I need help with summon monster

[AsheItachi]

In the game i'm running there are T-rex's everywhere now, both the wizard and the cleric are summoning them up. And i'm honestly having a hard time enjoying dming against a group with T-rex monsters everywhere.

Im looking for some help not on the usual stuff like put them in situations where t-rexs won't fit. And all that I'm wanting to know how you play them out. Like do you let the PCs control them with their own intelligence or do you control them as DM? He took the trait that lets him summon as a standard action to and has a metamagic rod so 2 summons 1 round is kinda wanky.

Also anyone have any links to some really good balanced homebrew rules to the spell?

[Prince Raven]

Summoned monsters are under GM control and will "attack your opponents to the best of its ability". If the PCs want to have some degree of control them they must either be capable of communicating with them or use the Handle Animal skill.

Enemy spellcaster can have spells like Protection From [Alignment] and Dismissal to deal with summoned creatures.

[Oudyn]

T-Rexes? That's awesome. More seriously, are dinosaurs extinct in your setting? If so, bar them from being summoned. If you need further justification, say that they're rapidly using up all the T-Rexes left in the universe and pretty soon there won't be any more. Simple enough, really. Just rule that when a summon dies, it's actually dead. Then keep count of all the T-Rexes that've died. Alternatively, face them against enemies who control their summons, like Rangers or Enchanters. That way, the bigger their summons, the bigger the risk that a failed save implies. Or let their enemies summon them. Then you can have :smallcool: T-REX WARS! But, yeah. Ignore that last part.

[AsheItachi]

Thanks thats a few good ideas and suggestions. I do have to keep them alive ATM to think they went randomly extinct is kinda meh.

I would love some ideas on how to keep it from getting out of control. i.e. like having only 1 set of monsters from each level of spell. Or when you summon its random like in 2nd edition

[Urpriest]

Note that they're probably summoning Fiendish T-Rexes, which are intelligent and speak a language.

[Oudyn]

Note that they're probably summoning Fiendish T-Rexes, which are intelligent and speak a language.

That is actually a very good point. However, like any fiends, I'd wager they hate to be enslaved. Thus, if control is broken, which enemy casters would logically do, provided knowledge of fiends, the T-Rexes would either just leave or attack their summoners. Also, to combat them randomly going extinct, try warning your players that they're endangered. If they keep using them, hey, you warned them. Eventually, they won't be there any more.

[Urpriest]

That is actually a very good point. However, like any fiends, I'd wager they hate to be enslaved. Thus, if control is broken, which enemy casters would logically do, provided knowledge of fiends, the T-Rexes would either just leave or attack their summoners. Also, to combat them randomly going extinct, try warning your players that they're endangered. If they keep using them, hey, you warned them. Eventually, they won't be there any more.

Is there a spell that breaks control of summoned creatures in PF? Sounds very specific.

Also, summoned creatures don't permanently die, so...

[Oudyn]

Is there a spell that breaks control of summoned creatures in PF? Sounds very specific.

Also, summoned creatures don't permanently die, so...

Very true. I was suggesting he could houserule that. As to a spell that did that, I knew there was one in 3.5. Break enchantment or dispel magic could do it, I think. As to PF specifically, they might have changed that function. I play Pathfinder but I still get 3.5 rules mixed up with PF ones accidentally.

[AsheItachi]

Note that they're probably summoning Fiendish T-Rexes, which are intelligent and speak a language.

There are not summoning fiendish T-Rex. Regardless. How many commands can you give in a round ? I mean speaking is a free action but how much can you say ?

[AsheItachi]

Is there a spell that breaks control of summoned creatures in PF? Sounds very specific.

Also, summoned creatures don't permanently die, so...

Dispel Magic can. And control summoned creature (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/control-summoned-creature).

[Prince Raven]

There are not summoning fiendish T-Rex. Regardless. How many commands can you give in a round ? I mean speaking is a free action but how much can you say ?

If they're intelligent T-rexes and share a language with the PC controlling them it's a free action, and there isn't a limit to the number of free actions (but I do recommend restricting them to short commands, a round is only 6 seconds after all). To use Handle Animal normally it's a move action, but to push the creature to do something it normally wouldn't is a full round action.

[Raphite1]

I'm so confused by this thread.


There are not summoning fiendish T-Rex.

So they're summoning celestial Tyrannosaurs? They have to be either fiendish or celestial.


Note that they're probably summoning Fiendish T-Rexes, which are intelligent and speak a language.

Where is the rule that fiendish creatures get an Int boost and can speak a language? The fiendish template linked from the Summon Monster spell provides no such thing.

Their enemies aren't using Dispel Magic? Summoning a tyrannosaur is a seventh level spell, so your players must be fairly high level, and facing enemies with access to that magic.

