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Grug
2007-03-22, 09:23 PM
Ok, i DM a game for currently 3rd level characters. They've just done a non-descript dungeons and are returning to town. When they get there I plan for a pair of Large Green Dragons to land in town and demand tribute. One is killed and the other is wounded (down to half HP) by a highlevel NPC who doesn't want dragon's as oppressing rivals. The remaining dragon flees, and the party is encouraged to track it down while it's hp is low and kill it.

My problem: Is this encounter too hard? The CR of the dragon is normall 7, but i figure having half HP would lower that at least by 1. If needed I can also have the party gain another level before triggering the event. I have a problem with giving out enough treasure too, and one of my players won't stop bugging me about how they're underpowered without enough treasure. I was hoping to stop his whining with a double dragon hoard, but without much gear will they be able to actually survive the challenge? Do I add another dungeon before hand to provide treasure at the expense of weakening the thrill of a dragon hoard?

The party consist of a fighter (+1 sword and board), a Healer Cleric (Flaming Heavy Mace and Fullplate), a rogue (with, well, nothing), a swashbuckler (masterwork rapier) and a Warlock (a couple scrolls, nothing fancy though). All of them are level 3

As of right now, I'm not going to give them any bonus treasure yet, no matter how much the fighter whines. Then, if they can overcome the deadly dragon, i'll put in lots and lots of treasure, more than they would need, plus an extra level to. It would be good to mark the occasion because after the dragons is when the real plot begins.

As a final question, is it possible to make a flaming mace without it having a +1 enchantment?

Stormcrow
2007-03-22, 09:43 PM
They can survive that fight if your reserved with your use of breath weapon attacks i think.

And under the rules in Magic Item Compendium I think yes you can.

Lord_Kimboat
2007-03-22, 09:45 PM
I'd say follow your instincts more than the CRs. Remember, you know your group and the people who wrote the CRs in the MM were just basing it on generic power. If you think your party can take it, let them - just remember that you toned it down a little when rewarding them with xp.

As for the mace (or any other weapon), it needs to be at least +1 before any special feature can be placed on it (flaming, frost, etc.). However, remember that you are the DM and can change these rules too if you really want to.

Dorni
2007-03-22, 10:00 PM
To a large extent, I think it depends on the players. If they have faced dragons before, they can probably pull it off. If they have no experience with anti-dragon tactics, then I'd wait a few levels or make it a large dragon (killed by the npc) with a younger dragon as the sidekick.

The breath weapon would be my biggest concern. At level 3, the PCs arn't going to have a huge well of HP themselves and one breath weapon that manages to catch them all will devestate the group. If either the breath weapon is limited (or simply not used) or the PCs spread themselves out, then I think the encounter is do-able, albiet not easy. Still, you may need to look at the PCs and decide if you need to take a few points off the AC - even if the dragon is wounded, that doesn't help the PCs if they can't hit the creature.

ocato
2007-03-22, 10:29 PM
L3 fighter is complaining because he only has a +1 sword? Based on what you mentioned, he is probably low on the new items totem pole. As for dragons, you can take the NPC vs dragons "cut scene" and use that to your advantage. You could wound the dragon's wing, making it difficult to fly, or perhaps a near fatal neck wound that limits or weakens its breath weapon would be in order. Infact, killing one outright and then slashing heavily at the other's neck would be a good reason for them to flee and would make sending some lower cohorts (ie, your PCs) to seal the deal.

I'd be weary about dishing out too much super loot after this, it will effect your campaign in a way that might frustrate you. I try to give out goodies based on intelligence. If the party is smart enough to play tactically without a huge advantage, then they're probably good for some toys. If they can't win regular fights without that +3 holy mace of lollerskates, don't reward foolishness.

marjan
2007-03-22, 10:34 PM
If the party is smart enough to play tactically without a huge advantage, then they're probably good for some toys. If they can't win regular fights without that +3 holy mace of lollerskates, don't reward foolishness.


You know that if you do this they will have less wealth then expected for their level. So if the players aren't good at tactics they have to suffer because of lack of equipment too? That seems like crippling players.

