I need help with my wife's character. (PF)

[dascarletm]

Hello everybody!

Let me start out in advance for thanking anyone who helps me in my task to tweak my wife's character design. Alright, let's get to it.

Background:
1. 3 person party (My friend a shaman, my wife a swashbuckler[Inspired Blade], and myself a gunslinger[musket master])
2. The campaign is seafaring in nature. Pirating is pretty much our MO.
3. The Shaman is focusing on utility spells, and a few buffs/CC/Debuff. I'm focusing damage, in particular trying to be a competent sniper.
4. Optimization level. We are on the lower side, but I'd like to up the wife a bit.

Her Build:
So far she is a swashbuckler, Inspired Blade. Race Undine
Feats:
1. Hydraulic Maneuver
3. Combat Reflexes
4. Combat Expertise
5. ??

We just hit level 5 and she is unsure how to proceed. I believe the DM would be open to allowing us swap some things.

She wants to CC people, and do such things as disarm, and trip etc.

I'm not sure which way to take her from here. Any help is appreciated.

[Sayt]

Fencing grace seems the obvious place to start, assuming you have better dexterity than strength?

[dascarletm]

Fencing grace seems the obvious place to start, assuming you have better dexterity than strength?

Yes, 19 dex vs 10 str.

Besides the improved disarm/trip and other such feats, I'm not too sure. I don't play pathfinder much.

Fencing Grace is a great choice. It's things like these I just don't know about. Thank you.

[Faily]

There's also a +1 weapon enhancement (Adaptive, I believe, but memory is fuzzy now) that allows you to add your Dexterity to damage with a weapon finesse weapon, if you don't already have it.

There's also the feat Piranha Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat) (from Pathfinder Companion: Sargava, the Lost Colony) which is Power Attack for Finesse-fighters.

[dascarletm]

That's also good.

She doesn't want to focus too heavily on raw damage though. More so on the CC side.

[Sayt]

There's also a +1 weapon enhancement (Adaptive, I believe, but memory is fuzzy now) that allows you to add your Dexterity to damage with a weapon finesse weapon, if you don't already have it.

There's also the feat Piranha Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat) (from Pathfinder Companion: Sargava, the Lost Colony) which is Power Attack for Finesse-fighters.

Agile, not adaptive.

But Piranha Strike doesn't work with rapiers.

[T.G. Oskar]

Swashbucklers get five bonus feats, so they can do several builds pretty well. Since she has Combat Expertise and Combat Reflexes, she should be well set-up for a variety of tricks. Obviously she'll get Greater Trip, since you're already mentioning she's more focused on Crowd Control; I wouldn't recommend Disarm unless you face many armed opponents, since it'll work only on them.

Since she have more Dex than Str, get Agile Maneuvers, which should let her use her higher Dexterity bonus. Alongside Fencing Grace, this should make her less dependent on Strength. In fact, I would have replaced Hydraulic Maneuver with Agile Maneuvers, so she would have had the advantage of her better scores.

Next, I would go for the Step Up line (Step Up, Following Step, Step Up and Strike). The most important part of this feat chain is getting the extra attack as an immediate action, as it'll allow her to enable most of the feats that will go subsequently. Then, go Stand Still, and if your GM allows, Steady Engagement. This will allow her to keep her enemies in place, AND allows for a free disarm or trip attempt in place.

Important: by the time your wife reaches 11th level (if possible), she MUST choose Dazing Assault. It will require Strength 13, which is the only weakness, but it allows for two things: Power Attack (extra damage if she needs it) and a free Daze effect on every hit; she should have a huge Dex bonus to compensate for the -5 penalty, but the saving throw is high enough (10 + her BAB) and can be better if the Shaman can provide with debuffs that reduce saving throws, she can keep most of her targets dazed without a problem. Since it lasts for the entire round, she can apply Dazing Assault to her attacks of opportunity, including the melee attack from Step Up and Strike. That will involve forcing her to keep her ability scores in check until she can reach Strength 13, but you should consider it as Dazing Assault is one of the best feats for martial characters in the game, bar none. Consider (greatly) to spend 1 panache point to activate Menacing Swordplay when using Dazing Assault, as the shaken condition offers

Between Greater Trip, Dazing Assault, Step Up and Strike, Stand Still and Steady Engagement, your wife will have most likely excel at Crowd Control, though she'll lack the benefit of reach. The entire set-up will probably require 12 feats, which leaves her with three feats to spare. She could use those to get Critical Focus and maybe ONE Critical Feat; if she does, Sickening Critical is her ticket to superior debuffing by herself (with Dazing Assault, you're golden).

