Monk//Warlock Gestalt Character

[PalusAbel]

Howdy. I've got virtually zero real experience with 3.5e, and the only sources I've peeked into are the core SRD and Complete Arcane. The main topic of this thread is as the title describes; I was wondering how feasible a Monk//Warlock would be.

[Troacctid]

My favorite Warlock//Monk synergy involves using the Darkness invocation alongside the 7th level Dark Moon Disciple Monk substitution level from the Champions of Valor web enhancement. It gives the Monk total concealment in any lighting conditions below full daylight. With Darkness at will, that means free total concealment all the time. Nobody without blindsight can attack you directly. If they try to guess your square, they still have a 50% miss chance, and if they try an area attack, you have evasion, so neener neener neener. Take the Darkstalker feat and now even blindsight is no good.

I've never actually played this character, but I've been keeping it in my pocket for an NPC villain, although I ended up switching the Warlock side to Incarnate for those sweet sweet Tiefling substitution levels.

[PalusAbel]

My favorite Warlock//Monk synergy involves using the Darkness invocation alongside the 7th level Dark Moon Disciple Monk substitution level from the Champions of Valor web enhancement.

Yeah, that is pretty nifty. I'll keep that in mind if I play a monk who walks down the dark and evil path. Thanks.

[Red Fel]

Hey there. This is a thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?159708-Shinken-s-Guide-to-Melee-Warlocks).

Melee Warlocks have a little bit of material behind them, particularly if you're willing to allow Dragon Magazine material. In particular, Dragon Magazine gets you two things: Eldritch Claws: This is a feat that allows you to convert your Eldritch Blast into a claw attack. Note that it is not a Blast Shape, and as such, Blast Shapes can be applied. Note that these claws deal your unarmed damage plus Eldritch Blast damage. This will be important. Beast Strike: This is a feat that allows you to add your claw damage to your unarmed strikes. That means that instead of performing two claw attacks at your highest BAB, you can perform your sequence of iterative attacks, dealing unarmed damage plus claw damage. Remember that your claw damage is actually unarmed damage plus Eldritch Blast, so you're actually dealing double unarmed damage plus Eldritch Blast on every hit. You can also perform your two claw attacks (at -5 secondary attack penalty) in addition on a full attack. Note further that because this damage is being added to your unarmed strikes, it works with your Flurry of Blows ability (which ordinarily does not allow claw attacks).
Monklock is a very amusing combination, particularly because Monks are MAD as the day is long, and Warlocks are almost completely the opposite. The handbook I linked should have some useful tips if that's where you plan to go.

[Psyren]

Get Ascetic Mage (qualify with Precocious Apprentice) so you can base your monk abilities off Charisma. That way you can use invocations with a saving throw effectively and also be the party face with Beguiling Influence.

[PalusAbel]

Hey there. This is a thing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?159708-Shinken-s-Guide-to-Melee-Warlocks).

Melee Warlocks have a little bit of material behind them, particularly if you're willing to allow Dragon Magazine material.

Yes, I've looked over that handbook previously and found it rather helpful. I think that perhaps eldritch claws + beast strike might be a bit of overkill. I was wondering if this Hideous Blow fix (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?276045-The-Warlock-s-Hideous-Blow-%28Revised%29) might make things easier without going over the top. I'd happily spend one least invocation on that and deal lower damage compared to spending two feats for damage I probably don't need.

On a related note, I wonder if I could persuade a GM to make (the revised) Hideous Blow the standard eldritch blast and have my monk learn how to fire off beams later on. It makes somewhat more sense that way. In other words, Hideous Blow becomes the class feature and all the other Blast Shapes get locked behind eldritch blast.


Get Ascetic Mage (qualify with Precocious Apprentice) so you can base your monk abilities off Charisma. That way you can use invocations with a saving throw effectively and also be the party face with Beguiling Influence.