On topic: Be aware that dragons tend to be tougher than most monsters of their CR especialy when the players don't know how to deal with one. That low HP isn't much of disadvantage when it can wipe them all out with two breath weapons. CR 7 for level 3 party is usually too much. If they are more experienced players they might be able to defeat him. One of its advantages is that at lvl 3 only "flying" spells are levitate and alter self which your party doesn't have. Plus their only ranged option is warlock who can deal 2d6 dmg per round.

ocato
2007-03-22, 11:06 PM
You know that if you do this they will have less wealth then expected for their level. So if the players aren't good at tactics they have to suffer because of lack of equipment too? That seems like crippling players.

That's a fair assessment. Granted I don't have too much trouble with really bad tactics amoung PCs so I may be harsh because of good players.

marjan
2007-03-22, 11:10 PM
That's a fair assessment. Granted I don't have too much trouble with really bad tactics amoung PCs so I may be harsh because of good players.

Though I don't like that style of play it may be good way to encourage PCs to use their brains now that I think of it.

ocato
2007-03-22, 11:25 PM
Diff'rent strokes my friend.

Jewish_Joke
2007-03-23, 12:34 AM
Remember we were all inexperienced players once. Positive reinforcement is key. Dishing out magic items for good roleplaying (be it tactics or character interaction) is not my cup of tea, I usually opting for bonus xp for those who pull off something rather clever, or purposefully further the plot-line I run for the game. Getting massively off-track and/or repeatedly smashing monsters till they are dead usually ends up with the characters dying, which is encouragement enough.

Remember that as a DM, playing monsters as if it is a life or death situation (for the monster, which is most definitely the case) forces the PCs to do the same. If the dragon is fighting for it's life, I gander the PCs are in a world of hurt, half hp or not. If your PCs are kinda new to roleplaying, I find it fair to 'save' the game. If the battle goes bad, they can just fight it again, allowing them to brush up on their techniques; kind of like a reset button.

This should be used only for brand new players, mind you, as it also encourages metagaming, which can grow quickly out of hand...

Logic
2007-03-23, 01:08 AM
I think that party fighter needs to realize that there is a such a thing as the Wealth-by-level table for a reason.

If neccesary, have an NPC (discreetly) follow them out, thinking they are not ready to face a dragon yet. If you want to make it look less like divine intervention, have that NPC warn them beforehand about the dangers of meddling in the affairs of dragons (for you are crunchy and tatse good with ketchup!). His only responsibility is to pull the PCs out before their death. Make him capable enough to run in and save the PC's collective ass (by forcing them to retreat), not good enough to defeat the dragon on his own.

The most memorable NPC in my campaign actually was a fighter that warned a 1st level rouge to not go into the sewer at night, alone, with a known undead infestation down there, and unprepared.
The player got into a fight with a mere 2 skeletons, and went into the negative hitpoint area, and I said to myself "How do I save the character and have it make sense?" Thus, the rescue NPC was born.

Norsesmithy
2007-03-23, 01:17 AM
Definatly have the second dragon kill the NPC before retreating, this way they don't think that they will be able to count on Dragon Slayer Bob, Baker for Hire, rescuing their arses if it starts going south (or wondering why that "Godly" NPC doesn't handle all the Big Problems, like dragons, himself).

Jack Mann
2007-03-23, 02:35 AM
Yeah, if you play this dragon at all intelligently, they're dead.

Flyby attack would devastate them, since they have no ranged power. The breath weapon could probably take out the warlock, and maybe the cleric, in one hit. With the right spells known, the dragon can really lay a hurting on them.

As well, even if they did manage to hurt it, the dragon can just fly away. Sure, if they're near its hoard, it wants to get rid of them, but a dragon isn't going to stick around to die for it, if it knows it can't win. Especially if it has a chance to go, heal up a bit, and then come back for revenge later on, when it has full hit points.

So give it some weaknesses beyond lower hp. Take away its flight. Make it an idiot. Have it stick around long enough for them to hit it. Don't give it any good feats. Don't let it cast spells.

