouths-for-eyes fingers-for-teeth external-intestines gibbering drooling abomination who makes everyone back away with whispers of "quick-henry-the-flit", up to you!

Not what everyone's looking for in a PrC though.

[Venger]

Because you get some fairly flavorful stuff and turn into a freaking arcane alien?

No arguing with that, aliens are cool as hell, and so's turning into one.


What reason besides "it's fun and fits my character concept" should anybody in a non-op game need to take a particular Prestige Class?
(something something stormwind fallacy)


I mean, if you're heavily detracting from what your concept is supposed to do, there's a problem (no casting master should have a bunch of levels in half-advancing classes)

that's exactly what's problematic about alienist. It's a summoning-focused class that makes you inestimably worse at summoning.

the prereq of augment summoning mean basically only summoners will enter because, as you said, it seems sort of cool and fun to play and it's not immediately obvious with a cursory glance that their summon alien disability will completely cripple the thing your guy's specialized in.



In D&D, well, Alienist has its own flavor. What's wrong with wanting to play that kind of character?

as we basically all seem to agree, there's nothing wrong with playing an alienist or other weirdo.

the problem with the class itself is it can hoodwink an unsuspecting player into entering it and end up shooting themselves in the ass.


I think his question is why all of the mention of it is negative, few though there may be. I see it cited every now and then as a "trap" prestige class.

yes, this is the reason it's problematic, not because it's a terrible class (it's full casting) it's just terrible at the thing it claims to be good at, like reaving mauler or fighter.

[Jeff the Green]

Alienist is ripe for homebrew/houserules, though. Aside from the obvious "you summon pseudonatural demons fix", you can neatly excise the summoning aspect. I'm currently playing a Spellweaver, and once I'm done with the racial class I'm going to try to convince my DM to let me mash up the Alienist and Fleshwarper, stripping everything summon-related from the alienist and everything graft-related from the fleshwarper. You end up with a prestige class that gives a couple metamagic feats, some good improvements to familiar, and some fringe benefits.

[Venger]

Alienist is ripe for homebrew/houserules, though. Aside from the obvious "you summon pseudonatural demons fix", you can neatly excise the summoning aspect. I'm currently playing a Spellweaver, and once I'm done with the racial class I'm going to try to convince my DM to let me mash up the Alienist and Fleshwarper, stripping everything summon-related from the alienist and everything graft-related from the fleshwarper. You end up with a prestige class that gives a couple metamagic feats, some good improvements to familiar, and some fringe benefits.

I'd play that so hard. Post what you come up with, I'd love to see how it works.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'd play that so hard. Post what you come up with, I'd love to see how it works.

I would as well. Those two classes' side abilities would be really neat together, especially the Elder Secrets paired with the Far Realms fluff.

[Jeff the Green]

I'd play that so hard. Post what you come up with, I'd love to see how it works.

Sure. I mean, what I ideally want would look like this with good Will, poor everything else:


Level
Special Abilities


1
Aberrant familiar


2
Alien blessing, elder secret


3
Metamagic secret


4
Aberrant familiar, mad certainty


5
Elder secret, pseudonatural familiar


6
-


7
Aberrant familiar, metamagic secret


8
Elder secret, insane certainty


9
Timeless body


10
Aberrant familiar, aiien apotheosis,



I.e. exactly what the two classes would get at the same level, just nothing related to summoning or grafts. Alien transcendence and aberrant apotheosis conflict and so would need to be modified. Since he's already an aberration, it probably makes sense for him to become more like the Daelkyr and be an outsider, so just use alien transcendence and add the +2 Con from aberrant apotheosis.

There's a good chance the DM will want to moderate it a bit, though. And we'll need to figure out entry requirements, since neither Graft Flesh nor Augment Summoning make sense.

[Extra Anchovies]

There's a good chance the DM will want to moderate it a bit, though. And we'll need to figure out entry requirements, since neither Graft Flesh nor Augment Summoning make sense.

Graft Summoning? Augment Flesh?

Augment Flesh sounds like a cool feat.

Regardless, that does look like a juicy combination. It's a strict upgrade from just taking levels in a casting class, so I'd probably peg it at 9/10 casting (losing 1 at 10th level, as is semi-standard for transformative casting PrCs), but that's just my opinion.

[Venger]

Sure. I mean, what I ideally want would look like this with good Will, poor everything else:


Level
Special Abilities


1
Aberrant familiar


2
Alien blessing, elder secret


3
Metamagic secret


4
Aberrant familiar, mad certainty


5
Elder secret, pseudonatural familiar


6
-


7
Aberrant familiar, metamagic secret


8
Elder secret, insane certainty


9
Timeless body


10
Aberrant familiar, aiien apotheosis,



I.e. exactly what the two classes would get at the same level, just nothing related to summoning or grafts. Alien transcendence and aberrant apotheosis conflict and so would need to be modified. Since he's already an aberration, it probably makes sense for him to become more like the Daelkyr and be an outsider, so just use alien transcendence and add the +2 Con from aberrant apotheosis.

There's a good chance the DM will want to moderate it a bit, though. And we'll need to figure out entry requirements, since neither Graft Flesh nor Augment Summoning make sense.

Seems pretty legit.

as a DM, I wouldn't have any problem with those as your potential class features. you'll hardly break any games with them.

don't forget the darkvision. it's useful and saves you a couple bucks on skum eyes. I'd say throw that on there with your apotheosis alongside +2 con.

I'd suggest you just go with fleshwarper's skill list for your proposal since alienists is both terrible and bizarre. knowledges, concentration, profession, spellcraft, gather info, spot, and listen. wtf? maybe offer taking alienist's 2 points as a concession instead of fleshwarper's 4.

prereqs can be cobbled together ok. both require any nonlawful. alienist requires planes 8. you can ditch "augment summoning" as you said and change "3rd lvl +summoning" to "3rd lvl+ spl"

fleshwarper needs arcana 8 (trivial) heal 4 (without graft flesh it's annoying, but doable by 5) and summon familiar, which you're definitely into if you're taking this class.

as a balancing factor to let your DM do cool stuff, you'll probably want to propose taking 2 feat taxes in toto, since these two classes each require one:

I propose you ask if you can have the prereqs be "any two aberrant feats" since that will begin both thematically and mechanically making your guy gradually more gross and disgusting from day 1 with stuff like tentacles from his back or frog eyes or whatever, that can easily be fluffed as alien traits from the far realm, and maybe for your metamagic secret or elder secret, you could also have the option of selecting an additional aberrant feat instead as an option.

I figure you have a name picked out already, but for this mishmash of classes, I'm feeling either fleshwearer or skintaker.


Graft Summoning? Augment Flesh?

Augment Flesh sounds like a cool feat.

Regardless, that does look like a juicy combination. It's a strict upgrade from just taking levels in a casting class, so I'd probably peg it at 9/10 casting (losing 1 upon entry), but that's just my opinion.

Augment flesh sounds like something you do to inflict ability damage to yourself in order to perform feats of great strength, like suffer the flesh or eldritch corruption.

personally, I agree with you, but if I tossed this at a DM and he said okay, but 8/10 losing a CL at 1 and 10, I wouldn't complain too much.

[TerrickTerran]

I remember mixing the two PrCs back in the day. It's a pretty funky combo and your idea is an interesting twist.

[Chronos]

People don't like Alienist because it's a fair, well-designed prestige class for casters, which means that it suffers in comparison with all of the caster PrCs that aren't fair or well-designed. You gain some things, you lose some things of roughly equal value, and you get more flavor. That's exactly what a PrC is supposed to be, not "you gain some things, you gain some more things, and you don't lose anything except maybe having to take a feat you wouldn't mind taking anyway as a prerequisite".

[Extra Anchovies]

People don't like Alienist because it's a fair, well-designed prestige class for casters, which means that it suffers in comparison with all of the caster PrCs that aren't fair or well-designed. You gain some things, you lose some things of roughly equal value, and you get more flavor. That's exactly what a PrC is supposed to be, not "you gain some things, you gain some more things, and you don't lose anything except maybe having to take a feat you wouldn't mind taking anyway as a prerequisite".

There actually is quite a big loss, and it comes at first level. As has already been stated in this thread, the main reason why the summon monster chain is powerful is because many of the summons have SLAs with excellent in- and out-of-combat utility. Alienist blocks access to these by forcing players to only summon pseudonatural animals.

[Psyren]

People don't like Alienist because it's a fair, well-designed prestige class for casters, which means that it suffers in comparison with all of the caster PrCs that aren't fair or well-designed. You gain some things, you lose some things of roughly equal value, and you get more flavor. That's exactly what a PrC is supposed to be, not "you gain some things, you gain some more things, and you don't lose anything except maybe having to take a feat you wouldn't mind taking anyway as a prerequisite".

No - people don't like it because it's a summoning class that makes you worse at summoning. A sorcerer 20, with zero class features aside from spells, is better at summoning than a sorcerer 10/alienist 10. That is bad design.

What it should be doing is making you better at summoning and worse at everything else.

[Val666]

The only reason I wouldn't play an Alienist is this:

Timeless Body (Ex): At 9th level, an alienist learns the secret of perpetual youth. She no longer takes ability penalties for aging and cannot be magically aged (see Table 6—5, page 109 of the Player's handbook). Ability score bonuses from aging still accrue, and any penalties the alienist might have already taken remain in place. An alienist is stolen away by horrible entities when her time is up, and she is never seen again.

[Psyren]

That's just dying of old age though, you can get around that via the usual means (immortality handbook, reincarnate, LW->reincarnate.)

[Novawurmson]

The only reason I wouldn't play an Alienist is this:

Timeless Body (Ex): At 9th level, an alienist learns the secret of perpetual youth. She no longer takes ability penalties for aging and cannot be magically aged (see Table 6—5, page 109 of the Player's handbook). Ability score bonuses from aging still accrue, and any penalties the alienist might have already taken remain in place. An alienist is stolen away by horrible entities when her time is up, and she is never seen again.

I mean, you would just die anyway. I guess it comes down to whether you would want to die or be abducted by Rapture Cthulhu.

[Necroticplague]

No - people don't like it because it's a summoning class that makes you worse at summoning. A sorcerer 20, with zero class features aside from spells, is better at summoning than a sorcerer 10/alienist 10. That is bad design.

What it should be doing is making you better at summoning and worse at everything else.

What makes you think Alienist is a summoning class? Looking at its class features, it seems to be for someone who wanted a slightly tougher mage (more HP, higher saves, DR, energy resistance) at the cost of being not as able to use summons as well or perform in any kind of social interaction.



People don't like Alienist because it's a fair, well-designed prestige class for casters, which means that it suffers in comparison with all of the caster PrCs that aren't fair or well-designed. You gain some things, you lose some things of roughly equal value, and you get more flavor. That's exactly what a PrC is supposed to be, not "you gain some things, you gain some more things, and you don't lose anything except maybe having to take a feat you wouldn't mind taking anyway as a prerequisite".

Except the thing you give up normally isn't an actual thing, its the lack of gaining something else. Even SBOH, as horrible a class as it is, doesn't make you any less capable of doing anything, it just doesn't make you as good at doing anything as something else. Meanwhile, Alienist actively makes you worse at things, in exchange for things that normally don't come remotely close to it. Being useless in any kind of social situation<6 HP. Only real one that might be of equal value is +1 saves to -2 wisdom. However, you could get better benefits from dipping monk for pete's sake. As for fluff, there are several ways to do it that fit the fluff just as good, if not better, without hamstringing yourself. Deformity (Madness), Cerebrosis, Eldritch Corruption, Master Transmorgrifist (I can never spell that one right), Fleshwarper. And thus just off the top of my head.

