optimized anti-caster build

[sjeshin]

I'm trying to make a build that uses several of the abilities that give bonuses to saves (think evil paladin and blackguard, different abilities and untyped bonuses) with mettle and evasion. I'm looking for more classes that grant charisma bonuses to saves and / or mettle and evasion as well as always full BAB.

So far I have hexblade or pious templar for mettle.
Paladin of tyranny, hexblade, and blackguard for charisma bonus to all saves.
Lastly I have only found master thrower as a full BAB source for evasion.

I'd really like to ditch master thrower for evasion without losing full BAB. Also any more non-evil charisma to saves besides paladin? And lastly some good anticaster feats? All 3.5 sources usable. I don't want items for any of these abilities. Thanks in advance guys.

[Kraken]

You might look into witch slayer from Tome of Magic. It grants mettle and a targeted antimagic ability.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Don't get overmuch hung up on Full BAB. You can afford to lose a point or four if it's for good abilities such as evasion, mettle, or dispelling capability. Monk 2 gets some very nice bonuses; a couple feats, evasion, all good saves; all in all a nice package for just a point of BAB and maybe 2 to 4 hp's.

Rogue can get you some skill points, a little sneak attack, trapfinding, and evasion but it'll cost a few more HP's than the monk option and some weaker saves.

[eggynack]

What you're going for is helpful, but really not enough. Some spells target saves, but some very much do not target saves, and the latter can be very dangerous. If your anti-caster needs to be mundane, then I'd advise a character optimized for stealth, using darkstalker. It is a difficult, but not impossible, trick for casters to bypass, and if you can sneak in that one good hit, it could be enough.

If your anti-caster does not need to be mundane, then make them not mundane. Clerics tend to be good at this sort of thing, perhaps optimized for dispel magic at the low end, and perhaps pushing things with initiate of mystra combined with your own AMF at the high end. Just about any full caster can pull it off though, by merit of spells being awesome.

[nothingforyou]

An optimized anti-caster might benefit being a cleric/crusader/ruby knight vindicator with initiate of mystra (feat), then run around AMFd up.

Nevermind, I have no contribution.

[Astralia123]

What level are you aiming at?

The best way to work against a caster is being a caster focused on that yourself. If you are interested in this and aim at around 10th level, then Suel Arcanamach is the thing for you. So is the Mystic Fire Knight substitute levels for paladin, with Sword of the Arcane Order feat you are going to be an almost-full bab wizard, or a paladin with considerably high caster levels and can cast from wizard spellbook.

The second-best way is to counter or dispel their spells. A substitute class feature for cleric/paladin in Complete Mage allows you to counterspell as if casting dispel magic, but you lose turn/rebuke undead. If you are playing above 15th level, then paladin is the best choice for you, and when you acquire Holy Avenger you are going to be feared by evil casters.
Complete Champion, Book of Exalted Deeds and Complete Arcane and other books have a lot of ways to enhance a paladin devoted to counter evil casters.

There is also the Occult Slayer PrC and Mage Slayer feat, but it is really good when you are already in melee with a spellcaster, and thus is a worse choice than the former 2 options. The Mage Slayer feat chain provides some advantage against casters in melee but prevents you from becoming a caster yourself.



And there is the way you are aiming at, is to focus on enhancing your saves and resistances against spells. All the previous books mentioned provide a lot of ways to do this, but I don't believe this can be called "optimised".

[Kelb_Panthera]

Eggy's not wrong. One of the majorly important details of mage hunting is catching the bastards by surprise, an increasingly difficult task as your level rises. Darkstalker and some good stealth skills are a very good idea.

The strong saves and ability to ignore partial effects is for when the stealth fails and you have to fight on terms less slanted in your favor.

On the evasion thing; have you considered a ring of evasion?

[Jeff the Green]

How much do you object to a bit of magic? At some point you're going to want to become Vecna-blooded, which requires the ability to cast 2nd-level spells (acquirable through a dip at level 1 and a feat). Granted, your character won't want to, but it's going to be necessary when the caster you killed is brought back to life and decides to ring up a god to figure out who you are so he can exact his vengeance.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How much do you object to a bit of magic? At some point you're going to want to become Vecna-blooded, which requires the ability to cast 2nd-level spells (acquirable through a dip at level 1 and a feat). Granted, your character won't want to, but it's going to be necessary when the caster you killed is brought back to life and decides to ring up a god to figure out who you are so he can exact his vengeance.

I don't know about that. Except in some pretty high op games a foe that's dead usually stays that way. Even then, however, a third eye conceal is an item well worth the investment and, in fact, better than vecna-blooded anyway.