Because if you play it at all intelligently, it doesn't matter how smart your players are. As you've described them, they wouldn't stand a chance. This is the one of the very few times I will recommend not playing a dragon up to its full potential.

JadedDM
2007-03-23, 02:53 AM
There is something fundamentally wrong with the whole idea to me. You are essentially going to create an encounter with two green dragons. Then you are going to kill one and cripple the other. All of this is being done so the party can come in, finish off the second dragon, and then collect all of the loot.

So why even bother? Why not just have them stumble into an unguarded cave that contains two dragon horde's worth of gold? Why not just state that the gold magically materializes into their pockets and call it a night?

In other words, if you take a step back here and really examine what you are proposing...you are essentially giving the party something they did NOT truly earn. There's a reason why the most powerful monsters tend to have the best loot.

This, my friend, is the true definition of "Monty Haul." Huge amounts of treasure with little effort.

Jack Mann
2007-03-23, 02:58 AM
Part of the problem is that it really isn't little effort. It's still probably too difficult for them. It's just that it would normally be impossible.

My suggestion? Don't do dragon treasure at all. Go through what they have, compare it to the Wealth by Level table. Come up with enough treasure to make up the difference, and a bit more. Make about three quarters of it designed to be useful to them, make the rest something they can sell (which should bring them just about exactly to their expected wealth). Come up with a CR appropriate challenge for them to face. Something you don't have to cripple just to give them the barest chance of besting.

And afterwards, give them treasure as normal for their encounters, adjusting every once in a while up or down to keep them near where they should be.

JadedDM
2007-03-23, 03:32 AM
Okay, well in this case it's more like 'with less effort.'

I think Jack Mann's proposal is much more reasonable.

dwaro
2007-03-23, 08:45 AM
If the point is for the party to gain the double dragon hoard, then one wonders at the intelligence of dragons. Presumably, there are loads of magic potions in a double dragon hoard. Obviously, the dragon, a being who puts its survival above all else, or it wouldn't have run away, would drink these magic potions to restore its health. Thus, you're back with a healthy dragon.

I even have to question the intelligence of two dragons, large ones, in fact, going into town demanding tribute without at least singling out any threats. Maybe a very young wyrm would make that mistake, but these are two beings who have survived centuries in a world with all manner of wizards and dragon-slayers.

kamikasei
2007-03-23, 09:56 AM
Why are the dragons at the town demanding tribute? Perhaps they're desperate because their hoard was stolen away. That way the PCs can find just enough treasure to be appropriate to their level.

edit: You should probably come up with a reason why the second dragon would flee, but the powerful NPC not pursue it himself.

Also, I think ocato's argument is that, if the party has level-appropriate gear and is fighting a level-appropriate challenge, and can't win because they're using poor tactics, the solution shouldn't be to give them better gear. The solution is for them to learn to use better tactics. Otherwise they'll get into a habit of relying on having better gear than they should at their level, and using it stupidly.

Grug
2007-03-23, 10:46 AM
I should probably explain a few things.

It's just the party's fighter who complains about having little treasure. He actually has more than the rest of the group becasue he just joined. The rest of the group Doesn't care as much about loot. Most of them are pretty new, but the warlock studies DnD greatly and is a certified genius (really), so i figured he'd be able to help.

The whole Dragon thing wasn't just for balancing treasure, it was a plot point to be established before. The retired wizard that runs the inn, the cleric in the temple, the mayor of town, and a few other people are all part of a secret group called the Wists. The dragons started by demanding tribute remotely and agreed to stay hidden as long as they were payed. To prevent the rest of the town from finding out and panicking the Wists have been scraping together all the cash they can, even to go so far as gouging and stealing from the other townsfolk.

In their first adventure the Players recovered a magic silver bracelet for one of the townsfolk that thought it was stolen by kobolds, but it was really stolen by one of the Wists who lost it to the kobolds. The bracelet was returned to it's rightful owner, but because of it the Wists were short on tribute. Thus the dragons were not pacified and came to town to demand more.

The NPC is not a friend of the PCs, and only fights the dragons because of his pride. He will have a bigger part to play later on.

