Help with eldritch claws and hellfire blast

[sage20500]

So my dm and i are unsure how the hellfire warlock feature and the eldritch claws fewt are supposed to play together. Does the pc take con damage for every claw attack they make with eldritch claws that deals damage, or do they take the con damage upon forming the claws, and then all claw attacks for that round deal the extra hellfire damage?

[ZamielVanWeber]

When you form your claws you would take the Con damage, just like when you form an Eldritch Glaive you would take the Con damage. Total number of attacks does not matter. The bonus damage from hellfire applies to all attacks made as long as you took the Con damage.

[Troacctid]

IIRC, you can only apply hellfire when you use your Eldritch Blast, and Eldritch Claws are not an Eldritch Blast--they are a separate ability that creates a set of claws that deal damage based on your Eldritch Blast. (There's even a line in the feat that says you cannot use Eldritch Blast at the same time as the claws.) As such, by RAW, you cannot use them with hellfire (or with eldritch essences). I believe they also deal nonmagical piercing and slashing damage (as normal claws would) and are subject to damage reduction but not spell resistance. Also, unlike Eldritch Blast, they have no somatic components and can be used in a grapple, and they deal full damage to objects before applying hardness.

If you're looking to houserule it to interact with Hellfire Warlock, I'd recommend just having it work like Eldritch Glaive: take the Con damage once, when you activate the claws each round, regardless of how many attacks you make that round.

[sage20500]

IIRC, you can only apply hellfire when you use your Eldritch Blast, and Eldritch Claws are not an Eldritch Blast--they are a separate ability that creates a set of claws that deal damage based on your Eldritch Blast. (There's even a line in the feat that says you cannot use Eldritch Blast at the same time as the claws.) As such, by RAW, you cannot use them with hellfire (or with eldritch essences). I believe they also deal nonmagical piercing and slashing damage (as normal claws would) and are subject to damage reduction but not spell resistance. Also, unlike Eldritch Blast, they have no somatic components and can be used in a grapple, and they deal full damage to objects before applying hardness.

If you're looking to houserule it to interact with Hellfire Warlock, I'd recommend just having it work like Eldritch Glaive: take the Con damage once, when you activate the claws each round, regardless of how many attacks you make that round.

What about eldritch grapple. Would hellfire and the eldritch essences apply for that. Im currently working on an eldritch grapple build and the claws were just icing on the cake.

[Red Fel]

IIRC, you can only apply hellfire when you use your Eldritch Blast, and Eldritch Claws are not an Eldritch Blast--they are a separate ability that creates a set of claws that deal damage based on your Eldritch Blast. (There's even a line in the feat that says you cannot use Eldritch Blast at the same time as the claws.) As such, by RAW, you cannot use them with hellfire (or with eldritch essences). I believe they also deal nonmagical piercing and slashing damage (as normal claws would) and are subject to damage reduction but not spell resistance. Also, unlike Eldritch Blast, they have no somatic components and can be used in a grapple, and they deal full damage to objects before applying hardness.

If you're looking to houserule it to interact with Hellfire Warlock, I'd recommend just having it work like Eldritch Glaive: take the Con damage once, when you activate the claws each round, regardless of how many attacks you make that round.

This. A common position on these boards is that Eldritch Claws does not, by RAW, play nicely with Hellfire Blast. The relevant text:
Whenever you use your eldritch blast ability, you can change your eldritch blast into a hellfire blast.
As a free action, you can form the energy of your eldritch blast into a set of claws extending almost an entire foot from your hands.
. . .
You cannot use your normal eldritch blast ability while your eldritch claws exist.
The intersection of the two is as Troacctid described. In order for HFB to trigger, you must use EB. But EC actually prevents you from using EB; it simply gives you claws that deal EB + unarmed damage.

Note that while Hellfire Warlock does not work with Eldritch Claws by RAW, Enlightened Spirit does work with EC, because it increases your EB's base damage. (It's also a poor PrC outside of gestalt, but details.)

That said, yes, it's still a subject of debate, and you could always request a house rule.


What about eldritch grapple. Would hellfire and the eldritch essences apply for that. Im currently working on an eldritch grapple build and the claws were just icing on the cake.

By Eldritch Grapple, I assume you mean the Grappling Blast feat. Yes, Grappling Blast explicitly states "you may also discharge your eldritch blast against the foe you're grappling." That means it works with EB, and by extension with HFB. It does not work with EC. That said, if you wanted to use EC, you could take the Beast Strike feat, which lets you add your claw damage to your unarmed strikes and damage-dealing grapple checks. But again, EC precludes HFB.

Note that Grappling Blast says you may not add blast shapes; it does not say that you may not add essences.

[sage20500]

Thanks for the clarification, i think for right now im going to just focus on grappling blast and if the build permits go back and add eldritch claws in later. Last two questions. The character is gestalt and im playing as an awakened wolf who will be size large before level 10. If he got improved unarmed strike from battledancer, could he sub out bite damage die for unarmed strike damage when he bites, and if he takes levels in cyran avenger, can he use avenging strike when grappling blast is used?

[Red Fel]

Thanks for the clarification, i think for right now im going to just focus on grappling blast and if the build permits go back and add eldritch claws in later. Last two questions. The character is gestalt and im playing as an awakened wolf who will be size large before level 10. If he got improved unarmed strike from battledancer, could he sub out bite damage die for unarmed strike damage when he bites, and if he takes levels in cyran avenger, can he use avenging strike when grappling blast is used?

Your two questions:

1. Can he swap bite damage for unarmed strike damage? Generally, no.

2. Does Cyran Avenger let you use Avenging Strike when you would use Grappling Blast? Tricky. Avenging Blast allows you to add your Cha modifier to an attack roll, and 1d6 per CA level to the damage roll. It must be delivered with a melee attack. It does not specify whether it has to be a melee attack action on its own, or whether it can be tacked onto an existing melee attack. I would rule the latter. However, Eldritch Blast is not a melee attack - it is a ranged touch attack. As such, the base form of Avenging Strike may not be used on your Grappling Blast. Note that at 3rd CA level, you may apply Avenging Strike to a ranged attack - at this point, I would allow it to apply to your Grappling Blast.