[Jeff the Green]

I don't know about that. Except in some pretty high op games a foe that's dead usually stays that way.

Really? :smallconfused: It doesn't require high-op to arrange for (true) resurrection.


Even then, however, a third eye conceal is an item well worth the investment and, in fact, better than vecna-blooded anyway.

Worth the investment, maybe. Better than Vecna-blooded, only with an extremely wide reading of mind blank. Vecna-blooded removes all information about you from everyone's minds and all other sources of information forever, and tells you who is trying to find you. While mind blank might foil things like commune or contact other plane (and is implied not to), Vecna-blooded absolutely does.

[Boci]

Worth the investment, maybe. Better than Vecna-blooded, only with an extremely wide reading of mind blank. Vecna-blooded removes all information about you from everyone's minds and all other sources of information forever, and tells you who is trying to find you. While mind blank might foil things like commune or contact other plane (and is implied not to), Vecna-blooded absolutely does.

Vecna blooded is foiled by supernatural divination affects. Pretty narrow weakness, but one all the same.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Really? :smallconfused: It doesn't require high-op to arrange for (true) resurrection.

Higher than you'd think. You can either find a 17th level cleric who you're willing to trust and can find out if and when you'd been killed or you can jump through some ice assassin/ contingency /minion with item hoops to get it done that way. Either way you have to think of it first and that mind-set tends to come from high-op players and DM's.


Worth the investment, maybe. Better than Vecna-blooded, only with an extremely wide reading of mind blank. Vecna-blooded removes all information about you from everyone's minds and all other sources of information forever, and tells you who is trying to find you. While mind blank might foil things like commune or contact other plane (and is implied not to), Vecna-blooded absolutely does.

The problem is that vecna blooded only blocks divination effects that target you specifically while mind blank blocks any and all effects intended to glean information about you. The expunging of knowledge of your existence prior to becoming vecna blooded is nice but largely irrelevant. Where you are now and where you're going are much more important than where you've been. There's also that niggling little detail of solving the seven riddles of Vecna.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Vecna-blooded is also foiled by Wish, Limited Wish and Miracle used to replicate Divination effects because Miracle is Evocation and the other two are Universal. Also, Vecna-blooded will not affect stores of information specifically protected against this sort of thing, such as two books that separately contain no info but when read together do (they're obviously separately stored). Because the clerics of Boccob always wanted to stick it to Vecna and stuff.


Arranging for your own ressurection in theory only takes Planar Binding + Geas on an Efreet. That's lvl 11. This is why everyone and their mother who hunts wizards uses Thinaun weapons that prevent ressurrection.

[ranagrande]

It'll cost you a hefty +7 LA, but the Monster of Legend could be good for this with its permanent spell turning.

[Azoth]

Another thing to look into is raising your Touch AC. Having saves through the roof is one thing, but not every caster specializes in SoD. Some like to just smash your Touch AC mailman style.

Most others will point of damage needing to be one hit one kill level, because a caster that is allowed to act is a caster that WILL survive.

Should you have to deal with an escaping caster, and not one Baator bent on killing you, then you need to be able to follow him. This at the very least means knowing where he went. The easiest mundane way to do this is with a high survival check and the feat Astral Tracking from Dragon Compendium.

Next up, protecting your gear and buffs. Dispels suck. The cheapest solution as a mundane is paying 6k and making your weapon a spell blade. This lets you key it to one spell and it will absorb it instead of letting it take effect. Bonus: free action next round to fire it off at someone else. Obviously, abjuration has WAY too many spells to do this for all forms of dispell, but dump 18k to protect against dispel magic, greater dispell magic, and disjunction.

[emeraldstreak]

Bloodhound can act before any caster.


A popular touch AC combo is Otherworldly -> Alter Self -> Dwarven Ancestor -> Scintillating Scales for 18 deflection.


PS. A bit more complex version I've seen is Alter Self-ing twice, first into a Human whose racial bonus feat is expended on Otherworldly, than as above with a second Alter Self.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Bloodhound can act before any caster.

He's got a better shot than most but a well phrased contingency can still get the caster ahead.

[eggynack]

Bloodhound can act before any caster.

Looks like a reasonable thing, but I think there are ways around it. As Kelb noted, contingency is a thing, and as I'm noting now, there's also stuff like dire tortoise form, or foresight+celerity.

[Jeff the Green]

Huh. Well, that'll teach me to not look up the wording before I spout off about something. Vecna-blooded is still worth considering since mind-blank comes online so late.

[nothingforyou]

A mage-hunter wants the wondrous item cowl of warding (MoF, Pg. 156), which acts as mind blank and freedom of movement, as well as 6 levels of spell turning.

