build me a stealthy swordsage for underdark

[baojin]

Hi fine masters,

I would need your help in the construction of a nice swordsage for an upcoming underdark campaign.

I would like to go for the stealth and concealment damage dealer type. We will be only two players and I don't know what the other will play...

The main rule it's that dips aren't really allowed unless that make sense in a character history. Books are limited to forgotten realms and non setting books and no dragon magazine.

Starting level would be 12 and 40 points buy. For races and templates nothing to shabby, we use buyout. Shadow is a good template but it's pretty hard to walk around without raising serious eyebrows. Drow would be fun too.

Two general rules for the game :
We don't use flight
We don't use teleport for travel (but the shadow stuff in combat is ok).

I'd love to have flavor but need to be combat efficient as we are only two, ideally someone who can survive in melee ok due to concealment and able to deal heavy damage despite not being able to flank (probably).

I guess dex based with one or two weapons and also good skills for traps and such.

I think we don't use psionics either.

Quite the challenge !

Thanks a lot in advance, fine masters !

[Forrestfire]

If you've got LA buyoff, I feel like a Shadow Creature Swordsage/whatever is one of the best possible options. It shouldn't actually be an issue for walking around, given that the Shadow Blend ability is optional ("can disappear into the shadows"), although as a Supernatural ability, note that it takes a Standard Action to toggle your blending.

What do you want the character to do other than be melee-capable and stealthy? Shadow gets you 50% concealment most of the time and melee-capable isn't hard to build for, nor are the skills. Make sure you grab Darkstalker and put ranks in stuff and you should be fine.

Some possible options might be stuff like:

Swordsage 12 - Pretty decent all around. It's not going to win damage contests against uberchargers and the like, but will be competent, mobile, and do pretty decent damage in combat.
Swordsage x/Cleric x/Ruby Knight Vindicator x: Very strong, and lets you put focus onto divine spells giving you utility or combat options or maneuvers, depending on your level combinations. The ability to generate extra swift actions makes you super mobile, especially if you're grabbing Travel Devotion for even more running around. Knowledge Devotion can help your attack and damage bonuses, and if you're in a group where it'd fit, Divine Metamagic (Persist) opens up some fun shenanigans.
Swordsage x/Spellcaster x/Jade Phoenix Mage x: is a pretty fun gish to play. You get some flashy maneuvers and the power of spells, which can vary from utility stuff to increase your stealthiness to even sillier levels or shore up your abilities in areas you're less good at (or just support your meleeing).
Swordsage x/Chameleon x: Super versatile and pretty fun to play. You floating feat can be spent on Martial Study or Martial Stance, letting you pick a maneuver from off your list if you need one. Other than that, decent all-around, since it gets you spells and various other abilities.


For race, you're probably looking at Human, Strongheart Halfling, or Whisper Gnome as the best choices for a stealthy swordsage. The Shadow Blade feat is where most of your damage will come from if you're going with a Dex focus, so size matters much less here. I suggest getting your weapons enchanted with the Discipline enchantment, giving you a +3 to hit because you'll probably always be in a Shadow Hand stance.

Out of curiosity, do you have a character concept and backstory that you'd like to make? Because that'd make it all much easier. Pretty much any concept can be made mechanically amazing.

[Lightlawbliss]

obligatory handbook link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?259783-3-5-Swordsage-Handbook-This-one-ll-walk-the-whole-Way-WIP-PEACH)

I second that you want darkstalker.

For damage, what sort of damage do you want? Reliable? burst? crit fisher? stat damage?...

I would recommend the entire party having darkvision, the better to not get shot at as soon as you walk into one of underdark's innumerable black caverns.

Since you won't be flying, the ability to climb and jump will be more important then normal. Those two skills are typically ignored in favor of flight.

If you dip a class that gives armor proficiency, you would be wise to take unarmed swordsage.

[prufock]

Shadow is a good template but it's pretty hard to walk around without raising serious eyebrows. Drow would be fun too.
As an alternative to Shadow template, there is the Dark template in Tome of Magic. You get +10' movement, darkvision, hide in plain sight, cold resistance 10, and superior low-light vision, as well as +8/+6 to hide/move silently. It's pretty beefy for +1 LA. Note you can get this through an item (Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis), but if you can buy off the LA right away it is a dandy template.