Based on a strict reading, I don't think that warlocks really qualify for Precocious Apprentice or Ascetic Mage. It seems to have been intended primarily for sorcerer-monks. It doesn't appeal to me either way - I don't think I'd be focusing on invocations that key off Charisma, since I'm not trying to make a serious caster monk. I appreciate the suggestion, though.

[Kane0]

If our already using a homebrewed monk, you might want to consider an alternate warlock (check the CCCC in my sig for a bunch) to avoid the standard binder dip and hellfire warlock prc solution to warlocks not being that great at higher levels, if you dont want to multiclass.

[PalusAbel]

If our already using a homebrewed monk, you might want to consider an alternate warlock (check the CCCC in my sig for a bunch) to avoid the standard binder dip and hellfire warlock prc solution to warlocks not being that great at higher levels, if you dont want to multiclass.

Ah, thank you very much. I'll look into those.

EDIT: I quite like the top entry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?226021-The-Warlock-a-massive-rewrite-3-5-Base-Class-WIP) on your list. Like Jiriku's monk, this warlock maintains the flavor of the original while making them more competitive.

[Kane0]

Pleasure to be of service, thats why its there :smallsmile:

I tried to do the same on my own, but i'm not going to go plugging it or anything :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Based on a strict reading, I don't think that warlocks really qualify for Precocious Apprentice or Ascetic Mage.

Even if Warlocks don't qualify on their own, they do with Magical Training.

[PalusAbel]

Even if Warlocks don't qualify on their own, they do with Magical Training.

Now that's definitely reaching too far. Cantrips are exactly what I'm trying to avoid by going with a warlock in the first place. Again, I'm not strictly trying to make a caster monk, instead looking to push the monk's supernatural theme with the less extreme at-will warlock abilities.

[weckar]

10+Int skill points? Isn't that a BIT much? I don't think I've ever seen any official material push it THAT far....


Even if Warlocks don't qualify on their own, they do with Magical Training.
False: You only have a caster level for the purposes of level-dependent effects of your spells. You do not qualify for Precocious Apprentice.

[PalusAbel]

10+Int skill points? Isn't that a BIT much? I don't think I've ever seen any official material push it THAT far....

That's a houserule of his. The general intent is that monks ought to get the same skill points as rogues do, as both classes can fill the "skill-monkey" role. Setting the monks up with 8+Int maintains that parity in a less skill-happy game.

[aleucard]

If you end up not liking Warlock too much but like the mechanics, Dragonfire Adept uses a lot of the same mechanics and concepts but with dragons instead of demons. Losing Eldritch Claw access will hurt your melee abilities, but literally the only two things you'll need are Constitution (which you'll need anyway) and possibly Charisma (with the possibility for similar things to swap the monk's Wis focus to it). The fact that DFA isn't Chaotic or Evil only like the Warlock is normally would also help explain its combination with Monk, in case you end up having to deal with a rules lawyer type.

Honestly, one of your better bets might actually to get Weapon Finesse. Your damage isn't going to be too Strength-dependent anyway, and Dex helps with doing blasts when you can't close in, as well as a lot of the more iconic Monk things like dodging and parkour. You shouldn't exactly DUMP Strength, but you don't need it past ~10 in this configuration.

[Psyren]

False: You only have a caster level for the purposes of level-dependent effects of your spells. You do not qualify for Precocious Apprentice.

Counter-false: Warlocks do have a caster level even without PA. MT is there for the other requirement ("spellcasting ability.")

[PalusAbel]

If you end up not liking Warlock too much but like the mechanics, Dragonfire Adept uses a lot of the same mechanics and concepts but with dragons instead of demons.

Honestly, one of your better bets might actually to get Weapon Finesse.

Ooh, yeah, that's pretty interesting. I'll see if I what I can do with that instead. Dragon monks are already a thing in Legend of the Five Rings, haha.

The monk fix that I'm using includes a Weapon Finesse equivalent as a class feature, so fortunately I don't need to worry too much about that.

[weckar]

Counter-false: Warlocks do have a caster level even without PA. MT is there for the other requirement ("spellcasting ability.")

Touché, although it strains RAI....