1st: Agile Maneuvers
3rd: Combat Reflexes
4th: Combat Expertise
5th: Stand Still
7th: Step Up
8th: Following Step
9th: Step Up and Strike
11th: Improved Trip
12th: Power Attack (if Strength 13) or Steady Engagement
13th: Dazing Assault (if Strength 13) or Greater Trip
15th: Steady Engagement
16th: Greater Trip
17th: -- (Critical Focus?)
19th: -- (Sickening Critical?)
20th: --

[Sayt]

No point getting agile maneuvers on a Swashbuckler, you already have Swashbuckler's Finesse, which sets your Combat maneuvers to dexterity.

[Abd al-Azrad]

I'm not sure how far down the line this suggestion might come up, but the Bodyguard (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/feats/combat-feats/bodyguard-combat) feat can open up a few options for your Swashbuckler beyond the tripping and raw damage. With Combat Reflexes and a bit of investment in your Aid Another bonuses, you can be quite annoying to your foes. They either attack your ally, prompting your Swashbucker Bodyguard to boost your ally's AC, or they waste their attack on the Swashbuckler, triggering Opportune Parry and Riposte.

The Dirty Trick feat line is insanely useful once you get to Greater Dirty Trick. Inflict the Blinded and Nauseated condition on a foe with a CMB check as part of a full attack, which lasts for 1d4 rounds.

[Extra Anchovies]

The Dirty Trick feat line is insanely useful once you get to Greater Dirty Trick. Inflict the Blinded and Nauseated condition on a foe with a CMB check as part of a full attack, which lasts for 1d4 rounds.

Nitpick: Dirty Trick can only sicken, not nauseate.

blinded, dazzled, deafened, entangled, shaken, or sickened (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Dirty-Trick)
And I'm pretty sure that sickening/fear conditions from the same source (in this case, dirty trick) don't stack to cause the next level of sickening/fear (e.g. casting Doom twice on a target doesn't make them frightened).

[Abd al-Azrad]

Thank you for the correction, Sardines. And a good point: you can only penalize the enemy's attacks, damage, saves and checks with Dirty Tricks, in addition to blinding them, deafening them, crippling their movement, etc. You can't also totally deprive them of actions.

Pretty good for a nut-shot, by my reckoning.

[Extra Anchovies]

Thank you for the correction, Sardines. And a good point: you can only penalize the enemy's attacks, damage, saves and checks with Dirty Tricks, in addition to blinding them, deafening them, crippling their movement, etc. You can't also totally deprive them of actions.

Pretty good for a nut-shot, by my reckoning.

Indeed. Kidney-punchin' is fun, and throwing sand in people's faces (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTAXUYLbFYk) works very well with Sneak Attack.

[Der_DWSage]

Nitpick: Dirty Trick can only sicken, not nauseate.

Counter-nitpick:It can nauseate, but only at level 11+ (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-trick-master-combat), and it can still be removed with a standard action.

That said, I still highly recommend Dirty Trick over tripping. Getting both is awesome, but you really want Step Up before that. Dirty Trick is much more swashbucklery to me, and if nothing else, you'll at least rob them of their ability to perform full attack routines. Tripping becomes nearly impossible against things that have a lot of legs, too. And Disarming is kind of a trap option-it's only effective against humanoid opponents that rely on weapons. If they don't have a gauntlet that locks it to their hands. It's kind of a niche thing, but becomes far better in an urban campaign.

To counterpoint JaronK, I'd recommend the following feat loadout.

1st: Agile Maneuvers
3rd: Combat Expertise
4th: Improved Dirty Trick
5th: Step Up
7th: Quick Dirty Trick
8th: Greater Dirty Trick
9th: Combat Reflexes
11th: Dirty Trick Master
12th: Lunge
13th: Stand Still
15th: Piranha Strike
16th: --
17th: -- (Critical Focus?)
19th: -- (Sickening Critical?)
20th: --

[Extra Anchovies]

Counter-nitpick:It can nauseate, but only at level 11+ (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-trick-master-combat), and it can still be removed with a standard action.

In addition to increasing the duration of the condition as normal, you cause an opponent who is dazzled to become dazed, entangled to become pinned, shaken to become frightened, and sickened to become nauseated.

become dazed

lasts for 1d4 rounds

Did... did Pathfinder just provide a legitimately worthwhile strategy that involves the dazzled condition?

[Abd al-Azrad]

Did... did Pathfinder just provide a legitimately worthwhile strategy that involves the dazzled condition?

If so, this is your feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spear-dancer).

Holy wow. That's a build concept right there.