[ILM]

Whisper Gnome Swordsage 12 with Darkstalker, Shadow Blade, Assassin's Stance and Craven, a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis from Tome of Magic (or just buyout the Dark Template), and max ranks in Hide/Move Silently. Other good candidates for LA buyout are Shadow-Walker from UE and Shadow Creature from LoM? (not sure, going by memory)

If you can't flank you might find it a bit hard to reliably use your sneak attacks, so you could replace Assassin's Stance + Craven with something else. If your campaign is creature-specific, maybe Knowledge Devotion? Alternatively, just go two-handed :smallsmile:.

[baojin]

Thanks for all the replies :-)

I like to go sustained damage as I got bad luck with rolls (I can spend hours rolling below 5, believe it or not) so I'd like to avoid the high risk high reward things. Also I will probably be moving quite some and rely on maneuvers for damage. The question is having two weapons or just one.

Sneak attacks are an issue without flanking except with the weapon enchant that give blur for example.

For background I'm not sure yet, to have the dark template it means you've been trapped on that plane for a long time. Probably in one of shar s prisons.

Human is probably needed as I need both darkstalker and adaptive style then swordsage 12 probably yes or with a mix of rogue and ss ? I like to have maneuvers as high as possible and desert wind has a nice stance when you have concealment.

I believe that the drow had a fortress in the plane of shadow that could be a good background. But I fear that when you have the shadow template you actually really look like the bogeyman ...

[Forrestfire]

The Shadow Creature template might make you look like a boogeyman, or it might make you look like someone ran a greyscale filter over you, or it might make you look like a human-equivalent of a Drow. Really, the only restrictions on appearance are that you were born on the plane of shadow and that Murky and Lurky stole your colors (which is actually a really neat idea. It'll make you look all sorts of out of place, but is still neat. Maybe the character wears makeup to give themselves color). Backstory-wise, it can easily be explained by having been from plane of shadow and traveling to the Material for some reason or other. Could even have been as a child. Gives the DM a nice plot hook if your character got plane shifted by someone.

In any case, if you're going with a Dex focus, two-weapon fighting is probably a good option, if you can afford it, WBL-wise. Personally, with the character goals outlined, I'd likely go for something like:

Shadow (bought off) Human Martial Rogue (Unearthed Arcana) 1/Swordsage 11
Feats:

1st - Craven

Human Bonus - Able Learner

Rogue Bonus - Two-Weapon Fighting

3rd - Weapon Finesse

6th - Adaptive Style

9th - Darkstalker

12th - Shadow Blade

For maneuvers and stances, you're going to want some of the Shadow Hand teleports and Assassin's Stance. You're basically never going to leave said stance, since it gives you 2d6+12 sneak attack damage on each attack (the extra is from Craven).

Shadow Creature has some great other abilities like Fast Healing 2, Evasion, and +2 luck to saves (also Plane Shift 1/day, but that might not be something you want if you don't use teleportation for long distances).

Skill-wise, you want to max Hide and Move Silently, as well as Disable Device and Use Magic Device. Open Lock might be less needed, but UMD is super useful. At level 12, you can get 15 ranks in it, and when combined with a masterwork tool and a 14 or better in Cha, you can activate wands even on a 1.

You've got 88,000gp worth of stuff to get, so the stuff you want is:

Gloves of Dexterity +4 (16,000gp)
A pair of +1 Discipline (Shadow Hand) Short Swords with Wand Chambers (8410 gp each, or 16,820gp) - weapons. Could enchant them with other stuff, but it's probably not necessary.
+2 Leather Armor (4,115gp) - an extra +4 to your AC. Probably not needed because of total concealment, but better safe than sorry.
Wand of Golem Strike (750gp) - useful if fighting constructs, as sneak attack is your main source of damage.
Wand of Grave Strike (750gp) - same thing, but for undead
Gloves of the Balanced Hand (8,000gp) - grants Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (22,000gp) - grants the Dark template, which, above all else, gives you Hide in Plain Sight. I personally think it's better to have this than getting the template, since 3 LA takes longer to buy off.
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000gp) - don't really need more because of your defenses
Masterwork Tool of Hide, Move Silently, and Use Magic Device (make some up, there are plenty of good ideas) (50gp each, 150gp total)
Ring of the Darkhidden (2,000gp) - invisibility to Darkvision, for if your DM rules Shadow Blend as not working against it.