[AsheItachi]

I'm so confused by this thread.



So they're summoning celestial Tyrannosaurs? They have to be either fiendish or celestial.



Where is the rule that fiendish creatures get an Int boost and can speak a language? The fiendish template linked from the Summon Monster spell provides no such thing.

Their enemies aren't using Dispel Magic? Summoning a tyrannosaur is a seventh level spell, so your players must be fairly high level, and facing enemies with access to that magic.

They have to be summoned with a template? I thought that was optional not mandatory?

[Raphite1]

They have to be summoned with a template? I thought that was optional not mandatory?

The creatures with an asterisk have "This creature is summoned with the celestial template if you are good, or the fiendish template if you are evil; you may choose either if you are neutral." I read that as being non-optional, even for neutral casters.

Edit: I also don't understand why dinosaur extinction in the material plane would be an issue, since summoned creatures come from other planes.

[Abd al-Azrad]

I concur with Raphite1.

"Creatures on Table: Summon Monster (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic/all-spells/s/summon-monster) marked with an "*" are summoned with the celestial template, if you are good, and the fiendish template, if you are evil. If you are neutral, you may choose which template to apply to the creature."

This does include the Tyrannosaurus, as well as dozens of other monsters which typically have animal-level intelligence.

You need only a first-level spell (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/magic/all-spells/p/protection-from-evil) to counter summoning tricks, but higher-level iterations (Protection from Alignment, Communal, or Magic Circle against Alignment) will save your foes action economy. It would probably be best to cast these spells in response to the PCs starting their summoning, to make sure that your casters match the alignment of the summoned monsters and are, therefore, protected from their natural attacks.

Do note that the Protection from X tactic is itself counter-able, either through dispelling, clever selection of summoned creature alignments, summoning armed creatures or those with oodles of SR, etc. This means that your PCs will not necessarily be penalized for their power, only that they will have to be more intelligent and adaptable in its use - which I hope will make things more fun for everyone involved.

[AsheItachi]

I never knew they were all extraplanar .... its like in the first sentence .... jesus .. then my mages would have been casting Dismissal (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/dismissal.html) this whole time ....

[Milo v3]

Why are people saying that Dispel Magic makes the conjured creatures go uncontrolled? :smallconfused:
It dispels the summoned creature.

[Oudyn]

Why are people saying that Dispel Magic makes the conjured creatures go uncontrolled? :smallconfused:
It dispels the summoned creature.

IIRC, the 3.5 version made it go uncontrolled, though I could be wrong.

[Urpriest]

IIRC, the 3.5 version made it go uncontrolled, though I could be wrong.

No, that's never been the case. It wouldn't make any sense, given how summon monster works.

Are you under the impression that summoning a monster actually brings a creature in from another plane, like if someone had cast plane shift on it? If so, someone did a really terrible job of explaining the summon monster spell to you.

[Psyren]

IIRC, the 3.5 version made it go uncontrolled, though I could be wrong.

No, dispelling a summoned creature sends it back where it came from. It does not let it stick around uncontrolled.

[Oudyn]

Interesting. Maybe I'm remembering wrong. It's been a long time. Though, I thought I remembered there being some way... Though it's irrelevant now. I stand corrected.

[Barstro]

In the game i'm running there are T-rex's everywhere now, both the wizard and the cleric are summoning them up. And i'm honestly having a hard time enjoying dming against a group with T-rex monsters everywhere.

Im looking for some help not on the usual stuff like put them in situations where t-rexs won't fit. And all that I'm wanting to know how you play them out. Like do you let the PCs control them with their own intelligence or do you control them as DM? He took the trait that lets him summon as a standard action to and has a metamagic rod so 2 summons 1 round is kinda wanky.

Also anyone have any links to some really good balanced homebrew rules to the spell?

The way to deal with any spellcaster like this is simple;
More encounters per day.

They have only a limited number of spells. Once they use them, they are done.

Other flavors of the same theme;
Smaller encounters so that summoning is just wasteful.
Enemies that are capable of fleeing for rounds/lvl and then returning
Dispell
Protection from ___
AMF
Pathfinder has a spell that causes the summoner to take the damage that the summoned takes. Quick way to take out a spellcaster.

[Psyren]

Dispelling and counterspelling are great tactics for NPCs. It harms spellcasters without hurting martials, and it's not like that cultist has to plan on having 4 more encounters that day.

[Raphite1]

Are you under the impression that summoning a monster actually brings a creature in from another plane, like if someone had cast plane shift on it? If so, someone did a really terrible job of explaining the summon monster spell to you.

Summon Monster:
"This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane)."

Where are you summoning this extraplanar creature from, if not from another plane?

[Milo v3]

Summon Monster:
"This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane)."