[Psyren]

What makes you think Alienist is a summoning class?

Not sure if you're being sarcastic but:


Requirements:

Feats: Augment Summoning
Spells: Able to cast at least one summoning spell of 3rd level or higher.

If they didn't want you to be a summoner going in, they've got a funny way of showing it.

[Madhava]

Honestly, this looks like a reasonable PrC choice for, say, a Sorcerer. More HP, type: outsider, acid/electric resistance, familiar progression... all for a feat tax of one. But it then gains two feats later on. Compare this to a Sorcerer's normal class features (basically nothing), then I'd say it's decent, albeit certainly not the strongest choice.

And what does one miss out on? They can't ever summon an elemental, a djinn, or a bebilith? Sure, bebilith are useful/nasty, but you could live without ever having one.

Maybe I'm failing to grasp this utility-aspect of SM. As I see it, the ultra-short duration limits your Summoning Fun Time to (mostly) combat situations, no? How useful is it to have an invisible stalker run reconnaissance for you, when it just disappears in 1.5 minute?

[Psyren]

And what does one miss out on? They can't ever summon an elemental, a djinn, or a bebilith? Sure, bebilith are useful/nasty, but you could live without ever having one.

Maybe I'm failing to grasp this utility-aspect of SM. As I see it, the ultra-short duration limits your Summoning Fun Time to (mostly) combat situations, no? How useful is it to have an invisible stalker run reconnaissance for you, when it just disappears in 1.5 minute?

1.5 minutes is 15 rounds. That's a lot of movement for a scout to cover in a dungeon, especially one that can receive instructions in Common, eavesdrop, and report back what it heard and saw without being seen itself. And even SM3 gets you scouts that can walk through walls and report back.

To give you an idea of what you're losing, a single spell (SMV) gets you:

- immunity to (most) compulsions and charms for all allies within 10ft.
- Speak to any creature regardless of language
- Automatically block arrows, bolts and bullets.
- blocks line of sight with fog
- At-will detect evil
- At-will message.
- Greater teleport at will with objects

[Divayth Fyr]

Maybe I'm failing to grasp this utility-aspect of SM. As I see it, the ultra-short duration limits your Summoning Fun Time to (mostly) combat situations, no? How useful is it to have an invisible stalker run reconnaissance for you, when it just disappears in 1.5 minute?
Look at the spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5) summons can grant you (they're in a spoiler inside the main spoiler for each SM level) and tell me there is no utility there. Even morese for the Sorcerer you've mentioned, who will be far behind his wizard buddy when it comes to spells known).

[Chronos]

A paladin, say, does lose things by going into Shining Blade of Heironius: She loses progression of her spells, Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, and special mount. Most caster PrCs, however, don't lose anything, because they give full progression of spells, which for most casters are either their only class feature, or the only one of any significance.

And Alienist isn't precisely "a prestige class that makes you better at summoning". It's a prestige class that specifically makes you better at summoning eldritch Things that Should Not Be from Beyond the Bounds of Reality. At that specific goal, it succeeds: It really does make you better at summoning eTtSNBfBtBoR. At the same time, it also makes you worse at summoning straight Things that Should Be from Within the Bounds of Reality. This is by design, because it's supposed to make you worse at summoning sTtSBfWtBoR. It could do its job a bit better: They could, for instance, have added a few aberrations to the Summon Monster lists to make up for the lost fiends and angels. But it's still not too bad.

[Psyren]

The problem is that eTtSNBfBtBoR are really not that different from the regular (read: celestial or fiendish) critters when you get right down to it. You get a one-shot true strike, a handful of SR/ER/DR, and a weird tentacle-form thing that amounts to +5% miss chance. There's noting particularly outlandish there. A pseudonatural eagle still flies, a pseudonatural scorpion still doesn't.

At the very least I would've wanted some tentacle attacks and/or a chance to make creatures who can see them become shaken.

[Jack_Simth]

Honestly, this looks like a reasonable PrC choice for, say, a Sorcerer. More HP, type: outsider, acid/electric resistance, familiar progression... all for a feat tax of one. But it then gains two feats later on. Compare this to a Sorcerer's normal class features (basically nothing), then I'd say it's decent, albeit certainly not the strongest choice.Feat tax of two - most people do not take Spell Focus(Conjouration), which is required for Augment Summoning.

[Psyren]

It gets even worse once you add in the expanded summoning lists. (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1134896) Every book your DM adds makes Alienist a poorer choice; it's fascinating really.

[Brookshw]

It gets even worse once you add in the expanded summoning lists. (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1134896) Every book your DM adds makes Alienist a poorer choice; it's fascinating really.

Be that as it may you know you love Mostin.

[Jeff the Green]

Feat tax of two - most people do not take Spell Focus(Conjouration), which is required for Augment Summoning.

Though most candidates are Conjurers, and they can get a prerequisite-less Augment Summoning instead of Scribe Scroll.

[atemu1234]

Though most candidates are Conjurers, and they can get a prerequisite-less Augment Summoning instead of Scribe Scroll.

I believe the point was it makes conjurers worse.

[Brookshw]

I believe the point was it makes conjurers worse.

Nuts to the point, it's a fun class with tons of fluff and you're still a caster so it's not like you're taking some huge hit unless you really wanted to lord it over a fighter that much. Just because there are more powerful options out there doesn't mean it's a bad choice. I'm reminded of a quote by the Giant
I think trying to not offend people is a worthwhile goal. Unless they get offended by less-than-optimum D&D tactics, in which case to hell with them. In short, screw it, it's been well demonstrated by a very well done and popular campaign journal (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?58227-Tales-of-Wyre) as a capable class.

[Jeff the Green]

Nuts to the point, it's a fun class with tons of fluff and you're still a caster so it's not like you're taking some huge hit unless you really wanted to lord it over a fighter that much. Just because there are more powerful options out there doesn't mean it's a bad choice. I'm reminded of a quote by the Giant In short, screw it, it's been well demonstrated by a very well done and popular campaign journal (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?58227-Tales-of-Wyre) as a capable class.

The main objection, as Psyren noted, is not that it's weak (it's obviously not, since it's full casting) or that it doesn't have awesome fluff (it does), but that it's basically false advertisement. It bills itself as a class that A. is good for summoners and B. lets you summon eldritch horrors. The problem is that A is not true because it makes it impossible to use SMn spells for anything besides a brute squad (which SNAn is better at anyway) and B is not true because pseudonatural creatures are pretty much indistinguishable from celestial and fiendish creatures. If I wanted to summon horribly mutated monkeys that are virtually indistinguishable from holy monkeys I'd just take Spell Thematics. Actually, I wouldn't need Spell Thematics, as the core rules encourage you to refluff spells and alter their descriptions without any mechanical change.

[Extra Anchovies]

If I wanted to summon horribly mutated monkeys that are virtually indistinguishable from holy monkeys I'd just take Spell Thematics. Actually, I wouldn't need Spell Thematics, as the core rules encourage you to refluff spells and alter their descriptions without any mechanical change.

It is worth noting, however, that Spell Thematics (horribly mutated monkeys) would be a really cool feat to have, up there with Spell Thematics (katanas).

[Brookshw]

The main objection, as Psyren noted, is not that it's weak (it's obviously not, since it's full casting) or that it doesn't have awesome fluff (it does), but that it's basically false advertisement. It bills itself as a class that A. is good for summoners and B. lets you summon eldritch horrors. The problem is that A is not true because it makes it impossible to use SMn spells for anything besides a brute squad (which SNAn is better at anyway) and B is not true because pseudonatural creatures are pretty much indistinguishable from celestial and fiendish creatures.
Nah, that's just glossing over things. It gives you access to fluff that you can't reproduce normally including some of the mechanics. That you need to invest in other planar goodness doesn't matter a hoot. When does it say it's good at summoning, that it has them as requirement? That doesn't do anything to prove they're supposed to be good at summoning, it proves summoning is part of their bailiwick. It's easily enough fluffed to say summoning psuedonatural creatures is a challenge for a normal summoner and this berk is better at it than most by being able to contact these planes in the first place. Honestly the objections are stemming from an optimization perspective and, as the Giant said, to hell with that.

[atemu1234]

Nah, that's just glossing over things. It gives you access to fluff that you can't reproduce normally including some of the mechanics. That you need to invest in other planar goodness doesn't matter a hoot. When does it say it's good at summoning, that it has them as requirement? That doesn't do anything to prove they're supposed to be good at summoning, it proves summoning is part of their bailiwick. It's easily enough fluffed to say summoning psuedonatural creatures is a challenge for a normal summoner and this berk is better at it than most by being able to contact these planes in the first place. Honestly the objections are stemming from an optimization perspective and, as the Giant said, to hell with that.

To be fair, even with the summoning they have it's still summoning, and a decently built conjurer taking it (read:every ACF from UA for specialist Conjurers) then it's flavorful and fun to play, and yes, they specialize in summoning.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

pseudonatural creatures are pretty much indistinguishable from celestial and fiendish creatures. If I wanted to summon horribly mutated monkeys that are virtually indistinguishable from holy monkeys I'd just take Spell Thematics. Actually, I wouldn't need Spell Thematics, as the core rules encourage you to refluff spells and alter their descriptions without any mechanical change.

Bolded the last part for emphasis, because a lot of people forget about this. The option does specify that your spells all have to follow the theme while Spell Thematics lets you change things up at will. So your Grease spell will have to be the color of outer space and your Black Tentacles . . . you don't want to know.

The first part is the issue I have with a lot of "but flavor" defenses. The mechanics aren't actually flavorful. Unless you're a Sorceror, you probably dumped Charisma. Even if you are a sorceror, you could just roleplay losing touch with reality and being someone that nobody will ever want to talk to.

Traits, Flaws, Point Buy and Abberant Feats can achieve the same flavor with mechanics that support the fluff better.

[eggynack]

One of the big issues, I think, is that creatures that aren't fiendish or celestial are weirder than those that are. They are also often better, which is obviously important, but the point is, if you want to do weird stuff with summoning, pulling out creatures that feel fundamentally other, then you're better off summoning a yugoloth, corrupter of fate or chaos beast than you are summoning, say, a pseudonatural rhino. Thus, even if we narrow the domain of the alienist from summoning to summoning weird crap, the class still doesn't pull it off. It doesn't pull it off because, more than making summoning less powerful, it also makes summoning more boring. That's far more damning, and I don't think there's actually all that much in the way of arguing it.

[Brookshw]

To be fair, even with the summoning they have it's still summoning, and a decently built conjurer taking it (read:every ACF from UA for specialist Conjurers) then it's flavorful and fun to play, and yes, they specialize in summoning.

Not sure I follow but what I'm gathering is you can achieve the same results through other means. I'm not sure I understand that correctly though so if you don't mind could you clarify?

[Extra Anchovies]

your Grease spell will have to be the color out of space

Fixed that for you.

