Oversized two weapon fighting help.

[Val666]

Hiyas people (:

Im going to start a new game soon and I choosed the twf with Ovesized twf route. For feats I'll choose the twf line, power attack, imrpoved bullrush and shock trooper. Im asking advice about other feats and tactics/tricks do deal large amounts of damage with this method. Everything in 3.5 is open by the way but his will be a martial character so no spell casting/psionics please.

[Darrin]

Im going to start a new game soon and I choosed the twf with Ovesized twf route. For feats I'll choose the twf line, power attack, imrpoved bullrush and shock trooper. Im asking advice about other feats and tactics/tricks do deal large amounts of damage with this method. Everything in 3.5 is open by the way but his will be a martial character so no spell casting/psionics please.

TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079).

Well, you've already solved the first problem of combining Power Attack with TWF: Oversize TWF lets you apply Power Attack damage to your offhand weapon.

Next, find out how your DM feels about the "Uncanny Blow" stunt from Exotic Weapon Master. If he agrees that it allows you to get two-handed PA damage by wielding an exotic weapon in one hand, well then... get yourself EWP in something one-handed. (I am hopelessly enamored with the bastard sword, but the dwarven waraxe is also perfectly serviceable.)

If your DM says no to "Uncanny Blow", then I'd recommend two morningstars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16508484&postcount=43) (or three! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18367975&postcount=68)) and Three Mountain Style for the save vs. nausea.

[Val666]

Thank you very much Darrin! I'll ask about exotic weapon master e.e Also, I was planing on using elventhinswords since those are finessable weapons and as a homebrew, they have dex to damage. The three mountains style is amazing e.e I have to think again the base of my "style". Thanks :v

[Tohsaka Rin]

Placing aptitude upon your weapons allows you to get much more mileage out of any fighting styles or tricks you might have available to you.

So whatever your DM says to Uncanny Blow (yes is good, of course, but even so) you should still go with Darrin's suggestion.

...And then pick up Lightning Mace as well...

Because cycle of hurting! Raawwrr! Beat them until they barf and/or die!

...Sorry, my coffee hasn't kicked in yet.

[Riculf]

Not sure if this adds to your build or not but you could take "Monkey Grip" (and, eventually, "Wield Oversize Weapon"). Weapons one size category larger makes for an interesting look :smallsmile:

http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/monkey-grip--1978/
http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/wield-oversized-weapon--3140/

[Extra Anchovies]

Not sure if this adds to your build or not but you could take "Monkey Grip" (and, eventually, "Wield Oversize Weapon"). Weapons one size category larger makes for an interesting look :smallsmile:

http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/monkey-grip--1978/
http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/wield-oversized-weapon--3140/

The issue with Monkey Grip is that when stacked with TWF all of your attacks are at -4. That's enough of a penalty that the average damage increase of ~1.5 or so per hit isn't worth it. Higher base damage dice look pretty (which is a big part of why the monk looks appealing to newish players - it had me fooled for a while), but they actually don't contribute very much - Strength and bonus damage (power attack, sneak attack, etc) count for much more.

[daremetoidareyo]

For your master's thesis in oversized twf, make the PC a diopsid w/mokeygrip

[Extra Anchovies]

For your master's thesis in oversized twf, make the PC a diopsid w/mokeygrip

Diopsid alone can do it quite well, but anything capable of wielding large weapons (half-giant, goliath, diopsid) + Monkey Grip = greatsword hitting for 4d6+1.5*Str, which is also pretty hefty.