The entire point of my post is: are the fighter's concerns about lack of treasure really significant? Or is he just being the powergamer he is? The encounter with the dragon is meant to test the party's tactics, if they can do around 40 damage to one creature and prevent it from killing them the while. Lately they've just been melee-ing every monster they find, relying on the cleric to make up for when the monster is better than they are.

The dragon will have all the weaknesses Jack Mann described. It will not know the PCs are coming, while the players know the Dragon's color and could learn it's strengths and weaknesses. It will be at the bottom of a cave, so no flying. It will not think of using potions. It will be ASLEEP. I want the party to feel really good about taking down a dragon for the first time, and I figured a Large dragon would be more memorable than a medium.

As for the treasure, since most of it was the Wizard's personal cache and the rest was stolen from various townsfolk. The party can skim a little and the town will get the rest. After everyone is happy and rich they will want to reward the heroes and give them a bunch of level and class appropriate treasure. Also, the Wizard will be back in business and able to make more items for purchase and selling.

ocato
2007-03-23, 11:13 AM
Also, I think ocato's argument is that, if the party has level-appropriate gear and is fighting a level-appropriate challenge, and can't win because they're using poor tactics, the solution shouldn't be to give them better gear. The solution is for them to learn to use better tactics. Otherwise they'll get into a habit of relying on having better gear than they should at their level, and using it stupidly.

Thank you, I'm not always as clear as I'd like to be when expressing an opinion.

Sounds pretty good. Though the fighter with the +1 sword is definately doing fine for L3, at L5 he might have a piece of +1 armor as well or a +1 shield, but that's about as far as he aught to be. Describing the Dragon's horde as being stuff quickly returned to the townsfolk eliminates a lot of the concern on what you're giving them, but I'd be careful. If most of the party doesn't care and the person with the most is howling for more, evening up the loot distribution will result in either the fighter getting upset that he didn't get as much, in him getting the same amount as the rest did and being a fair bit above his WBL (wealth by level), or in the party giving in to him and giving him a portion of their share. My recomendation? Give him the Roy treatment. Make the fighter reward something with limited usefulness or selective use, so while the Warlock gets a magic robe or wand and the rogue gets goggles of searching or a dagger, the fighter gets a magic rope that does something goofy but potent if used correctly. Hopefully this evens things out without causing a scrap at your table.

kamikasei
2007-03-23, 11:16 AM
The entire point of my post is: are the fighter's concerns about lack of treasure really significant? Or is he just being the powergamer he is? The encounter with the dragon is meant to test the party's tactics, if they can do around 40 damage to one creature and prevent it from killing them the while. Lately they've just been melee-ing every monster they find, relying on the cleric to make up for when the monster is better than they are.

There is a simple way to see if his complaints are valid. Take inventory of what the party has, tot it up for GP value, and compare it to the wealth-by-level guidelines. If you're not having them fight monsters consistently higher than the appropriate CR, and they have gear appropriate to their level, they have nothing to complain about.

Remember that CR assumes the wealth will be spent intelligently and that the party will fight intelligently, too.


As for the treasure, since most of it was the Wizard's personal cache and the rest was stolen from various townsfolk. The party can skim a little and the town will get the rest. After everyone is happy and rich they will want to reward the heroes and give them a bunch of level and class appropriate treasure. Also, the Wizard will be back in business and able to make more items for purchase and selling.

I was actually going to suggest something like this, before I got to the end of your post and saw that you'd mentioned it yourself. I would still suggest a plot point along the lines of the dragons having lost much of their hoard, but if the players find a large stash which is actually just level-appropriate treasure with a load of the village's gold thrown in - and they do actually give it back to the village, keeping their loot - they get to feel accomplished and virtuous while not being put too far ahead of the power curve.

PinkysBrain
2007-03-23, 11:37 AM
Have ye old magic shoppes or customize the loot according to the players. Rolling loot but not allowing your players to just buy magic items is a bit silly. One of your players has a 8K weapon and the other has got bugger all???