[Necroticplague]

Nah, that's just glossing over things. It gives you access to fluff that you can't reproduce normally including some of the mechanics. That you need to invest in other planar goodness doesn't matter a hoot. When does it say it's good at summoning, that it has them as requirement? That doesn't do anything to prove they're supposed to be good at summoning, it proves summoning is part of their bailiwick. It's easily enough fluffed to say summoning psuedonatural creatures is a challenge for a normal summoner and this berk is better at it than most by being able to contact these planes in the first place. Honestly the objections are stemming from an optimization perspective and, as the Giant said, to hell with that.
What unique fluff does it give? Cerebrosis lets you summon things from the far realm that are actually significantly different, aberrant and willing deformity feats can represent your changes towards alienity yourself, taint feats let you represent your knowledge of secrets so potent they actually harm require a sacrifice of mind and body. If you can get the same or better fluff with less punishing (or more selectively punishing) mechanics, why not use those instead?

[Blackhawk748]

Personally i think it looks fun, though i wish you could apply the Psuedonatural template to everything on the SM list as a Psuedonatural Bebilith sounds horrifying and a Psuedonatural Soul Eater is the friggin Haunter in the Dark. i think if you made that change it would be a lot better. Otherwise it seems a tad misleading, but in a Mid Op game i should be fine.

[Brookshw]

What unique fluff does it give? Cerebrosis lets you summon things from the far realm that are actually significantly different, aberrant and willing deformity feats can represent your changes towards alienity yourself, taint feats let you represent your knowledge of secrets so potent they actually harm require a sacrifice of mind and body. If you can get the same or better fluff with less punishing (or more selectively punishing) mechanics, why not use those instead?

Why do you say better fluff and think in terms of investment your proposal is less taxing. Beyond that, why should questionably optimization choices impact the decision :smalltongue:

Edit: and why, if you do, do you believe you'll enjoy a game less by choosing alienist instead of the alternatives you've proposed.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Why do you say better fluff and think in terms of investment your proposal is less taxing. Beyond that, why should questionably optimization choices impact the decision :smalltongue:

The point is that, mechanically, alienist isn't weird enough. Obviously this is a very subjective judgement, but Alienist is less "alien" than a lot of other options.

It's not about optimizing the concept of being alien, it's about optimizing alienness making a character that has an alien feel in both fluff and mechanics.

edit: If alienist gave double creatures like Malkonvoker and gave free metamagic like Incantrix it would still fail at being more weird mechanically than options that have been given in this thread.

[Petrocorus]

...I'm currently playing a Spellweaver, ...
What's a Spellweaver? Is it from PF?


as the core rules encourage you to refluff spells and alter their descriptions without any mechanical change.

Oh my... I never noticed. This is in the spell chapter of the PHB?

[Kelb_Panthera]

The only spellweaver I know of is a creature from one of the monster books, MM2 or FF I think.

I imagine jeff is moving through a racial class.

[eggynack]

The point is that, mechanically, alienist isn't weird enough. Obviously this is a very subjective judgement, but Alienist is less "alien" than a lot of other options.

It's not about optimizing the concept of being alien, it's about optimizing alienness making a character that has an alien feel in both fluff and mechanics.

edit: If alienist gave double creatures like Malkonvoker and gave free metamagic like Incantrix it would still fail at being more weird mechanically than options that have been given in this thread.
In point of fact, as I noted, a wizard 20 is probably has a higher level of alienness in its mechanics than a wizard 10/alienist 10, at least when it comes to summoning.

[Venger]

The only spellweaver I know of is a creature from one of the monster books, MM2 or FF I think.

I imagine jeff is moving through a racial class.

it's from MM2.

I didn't think they were playable.

[Marlowe]

Not sure I understand the persecuted tone of some of the posts here. Alienist is not considered a great way to take a wizard, but it's still a full-casting PrC and as such a "Tier 1 beast", as one old thread here described it.

It's just one underwhelming PrC amongst dozens. I have no idea why it's being singled out for impassioned defence.

What next is it going to be? "All power to the Green Star Adepts!", "Save the Hellreaver!", "Scarlet Corsairs of the world; break free from your chains!"?

One thing do like about the Alienist, and this goes directly against the idea of it being "false advertising"; is that that it's presented in a very honest fashion as a direction you might like to not go. The artwork and the names of the class abilities are a pretty heavy hint that this class involves going stark raving bonkers.

[Extra Anchovies]

"Save the Hellreaver!"

The Hellreaver is actually a pretty solid PrC, though, especially in the right campaign...


One thing do like about the Alienist, and this goes directly against the idea of it being "false advertising"; is that that it's presented in a very honest fashion as a direction you might like to not go. The artwork and the names of the class abilities are a pretty heavy hint that this class involves going stark raving bonkers.

Oh, come on! It's clear as day from the artwork that this PrC is all about love and cuddles:

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111126081110/rpg/ru/images/c/c6/Aliensit_-_Complete_Arcana.jpg
lookit tha wittle doggie

[Petrocorus]

It's just one underwhelming PrC amongst dozens. I have no idea why it's being singled out for impassioned defence.

What next is it going to be? "All power to the Green Star Adepts!", "Save the Hellreaver!", "Scarlet Corsairs of the world; break free from your chains!"?

Is this not the point of Iron Chef competitions? Green Star Adept was one of the first ones.

[Marlowe]

Is this not the point of Iron Chef competitions? Green Star Adept was one of the first ones.

I thought the point of Iron Chef was to get the most out of something acknowledged as lackluster or to produce something that had the same flavour. NOT argue that it's an unjustly maligned darling.


The Hellreaver is actually a pretty solid PrC, though, especially in the right campaign...

Kind of hard to find a median level of "meh".




Oh, come on! It's clear as day from the artwork that this PrC is all about love and cuddles:

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111126081110/rpg/ru/images/c/c6/Aliensit_-_Complete_Arcana.jpg
[SIZE=1]lookit tha wittle doggie

Really, the Alienist is for a surprise-creepy NPC. Somebody helpful and a bit eccentric that the Players only slowly realise not just "a little strange" but is right round Thursday and coming round to twist the peppermint sprinkles over everyone's business.

[Jeff the Green]

The only spellweaver I know of is a creature from one of the monster books, MM2 or FF I think.

I imagine jeff is moving through a racial class.


it's from MM2.

I didn't think they were playable.

It was given an LA of +7 in the update booklet and so is just barely playable. I am using a racial class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9262850&postcount=196), though. (I don't actually recommend that class without significant alterations, by the way; this is a pretty freaky-high power campaign and we still had to drop the spells per day and limit some of the abilities, and I'm still one of the most powerful members of the party, if not the most though part of that might have to do with the trebled wealth from sticking Artificer on the other side of the gestalt.)

He's the unpronounceable one in my sig (As a telepathic but otherwise mute being I figured it'd make sense for him to have a name that isn't translatable into sound. Its <The sensation of dancing to "three blind mice" played backwards with a stubbed toe while sniffing acetone and peonies>. He has a colleague named <The sound of screeching steel overlaid with Gregorian chanting accompanied by scent of fermenting plums and the tickling of a feather in one's appendix>.)


One thing do like about the Alienist, and this goes directly against the idea of it being "false advertising"; is that that it's presented in a very honest fashion as a direction you might like to not go. The artwork and the names of the class abilities are a pretty heavy hint that this class involves going stark raving bonkers.

The thing is that the class tells characters to run away screaming, not players; them it lures with honeyed words and promises of antediluvian horrors and the dreaming eidolons of aeons past and then when they draw near smacks them with a tentacle made of jello before running away, cackling. It's an awesome archetype and fluff (and basically the only class that even tries to make such an archetype viable), and as such we expect some good mechanics to go with it. The ones that are actually there are lacking.

[ngilop]

Take a look at my fixed Alienist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16304386&postcount=1) and see if you prefer that one OP ( or anybody else)



and yes,, I am still taking requests.

[Jeff the Green]

Take a look at my fixed Alienist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16304386&postcount=1) and see if you prefer that one OP ( or anybody else)



and yes,, I am still taking requests.

It's not bad. I'd still rather have something that loses the ability to summon outsiders and instead summons aberrations, but that'd be a lot of work. It's kind of dippable, though, particularly with that improved pseudonatural template (which I suppose is true of the original if you're okay with not having utility summons). Maybe make it apply to higher level summons only if you take further levels? Like SMI-III off the bat and the others at some rate between every level and every other level.

[ThisIsZen]

To those who are mentioning Mostin from Wyre, Mostin's Alienist seems to run a bit different from the RAW. He gets to choose whether he summons psuedonatural or normal versions of any creature he summons, and seems to be able to summon pseudonatural outsiders. The latter part is a memory thing that might be wrong, but the writer outright stated that Mostin gets to summon normal monsters if he chooses, including things an Alienist would not normally be able to summon.

Which, as houserules go, is one I'd be fine with tbh. Mostly 'cause I can't honestly see it causing problems - sure, you're giving a goodly bit of power to Summon spells from the Alienist, but... well, they're 20/20 casting Wizards anyway, or whatever they used to get in. They could quite happily run a completely different direction and just take Alienist for the fluff and not even notice whatever power differential RAW alienist might cause. Hell, Mostin was a divination-focused wizard who also tended to make heavy use of blasts, so arguably Alienist didn't really do anything for him anyway.

[Forrestfire]

Oh my... I never noticed. This is in the spell chapter of the PHB?

It's in the DMG, p. 34.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Take a look at my fixed Alienist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16304386&postcount=1) and see if you prefer that one OP ( or anybody else)


It's certainly better than the original.

It's mechanically strong enough that I'd consider it for an appropriate character concept.

8/10 casting and Malkonvoker's main shtick it's Malkonvokerness seems to overshadow everything else about it.

The levels that don't advance casting come at the same level as the least impressive abilities making them true dead levels, one of them should probably be at the same level as extra summons.

It still doesn't address the "mechanical flavor" issue. I'd prefer if the template it slapped on had something like tentacles with reach and grab or a mechanic that made things stick to it or an ability that made it randomly become incorporeal avoiding attacks including spells or better got abilities as random and even switched abilities after a random number of rounds.


It's in the DMG, p. 34.

Thank you, I wasn't the one who asked for a page reference, but I spent a fair amount of time looking for it to share. I thought it was located closer to the Witch Spell list.

[Eldan]

Hm. Now I'm tempted again to write a better Pseudonatural template.

How about we gather some ideas on what a creature from the far realm would look like if it tried to assume a material body? Mechanically?

-Internal anatomy is all screwed up: Light fortification, at least, maybe DR.
-Mind utterly alien: immune to mind-affecting.
-Horrifying-looking: some kind of fear effect.

That's the basics, but it's not very interesting, yet. Tentacles are a favourite, I know, but I think by now they are a bit, well, overdone. Not everything from beyond the stars should be a giant squid just because Lovecraft had a seafood phobia. Maybe it just adds a new natural attack form from a list.

It should have some ability that is basically "interacts strangely with natural laws". Randomly going incorporeal, as has been suggested, sounds fun. Maybe it levitates because it doesn't understand gravity?

[ThisIsZen]

A wild magic aura, perhaps? The Far Realm isn't just a place where natural law breaks down, after all, it's a place where all law breaks down.