This comes to a total of 72,585gp, leaving you with ~15.4k to spend on other items as you see fit.

The starting ability array I'd go with is Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 14, and then I'd put your three level-up ability points into Dex, for a total of 21 (25 with your gloves). Your Hide and Move Silently modifiers are through the roof (+32 and +36, respectively), which will only matter against things that don't rely on sight to see you. Against most things, you will have Total Concealment in combat, denying them their dexterity bonus. Active Camouflage for the win?

Your BAB is +8 (or +9 if the DM is doing fractional BAB when multiclassing), so your full attack routine is +20/+20/+15/+15, and each hit does 1d6+8 damage before sneak attack. Not amazing, but still pretty decent (especially since you're sneak attacking almost all the time). I'd grab Collision on your weapons when you get the chance, but otherwise you're good. On maneuvers, you do pretty good damage as well, thanks again to the sneak attack. Elementals are gonna be jerks to you, though, as will things immune to critical hits that aren't constructs or undead. You can still do decent enough damage to them with maneuvers at least.

EDIT: Good point on the ring. I can't believe I forgot about that.

[Know(Nothing)]

Uh, I don't know how we went this long without mentioning a Ring of the Darkhidden. It is dirt cheap and will make you constantly invisible to nearly everything you come across in the Underdark. Every character ever should have one, especially stealthy ones, ESPECIALLY in a dungeon/underdark heavy campaign.

[Forrestfire]

Wow, I totally forgot that one existed. Yeah, get that one, OP.

[baojin]

Awesome thanks I will be set with this.

Another item I'll buy is the ring off anticipation as it's the best initiative item in the game add I kinda need to be first.

However I think I will start at lvl 10 if I buy of my levels ? It should make me go with 51 000 xp 4 away from 11

[Forrestfire]

Ah. Still, totally worth it. I'd delay Two-Weapon Fighting, and just use the gloves of the balanced hand to give you that feat. One less attack at -5, but you've still got the three-attack routine and great Sneak Attack.

[ILM]

Another item I'll buy is the ring off anticipation as it's the best initiative item in the game add I kinda need to be first.
An eternal wand of Primal Instinct (or a 1/day custom wand of Primal Instinct if you can make it fly) is better, barely more expensive, and doesn't take a slot.

[baojin]

One last question !

Instead of the leather armor, shouldn't I take a wand of mage armor ? It gives better ac and is cheaper ? Also it works against incorporeal attacks too ?

[Forrestfire]

It really depends. The leather armor is +4 to ac all day, and can be later enchanted to get other stuff, like Ghost Ward, or Fortification, or the like. Or even more Hide and Move Silently. A wand of mage armor only lasts an hour per charge (assuming base cost wand), and won't improve later. If you find yourself ambushed, it's not going to help either.

Personally, I like having the armor because it's a drop in the bucket, but if you find yourself needing the gold to spend elsewhere, the wand is a decent enough substitute, if only because you're unable to be attacked most of the time thanks to shadow blend, darkstalker, and ring of darkhidden combining nicely.

[Lightlawbliss]

One last question !

Instead of the leather armor, shouldn't I take a wand of mage armor ? It gives better ac and is cheaper ? Also it works against incorporeal attacks too ?

A normal wand? Not worth it for a buff you always want up
Leather armor has the advantage of being enchant-able. By level 12, the +4 armor bonus from mage armor is rather low.
I am personally a fan of gnomish twist cloth.

I would recommend (in addition to forrestfire's recommendations on skills) at-least one rank in jump, 5 ranks in balance, at-least 1 rank in each class knowledge, atleast 1 rank in martial lore, and training tumble at least until you can auto-succeed on not provoking one attack of opportunity.

Forrestfire: Why are you recommending hide alongside the shadow template? Shadow blend gives total concealment and dark stalker uses hide OR more silently countered by spot or listen respectively.

[Forrestfire]

Forrestfire: Why are you recommending hide alongside the shadow template? Shadow blend gives total concealment and dark stalker uses hide OR more silently countered by spot or listen respectively.