What dragon are you talking about? I don't see any large green dragon with CR7 ... even it existed it would have a breath weapon which could one shot your entire party if the cleric isn't smart enough to use resist energy (even then with resist energy he can do significant damage). Also your party can't fly ... I wouldn't pit them against a large dragon of any color until they are level 7.

ravenkith
2007-03-23, 11:46 AM
Juvenile or Young adult?

Better be juvenile, or they've got no chance, what with the dc 20 fear effect and the 3rd level sorc spells, not to mention the dr 5/magic of a YA green.

Truthfully, a smart juvenile still ought to wipe them out.

JadedDM
2007-03-23, 04:09 PM
The dragon will have all the weaknesses Jack Mann described. It will not know the PCs are coming, while the players know the Dragon's color and could learn it's strengths and weaknesses. It will be at the bottom of a cave, so no flying. It will not think of using potions. It will be ASLEEP. I want the party to feel really good about taking down a dragon for the first time, and I figured a Large dragon would be more memorable than a medium.

How satisfying is it going to be, really, for your party of 3rd levels to kill a crippled, wounded, surprised, sleeping dragon?

To me, slaying a dragon should be a very big event. It SHOULD be something to be proud of. Just like when a young boy goes on his first hunting trip and becomes a man. Now imagine if the boy's father shot the deer in the leg first, so the boy could walk right up to it and shoot it point-blank. How satsifying is that, really? What kind of lesson is learned?

Grug
2007-03-24, 12:15 PM
Even if it's asleep, It's not like you can coup de grace it and call it a day. I'm actually hoping a little the fighter will just run up and start hacking at it (and get melted), or if he starts ranting about how I'm being unfair the dragon will stir in it's sleep. Trust me, he deserves it. He's been obsessing over treasure so much that he's been calling me up and sending me e-mails about it. Now he's threatening if I don't give him all the treasure he says he deserves in this next session he's going to leave the group and take another player with him.

I considered having a smaller dragon, possibly a very young, but it just wouldn't work with my plot. We'll call the dragons Al and Bill. If Al was much bigger than his brother, then all of the town's fear of attack is based on just him. If bigger Al got killed, suddenly the town doesn't feel like there's as much danger anymore because only much weaker Bill is left. But if Bill was as big as his brother Al, the towns folk would fear both of them equally, and know that even though one is dead, the other is still a force to be reckoned with. Also, a dragon that's medium size just isn't all that intimidating. The party will defenitely feel more heroic if they slay a dragon the size of a van instead the size of a cow.

Miles Invictus
2007-03-24, 01:54 PM
He's been obsessing over treasure so much that he's been calling me up and sending me e-mails about it. Now he's threatening if I don't give him all the treasure he says he deserves in this next session he's going to leave the group and take another player with him.


The only appropriate response to that kind of ultimatum is, ironically, not appropriate for these boards.

Why would you want to continue gaming with this guy? Threatening to leave should be a last resort over an intractable problem, not "Waaaah, I'm not getting enough loot!"

kamikasei
2007-03-24, 02:26 PM
Trust me, he deserves it. He's been obsessing over treasure so much that he's been calling me up and sending me e-mails about it. Now he's threatening if I don't give him all the treasure he says he deserves in this next session he's going to leave the group and take another player with him.

Be sure of your own standing, before you get into anything. By the DMG's wealth-by-level guidelines, each of these level 3 guys should have about 2700 gp worth of equipment. They can have less or more, of course, at your discretion, but that's the baseline that he can't possibly legitimately contest as "unfair". A single +1 longsword (I assume that's what he's got when you say "sword and board") should cost about 2315 gold, so he hasn't a leg to stand on in claiming he's under-equipped. The others, by your description, may fall behind the WBL guidelines, but that's something you can address in the hoard awaiting them.

The second step, after working out where they stand relative to the guidelines, is to point out that they are guidelines and that it's entirely within your prerogative to award them less or more than that, so long as encounters take into account their non-standard ability, or to vary the rate at which they receive treasure so that they may be behind at one level and ahead the next. Explain that they are not entitled to a certain amount of loot but that guidelines exist to aid in maintaining balance and that where you deviate from those guidelines, you're maintaining balance by other means.