[eggynack]

That's the basics, but it's not very interesting, yet. Tentacles are a favourite, I know, but I think by now they are a bit, well, overdone. Not everything from beyond the stars should be a giant squid just because Lovecraft had a seafood phobia. Maybe it just adds a new natural attack form from a list.
I think tentacles are a good idea. They're more than desired of otherworldly things. They're fundamentally expected. However, if this goes the new natural attack route of a different kind, I would be interested in a straight doubling of the primary weapon. Biting creatures get an extra mouth, clawing creatures get an extra pair of forelegs, and maybe goring creatures get a second head, or perhaps a big combination sort of head with one giant mouth and a pair of whatever the goring weapon is.

[Jeff the Green]

It needs to have some sort of non-Euclideanness. Maybe a +100 bonus to Escape Artist?

[eggynack]

It needs to have some sort of non-Euclideanness. Maybe a +100 bonus to Escape Artist?
Seems a bit basic. I like the idea that characters that interact with the creature make a will save, and if they pass they disbelieve.

[Jeff the Green]

Seems a bit basic. I like the idea that characters that interact with the creature make a will save, and if they pass they disbelieve.

Ooh, I like that. It makes it more dangerous against those with knowledge of eldritch lore and servants of the gods than the simple-minded. I still like my version just because I think a being from Outside should be able to basically ignore physical barriers in an entirely nonmagical fashion.

[Necroticplague]

Why do you say better fluff and think in terms of investment your proposal is less taxing. Beyond that, why should questionably optimization choices impact the decision :smalltongue:

Edit: and why, if you do, do you believe you'll enjoy a game less by choosing alienist instead of the alternatives you've proposed.

To answer in reverse order:

1. I don't normally like playing spellcasters, and only one of those requires being one, though overall I like the aberrant and similar concepts. Thus, I'd have more fun because the concept I want is supported this way, of which spellcasting is not a part of.

2. Because, in addition to to myself, I also play as part of a group. if I'm weakening myself, I'm making it harder on my team. Thus, given two equally flavorful options, I'll typically choose the most useful one.

3.Fluff: All these progress you towards greater alienity in ways superior to Alienist. If you think "alien creature" and think only "A bit tougher, but completely socially incompetent"? Because thats most of what Alienist provides. I'd rather my alien actually had some alien abilities. Like say, the ability to fold space to make attacks that shouldn't be possible otherwise (Aberrant Reach). Explaining exactly how would require a different little bit for each way, and this post is long enough as is. As for Investment: all of what I mentioned are feats. So you could could take two of these and still break even compared to Alienist. Meanwhile, it frees up your levels for something that that can be a better fit thematically. Like say, having magic so alien it sticks around a little and working when, by all means, it should be gone immediately (Master Transmuter), tinging your magic with a will of its own so you don't have to focus on it as much as your lesser brethren (Master Diviner), having corruption that runs through deep you can spread it to the point of overiding self-preservation easily (Master Enchanter), or being able to turn into creatures that only exist within the confines of your twisted imagination (Master Transmorgrifist (still trying to figure out how to spell that)).

[eggynack]

Ooh, I like that. It makes it more dangerous against those with knowledge of eldritch lore and servants of the gods than the simple-minded. I still like my version just because I think a being from Outside should be able to basically ignore physical barriers in an entirely nonmagical fashion.
They both seem like reasonable things. I also like arbitrarily giving a +5 or -5 to all movement speeds, because it amuses me to do so. There might be some other numbers that tend away from taking forms like that. Resistances in quantities that aren't a multiple of 5 could be a thing.

[Eldan]

It needs to have some sort of non-Euclideanness. Maybe a +100 bonus to Escape Artist?

That would just allow it to step out of bindings. How about very short-range (ex) dimension door instead? Just stepping into a different spacial dimension for a bit.

[eggynack]

That would just allow it to step out of bindings. How about very short-range (ex) dimension door instead? Just stepping into a different spacial dimension for a bit.
It would actually allow more than that. Epic escape artist checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#escapeArtist) let you slip through extremely tight spaces, and even go through walls of force. I'm not a fan of +100 though. Seems too neat. I tend to think that the best designs are as a fractal, where each minute element is akin to the larger whole. Not sure what the number should be, however.

[Brookshw]

-Horrifying-looking: some kind of fear effect. Shaken perhaps?


That's the basics, but it's not very interesting, yet. Tentacles are a favourite, I know, but I think by now they are a bit, well, overdone. Not everything from beyond the stars should be a giant squid just because Lovecraft had a seafood phobia. Maybe it just adds a new natural attack form from a list. Not sure I could say this correctly, maybe a disrupting attack of sorts, "you're mind cannot grasp the nature of it's 'appendage' and rationalizes it as [whatever natural attack]. Regardless though it's true nature is not meant to be in this world and disrupts natural course of what it touches." Give it a con damage effect.


It should have some ability that is basically "interacts strangely with natural laws". Randomly going incorporeal, as has been suggested, sounds fun. Maybe it levitates because it doesn't understand gravity? The levitating bit is great but incorporeal is a bit, well, boring if you ask me. There's enough ghosts etc running around. Maybe go for a cover effect instead, fluffed as being in our world only partially? Would align well I think with what you're thinking regarding the escape attempt. True strike should go I'd vote, no idea why they got that....


@ Necroticplague - well, we may simply have to disagree on this one. It's bonus spell casting feats give it something solid in terms of contribution (plus, ya know, spell casting really) and the alienish/abberation feats you mention are still quite accessible to an Alienist. Kinda hard really though to judge forward ported 3.0 material against content added later in 3.5. One problem with trying to discuss "alien" in D&D is that too many things we normally consider to be of that vein already exist within the planes, many things you've specifically described. We need something that doesn't fit into our world/the normal planes and there really isn't much.

[Eldan]

Miss chance, maybe, instead of cover. A bit like blur, perhaps?

[Brookshw]

Miss chance, maybe, instead of cover. A bit like blur, perhaps?

Yeah, something like that with some fluff tacked on.
Edit: I'm kinda thinking (laughing perhaps) that trying to use True Seeing or similar to by bypass the blur affect should force some kind of will save as you're mind tries to perceive the creatures true nature.

[Jeff the Green]

Maybe draw on the recent Doctor Who episode and make it able to convert things and creatures to its non-Euclideanness.

[Psyren]

Nah, that's just glossing over things. It gives you access to fluff that you can't reproduce normally including some of the mechanics. That you need to invest in other planar goodness doesn't matter a hoot. When does it say it's good at summoning, that it has them as requirement? That doesn't do anything to prove they're supposed to be good at summoning, it proves summoning is part of their bailiwick. It's easily enough fluffed to say summoning psuedonatural creatures is a challenge for a normal summoner and this berk is better at it than most by being able to contact these planes in the first place. Honestly the objections are stemming from an optimization perspective and, as the Giant said, to hell with that.

Is it so bad to want "powers and entities from terrifyingly remote reaches of space and time" to be a bit less pedestrian? Or to want "abysses of chaos and entropy that would blast a weaker mind" to do a bit more than -1 to hit? At a minimum, shaken or sickened would be nice.

It's not so much about optimization as it is about sheer ludonarrative dissonance. I can't find it in me to defend a class that is selling such a bill of goods, and I doubt the Giant would either. (And contrary to what you believe, he has no problem ripping on classes that don't do what they're supposed to either - Hexblades, Spellthieves and Monks have all been on the receiving end.) Your quote is out of context - he is referring to optimal party tactics or builds getting in the way of a story, not to a class that is simply advertising falsely.

[Jeff the Green]

Is it so bad to want "powers and entities from terrifyingly remote reaches of space and time" to be a bit less pedestrian? Or to want "abysses of chaos and entropy that would blast a weaker mind" to do a bit more than -1 to hit? At a minimum, shaken or sickened would be nice.

It's not so much about optimization as it is about sheer ludonarrative dissonance. I can't find it in me to defend a class that is selling such a bill of goods, and I doubt the Giant would either. (And contrary to what you believe, he has no problem ripping on classes that don't do what they're supposed to either - Hexblades, Spellthieves and Monks have all been on the receiving end.) Your quote is out of context - he is referring to optimal party tactics or builds getting in the way of a story, not to a class that is simply advertising falsely.

I don't think anyone's complained about power. Virtually everyone who's criticized it has said something like "It's full-casting so you're still basically God, but it fails on all other fronts." Heck, a number of proposed solutions have brought its power down, including one or two with lost casting, and they've been mostly agreed to have been better than the original even if we haven't found a perfect solution.

[Psyren]

I don't think anyone's complained about power. Virtually everyone who's criticized it has said something like "It's full-casting so you're still basically God, but it fails on all other fronts." Heck, a number of proposed solutions have brought its power down, including one or two with lost casting, and they've been mostly agreed to have been better than the original even if we haven't found a perfect solution.

Lost casting does not automatically mean power decreases. Malconvoker and Exalted Arcanist lose casting but both are far superior to Alienist. Fiendblooded is also 9/10, though you can treat it as 9/9 if you wish.

It's a very simple principle, so I don't see why it's so hard to convey - what you get out of a PrC should at least be worth what you give up. Alienist may not lose casting progression, but you are still giving things up upon entry; and furthermore, it is possible to gain things that are worth a casting progression loss too, which some of these fixes are attempting to do.

[ShurikVch]

http://www.studydroid.com/imageCards/01/3h/card-1164718-front.jpg
1. You all speaking about the Summon Monster like it's the only summoning spell in the game. If SM is unable, for whatever reason, summon required creature, then let's just cast some other spell! Your Summon Monster V is unable to summon, say, Hound Archon? Then, maybe, I dunno... cast Summon Hound Archon (which is, accidentally, one level lower, and even available in wands)?
2. Summon Monster have really really short duration. You can't just summon whatever half-hour in advance (unless you persist it). You will spent your precious actions to summon something, then wait until it cast whatever you need... O RLY?
3. You don't get whole list of summons. You get about 1/4 of it, depending on alignment and class. On some levels Good summons are better, on other are Evil ones, so you can't "have all the best ones", at least without dip in Malconvoker
4. What's about the entries which doesn't have access to the Summon Monster line? They have little to lose, and everything to gain. (Except druid, because better than druid is only Planar Shepherd)
5. By the way, archons, eladrins, and guardinals are celestial too, so their pseudonatural versions clearly should be available to Alienist


- Greater teleport at will with objects
No. Summon Monster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm):
A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities.

[Psyren]

1. You all speaking about the Summon Monster like it's the only summoning spell in the game. If SM is unable, for whatever reason, summon required creature, then let's just cast some other spell! Your Summon Monster V is unable to summon, say, Hound Archon? Then, maybe, I dunno... cast Summon Hound Archon (which is, accidentally, one level lower, and even available in wands)?

If you have to use other summons then what is the point of Alienist? None of those other spells will be pseudonatural. Particularly for sorcerer, now you have to burn additional spells known on crap like Summon Hound Archon and you still won't get everything the original SM would have given you.



2. Summon Monster have really really short duration. You can't just summon whatever half-hour in advance (unless you persist it). You will spent your precious actions to summon something, then wait until it cast whatever you need... O RLY?

1) That argument applies to all summoning whether Alienist is used or not.
2) The action loss in summoning is made up for by the action economy gained when the summon(s) are out and doubling or even tripling your actions each turn.



3. You don't get whole list of summons. You get about 1/4 of it, depending on alignment and class. On some levels Good summons are better, on other are Evil ones, so you can't "have all the best ones", at least without dip in Malconvoker

That's not the point, the point is that Celestial and Fiendish summons (the only ones Alienist keeps) are little more than beatsticks. They don't have the utility that other summons give you, like Bone Devil's ability to make the entire party fly or section off the battlefield with walls of ice.