Now that I'm curious, Monkey Grip versus Power Attack, with Powerful Build added on, in a table:



Base Medium-Sized Weapon Damage
Average Damage Increase from Monkey Grip (Medium)
Average Damage Increase from Monkey Grip (Large/Powerful Build)
Damage Increase from Power Attack (-2 penalty)


1d6, One-Handed
+1
+2.5
+2


1d8, One-Handed
+2.5
+2.5
+2


1d10, One-Handed
+3.5
+4.5
+2


1d12, One-Handed
+4
+3.5
+2


1d8, Two-Handed
+2.5
+3.5
+4


2d4, Two-Handed
+2
+2.5
+4


1d10, Two-Handed
+3.5
+4.5
+4


2d6, Two-Handed
+3.5
+3.5
+4



Huh. Not what I was expecting. One-handed weapons with a d10 damage die get a lot of mileage out of Monkey Grip, and can all be used via Oversized TWF. General conclusion from the table:

1. Monkey Grip is only better than Power Attack on a medium one-handed weapon if you invest the feat for proficiency in Warmaces, but is always better with a Large one-handed weapon, especially Dwarven Waraxes, Bastard Swords, Mauls, and other one-handed weapons that deal 1d10 at medium-size.

2. On two-handed weapons, Power Attack is better than Monkey Grip in all cases except that of Large two-handed weapons that deal 1d10 at medium size, but in that case is only worse by 0.5 points of damage, which is hardly enough of a difference to be worth a feat.

3. When Leap Attack is in play, Power Attack with one-handed weapons is better in all cases other than d10 or d12 weapons (dependent on weapon size), and with two-handed weapons Power Attack is always better than Monkey Grip.

Moral of the story: Oversized TWF + Powerful Build + Monkey Grip = better than Power Attack for non-charging TWFers.

[georgie_leech]

That assumes that - 2 for Power Attack, which isn't always what you want to do though. Sometimes not Power Attacking at all is the best choice, sometimes you get a great opportunity to just unload. Further, it's comparing three feats to one; even just bumping it up to two feats, a bog-standard Weapon Focus bumps up the damage at equivalent penalty to 3, and if we go the full Improved Bull Rush and Power Attack into Shock Trooper (also 3 feats), all bets are off.

[Extra Anchovies]

That assumes that - 2 for Power Attack, which isn't always what you want to do though. Sometimes not Power Attacking at all is the best choice, sometimes you get a great opportunity to just unload. Further, it's comparing three feats to one; even just bumping it up to two feats, a bog-standard Weapon Focus bumps up the damage at equivalent penalty to 3, and if we go the full Improved Bull Rush and Power Attack into Shock Trooper (also 3 feats), all bets are off.

I set the Power Attack penalty to -2 so that it equals with the -2 from Monkey Grip (thus, the table considers which of Monkey Grip or Power Attack is a better use of 2 points of your attack bonus). Thus, it's less of "Power Attack for 2" than it is "Power Attack for 2 more than you otherwise would". The absolute damage differences remain the same if our Monkey Gripper PAs for 1 while the non-Monkey Gripper PAs for 3, but the relative damage differences slowly become more and more equal as the PA amount increases.

Your other points, however, are valid. OTWF + MG is indeed more feat-intensive than PA, and Shock Trooper and/or the multipliers give Power Attack the advantage.

[Val666]

Im just...confused..

[Extra Anchovies]

Im just...confused..

Optimization involves a lot of math regardless of what class you're playing. The only difference between martials and casters is the scale: a martial will compare an average value of 3.5 to a consistent 4, while a caster is figuring out how much energy is released by the spontaneous generation of one 10-foot cube of electrons.

Anyways, to summarize my table-post: Monkey Grip is only noticeably better on one-handed d10 weapons when you have powerful build, or on one-handed d12 weapons when you do not.

[Darrin]

Im just...confused..

Yeah, Monkey Grip will do that.

Could you be more specific? What's your build look like so far?

[Val666]

Actually that build died :c I told my dm that I could fill any party roll missing. So...now im the rogue/assassin. Just started another threat about that. If you guys hve any suggestion ._. I would appreciate them. The concept I wanted was: Step out from shadows, deal one single big blow and back into shadows. Any idea :v?

[Chronos]

Monkey Grip doesn't stack with Powerful Build. Both reference your size, not the size of weapons you wield, so either one separately or both together let you wield a weapon one size bigger than you.