Point out that the alternative is for every encounter they have to drop a certain amount of treasure, determined randomly, which leads to useless rewards and the breaking of verisimilitude (why wasn't that goblin using the potion?), as well as simply being less fun than if you're selecting and shuffling around treasure so that the +1 shield they find has a story explaining how it got there and who used to wield it, making it more than just a mechanical contrivance, or that the unmagical locket in the bugbear's hoard was stolen from a merchant who would be very grateful to have it returned and maybe give the party discounts on her goods... etc.

Of course, all of this is secondary to resolving the issue with the fighter, and really only need be brought up if other players have a legitimate gripe about being behind their expected wealth (especially if they're feeling less capable, and therefore having less fun, because they're fighting monsters without the tools they're expected to have). For the fighter, simply point out that he is not entitled to make demands of you; if he wants to request something in the game that he thinks will make it more fun, you'll decide whether to grant it based on considerations of balance and the enjoyment of the other people at the table, and if he thinks your judgment is unreasonable then he shouldn't want you as a DM anyway.

edit: Out of curiosity, what sort of treasure is the fighter demanding? Oh, and the guideline for level 4 is 5400 gp each, if that's any help.

Jason Va hater
2007-03-24, 02:34 PM
You must be a saint if you are even considering playing with a game terrorist like this. Raise your alert to orange though I dont think that this guy has much to complain about. The characters are only L3 for Aurils sake there is still plenty of time to get that game breaking weapon that he wants.

Your plan is a fine one and is plot centric which is nice to see. Good luck.

Dragor
2007-03-24, 02:45 PM
I like your plot and your style. On the dragons bit, possibly not, that would be a little overwhelming at this point. Get some daunting (but not overwhelming enemies). However, if your party is complaining about 'no challenge' then they deserve some dragons.
On the subject of the loot-lover, he sounds like an unpleasant gamer and you shouldn't be gaming with him. Gamers don't threaten their DM if something doesn't go their way. Either don't respond to his emails or try and tell him, "This is how I play. If you don't like it, leave, you big cry baby." (or something along those lines.) Don't try and seem tyrannical, though. :smallsmile:

Good luck.

Harkone
2007-03-24, 02:59 PM
As an aside, I'd like to comment on the planned NPC intervention against the two dragons.
As a player, I find there's nothing more frustrating (and honestly, boring) than having a monster (or two monsters, in this case) show up that is/are way out of my party's league just to have a powerful NPC (which just reeks, by the way, of deux ex machina) show up and defeat it for us.
Consequently, as a DM I refuse to engage in these sorts of plot devices for that exact reason. A 3rd-level party should even be remotely involved in what is an EL 9 encounter (two CR 7 dragons = EL 9). Better to hold off this battle (and the associated plotline) until the PC's are able to defeat at least one of the dragons on their own (maybe while the NPC is fighting the second dragon). That way they'll feel a real sense of accomplishment when they defeat the dragon, and won't feel like they're snatching someone else's hard-earned loot (or just being handed it by the DM) when they track down the two dragons' lair and treasure. Or, you can always weaken the monsters involved.

Just a thought.

And as for the whiny Fighter's player, you should tell him where to go. A +1 weapon and shield are more than enough for a 3rd level character (actually, either one is enough in my mind), especially if the party cleric has what amounts to a +2 weapon (+1 flaming mace).

Grug
2007-03-24, 04:06 PM
I think the source of his griping is that he thinks you should have the wealth listed at the beginning of the level instead of the end, so he thinks if he doesn't get 5400gp worth of loot before he levels he's not getting enough. On that note, since he made his character level three he gave himself 2700 gp worth of equipment, including halfplate and bracers of armor (which he just decided to instantly liquidate when I told him armor bonuses don't stack).

Also I lied, he doesn't have a +1 sword yet, but he found a +1 battleaxe in the previous dungeon and plans to sell it and use the income to have his MW sword enchanted. I think he doesn't deserve any extra treasure after all.

As for my other players, they could probably use a boost. but since my game is in 2 hours and I don't have anything else prepared, it's a dragon for them. Although, I may have to stall somehow because the Warlock won't be coming and the 2d6 touch damage would be very, very useful.