4. What's about the entries which doesn't have access to the Summon Monster line? They have little to lose, and everything to gain.

See #1 - if you're not casting SM then why on earth are you taking Alienist?

[Zale]

The discussion of aberrant class features made me think of the Ozodrin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?320374-Tooth-and-Tentacle-Remix-3-P-PEACH) It's a cool class, check it out.

[kellbyb]

3. You don't get whole list of summons. You get about 1/4 of it, depending on alignment and class. On some levels Good summons are better, on other are Evil ones, so you can't "have all the best ones", at least without dip in Malconvoker

Arcane summoning is not restricted by alignment.

[Jeff the Green]

http://www.studydroid.com/imageCards/01/3h/card-1164718-front.jpg
1. You all speaking about the Summon Monster like it's the only summoning spell in the game. If SM is unable, for whatever reason, summon required creature, then let's just cast some other spell! Your Summon Monster V is unable to summon, say, Hound Archon? Then, maybe, I dunno... cast Summon Hound Archon (which is, accidentally, one level lower, and even available in wands)?
2. Summon Monster have really really short duration. You can't just summon whatever half-hour in advance (unless you persist it). You will spent your precious actions to summon something, then wait until it cast whatever you need... O RLY?
3. You don't get whole list of summons. You get about 1/4 of it, depending on alignment and class. On some levels Good summons are better, on other are Evil ones, so you can't "have all the best ones", at least without dip in Malconvoker
4. What's about the entries which doesn't have access to the Summon Monster line? They have little to lose, and everything to gain. (Except druid, because better than druid is only Planar Shepherd)

Uh, no. Not one of these points is correct.

summon hound archon is nifty if you want to summon a hound archon. But why would you want to summon a hound archon? It's thoroughly underwhelming. Also, the arcanists don't get that; the only other summon spells they get are the summon undead line.
First, something you summon gets its turn the instant it appears, on your initiative. Second, so what? The point of having a summon cast things for you is that it's a Schrodinger's spell, like shadow conjuration.
While Alienist can be entered by Cleric, it's usually mentioned for arcane casters that do have the entire list. In fact, Cleric is the only class with this problem.
The casters that can't cast summon monster but can cast a 3rd-level summoning spell are Dread Necromancer, Spirit Shaman, and Druid. Dread Necromancer's summon undead are a sideline and it loses out on a lot by PrCing more than a level or two. Spirit Shaman and Druid are both significantly hurt by the -2 Wisdom (except for an Illumian Spirit Shaman or a Spirit Shaman with the 3rd-party Dynamic Priest). Besides, summon alien explicitly only applies to summon monster and the other abilities are not only underwhelming mechanically but really dull.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

[CENTER]
1. You all speaking about the Summon Monster like it's the only summoning spell in the game. If SM is unable, for whatever reason, summon required creature, then let's just cast some other spell!

It's a matter of reducing the versatility of the spell. Without TO level divination prepared casters need to be ready for unanticipated situations, while Spontaneous casters can't afford to pick up a single use summon spell.


[CENTER][IMG]
2. Summon Monster have really really short duration. You can't just summon whatever half-hour in advance (unless you persist it). You will spent your precious actions to summon something, then wait until it cast whatever you need... O RLY?

Dedicated summoners can get this process done fast enough to use a Summon Monster spell to get an offensive spell. Other people are using them for out of combat uses or in corner cases like summoning a bone devil to get a dozen Wall of Ice spells cast.


[CENTER]
3. You don't get whole list of summons. You get about 1/4 of it, depending on alignment and class. On some levels Good summons are better, on other are Evil ones, so you can't "have all the best ones", at least without dip in Malconvoker


Everyone has access to all of them at the ill described risk of shifting alignments if they use spells with a different alignment descriptor too often. Without houserules to make the slide towards evil easier these will balance out to no change unless you make a opposite alignment summon your signature spell.


[CENTER]
4. What's about the entries which doesn't have access to the Summon Monster line? They have little to lose, and everything to gain. (Except druid, because better than druid is only Planar Shepherd)


Actually the Summon Alien ability does nothing for or against them.

[Necroticplague]

1. You all speaking about the Summon Monster like it's the only summoning spell in the game. If SM is unable, for whatever reason, summon required creature, then let's just cast some other spell! Your Summon Monster V is unable to summon, say, Hound Archon? Then, maybe, I dunno... cast Summon Hound Archon (which is, accidentally, one level lower, and even available in wands)?
2. Summon Monster have really really short duration. You can't just summon whatever half-hour in advance (unless you persist it). You will spent your precious actions to summon something, then wait until it cast whatever you need... O RLY?
3. You don't get whole list of summons. You get about 1/4 of it, depending on alignment and class. On some levels Good summons are better, on other are Evil ones, so you can't "have all the best ones", at least without dip in Malconvoker.
4. What's about the entries which doesn't have access to the Summon Monster line? They have little to lose, and everything to gain. (Except druid, because better than druid is only Planar Shepherd)
5. By the way, archons, eladrins, and guardinals are celestial too, so their pseudonatural versions clearly should be available to Alienist

1.Because the classes that use Summon Monster as their summoning spell are most fit to enter.Classes that use other summons give up even more, thanks to the poor chassis relative to base and a hit to their casting stat. Those that don't meet those qualification are also giving up actual class features, like a DN's Summon Undead not being effected, but losing out on his Animate Dead pool progression from staying a DN. Also, many alternative summons don't tend to populate the same list. The fact Summon Hound Archon exists is cold comfort for a Wizard, Sorceror, Bard, Warmage, Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, Wu Jen who lose out on that hound archon. In addition, the mention of (and class features related to) SM make it so those that don't lose out also don't benefit as much (extra summoning only applying to SM, for instance)

2.There's this great thing called 'utility summoning'. it's when you summon crap from outside of battle, not to prepare for the next battle, but to perform some task that isn't time-sensetive. Like when you're preparing to enter a dungeon. "Huh, its dark, anyone got the components for continual flame." "Er...No, but I know something that does!" *Summons hound archon* "Can you light these up for us?" (Of course, since it's a Summoning,not a Calling, they can't really say no)

3.Substitutions to what you can summon are not even close to 1/4th of summons. And unless you're a cleric of a god, the alignment of the spell is irrelevant.

4.Because they have better chassis, which Alienist smashes over the head. In addition, the other class features are either incredibly mediocre or bad. That druid takes a hit to his HD, FORT save, BAB, casting stat,while social ability goes down the toilet. What does he get in return? +1 Reflex save (which he could get by staying Druid until his Wildshape advanced to get more dextrous forms), DR/magic at the level where everyone and their grandmom has magic weapons, small resistance to acid and electricity (which Wildshape can already give him), an extra slot only usable for a spell he doesn't have, improvements to a familiar he doesn't have, and two feat slots of mediocre value (coincidentally, the same amount of feats he wasted to get into this class!)[by mediocre value, i indicate that the slots are only usable for certain types of feats, especially as contrasted to the general feat slots needed to enter].

[Jeff the Green]

"Huh, its dark, anyone got the components for continual flame." "Er...No, but I know something that does!" *Summons hound archon* "Can you light these up for us?" (Of course, since it's a Summoning,not a Calling, they can't really say no)

Why do people keep making this mistake?


When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire.

[ShurikVch]

If you have to use other summons then what is the point of Alienist? None of those other spells will be pseudonatural. But they still do their work. If you taken your 1st level in Shadow Adept PrC, does it mean you will since that moment cast only "shadow" spells?

Particularly for sorcerer, now you have to burn additional spells known on crap like Summon Hound Archon and you still won't get everything the original SM would have given you. UMD


That's not the point, the point is that Celestial and Fiendish summons (the only ones Alienist keeps) are little more than beatsticks. They don't have the utility that other summons give you, like Bone Devil's ability to make the entire party fly or section off the battlefield with walls of ice. As helpfully quoted Jeff the Green, "When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire." I wish your party to pleasantly die like Roy Greenhilt :smalltongue:
And Wall of Ice, unlike some other Wall spells, closed both ways. Your enemies will be as safe as you are. And after two minutes top, those walls will disappear. It may be kinda useful if you run away from some unbeatable enemy, but still...


See #1 - if you're not casting SM then why on earth are you taking Alienist? Firstly, flavor. Also, Alien blessing, Metamagic secrets, Pseudonatural familiar, Timeless body, and Alien transcendence


While Alienist can be entered by Cleric Dragon Below domain power - Augment Summoning as bonus feat :smallwink:


The casters that can't cast summon monster but can cast a 3rd-level summoning spell are Dread Necromancer, Spirit Shaman, and Druid.
Also Bard, Blackguard, Demonologist, and Paladin
And it's all only at 3rd level, Alienist need 3rd or higher
If we look at higher levels, we may see, say, Warlock's Tenacious Plague...


It's a matter of reducing the versatility of the spell. Without TO level divination prepared casters need to be ready for unanticipated situations, while Spontaneous casters can't afford to pick up a single use summon spell. Even commoners can allow UMD. Also, there is possibility to... you know... more permanent servant/henchmen/pet/whatever :smallwink:

Also, if Binder/Sorcerer/Anima Mage/Alienist bind Zceryll, and use Summon Alien, does it mean result will be... double-pseudonatural?

[Psyren]

But they still do their work. If you taken your 1st level in Shadow Adept PrC, does it mean you will since that moment cast only "shadow" spells?

No, but presumably it means you want to focus on that to some extent. Otherwise you can take something that is more generally helpful.


UMD

Not a class skill, eats WBL, and casting from items results in dismal CL for easy dispels and counters.



As helpfully quoted Jeff the Green, "When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire." I wish your party to pleasantly die like Roy Greenhilt :smalltongue:
And Wall of Ice, unlike some other Wall spells, closed both ways. Your enemies will be as safe as you are. And after two minutes top, those walls will disappear. It may be kinda useful if you run away from some unbeatable enemy, but still...

Your lack of understanding of battlefield control is appalling.

1) It doesn't matter what happens after the fight if you win or cripple the enemy forces before then.
2) The whole point is to divide up the enemy forces and pick them off at your leisure. For instance, throw a wall in front of the enemy archers, they are now all useless while your allies surround the melee. Or put their big fighter behind a ring of ice and while he is wasting his turns attacking it to get out, you are beating up the caster he was supposed to be protecting.


Firstly, flavor. Also, Alien blessing, Metamagic secrets, Pseudonatural familiar, Timeless body, and Alien transcendence

Flavor is the only thing there that is both unique to Alienist and worth anything. I'm not saying set the class on fire, but it has definite negatives that shouldn't be overlooked; know what you're getting into and acknowledge the flaws, don't try to paper them over with arguments like "but flavor!"

[kulosle]

For the same reason Conjure Ice Beast isn't talked about all that much. While it might make you're creatures better fighters. That's all it does and it makes them worse at doing anything else. And in general being good at being a fighter is probably the worst thing to be good at. That being said it's actually really good in low op groups that don't see the value of battlefield control and just primarily like blasting things. A friend of mine used it to summon a lot of bees and with the true strike ability, made sure they hit.

although hmm, if i'm an alienist and i cast conjure ice beast, could the pseudonatural versions of creatures be considered, "on the summon monster list" Could i summon an ice beast version of them? I think by raw the answer is no, but maybe it's possible to make a case to a DM.