Where are you summoning this extraplanar creature from, if not from another plane?

iirc Complete Mage suggests the idea that they are fake creatures brought into existance only for the duration of the summoning and never existed on any plane before you summoned them.

[Raphite1]

iirc Complete Mage suggests the idea that they are fake creatures brought into existance only for the duration of the summoning and never existed on any plane before you summoned them.

I don't have Complete Mage to reference, but that makes sense given their behavior, and the ability to access them as early as level 1.

[Khedrac]

Add in that without Rapid Spell or similar Summon spells are all casting time "1 full round" - and it should be the practice of everyone with int 4 or higher to target anyone who doesn't finish casting a spell in their own round - it always means the spell is powerful and really needs to be interrupted. PCs use this rule too so it's not unfair - it is common sense.
Then, if they have the Concentration skill to keep casting through most minor hits, it is time to send in the squad of Steel Devils. So they are not that tough against high level opponents - they still raise all Concentration Check DCs no save, so antagonists that know about the PCs will try to arrange for them in advance.

If they are using Rapid Spell then an Archer with decent 1-shot damage (such as a scout) who readies to interrupt casters becomes useful.

[Urpriest]

Summon Monster:
"This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane)."

Where are you summoning this extraplanar creature from, if not from another plane?

The key is "as if you had just cast plane shift on it".

It's not literally brought to you from another plane like it would be from a calling or teleportation spell. It's summoned, which is a specific keyword, and while the fluff of summoning is that summoned creatures are brought from another plane, the best way to remember the crunch is to think of the summoned creatures as conjured on the spot. They can be dispelled, and they wink out in an AMF. The death of a summoned creature has no effect on the "original", and since barring variants you're always summoning a generic creature you will never meet a creature that remembers being summoned by you. It also fully obeys your commands.

Basically, while you are indeed bringing something in from another plane, the first time you use the spell your DM explains that it's easier to understand how it works if you think about it as conjuring a creature out of magic. Unless you've got a rather negligent DM, this is how you learn how summoning works.

[AsheItachi]

Add in that without Rapid Spell or similar Summon spells are all casting time "1 full round" - and it should be the practice of everyone with int 4 or higher to target anyone who doesn't finish casting a spell in their own round - it always means the spell is powerful and really needs to be interrupted. PCs use this rule too so it's not unfair - it is common sense.
Then, if they have the Concentration skill to keep casting through most minor hits, it is time to send in the squad of Steel Devils. So they are not that tough against high level opponents - they still raise all Concentration Check DCs no save, so antagonists that know about the PCs will try to arrange for them in advance.

If they are using Rapid Spell then an Archer with decent 1-shot damage (such as a scout) who readies to interrupt casters becomes useful.

If a archer readies an action to hit a spell caster when they start casting, Even if they are casting a standard action spell would this still count and interrupt there spell casting?



t's not literally brought to you from another plane like it would be from a calling or teleportation spell. It's summoned, which is a specific keyword, and while the fluff of summoning is that summoned creatures are brought from another plane, the best way to remember the crunch is to think of the summoned creatures as conjured on the spot. They can be dispelled, and they wink out in an AMF. The death of a summoned creature has no effect on the "original", and since barring variants you're always summoning a generic creature you will never meet a creature that remembers being summoned by you. It also fully obeys your commands.

Basically, while you are indeed bringing something in from another plane, the first time you use the spell your DM explains that it's easier to understand how it works if you think about it as conjuring a creature out of magic. Unless you've got a rather negligent DM, this is how you learn how summoning works.

This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-monster)

The spell specifically states it does. This creature isn't created by magic like pieced together one the spot to your whims and desires as such with the eidolon.

Summoning: a summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from (This is under conjuration magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Conjuration))
So the creature specifically comes from somewhere

With this I have come to understand that Its randomly brought from another plane of existence , giving you ALOT of liberties. Where is it coming from? What was it doing? Does it have SLA? Maybe its used some, Maybe its already hurt. Hell maybe its got a laser strapped to its back and part machine.

Because if not. Then your characters are summoning random monsters that probably never existed on your world , how do they know about them ? How could they exist?


The way to deal with any spellcaster like this is simple;
More encounters per day.

They have only a limited number of spells. Once they use them, they are done.

The problem with this is im running a style of game that Is straight kick in the door very hard encounters then they level. Its just combat for practice with playstyles. So there isnt alot of small random encounters.

[Urpriest]

If a archer readies an action to hit a spell caster when they start casting, Even if they are casting a standard action spell would this still count and interrupt there spell casting?

Yup.




This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-monster)

The spell specifically states it does. This creature isn't created by magic like pieced together one the spot to your whims and desires as such with the eidolon.

