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kamikasei
2007-03-22, 07:03 PM
I may be missing something here, and if so, I'm sure someone will inform me of it quickly enough... but I'm a little confused as to how Knowledge skills interact with taking 10.

Can you take 10 on a Knowledge check? Are you, as with other skills, unable to do so if distracted or threatened?

My confusion arises because the Knowledge skill states that you can't retry a check without increasing your ranks - the first check indicated that you simply didn't have the knowledge you were seeking. However, it seems to me that you ought to be able to retry a Knowledge check that you failed when you were unable to take 10, if you come back to it later in less troubled conditions.

For example, say your party is cornered by enemies in a dungeon, and behind you is a door that you suspect is opened by a password hinted at by the runes and writing surrounding it. You roll to see if you can dredge up the appropriate password, but you roll too low. Wouldn't it be fair to say that, after you failed to open the door and had to fight off your attackers, you could come back that evening and take 10 to see if you could recall the relevant information now that no one was trying to eat your liver?

Note that I don't propose making it possible to make second attempts on all Knowledge checks, just those where you were initially denied the option of taking 10. If you thought the DC was probably high, so you risked a normal roll and rolled low, it's just bad luck that the dice indicated you didn't have the knowledge; you could have taken 10, so if you knew it, you'd have remembered it. If you were initially unable to take 10 due to distraction or threat, however, your failure on the check could simply be viewed as knowing the information but not being able to bring it to mind under stress.

What do you guys think? Is there any ruling out there on this? Does the way of working it that I've described seem like a reasonable house rule?

Variable Arcana
2007-03-22, 07:19 PM
Sounds reasonable to me -- for things you would know by taking a 10. Might rule that it'll take 1d4 days for it to "come to you" at the least likely moment, or that it requires "consulting your books" or something like that...

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-03-22, 07:19 PM
Yes, you can take 10.

Yes, the rules make no sense.

Yes, your house rule makes things better. I like doing the same thing in my campaigns.

PMDM
2007-03-22, 07:21 PM
Knowledge is probably the most confusing skill in the book. It's really hard to judge what a character "knows". I usually just try and downplay the skill, or I heavily use the modification that is on this website.

Cruiser1
2007-03-22, 07:22 PM
Note if a knowledge check has a high DC, sometimes you want to roll, because taking 10 may not be enough to make it. With your proposal, then whenever I want to make a knowledge check, I first summon a rat and tell it to attack me. While it's attacking me I make a threatened knowledge check and roll 1-20. If I fail, I dismiss the rat, then while unthreatened take 10 on the knowledge check. That maximizes my chance of making a hard DC, while still guaranteeing me making a medium DC that taking 10 will pass.

Deus Mortus
2007-03-22, 07:24 PM
Why shouldn't I be allowed to take 20 by a week of study?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-03-22, 07:33 PM
Why shouldn't I be allowed to take 20 by a week of study?
That could also work, I think.

Emperor Tippy
2007-03-22, 07:40 PM
Mutants & Masterminds allows you to take 20 on any knowledge check as a standard action if you have quickness 20.

Quickness 20 allows you to do stuff 5 million times as fast. So 1 standard action (3 seconds) times 5 million is 4,166.66 hours. Or 24 weeks. And this is assuming access to all available resource materials through something like the internet or being in a very large library.

So a week of study may be a bit low. Perhaps a month or even longer and even then only if you study 8 hours per day and have access to a very well stocked library.

kamikasei
2007-03-22, 07:45 PM
Why shouldn't I be allowed to take 20 by a week of study?

Because that study would be represented as either gaining a rank, or getting a circumstance bonus, or as simply going and finding the information without requiring a Knowledge check.

The Knowledge skill is supposed to represent what you know. What I propose here is a modification to allow certain failed checks to be treated not as not knowing something, but being unable to bring to mind something you know. If you genuinely don't know something, then studying to learn it shouldn't fall under retaking the check.

It might be reasonable to allow you to make another check when you get access to something that would grant a circumstance bonus, or other bonus for that matter. If you failed the check (taking 10), so you whipped out your Guide to Stuff and Things while you cast Fox's Cunning on yourself, I might allow another take 10. You've made it easier to recall what you know (a circumstance bonus for the book), and made yourself smarter and more able to make connections between other things you know to reach new conclusions (an increased Int bonus from the spell).

Ultimately this is all about treating the skill reasonably, which the RAW doesn't seem to do. My purpose in putting this forward was mostly to see whether the issue had already been addressed elsewhere.

Saithis Bladewing
2007-03-22, 07:55 PM
It really depends on the situation, but I agree that you should be able to take 10 or at LEAST reroll under certain circumstances. There are some pieces of knowledge that are just too rare to reroll to see if you can dredge up though.


Why shouldn't I be allowed to take 20 by a week of study?