What you really try to do with alienist is get SNA and SM trees, that way you are loosing too much of your versatility. But there aren't good ways (that I know of) of doing that on a non wisdom based class so it might not be a good idea.

[eggynack]

although hmm, if i'm an alienist and i cast conjure ice beast, could the pseudonatural versions of creatures be considered, "on the summon monster list" Could i summon an ice beast version of them? I think by raw the answer is no, but maybe it's possible to make a case to a DM.
No, as the class specifies that you must summon the creature with summon monster.


What you really try to do with alienist is get SNA and SM trees, that way you are loosing too much of your versatility. But there aren't good ways (that I know of) of doing that on a non wisdom based class so it might not be a good idea.
I don't really see how you figure. SM is the versatile line, and SNA is the brute force line, though there are occasional exceptions. You're ditching the versatility of SM, and keeping the significantly lesser versatility of SNA, which means that you're ditching a whole lot of versatility. Additionally, you're maintaining the brute force of SNA, which rather negates the point of using the increased force pseudonatural summons.

[thethird]

UMD

By that logic be a commoner.


As helpfully quoted Jeff the Green, "When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire." I wish your party to pleasantly die like Roy Greenhilt :smalltongue:
And Wall of Ice, unlike some other Wall spells, closed both ways. Your enemies will be as safe as you are. And after two minutes top, those walls will disappear. It may be kinda useful if you run away from some unbeatable enemy, but still...


If you want something that last longer (for ever and ever and even more) why not use wall of stone? Equinals give it two level earlier and Hammer archons give it two levels later.

[kulosle]

No, as the class specifies that you must summon the creature with summon monster.


I don't really see how you figure. SM is the versatile line, and SNA is the brute force line, though there are occasional exceptions. You're ditching the versatility of SM, and keeping the significantly lesser versatility of SNA, which means that you're ditching a whole lot of versatility. Additionally, you're maintaining the brute force of SNA, which rather negates the point of using the increased force pseudonatural summons.

I completely agree that it is far less versatile but there are some on the SNA list with nice SLA.

I wasn't asking if the class feature worked on the spell conjure ice beast. I was wondering if the class feature put the psudonatural creatures on the summon monster list. Cause Conjure Ice Beast says it can summon anything from the summon monster or summon natures ally lists. And conjure ice beast even says it functions as summon monster. On a closer reading of the alienist ability I don't think it does, by raw, but i'm going to see if my group will let this fly none the less. It's not like it's more powerful than simply being an malconvoker so they probably will.

[ShurikVch]

Also, there are such feats as Celestial Summoning Specialist and Fiendish Summoning Specialist.
Yes, it's feat tax, but you probably cheated Alienist entry with Dragon Below domain power, so it's one feat instead 2
Yes, you should ask DM about it, but it (probably) will be easier to convincing, because "I'm lost so many summoning options!" :smallwink:


No, but presumably it means you want to focus on that to some extent. Otherwise you can take something that is more generally helpful. Augment Summoning works with the all summoning sub-school, not just Summon Monster line


Not a class skill, eats WBL, and casting from items results in dismal CL for easy dispels and counters. 1. UMD is (Cha) skill, so, unless you are Wizard, you probably have a ton of Cha; and if you are Wizard, you have a load of skillpoints to spend
2. Every enemie's Dispell is one less SoL in the face of your beatstick (or even whole party!)
3. Do you even once seen PC who was remotely close to complaining: ":smallfrown: I'm broke! I spent all my WBL on one-use items..." Anyway, arcane caster need only component pouch and book, and divine caster only divine focus


Your lack of understanding of battlefield control is appalling.

1) It doesn't matter what happens after the fight if you win or cripple the enemy forces before then.
2) The whole point is to divide up the enemy forces and pick them off at your leisure. For instance, throw a wall in front of the enemy archers, they are now all useless while your allies surround the melee. Or put their big fighter behind a ring of ice and while he is wasting his turns attacking it to get out, you are beating up the caster he was supposed to be protecting. Are you forget Bone Devil is summoned with SM VII, which is available from level 13/14? And on that high level you expect to surprise enemies with... sheet of ice?!! What's prevent aforementioned archers from running around the wall? Or climbing it and shooting you from the top? Or, you know, jumping over it? And let's hope nobody of them have a Force Bow, otherwise he just shoot you though the wall
Same about the big fighter. And let's hope "big" means "Large", not "Huge" or bigger, because if not, then big fighter just wouldn't fit in your wall

[Psyren]

Augment Summoning works with the all summoning sub-school, not just Summon Monster line

I was talking about Summon Alien, not Augment Summoning. You don't need to be an Alienist to get Augment Summoning.



1. UMD is (Cha) skill, so, unless you are Wizard, you probably have a ton of Cha; and if you are Wizard, you have a load of skillpoints to spend
2. Every enemie's Dispell is one less SoL in the face of your beatstick (or even whole party!)
3. Do you even once seen PC who was remotely close to complaining: ":smallfrown: I'm broke! I spent all my WBL on one-use items..." Anyway, arcane caster need only component pouch and book, and divine caster only divine focus

1) "A ton of Cha" is at absolute most going to be +5 at 1st level, whereas most UMD DCs start at 20 and only go up from there. Plus you can't take 10.
2) It's not the fighter's actions you should be worried about, it's yours.
3) WBL you spend on those crap wands can't go to more helpful things like metamagic rods, rings, and wondrous items like ioun stones.


Are you forget Bone Devil is summoned with SM VII, which is available from level 13/14? And on that high level you expect to surprise enemies with... sheet of ice?!! What's prevent aforementioned archers from running around the wall? Or climbing it and shooting you from the top? Or, you know, jumping over it? And let's hope nobody of them have a Force Bow, otherwise he just shoot you though the wall
Same about the big fighter. And let's hope "big" means "Large", not "Huge" or bigger, because if not, then big fighter just wouldn't fit in your wall

Every wall they drop is 120ft long - thus a monster would need at least 60ft. speed to go around it (assuming they even can), and even then you are keeping them from full-attacking without using any of your actions. The devil can keep enemies sectioned off and hemmed in while you cast anything else, or sit back with a cold beer and do nothing.

[eggynack]

I completely agree that it is far less versatile but there are some on the SNA list with nice SLA.

That's true, but I think the solution is to just have SNA. There's not much in the way of upside of getting SM with versatility watered down along with standard SNA.



Augment Summoning works with the all summoning sub-school, not just Summon Monster line
Yes, but alienist only works with the summon monster line, and that's the class you're dumping a pile of levels in for incredibly limited benefit.

Are you forget Bone Devil is summoned with SM VII, which is available from level 13/14? And on that high level you expect to surprise enemies with... sheet of ice?!! What's prevent aforementioned archers from running around the wall? Or climbing it and shooting you from the top? Or, you know, jumping over it? And let's hope nobody of them have a Force Bow, otherwise he just shoot you though the wall
Same about the big fighter. And let's hope "big" means "Large", not "Huge" or bigger, because if not, then big fighter just wouldn't fit in your wall.
If they have to run around the ice, that's pretty much perfect, as is them having to take the time climbing over it. You're controlling the movement of your enemies, which is how BFC works. It takes time to do these things, so you're trading a partial action of yours, one round of the duration of the summons which you spent a round casting, and getting several of theirs. If the situation doesn't suit the wall of ice, because the opponents seem like they can bypass the wall trivially, then that's when you don't use wall of ice. That's why summoning is so awesome, because it's wall of ice and also all of those other things.

In any case, I don't even understand what you're arguing. Alienist obviously doesn't take everything. It just takes a bunch of stuff. You still have full wizard casting, just in a generally worse form. You seem to be claiming that, "Alienist doesn't take that much from you," but who wants that in a prestige class? What are you actually getting out of this class? It seems like the answer is actually just fluff, and fluff relatively unsupported by mechanics at that, and that's just not enough for a lot of people. Specifically, it's not enough for a lot of the people who dislike the class. If it's enough for you, that's entirely your prerogative, but you're not really swaying the populace by claiming that this summoning focus class only reduces summoning ability by quite a lot rather than by a massive amount.

[ShurikVch]

I was talking about Summon Alien, not Augment Summoning. You don't need to be an Alienist to get Augment Summoning. But you can't be Alienist without having Augment Summoning


Every wall they drop is 120ft long... and 10 tall - 1st level human commoner may jump it (with good roll)

[Psyren]

But you can't be Alienist without having Augment Summoning

Yeah but again, I don't have to take Alienist with Augment Summoning. I can take literally anything else and be better at summoning.


and 10 tall - 1st level human commoner may jump it (with good roll)

You can make it 50 x 20 too, and they still need a move action to get around it (and thus your devil is preventing them from full-attacking without using any of your actions in the process.)

[TheGeckoKing]

The Mastery of Madness feat (Player's Guide to FaerunEberron, p126) does the Alienist's signature class feature better - Whenever you summon a celestial/fiendish creature you can choose to summon a pseudonatural version instead by making a CL check (15+Spell Level), and if you flub the check you get a Wild Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#wildMagic) effect instead of the summoning spell. It has Know:The Planes 2, Spellcraft 9 and Iron Will as prerequisites, is optional to use each time you summon something and it honestly makes the Alienist look like a complete waste of time.

[Psyren]

The Mastery of Madness feat (Player's Guide to Faerun, p126) does the Alienist's signature class feature better - Whenever you summon a celestial/fiendish creature you can choose to summon a pseudonatural version instead by making a CL check (15+Spell Level), and if you flub the check you get a Wild Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#wildMagic) effect instead of the summoning spell. It has Know:The Planes 2, Spellcraft 9 and Iron Will as prerequisites, is optional to use each time you summon something and it honestly makes the Alienist look like a complete waste of time.

Eberron actually, and thanks for pointing that out. So you can replace the entire Alienist class with one feat, I'd say that settles the discussion. What a joke... *bookmarks*

[icefractal]

My main problem with it is that I really do like the flavor - and the mechanics do a terrible job of conveying that. Flavor alone is not enough. If you want anyone else to remember your character, you need to show, not tell. And that means that the results of your abilities are what stands out, not the name of those abilities. And everything about the results of the Alienist is disappointing.

Pseudonatural Template - because nothing says "otherworldly horror", like being more accurate once a day! Or turning into a horrific mass of tentacles and ... being slightly harder to hit. No other effects. If you changed the name of the template to "Lucky", it would probably be a better fit. And that's terrible.

Class Features - you can tell I'm overflowing with aliens energies by the fact that I'm slightly tougher, and marginally more likely to resist hostile effects. Oh wait, no you can't, that's something that seems more like an abjuration specialist if it has a noticeable effect at all.

But wait, couldn't a character be memorable just from their personality? Absolutely. But you don't need the Alienist for that, you can just be a straight Wizard who talks a lot about the secrets behind time and space and acts creepy. No special mechanics required. But if there are special mechanics, they should damn well do something worth noticing!

[darksolitaire]

Eberron actually, and thanks for pointing that out. So you can replace the entire Alienist class with one feat, I'd say that settles the discussion. What a joke... *bookmarks*

You still need to dump wisdom, take toughness feat and not take any social skills to replicate Alienist properly. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

You still need to dump wisdom, take toughness feat and not take any social skills to replicate Alienist properly. :smalltongue:

True, I shouldn't write off all that lovely flavor so off-handedly :smallbiggrin:

[ThisIsZen]

Mastery of Madness seems to suggest that a houserule buffing the Alienist's summoning wouldn't even be out of place, honestly, considering their entire schtick is actively worse than a feat. I'm thinking that giving them the choice to summon psuedonatural or non-pseudonatural versions of anything they summon, at the point of summoning, would make their two-feat tax+PrC level resource cost worthwhile as opposed to taking one feat, pumping a few skill ranks and taking Mastery of Madness.