[Azoth]

Eh if you take 4 levels in occult slayer you get spell turning 2/day. Should be enough for the standard adventuring day really. Not saying the cowl isn't nice, but might be redundant.

Now he does need to find ways to become immune to alot of different magic. I know that Soulfire (+4) armor enchantment will protect him from alot of the nastier debuffs found in necromancy. I think it is a +4 armor enchant, but proof against transmutation will make you immune to transmutation spells unless you want them to affect you.

Finishing up occult slayer will make you immune to mind affecting abilities and put you under a permanent non detection, so that helps as well.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Eh if you take 4 levels in occult slayer you get spell turning 2/day. Should be enough for the standard adventuring day really. Not saying the cowl isn't nice, but might be redundant.

Now he does need to find ways to become immune to alot of different magic. I know that Soulfire (+4) armor enchantment will protect him from alot of the nastier debuffs found in necromancy. I think it is a +4 armor enchant, but proof against transmutation will make you immune to transmutation spells unless you want them to affect you.

Finishing up occult slayer will make you immune to mind affecting abilities and put you under a permanent non detection, so that helps as well.

There are simply too many things any spellcaster can do to even try to be immune to all of it. That's why you go for the saves and ignore partials abilities. Better a chance to ignore any SoL than immunity to the wrong one.

That said, there are some things that you really do need to be able to outright ignore or at least counter because they're instant wins for the caster. Paralysis, petrification, and death effects come quickly to mind.

As an option, albeit a difficult and expensive one, you can try to find out what spells your current target favors and get immunity to those, then trade out the items that grant those immunities for the ones that help with the next target. Gathering that information, especially without magic as that would likely earn the caster's attention, will be a slow and expenssive process but I strongly advise it since you'll want every advantage you can get.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Immunities by item for the important stuff;

+1 soulfire transmutation-proof armor: most transmutation, most necromancy.
Cowl of Warding: enchantment, divination.
Starmantle Cloak: nonmagical attacks and projectiles, such as conjured or telekinetically thrown ones.
Ring of Evasion and Free Action: many area evocations, movement restrictions
Periapt of Adaptation: poison, being drowned or suffocated, cloudkill and other gases.
Luckblades/luckstones: rerolling natural 1's vs Disjunction
Nonmagical Trenchcoat/hood/gloves: not leaving your worn magic items open to targeted dispels, looking badass

[Petrocorus]

I'm trying to make a build that uses several of the abilities that give bonuses to saves (think evil paladin and blackguard, different abilities and untyped bonuses) with mettle and evasion. I'm looking for more classes that grant charisma bonuses to saves and / or mettle and evasion as well as always full BAB.

So far I have hexblade or pious templar for mettle.
Paladin of tyranny, hexblade, and blackguard for charisma bonus to all saves.
Lastly I have only found master thrower as a full BAB source for evasion.

I'd really like to ditch master thrower for evasion without losing full BAB. Also any more non-evil charisma to saves besides paladin? And lastly some good anticaster feats? All 3.5 sources usable. I don't want items for any of these abilities. Thanks in advance guys.

Shadow Template gives you Evasion.

Don't forget Prestige Paladin for Divine Grace. Master of Yuirwood also has it.

The Battle Dancer class from DragMag gives Cha to unarmored AC, might be useful against ranged touch attack. It's similar to the Monk's AC bonus, so why not a Battle dancer's belt.

[Azoth]

If you can enchant your weapon with custom enchantments from specific weapons, then Lethe's Lash from the Planar Handbook is fun. For 20k your weapon would cause the caster to lose a spell of his highest level castable every time you hit. Downside is that they get to pick which spell, but I am pretty sure that we can get you enough solid attacks in a round to remove an entire spell level in a full attack sequence.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You might want to consider getting a weapon made of bronzewood (either ECS or MoE, IIRC) to prevent ironguard from shutting you down.

[Petrocorus]

A ranger dip can gives you Arcane Hunter ACF, a trapfinding ACF and there's maybe a counter-magic ACF somewhere too.

[Azoth]

Arcane Hunter lets you nab the Nemesis feat so you can pin point any arcane caster within 60ft of you regardless of vision or barriers. Pretty nice trick.

[Astralia123]

You possibly want to have something that transports you a short distant. I'm sure something in MIC will do it, and so is a level in wizard. Immediate Magic for conjurer in PHB2 would help you a lot, even in the cases where you meet another conjurer with Immediate Magic.

Note it does not work well with Mage Slayer feat, which reduces your spell-like ability caster level.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You possibly want to have something that transports you a short distant. I'm sure something in MIC will do it.

Like anklets of translocation?:smallcool: