Help on using 'Readied' actions vs. ambush/surprise - in a maze and in general

[Harlot]

Once again, I am in need of aid - thank you in advance for any answers

So, I am the DM and the party of 6 lvl. 10 players runs around in a maze.

They and I have started using readied actions a lot and I am frankly not sure if we use them right.

For a readied action you may state that if this-and-this happens, your character will do this and this.
I thought one could only use the ready action IN COMBAT, but one player disagrees, arguing that ofcourse you can ready an action out of combat - like 'if anything comes within 100 feet of us, I'll alert the party'.
This makes perfect sense to me. And in the maze, the player would go: 'If anything comes around that corner, I'll shoot at it.' - I mean, that makes sense, but in the maze they're not exactly in combat, more like they are walking around slowly, being careful. So readied actions can be used out of combat or what?

If you may ready an action whenever you want I find it hard(er) to make ambushes - or rather, they're moot.
The players will proceed down the hallway, stating: 'if we are attacked, I'll shoot at the attacker' or the wizard may go: 'If something is thrown at us from a hallway etc. I'll launch the readied Cloud Kill spell right then ...'
So the enemies will attack but because the player is 'readied', he goes first anyway?
How then, can you determine surprise?

Last scenario, and the point in case.
In the maze, sneaky monsters are constantly waiting around the next corner - listening for the players, waiting to attack them when they come around the corner. Now, supposedly, to be able to do that, the monster had readied its action out of combat (or so the players argue) so it may attack the players BUT since it used a ready action, it loses it's movement after that (it can still 5-ft.-step). It can't attack and run - which makes it hard to be - say - a Tuckers kobold. In the maze the kobolds strategy would be to toss a splash weapon at the players and then run - but using the 'ready' rule as described above, the kobold can't do that. Which pretty much defies the whole idea of surprise attacks and hit-n-run strategy-using enemies.
Also, having an assassin wait hidden to attack someone: the assassins attack is supposedly 'readied' and thus he may very well attack, but can't escape/hide/flee that round.

So it seems to me that constantly readied players cannot be surprised and that a monster waiting to ambush the players is supposedly 'readied' and cannot escape.

What am I missing - what makes it work?

Thanks for helping
/Harlot

[nyjastul69]

By RAW, actions can only be readied during combat. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?381483-Why-no-one-uses-readied-actions&highlight=ready%20action) is a recent thread on the subject of readied actions.

[Jeff the Green]

Yeah, no. You can't ready an action before you've rolled initiative and you don't roll initiative until both groups are aware of each other. It's even called a "Special Initiative Action".

[HighWater]

Basically, those ambushes you hope to spring are all part of a Surprise Round, not the consequence of a Readied Action. Ambushes work because the ambushers know exactly that someone is coming and the ambushed don't know precisely when and where the ambush will be sprung, the ambushers therefore have the element of surprise.

So even if the characters are suspicious and expect an ambush around every corner, only if they manage to actually Listen or Spot the ambush before it springs, they can avoid being surprised. At that point, you're rolling initiative and the first one in initiative may declare readying an action (you can turn an ambush around on the enemy with proper tactics and forewarning).

This also applies to the ambushers: if they only vaguely know that someone will be coming by in the next fifteen minutes or so, they can't "ready an action" nor are they guaranteed a Surprise Round (you could give them a bonus on their Listen or Spot checks if they've been forewarned). It all comes down to awareness. Most ambushes are set up in such a way that the ambushers have a good chance of gaining a Surprise Round, because they'll become aware of the enemies sooner than vice versa.

As to your running-away idea: this is actually pretty problematic with Surprise Rounds as well. Surprise rounds allow only for a standard action (and free actions), so the kobolds can't attack & retreat in the surprise round barring special tricks. After their standard action, initiative is thrown and whoever wins initiative gets to go first. If you want your monsters to stand a decent chance of hit&run tactics, you'll have to mold the environment to their favour as well. (Higher ground, obstacles that prevent the PCs from immediatly stomping on the ambushers, retreat-options only accessible by the ambushers etc.)

[Grand Poobah]

The part you are missing is the spot/listen versus hide/move silently which determine how aware both sides of the combat are of each others presence.

A character may well say they are ready to do a, b or c if x, y or z happens but if they don't spot the assassin hiding in the shadows but the assassin knows they are there, the assassin acts in the surprise round.

Check the initiative/surprised/awareness bits of the SRD.

[Harlot]

hi all

Once again thanks for the fast replies.
OK - I did read the 'why no-one uses readied actions?' thread before starting this one, and actually asked the players to read it, but they still claim readied actions can be used out of combat. You all disagree and since I tend to agree with you, I'll stick to that.

Well, I am the DM, so following your answers here I'll simply reverse to having readied actions apply only in combat, having common surprise + initiative rolls govern the game once more.

I am saddened (but much enlightened!) by the knowledge you provided on the hit'n'run tactics, Grand Poobah - I feel it is unfair to change the setup of the maze or give the kobolds anklets of translocation at this point, so I guess they'll just die faster than intended.

Thanks for helping!!!

[Psyren]

The kobolds cannot simply ready actions hours in advance or whatever for something to turn the corner. To act first, they must be aware of the players before the players are aware of them, such as by listening at the corner for them to arrive or the players tipping off a sentry of some kind. They will then have a round where they can do whatever to the players.


Surprise

When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.

Determining Awareness
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.

Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks.

The Surprise Round
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants
Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

What you can do, since the kobolds are on their home turf, is give them a circumstance bonus to their detection and stealth skills. But keep in mind - your players may be getting inclined to argue because Tucker's Kobolds can grate on the receiving end after a while, especially if the players start to feel like nothing they do is making a difference.

[Harlot]

Thanks for clarifying surprise to me.
I agree that the use of Kobolds may grate on the players - however the campaign thus far has been a walkover for the group, and they actually - indirectly - asked for more challenges, so I thought I'd throw in the kobolds and get on their nerves... in the best way possible ofcourse :smallbiggrin:
The players moaning just goes to show that it annoys them, and ofcourse it should, but they are not without means and have loads of options still.
It is vastly annoying and slow to run around in a maze getting ambushed all of the time, but it is something different from what they've done thus far and change is nice, I think.
And, it should be said, these are good guys and we hardly ever have long or serious arguments, and even though they argue and moan it is, overall, all in good spirit!

[Ashtagon]

Yes and no.

You can ready an action outside of combat. But anything -- right down to walking or scratching your butt -- will cancel the readied action.