This would include things like pseudonatural outsiders, of course... which, in light of the Alienist's capstone turning THEM into an Outsider, doesn't even seem that unreasonable. They blatantly get more alien as they level up and are noted as usually getting a cosmetic appendage of some sort upon hitting level 10, so they're clearly on their way to becoming Pseudonatural Outsiders themselves.

This makes Alienist, otherwise unchanged from RAW, a significant boost in summoning strength counterbalanced by loss of Wisdom and social skill ability. Maybe still not even but it weights things less on the 'penalty' side.

[Psyren]

A single houserule can fix lots of classes though. For example, if I houseruled Hierophant to advance spellcasting progression, that one change would make it one of the best PrCs in core, if not the whole game.

[ThisIsZen]

Fair enough.

[Kelb_Panthera]

and 10 tall - 1st level human commoner may jump it (with good roll)


....... no. That's a DC 40 feat of strength and skill, minimum. 80 if he doesn't get a running start.

A typical commoner has a +0 jump mod and, as such, can clear a 5ft wall on a natural 20 after a 20ft running start. With a little luck a 1st level commoner may be able to grab the top of a 10ft wall and spend his second move action hauling himself over the top. He will -never- be able to actually clear it.

[Petrocorus]

I thought the point of Iron Chef was to get the most out of something acknowledged as lackluster or to produce something that had the same flavour. NOT argue that it's an unjustly maligned darling.

I'm sorry, i might have misphrased that. I meant the point of Iron Chef is to get something out of those class, something that can actually be op enough to be usable in play, and so, Iron Chef can be used to salvage those classes and gives some builds that are usable in play with those classes.


It's in the DMG, p. 34.

Thank you very much.

[ShurikVch]

Eberron actually, and thanks for pointing that out. So you can replace the entire Alienist class with one feat, I'd say that settles the discussion. What a joke... *bookmarks*
You still need to dump wisdom, take toughness feat and not take any social skills to replicate Alienist properly. :smalltongue: Binder (with Zceryll, "The Star Spawn" (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718)) do it even better. Alien form. Alien Mind. Summon Alien - which not limited to planar animals (!!!)


....... no. That's a DC 40 feat of strength and skill, minimum. 80 if he doesn't get a running start.

A typical commoner has a +0 jump mod and, as such, can clear a 13ft wall on a natural 20 after a 20ft running start. With a little luck a 1st level commoner may be able to grab the top of a 10ft wall and spend his second move action hauling himself over the top. He will -never- be able to actually clear it.FTFY
Jump (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm)
1. Not including vertical reach; see below.
Medium 8 ft. 5+8=13

[Kelb_Panthera]

FTFY
Jump (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm) 5+8=13

Vertical reach is how high they can reach with their arms. I acknowledged that a commoner had a (slim) chance of actually getting over the wall but that's not the same thing as jumping clean over it or "clearing it."

[ThisIsZen]

Vertical reach means they could grab the top of the wall, not that they could jump over it. Vertical reach is irrelevant when you want to actually clear something - you've never magically appeared on the top of a wall if you jumped high enough that the tips of your fingers got over the top, have you?

It's even spelled out in the entry:



A high jump is a vertical leap made to reach a ledge high above or to grasp something overhead. The DC is equal to 4 times the distance to be cleared.

If you jumped up to grab something, a successful check indicates that you reached the desired height.

Meaning that on a nat 20, with a 20 foot running start, a Commoner can jump high enough to grab onto the top of the wall, but must then pull themselves over.

EDIT: They then have to succeed on a DC 15 Climb check. If they've invested in Climb then this is probably doable, but if they haven't then they've got only a 25% chance, give or take a bit of strength, to not immediately fall down after.

[Jeff the Green]

The Mastery of Madness feat (Player's Guide to Faerun, p126) does the Alienist's signature class feature better - Whenever you summon a celestial/fiendish creature you can choose to summon a pseudonatural version instead by making a CL check (15+Spell Level), and if you flub the check you get a Wild Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#wildMagic) effect instead of the summoning spell. It has Know:The Planes 2, Spellcraft 9 and Iron Will as prerequisites, is optional to use each time you summon something and it honestly makes the Alienist look like a complete waste of time.

Tira Miron on a stick. That's just insulting; not only does it replace a class with a feat, it does it better.

[eggynack]

FTFY
Jump (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm) 5+8=13
As he noted, doing that requires two separate rounds in most cases, which is pretty much perfect for the caster. If you can delay your opponents by a whole round each for the cost of an action of yours, that puts you in a pretty good place a lot of the time. As Psyren noted, you can also double the height of the wall, which makes jumping infeasible for the commoner, and for a good number of creatures besides.

Finally, as I'm noting right now, the bone devil actually isn't a wall of ice on a stick. The bone devil is a wall of ice every round on a stick, given that he has it at-will. That means that your commoner, right after getting over the first wall, could easily be facing a second wall, and that applies similarly for most methods of passage. This is off of a single spell, and you're just continually blocking off parts of the battlefield in whatever way you choose. Temporarily, sure, but repeatedly, and that's great.

On top of that, you also get major image and dimensional anchor, both also at-will, and the ability to personally act as a wall of meat for your purposes. A potentially invisible, flying, telepathic wall of meat. This is what you're sacrificing. Not a single wall that a commoner can bypass, but a massive network of walls, that adapt to the situation, backed up by a couple of other spell effects, and a friendly beat-stick on top.

And you're getting it for one spell. More than that, actually. Let's say you don't need infinite walls of ice and all of that other stuff. You're also getting the babau, with its at-will dispel magic, and the avoral, with its at-will dispel magic, hold person, magic circle, and so on, and hell, even the djinni, with its ability to grant wizards access to create food and water, if you need it. That's all just in core, and it's just looking at SNA VII. That same preparation also grants access to SNA VI effects, after all. The alienist loses all of that, and it is a problematic thing.

[ShurikVch]

Meaning that on a nat 8, with a 20 foot running start, a Commoner can jump high enough to grab onto the top of the wall, but must then pull themselves over.

EDIT: They then have to succeed on a DC 15 Climb check. If they've invested in Climb then this is probably doable, but if they haven't then they've got only a 25% chance, give or take a bit of strength, to not immediately fall down after. FTFY. Wall is only 10'. 10-8=2 (DC 8)


That means that your commoner, right after getting over the first wall, could easily be facing a second wall, and that applies similarly for most methods of passage. Nope. On what will stand that second wall - on thin air? :smallconfused: It's upper end would be below the commoner's heels (Also, all those walls will block LoE - enemies will be well protected from you until the Bone Devil disappear)

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Nope. On what will stand that second wall - on thin air? :smallconfused: It's upper end would be below the commoner's heels (Also, all those walls will block LoE - enemies will be well protected from you until the Bone Devil disappear)

Presuming these are self respecting archers they started outside of charge range. It should be trivial to place a second wall in such a way that it blocks line of sight from the top of the first wall to you.

The point is to divide and conquer. It's assuming a battle with multiple combatants on both sides like you see in most games, not a dual.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Nope. On what will stand that second wall - on thin air? :smallconfused: It's upper end would be below the commoner's heels (Also, all those walls will block LoE - enemies will be well protected from you until the Bone Devil disappear)

It'll sit in the ground 10ft in front of the first one, far enough away that the commoner, who's now balancing on top of a wall made of slippery ice and can't make a running start, can only clear the gap on a natural 20.

You're still missing the point. If there's only one foe then wall(s) of ice aren't the best choice and they don't come into play.

If, however, there are several enemies then you pop a wall or two in such a way as to divide their forces. Yes, one or more will be just as protected from you as you are from them until they work their way around the wall but the one(s) that you left on your side of the wall have been isolated from their allies and are in -big- trouble since they're now even more outnumbered than they would be if you had personally cast wall of ice to hedge out their allies.

You also, most likely, get to take a pot-shot at the enemy as they come around the wall since they'll possibly still be at least a move action away depending on how things have progressed on this side of it and ready actions are a thing.

It's a simple divide and conquer strategy.

[Juntao112]

Because you get some fairly flavorful stuff and turn into a freaking arcane alien?

And you have to deal with an eternity of tentacles.

[eggynack]

Nope. On what will stand that second wall - on thin air? :smallconfused: It's upper end would be below the commoner's heels (Also, all those walls will block LoE - enemies will be well protected from you until the Bone Devil disappear)
The second wall isn't atop the first wall. It's in a second location, possibly between you and the first wall, but possibly not. At the most basic level, assuming a jump up from any enemy that approaches a wall, each wall placed between you and an opponent will represent an entire round on their part. The devil is effectively trading actions one for one with a given enemy on that basis, and it can be more if more enemies are behind the wall. You can't engage those enemies, but as everyone notes, divide and conquer is a very viable strategy, because it cuts down on the opponent's action economy.

[Brookshw]

Is it so bad to want "powers and entities from terrifyingly remote reaches of space and time" to be a bit less pedestrian? Or to want "abysses of chaos and entropy that would blast a weaker mind" to do a bit more than -1 to hit? At a minimum, shaken or sickened would be nice. Not at all but the alternatives that were proposed are sorta weak. First, non-pedestrian does not equal more powerful, it's a silly claim that's been repeated far too often. There's no driving requirement that, what can be boiled down to as 'different' has to be an improvement. More to the point though, what's been presented in many locations is not representative of what the Far Plane should be about (if it can be said to be about anything), at least as relates our the Prime and general understanding of reality. For example, Necro brought up Master Transmogrifist (I make no claims at being better in regards to the spelling) and specifically called out it's capstone as drawing forth nightmares that exist only in the characters head. That's a bit odd in terms of what the Far Plane should be, as an MT draws from existing things and a bit of mix and match (how very alien, a shark with crab claws!). This is one of the strengths that Alienist actually has, where it doesn't try, to any exceptional extent, to make claims to what constitutes a Far Plane creature, rather it simply leaves open the impact of dealing with these things and allows for them being pulled into this realm. Even the things people want to point at as a bit dilapidated, toughness and intimidatewhatever, well, toughness is an odd one, but intimidatewhatever works great in the same sense we have fairly common myths about animals reacting to the presence of ghosts and other things that aren't normal. In this instance it's more akin to an almost inherit reaction to something that shouldn't be. That actually fits pretty damned well I'd say. That it mimics on many levels Lovecraft's allusions to the effects of things is kind of fitting really.


It's not so much about optimization as it is about sheer ludonarrative dissonance. I can't find it in me to defend a class that is selling such a bill of goods. Well if you find it wrong that's your call I suppose but I wouldn't pretend for a moment that somehow this is an undesirable class. It retains plenty of bang for it's buck and it's only when we consider the opportunity cost that we wonder at it's value. It's abilities and relation to the fluff is solid.