*checks*

Huh, I could have sworn you needed both for that. That's what I get for going off memory, I guess. Hide isn't strictly needed, but it's definitely still useful (in situations where you're unable to use Shadow Blend, for example, or if you run into something that can see through it). Shadow Blend definitely obviates the need for Hide against sighted creatures, and Ring of Darkhidden does so against creatures with Darkvision. Move Silently can handle any alternate senses, too.

I wonder if Devils can see through Shadow Blend. Maybe ask your DM if there are things that can see through Shadow Blend (including Darkvision, since it's not said if it does), and decide if you want Hide ranks based on that.

[ILM]

One last question !

Instead of the leather armor, shouldn't I take a wand of mage armor ? It gives better ac and is cheaper ? Also it works against incorporeal attacks too ?
True, but it can be dispelled...

[Lightlawbliss]

...
I wonder if Devils can see through Shadow Blend. Maybe ask your DM if there are things that can see through Shadow Blend (including Darkvision, since it's not said if it does), and decide if you want Hide ranks based on that.
Shadow Blend (Su): In any conditions other than full daylight, a shadow creature can disappear into the shadows, giving it total concealment. Artificial illumination, even a light or continual flame spell, does not negate this ability, but a daylight spell will.

By strict RAW, you have total concealment when the ability is active and not negated by full daylight or a daylight spell. There is technically nothing saying anything bypasses this total concealment.

That said, I wouldn't fault a DM for house ruling differently. I do so myself.

[baojin]

Hmm finally we have to start level 11 I don't know if taking shadow is viable as I'd be lvl 9 until I got xp back (i won't get more xp per encounter than the other player) ?

Also should I not take two martial rogue levels as it doesn't change my initiator level ?

[Andry]

I would say instead of leather go with spidersilk armor from Underdark. It is expensive but the max dex is pretty high.

[Forrestfire]

Hmm finally we have to start level 11 I don't know if taking shadow is viable as I'd be lvl 9 until I got xp back (i won't get more xp per encounter than the other player) ?

Also should I not take two martial rogue levels as it doesn't change my initiator level ?

Shadow is still viable. Unless your DM is ignoring the exp rules, being lower level will get you more exp per encounter than the other players, letting you catch up eventually. Even if he's not, then it's probably still worth it, because it's one of the few templates that's actually worth the LA. Shadow Blend is effective immunity to many attacks, and the utility stuff is pretty great too.

The second level of martial rogue is a personal choice you'd need to make. The main benefit is Evasion, which Shadow can give you, and the bonus feat. The extra level of Swordsage gives you an extra maneuver, so it depends on if the feat's worth more than the maneuver. It probably is, unless there's something you really need. Swordsage level 9 also gives you Evasion, so you should ask your DM if the Evasion from Shadow, Rogue, and/or Swordsage will stack and give you Improved Evasion, since unlike prestige classes with the ability, they don't have a clause for that.

[Jeff the Green]

Lesser/Savage Progressions Drow Swordsage 1/Warlock 1/Swordsage +x. Key feats are Shadow Blade, Improved Trip, Blend into Shadows, and (with a favorable ruling) Drow Skirmisher. (This assumes that a DM will let you treat a Drow scorpion chain as a spiked chain for Shadow Blade; given that they are for all the core feats and they're basically the same weapon, this is more than reasonable.) Your warlock invocation should be Darkness. Shadow Blade gives Dex + Dex to damage for the scorpion chain, Blend into Shadows gives you a version of HiPS that, while worse than Shadowdancer's, is much better than the dark template. Drow Skirmisher makes you better with the scorpion chain and synergizes with standard-action strikes and the movement maneuvers.

You can go with an additional warlock level for another invocation too.

[baojin]

Interesting, thanks ! I'll take a look at the warlock too I dint know the class.

If not I'll still keep the shadow I like it even if I'll level slow

[nedz]

The Shadow Creature template might make you look like a boogeyman, or it might make you look like someone ran a greyscale filter over you, or it might make you look like a human-equivalent of a Drow. Really, the only restrictions on appearance are that you were born on the plane of shadow and that Murky and Lurky stole your colors (which is actually a really neat idea. It'll make you look all sorts of out of place, but is still neat. Maybe the character wears makeup to give themselves color). Backstory-wise, it can easily be explained by having been from plane of shadow and traveling to the Material for some reason or other. Could even have been as a child. Gives the DM a nice plot hook if your character got plane shifted by someone.

In any case, if you're going with a Dex focus, two-weapon fighting is probably a good option, if you can afford it, WBL-wise. Personally, with the character goals outlined, I'd likely go for something like:

Shadow (bought off) Human Martial Rogue (Unearthed Arcana) 1/Swordsage 11
Feats:

1st - Craven

Human Bonus - Able Learner

Rogue Bonus - Two-Weapon Fighting

3rd - Weapon Finesse

6th - Adaptive Style

9th - Darkstalker

12th - Shadow Blade

For maneuvers and stances, you're going to want some of the Shadow Hand teleports and Assassin's Stance. You're basically never going to leave said stance, since it gives you 2d6+12 sneak attack damage on each attack (the extra is from Craven).

Shadow Creature has some great other abilities like Fast Healing 2, Evasion, and +2 luck to saves (also Plane Shift 1/day, but that might not be something you want if you don't use teleportation for long distances).

Skill-wise, you want to max Hide and Move Silently, as well as Disable Device and Use Magic Device. Open Lock might be less needed, but UMD is super useful. At level 12, you can get 15 ranks in it, and when combined with a masterwork tool and a 14 or better in Cha, you can activate wands even on a 1.

You've got 88,000gp worth of stuff to get, so the stuff you want is:

Gloves of Dexterity +4 (16,000gp)
A pair of +1 Discipline (Shadow Hand) Short Swords with Wand Chambers (8410 gp each, or 16,820gp) - weapons. Could enchant them with other stuff, but it's probably not necessary.
+2 Leather Armor (4,115gp) - an extra +4 to your AC. Probably not needed because of total concealment, but better safe than sorry.
Wand of Golem Strike (750gp) - useful if fighting constructs, as sneak attack is your main source of damage.
Wand of Grave Strike (750gp) - same thing, but for undead
Gloves of the Balanced Hand (8,000gp) - grants Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (22,000gp) - grants the Dark template, which, above all else, gives you Hide in Plain Sight. I personally think it's better to have this than getting the template, since 3 LA takes longer to buy off.
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000gp) - don't really need more because of your defenses
Masterwork Tool of Hide, Move Silently, and Use Magic Device (make some up, there are plenty of good ideas) (50gp each, 150gp total)
Ring of the Darkhidden (2,000gp) - invisibility to Darkvision, for if your DM rules Shadow Blend as not working against it.


This comes to a total of 72,585gp, leaving you with ~15.4k to spend on other items as you see fit.

The starting ability array I'd go with is Str 10, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 14, and then I'd put your three level-up ability points into Dex, for a total of 21 (25 with your gloves). Your Hide and Move Silently modifiers are through the roof (+32 and +36, respectively), which will only matter against things that don't rely on sight to see you. Against most things, you will have Total Concealment in combat, denying them their dexterity bonus. Active Camouflage for the win?

Your BAB is +8 (or +9 if the DM is doing fractional BAB when multiclassing), so your full attack routine is +20/+20/+15/+15, and each hit does 1d6+8 damage before sneak attack. Not amazing, but still pretty decent (especially since you're sneak attacking almost all the time). I'd grab Collision on your weapons when you get the chance, but otherwise you're good. On maneuvers, you do pretty good damage as well, thanks again to the sneak attack. Elementals are gonna be jerks to you, though, as will things immune to critical hits that aren't constructs or undead. You can still do decent enough damage to them with maneuvers at least.

EDIT: Good point on the ring. I can't believe I forgot about that.

Two pairs of Gloves ?
Where are your extra arms coming from ?

[Forrestfire]

The magic item stacking rules in the Magic Item Compendium, which let you add +ability score stuff to any item without extra cost. I forgot to note that, since the distinction is moot.

[baojin]

Hmm unless I'm mistaken blink automatically denies dexterity bonus to ac and allows sneak attack.

Might be a good alternative to the shadow template and allows having 2 extra levels ? For 27k it's a steal