Am I being irrational?

[vricko55]

I'm doing an evil campaign with 5 other people, and our overall goal is to pick a country and conquer it. The leader of our party has the plan to travel around, doing quests until we make enough money to start a guild of assassins and then use them to assassinate most of the royal family. Then we have one of our guys skin the remaining heir and become him. The rest of the party thinks that this is a good idea and are all for it. But to me it feels a little far fetched. I think we should pick our country now, start doing small jobs and try to gain contacts while we gain info on the current ruling class. After that we kill and replace a minor noble or have our demon/ghost possess him. Use his resources to gain more prestige for him until he can get to deal with more important people. Rinse and repeat until we can get close to the King and just manipulate him behind the scenes. The rest of the party thinks this is too farfetched while I think training and sending a horde of assassins is even worse, and highly likely to have information get out. I don't want to go against the flow of the party but I also don't feel like our current plan will be very effective, at least in giving us our desired result. Should I just suck it up?

[Yahzi]

I'Should I just suck it up?
In the grand scheme of things, both plans are as good as toast the minute a Paladin walks into the throne room and says, "Hello, assassin ghost, meet Smite."

If your DM is at all on the ball, you're just pawns in some other BBEG's plans to take over. Possibly you're just cannon fodder to weaken the state, or maybe even just to create an amusing diversion. But the idea that a gang of evils could a) quest until they have enough power, and b) take over a country, begs the question: isn't it likely the king is already under the control of an assassin ghost?

I mean, don't evil people do this stuff all the time?

So, ya, just suck it up and enjoy the ride. The details really aren't going to matter that much.

[vricko55]

In the grand scheme of things, both plans are as good as toast the minute a Paladin walks into the throne room and says, "Hello, assassin ghost, meet Smite."

If your DM is at all on the ball, you're just pawns in some other BBEG's plans to take over. Possibly you're just cannon fodder to weaken the state, or maybe even just to create an amusing diversion. But the idea that a gang of evils could a) quest until they have enough power, and b) take over a country, begs the question: isn't it likely the king is already under the control of an assassin ghost?

I mean, don't evil people do this stuff all the time?

So, ya, just suck it up and enjoy the ride. The details really aren't going to matter that much.

you make alot of sense, thanks. Our DM does seem to have a very expansive world so I'm sure he thought of something. I guess I'll just hop on the crazy train and start my own evil cult. :)

[Red Fel]

Have you met my friend, David Xanatos (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/XanatosGambit)? He has some experience with elaborate evil schemes. Here are two quick lessons.

Lesson the First: You've been looking at this scenario as an or. You should be looking at it as an and. Unless your DM and/or other players have the attention span of goldfish (which is a myth, by the way) you can run multiple schemes at once. Why not do both? (Answer: Logistics. But that's beside the point.)

Lesson the Second: The Xanatos Gambit. Let your party prepare its plan to create an assassin's guild. Then plan for their failure. Don't act against them - at least, not unless you're entirely sure they're going to fail. But have a plan in mind. The ideal outcome is one of two: The assassin plan succeeds, placing you and your allies in charge of a country. The assassin plan fails, placing you one step closer to being in charge of a country.
In fact, their failure is the perfect opportunity to do precisely that. When they form their assassin's guild, it probably won't have the firepower to take out a ruler right out of the gate. They'll need time to build resources. And during that time, they may become visible. There may be a royal inquiry, an investigation. Wouldn't it be nice if somebody acted as a mole, approaching the royals, enabling the investigators to stop some assassinations (made to appear obvious) while conveniently failing to prevent others (which appear as natural causes, and thus raise no suspicions)? That's your character. He becomes the Royal Court's inside link to the criminal underworld, a valuable figure. A spymaster. Think Varys the Spider.

And when the time comes for the final assassination attempt, you make a choice. If it looks likely to succeed, you fail to inform the Royal Court. They rely on you, and expect nothing; the King dies. If, on the other hand, it looks likely to fail, you warn the Court. The attempt fails, and you now have the King's ear and his undying appreciation for saving his life.

Win-win.

[Larrx]

Wow RedFel, that was great. I'm starting to wonder if your not currently my overlord in real life working secretly behind the scenes . . .

[gnalish]

Redfel has a point. Allow me to add:

Lesson three: People tend to forget something in evil campaigns - your character is EVIL. I don't know what world stats your DM uses, but assuming commoners are level 0-1, at level 5, you've already done some major nasty things and gotten away with it. From that point of view, why isn't your party doing this themselves? It should be fairly easy to have your ghost or rogue scout out the castle and/or infiltrate the court. From there assassination is easy, especially with several other level 5 chars as support. You cut off the head, then fill the power vacuum. At this point, beware interparty strife.

Lesson four: Everyone is fodder. Nuff said.

Lesson five: You don't talk about fight club. (oops)

[dascarletm]

Red Fel, I have come to realize you are (in my mind) the formative expert in Evil characters. This reminds me, I should have you help me with an evil concept one of these days.

I'll start a new thread on it.


To the OP:

I was going to come in here and give you advice, but just do what Red Fel says. He's like actually Asmodeous or something.

[Val666]

I was going to come in here and give you advice, but just do what Red Fel says. He's like actually Asmodeous or something.

Indeed...just because of him my next new villian name is going to be Xanatos Gambit...

[Valefor Rathan]

I love this thread...

If you want to punch holes in the assassin guild plan, simply focus on the time frame involved - pouring resources into your own mooks means you don't have those resources to use on yourselves. A legion of assassins sounds cool, but that takes a lot of set up. You could, in theory, find a corrupt guard or noble to do the deed for you. Bonus - do this as well. Add another layer to Red Fel's plot.

Another option would be play this kingdom against another. Incite a huge conflict then pick off members of the nobility and courtly advisors. Gain followers from the commonfolk and military types and take power yourself.

No reason not to plot multiple, long running plans together.