(And contrary to what you believe, he has no problem ripping on classes that don't do what they're supposed to either - Hexblades, Spellthieves and Monks have all been on the receiving end.) Your quote is out of context - he is referring to optimal party tactics or builds getting in the way of a story, not to a class that is simply advertising falsely. Not really, he was talking about inclusiveness of people, specifically the LGBT community and how we choose to interact. Sure he makes fun of the occasional class but I can't imagine, and I don't image you think this either, he would actually endorse at any level ridicule of people who are content with lower powered classes. More a live and let live as it were. Obviously I'm not Rich but that's certainly what I've taken away from him many comments (plus a certain frustration with people asking why X more powerful whatever didn't happen).

Without bothering to quote other passages, great, glad to see some crap designer decided to ignore preexisting content and threw in a feat that challenged the validity of the PrC. It's still short by far of many elements but does seem to close the gap.

[Venger]

Meaning that on a nat 20, with a 20 foot running start, a Commoner can jump high enough to grab onto the top of the wall, but must then pull themselves over.

EDIT: They then have to succeed on a DC 15 Climb check. If they've invested in Climb then this is probably doable, but if they haven't then they've got only a 25% chance, give or take a bit of strength, to not immediately fall down after.

It would actually be a DC 20 climb check because the wall's made of ice.

[eggynack]

First, non-pedestrian does not equal more powerful.
Sure, but non-pedestrian does equal non-pedestrian, and the alienist is not that. I would be reasonably satisfied were they to substitute out non-pseudonatural creatures with a new list, which would be made up of really weird creatures that aren't necessarily particularly powerful. In fact, it'd probably be fine to ditch the pseudonatural thing altogether at that point. I think you really want to emphasize versatility over power when you're dealing with weirdness, because if your answer to any given problem is to just do the same weird thing, then that weird thing loses a lot of its oomph. It'd help if alienist did let you do one weird thing, but instead it just lets you do one really basic thing, which is a marginal power upgrade to beefy creatures.


Well if you find it wrong that's your call I suppose but I wouldn't pretend for a moment that somehow this is an undesirable class. It retains plenty of bang for it's buck and it's only when we consider the opportunity cost that we wonder at it's value. It's abilities and relation to the fluff is solid.
I obviously disagree on that, and many others do too. The class is suboptimal, sure. But many of the criticisms have also been levied at the way the mechanics of the class line up with its flavor. Just consider, that by ditching non-fiendish/celestial creatures, the wizard summoner is most closely emulating a druid in its summoning style. A mediocre druid, but a druid nonetheless. That's just about the worst way to give off the impression that this class is unnatural.

[Eldan]

Okay, that's it. I'm going to the homebrew section to brew up some 2- and 4D creatures.

[Eldan]

There. See what you made me do? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?383502-Flatling-3-5-2D-creature-from-the-Far-Realm)

[Necroticplague]

Well if you find it wrong that's your call I suppose but I wouldn't pretend for a moment that somehow this is an undesirable class. It retains plenty of bang for it's buck and it's only when we consider the opportunity cost that we wonder at it's value. It's abilities and relation to the fluff is solid.Eh, not really. Even without considering what you can get from other classes or feat choices that are both more potent and/or flavorful, it still doesn't hold up well on its own. When you match what the crunch does, its just makes a socially stunted caster who's a bit tougher and focuses on simpler uses of summoning. That's a freaking autistic kid with powers, not a potent summoner of dangerous, alien beings. Especially since said creatures are just normal animals with a slight coat of paint over them. On its own merit, its rather 'meh' iin terms of power and matching up with its own fluff. its just gets ridiculously embarrassing when you bring other things into the picture that do it even better.



Without bothering to quote other passages, great, glad to see some crap designer decided to ignore preexisting content and threw in a feat that challenged the validity of the PrC. It's still short by far of many elements but does seem to close the gap.
Alternatively, 'Without bothering to quote other passages, great, glad to see some crap designer decided to create a class whos class features are so crappy that it seemed reasonable to have the main one accesable as just a feat'. Although i do have to wonder, when you mention feats, do you mean Cerebrosis, of master of Madness?

[ShurikVch]

Alienist 3.0 was so much better!..

1) Summon Alien was not limited to celestial or fiendish creatures. Instead, you can summon any available monster, and it will get pseudonatural template; but if it had originally celestial or fiendish template, pseudonatural replace it

2) Mad Certainty/Insane Certainty: instead blanket social penalty against all non-pseudonatural, Alienist 3.0 gets "phobia against a specified kind of creature"

3) Transcendence give no acid resistance, but electricity resistance 20, DR 20/+1, and switch your type to "outsider"

Nice job breaking it, Complete Arcane :smallmad:

[atemu1234]

Alienist 3.0 was so much better!..

1) Summon Alien was not limited to celestial or fiendish creatures. Instead, you can summon any available monster, and it will get pseudonatural template; but if it had originally celestial or fiendish template, pseudonatural replace it

2) Mad Certainty/Insane Certainty: instead blanket social penalty against all non-pseudonatural, Alienist 3.0 gets "phobia against a specified kind of creature"

3) Transcendence give no acid resistance, but electricity resistance 20, DR 20/+1, and switch your type to "outsider"

Nice job breaking it, Complete Arcane :smallmad:

Note to self- use 3e version of alienist.

Also, so instead of people being freaked out by you, you're freaked out by armadillos or some such?

[Brookshw]

Sure, but non-pedestrian does equal non-pedestrian, and the alienist is not that. I would be reasonably satisfied were they to substitute out non-pseudonatural creatures with a new list, which would be made up of really weird creatures that aren't necessarily particularly powerful. In fact, it'd probably be fine to ditch the pseudonatural thing altogether at that point. Eh, I don't think we really have enough weird thing in the game to pull that off in terms of things that match up with the Far Realm. We've got weird things, but in comparison they're sorta mundane. The more I think about it the more I'm realizing they really can't do Far Realm creatures in any way that should work as they aren't supposed to really make sense in the first place. Psuedonatural is a bit of a design cop-out but it's one that makes a certain level of sense.


I obviously disagree on that, and many others do too. The class is suboptimal, sure. But many of the criticisms have also been levied at the way the mechanics of the class line up with its flavor. Just consider, that by ditching non-fiendish/celestial creatures, the wizard summoner is most closely emulating a druid in its summoning style. A mediocre druid, but a druid nonetheless. That's just about the worst way to give off the impression that this class is unnatural. Eh, seems like the mechanics line up fine though they're not powerful. It pulls the o' Lovecraft alluding to the horrors rather than trying to express them, indirectly perhaps by filtering them through the caster.


Although i do have to wonder, when you mention feats, do you mean Cerebrosis, of master of Madness? Nah, that Eberron one they brought up that added psuedonatural summoning.


There. See what you made me do? Ohhh, nifty!

[Psyren]

Not really, he was talking about inclusiveness of people, specifically the LGBT community and how we choose to interact. Sure he makes fun of the occasional class but I can't imagine, and I don't image you think this either, he would actually endorse at any level ridicule of people who are content with lower powered classes.

I never said he was ridiculing people :smallconfused: In fact, you're the only person I see who is taking criticism of the Alienist, a decade-old class from a vastly different design universe, so personally.

Nor am I saying it is an "undesirable class" as I could only ever speak for myself (i.e. my own desires) in that respect. But what I can factually say is that there are more powerful ways to access the exact same (if not better) flavor, like a Fleshwarper with Master of Madness. So if it is flavor desires holding someone back from looking at other options, I can and will freely make the superior suggestion.

And given that MoM references CArc directly, the designer who created it must have read that book. So for all you know, they obviated Alienist completely on purpose - they took one look at it, made a sound in their throat that amounted to "blech," and proceeded to create a feat that did by itself what the whole PrC should have done from the get-go - not hamstring your summoning capability. Sadly it does not let you summon pseudonatural fiends and such (of course, neither does Alienist) but it's at least a step in the right direction.

[Venger]

Note to self- use 3e version of alienist.

Also, so instead of people being freaked out by you, you're freaked out by armadillos or some such?

yes, that's exactly how it works. it was plainly intended as a purely RP thing to have little if any mechanical effect:


The DM determine [sic] the creature feared. Good choices include spiders snakes, birds, or insects. Beings that share attributes with or those that resemble the selected creature also trigger the phobia

[ThisIsZen]

So that solves the question about what Mostin is, then. He's a 3e Alienist. That's basically him to a T.

[TheGeckoKing]

The niftiest part is, if you broaden your search a little bit, you can out-Alienist the Alienist by Level 6:

Any Race Sorcerer 3/Aberrant Paragon (Dragon 332) 3

Feats
1st - Cerebrosis (Dragon 330)
3rd - Iron Will
6th - Mastery of Madness

Aberrant Paragon is a 2/3 Spellcasting PrC, although its progression is limited to Sorcerers, Alienists (Ironically), Wilders, Psychic Warriors, Clerics and Favoured Souls of the Dragon Below and Warlocks, but it also progresses class abilities for Soulknives and Barbarians with a 2/3 progression. It grants d8 HD and 3/4 BaB, and over three levels it gives you/improves your Darkvision, gives you an untyped +2 Cha Bonus OR a +2 Str and -2 Cha bonus and penalty and finally grants the Aberration type in full as a capstone, while adding a class level sized penalty to Handle Animal and wild empathy checks. It makes Alienist look like a steaming pile of unnatural ichor while still having enough pity on the class to let it join in on the fun.

Also, the line "...celestial or fiendish creature..." could be (very loosely) interpreted to include actual celestials and fiends to be modified by Mastery of Madness if that wasn't unbalanced for your game, although I grant that it's a very poor interpretation.

[eggynack]

Eh, I don't think we really have enough weird thing in the game to pull that off in terms of things that match up with the Far Realm. We've got weird things, but in comparison they're sorta mundane. The more I think about it the more I'm realizing they really can't do Far Realm creatures in any way that should work as they aren't supposed to really make sense in the first place. Psuedonatural is a bit of a design cop-out but it's one that makes a certain level of sense.
It's admittedly a difficult thing to express perfectly, but jeez, it's like they didn't even try. At the very least, they shouldn't have actively made the wizard's summoning less weird. Because they did that. And, y'know, the game has a bunch of weird aberrations in it, and they could have used some of those.

Eh, seems like the mechanics line up fine though they're not powerful. It pulls the o' Lovecraft alluding to the horrors rather than trying to express them, indirectly perhaps by filtering them through the caster.
And I just don't particularly see how. The class makes everything into animal summons, which are just about the most natural creatures in the game. They could have done things to make them less natural, but they did not do that. They gave them true strike and a bonus to AC, which are not particularly unnatural things. Yeah, the AC bonus is done in a fluffy way, but it's just a really uninteresting ability. I read these abilities, the signature abilities of the class, and I find myself bored in a way that runs bone deep, and that's not a thing that should happen with a summoner from the far realms.

I mean, seriously, you say that they're going for the indirect expression thing, but the class doesn't have a single ability that causes opponents to go insane from the revelation of something they couldn't possibly comprehend. In the current form, the class basically reads, "Your foes see something completely beyond their understanding. They have looked into the void, and it has looked back into them. They take a -1 to hit." That's just so... boring. All of the mechanics are boring. They wrote this cool fluff text, and then interpreted it through mechanics in the most boring way possible. Honestly, not sure I can think of a more boring way to interpret, "An alienist’s mad certainty in the power of entities beyond the reach of normal space and time lend her an unnatural..." than by finishing the sentence with fortitude and giving them toughness. The whole class is like that. Just a big blob of nothing.