Can anyone think of a short detour the party could do on the way back to town? Preferably something non-combat related. Also keep in mind the party goes exceptionally sloooow.

kamikasei
2007-03-24, 04:18 PM
Well, he started at level 3 with 2700 gp to sink into equipment, as per the WBL. By the time he reaches level 4, it'd be reasonable to expect that the treasure gained from encounters, minus a buffer to cover consumables like healing potions and the like, will have brought him up to about 5400. He should not expect to have that 5400 at the start of his third level. He earns it over the course of the level. Note also that he doesn't get 5400 gp between third and fourth, he gets enough to bring him up to that amount.

But if he gave himself 2700 gp worth for his third level character, it sounds like he knows this. It might have been reasonable, though, to let him trade the bracers for a +1 weapon or something similar (since the mistake of armor and a magic item that don't stack isn't one a character is likely to make, so a little retconning is fair here).

But yeah, if he's got 2700 gp in equipment and cash, and a +1 battleaxe to sell off, he's got plenty of treasure for a third level character. By the time he's ready to level up, he should have earned a bit more treasure, and be at the WBL for fourth level.

Grug
2007-03-24, 05:35 PM
Actually i realized that he's way AHEAD in treasure. The wealth by level rules are meant to show how much players should have at the END of the level. What tipped me off is that the 1st level entry says players should have 900gp. It doesn't seem right that a DM would let 1st level players start wtih so much, because that's a breastplate and some potions/scrolls right there. So it would really be at the end of 1st level they have so much.

kamikasei
2007-03-24, 05:47 PM
Actually i realized that he's way AHEAD in treasure. The wealth by level rules are meant to show how much players should have at the END of the level. What tipped me off is that the 1st level entry says players should have 900gp. It doesn't seem right that a DM would let 1st level players start wtih so much, because that's a breastplate and some potions/scrolls right there. So it would really be at the end of 1st level they have so much.

Are we both talking about the DMG, "Table 5-1: Character Wealth by Level"? There is no entry for first level on that table. The 900gp is for second level. A first level character gets starting gold or a starting package as described in the PHB for his class; by second level he's expected to have 900gp; by third level, 2700gp. Note also the "Treasure Values" sidebar on page 54 and its accompanying table. A third level character is expected to have 2700gp when he reaches that level, gain 2999gp while reaching fourth level, and spend 299gp of that on consumables to be left with 5400gp when he levels to fourth.

It's starting to sound like the fighter may have a legitimate gripe, even if he's getting more worked up about it than is reasonable.

Grug
2007-03-24, 09:35 PM
Sorry, I remembered incorrectly.

Well, the session is over and they were fine. It turns out there was one big weakness the dragon had: Bestow curse. -6 penalty to constitution on a Jevenille dragon means -42 hp. It only had 53 to start with. However, the cleric got knocked out with a tailslap before he could discharge the scroll he used. I'd say it was a good fight. The cleric mistakenly bought protection from energy scrolls rather than resist energy, although it turned out to really come in handy when the party was unphased by the breath attack that hit one of them for 22 (would have knocked em out right there). Everyone did a good amount of damage to it, except the cleric but he used the scrolls. the cleric and fighter were knocked out by the dragon's melee (the Fighter reminded me of the strength bonus to damage. I wish the books statted out dragons better), then the rogue got a sneak attack on the dragon and drew it's ire. Right when it was about to go melee on her behind the swashbuckler hit with an AoO, so I ruled she managed to grab onto the wing and cart an artery, sending the dragon into negatives. Then the fighter and cleric were revive and severed the head (essential). The entire encounter from the surprise round to the revival took all of 5 rounds, most of which was healing unconcious characters. it took alot of prodding from me for the scrolls, but i feel it was a good game.

Of course the fighter said he only had a "moderately" good time, probably because he was forced to bow or be eaten when he had two dragons bearing down on him. Then he ran out of town and then came back because "he heard a thud". I guess he doesn't like plot. He also chose to just sit there quietly when the rest of the group was buying items to get going; he couldn't wait the two days to get his bastard sword enchanted. Oh well. Next session they get the phat lewt.