I'd call that Gathering Information more than using your Knowledge skill... Knowledge is what you know, researching shouldn't be controlled by knowledge as you use research to increase your knowledge through the gathering of information and...knowledge. If you get what I'm saying. That's how I'd houserule it anyway.

Desaril
2007-03-22, 08:18 PM
I think your interpretation that new factors that change the task would enable a new check is appropriate. It really shouldn't matter if the task got easier or your ability increases.

In your example, there is a specific DC for remembering the password under those particular conditions. Later, if you try under different circumstances (no swords aimed at your head), it seems to be a different task, with a lower DC. I would allow the player to take 20, if they wanted to spend the additional time.

Also, if you find a book with helpful hints, you've also changed the task (although the mechanic to reflect this is a bonus, not a lower DC). It seems like a different task.

The limit on re-trying knowledge checks is prevent abuse and constantly trying again. I think any reasonable DM would allow this to be re-tried.

Jack Mann
2007-03-22, 09:30 PM
Actually, Eberron has a feat for going out and studying. It's called Research. You can go to a library of some sort to look up the information. You make a knowledge check (with a circumstance bonus determined by the quality of the library) and you learn more about the subject. You can retry, take ten, or even take twenty. Of course, if the information just plain doesn't exist in the library, you can't find it at all.

Mind, I generally let players do this without needing a feat.

Dhavaer
2007-03-22, 09:51 PM
Actually, Eberron has a feat for going out and studying. It's called Research. You can go to a library of some sort to look up the information. You make a knowledge check (with a circumstance bonus determined by the quality of the library) and you learn more about the subject. You can retry, take ten, or even take twenty. Of course, if the information just plain doesn't exist in the library, you can't find it at all.

Mind, I generally let players do this without needing a feat.

d20 Modern has this as an Int based skill, essentially Gather Information on inanimate objects.

AmoDman
2007-03-22, 10:52 PM
Actually, Eberron has a feat for going out and studying. It's called Research. You can go to a library of some sort to look up the information. You make a knowledge check (with a circumstance bonus determined by the quality of the library) and you learn more about the subject. You can retry, take ten, or even take twenty. Of course, if the information just plain doesn't exist in the library, you can't find it at all.

Mind, I generally let players do this without needing a feat.

You have to take a feat for going to the library? What kind of Marxist education system is going on here?

marjan
2007-03-22, 11:02 PM
You have to take a feat for going to the library? What kind of Marxist education system is going on here?

Knowledge comes at cost. :smallwink:

SpiderBrigade
2007-03-22, 11:32 PM
I think if you're going to use that rule, the more "bookish" classes (wizard, archivist, possibly cleric and maybe bard) should get it as a bonus feat. But on the whole, even in the less-medieval Eberron, your average adventurer is NOT going to know the ins and outs of using a library, putting together a bibliography for further research, understanding foot/end/text notes, etc. And that's assuming a modern library system that's designed for ease of use. If you imagine something more like that labyrinthine thing from The Name of the Rose (which could make a cool adventure site, actually) you're definitely not just going to able to waltz in there and use it effectively to make checks. Thus, a feat.

Draak_Grafula
2007-03-23, 08:45 AM
Note if a knowledge check has a high DC, sometimes you want to roll, because taking 10 may not be enough to make it. With your proposal, then whenever I want to make a knowledge check, I first summon a rat and tell it to attack me. While it's attacking me I make a threatened knowledge check and roll 1-20. If I fail, I dismiss the rat, then while unthreatened take 10 on the knowledge check. That maximizes my chance of making a hard DC, while still guaranteeing me making a medium DC that taking 10 will pass.

This is a problem I was considering. Ofcourse no DM would allow the particular abuse of the rule but simmilar situations could be imagined. I propose the following solution. When stressed a PC that wants to make a particular knowledge check has two options.

1. the regular option of rolling a d20 and adding his skill modifier. If the player choses to roll a d20 he loses the option of taking 10 later when the stress factor has been eliminated. If he fails he just doesn't know the piece of information he's trying to figure out.
2. rolling a d10 and adding his skill modifier. Failing this check means the PC just cant think of the answer right now but might if he takes a bit more time thinking about it; he has the option of taking 10 later when not stressed. Here however he does give up the possibility of rolling a d20 for this piece of info (until he invests a new rank of course.)

It's a bit of an odd solution but game technically this should result in a fair system. In unstressed situation the player can ofcourse choose wheter to roll a d20 or take 10 as normal.

Side note: I've actually never played in or DM'ed games before where we used the take 10 option for knowledge checks. NEver even considered the posibility. But it seems logical to be able to take 10.

Matthew
2007-03-27, 09:18 PM
A lot depends on what you think the 1D20 roll represents in this situation. I don't really see the problem with allowing a Character to make a roll outside of stressful situations and simply counting any result lower than 10 as 10 when it comes to Knowledge type Skills.