Summoning: a summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from (This is under conjuration magic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Conjuration))
So the creature specifically comes from somewhere

With this I have come to understand that Its randomly brought from another plane of existence , giving you ALOT of liberties. Where is it coming from? What was it doing? Does it have SLA? Maybe its used some, Maybe its already hurt. Hell maybe its got a laser strapped to its back and part machine.

Because if not. Then your characters are summoning random monsters that probably never existed on your world , how do they know about them ? How could they exist?


Read the sentence of my post that you cut off in your quote. It's not bringing the creature in the same sense as a plane shift or calling spell.

And since it's typical of its kind, it doesn't have any spent SLAs, or injuries, or cybernetics. You get the creature listed in the spell and depicted in the monster manual, nothing more or less. Anything else would need to be referred to by a different table entry.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Wait, there's a trait that makes summoning a standard action? What's it called? (wipes drool off desk)

[arkangel111]

Arcanist and wizards have easy ways to deal with this.

For the wizard - Conjuration - infernal binder sub-school lets you steal summons.
Same for the Arcanist but you have to grab school understanding with your exploit and it will burn through your resevoir quick (not a big deal for NPC's)
Arcanist also has the greater exploit spell thief which is far superior but you have to be 11th level I think.

Edit: Also there was a alternate summons type ability that I have always wanted to put in one of my games. Effectively you always summon the same creatures, therefore you could potentially give them items and when they are summoned they retain the items. It had a clause that if it died while on the material plane it couldn't be summoned for 24 hours. You could use that and combine it with: it arrives with previous hit points, having it reset every 24 hours if you want. Can't remember what the source is for this type of summons, it might be PF but either ways its an optional houserule and will work with either system.

[Oneris]

Wait, there's a trait that makes summoning a standard action? What's it called? (wipes drool off desk)

Acadamae Graduate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/local-feats/acadamae-graduate-local-1) from Curse of the Crimson Throne
There is some fluff trouble if you use it exactly as intended, because by RAW the Acadamae doesn't let anyone actually graduate until they hit level 15 or so.

[AsheItachi]

Wait, there's a trait that makes summoning a standard action? What's it called? (wipes drool off desk)

Its a feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/local-feats/acadamae-graduate-local-1) my bad


It's not literally brought to you from another plane like it would be from a calling or teleportation spell. It's summoned, which is a specific keyword, and while the fluff of summoning is that summoned creatures are brought from another plane, the best way to remember the crunch is to think of the summoned creatures as conjured on the spot.
I covered this with my entry from the conjuration magic description. It says it brings the creature from somewhere and sends it back to said place.


They can be dispelled, and they wink out in an AMF. The death of a summoned creature has no effect on the "original", and since barring variants you're always summoning a generic creature you will never meet a creature that remembers being summoned by you. It also fully obeys your commands.

Magic can dispel them because they are here temporarily by magic. The magic is not dispelling the creature its self its dispelling the anchor holding them to this plane. And it never states your summoning a generic, like creature some blank slate.


Basically, while you are indeed bringing something in from another plane, the first time you use the spell your DM explains that it's easier to understand how it works if you think about it as conjuring a creature out of magic. Unless you've got a rather negligent DM, this is how you learn how summoning works.

We both are interpreting it differently. And my thoughts since if how i interpret it is it comes from somewhere my fluff would be they could be hurt and have missing SLA's and what not.


A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again, so obviously it has to come from somewhere

[Urpriest]

I covered this with my entry from the conjuration magic description. It says it brings the creature from somewhere and sends it back to said place.

Which says nothing about whether that is the best way to remember the mechanics of the spell, which is what the post you're claiming to refute is about.




Magic can dispel them because they are here temporarily by magic. The magic is not dispelling the creature its self its dispelling the anchor holding them to this plane. And it never states your summoning a generic, like creature some blank slate.

As above. Also, you summon a generic creature because the only thing the spell tells you about the creature is its Monster Manual name. Much like Wild Cohort, you must either assume it's restricted to the generic creature of that name presented in the book, or allow any modified version of that creature, including class levels, Paragon, etc. While you may assume that that power defaults to the DM, in fact the spell says nothing about who chooses or how they do so. It's not explicitly random, it's not explicitly DM's choice, and it's not explicitly player's choice. RAW, by your interpretation, the spell simply does not have enough information to be used in a game.




We both are interpreting it differently. And my thoughts since if how i interpret it is it comes from somewhere my fluff would be they could be hurt and have missing SLA's and what not.

At which point the player you're explaining this to would assume that it would obey all of the other reasonable assumptions of a creature brought from another plane, which would be really annoying because all of the rest of said assumptions are wrong. So in practice you wouldn't explain the spell to a new player in this way.




A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again, so obviously it has to come from somewhere

That much is a valid point. It's true, they probably wouldn't have included that if there wasn't a chance to interact with the monsters in the wild.