[Extra Anchovies]

If so, this is your feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spear-dancer).

Holy wow. That's a build concept right there.

Yes indeed it is. I... really want to do this now, actually. *begins scribbling madly* *bookmarks thread* *continues scribbling*

[dascarletm]

haha!

You guys are awesome, I think I can put together quite the dirty swashbuckler with this....

Also, I must make a speardancer now. I'll put that in the pile of characters I need to play.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Just saying, but I'm pretty sure you can't take the Standard action to remove the Dirty Trick effect when you can take no actions. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Dazed)

[Akolbi]

Not sure how it interacts with swashbucklers, but dervish dance is something to look into.

[Extra Anchovies]

Just saying, but I'm pretty sure you can't take the Standard action to remove the Dirty Trick effect when you can take no actions. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Dazed)

Nauseated prevents removal as well, since it limits targets to only a single move.

Is there any way to add two dirty trick effects at once? Dazed + blinded would be awesome, especially on a...

Wait.

I think we've found something that the Pathfinder Rogue can actually be good at.

The Maneuver Mastery (Dirty Trick) talent lets us use our Rogue level instead of our BAB for Dirty Trick maneuvers.

The Dirty Strike talent lets us perform a dirty trick as a free action whenever we deal sneak attack damage.

Quick Dirty Trick -> blind -> sneak attack on every subsequent attacks -> pile on every condition possible, rendering enemy dazed, blinded, shaken, and nauseated, while only giving up one attack from your TWF routine, while ripping into them with sneak attack damage. They are now in no position to retaliate (if they survived), and nearly helpless, leaving you to move on to the next target.

The only issue is that Dirty Trick Master (for Daze and Nauseate) comes online four levels later, unless the DM can be convinced to let us use Rogue level in place of BAB for dirty trick-related feats (unlikely).

[Abd al-Azrad]

Well, for this hypothetical Dirty Fighting rogue, you'd need a system of inflicting the Sickened or Dazzled conditions. Sickened can come online when you're using a Cruel weapon and firing off the Dazzling Display / Shatter Defenses combo which all rogues ought to have, but we're already eating a load of feats to make this work.

I'd be willing to say that, if you're already inflicting enough status conditions to literally nullify an enemy's position, your damage output is more or less a matter of cleanup. So you could pass on the extended TWF chain, free up some feats, and focus on that Spear Dancing - you already need Weapon Focus for Dazzling Display, after all, so it shares the prereq (and Weapon Focus isn't a bad feat for a low-AB fighter).

The best thing about this hypothetical dirty fighter, is how dirty these tricks are. POKEYOUREYESOUT and now you can't take any more actions.

[Prime32]

If so, this is your feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spear-dancer).

Holy wow. That's a build concept right there.Nah, it only works if you were dazzled by another dirty trick.

I tried to put together all the dirty trick support I could find (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2342.140;msg=259009) a while back, if it's helpful.

[Abd al-Azrad]

Nah, it only works if you were dazzled by another dirty trick.

I tried to put together all the dirty trick support I could find (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2342.140;msg=259009) a while back, if it's helpful.

Never mind then. I mean, obviously Dirty Trick Master is still a seriously powerful feat, but it's a little disappointing to lose the reason to build yourself around Dazzling a foe.

[T.G. Oskar]

To counterpoint JaronK, I'd recommend the following feat loadout.

...Huh? I do homebrew of questionably good quality, 40+ post-long comprehensive optimization guides and churn 5,000 characters per post without breaking a sweat, but not Tier systems.

--

Regarding Trip vs. Dirty Trick: the former is good to provoke attacks of opportunity when standing from prone, which relates to additional damage. With Steady Engagement and Stand Still, you can make people regret moving around your threatened area by stopping them and THEN making them prone. Ideally, the best is to have both rather than only one.

There's...several ways to impose the Dazzled condition via feats, so Blindness is not so hard to get. Likewise with Sickened; the Sickening Critical is the best example that comes to mind, and so does the Cruel weapon enhancement alongside a way to shaken the target.

Also: as mentioned before, Piranha Strike won't work with Rapiers, because it only works with light weapons. The OP's Wife chose an archetype that uses Rapiers above and beyond everything else, so it's likely that she won't use anything but a Rapier, making Piranha Strike irrelevant.

Finally: as mentioned on the FAQ, Weapon Finesse applies only to disarm, sunder and trip; Agile Maneuvers applies to all weapons. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-finesse-combat---final) Furthermore, the OP's wife will only have access to Weapon Finesse with her rapier; if she's unarmed, she'll have to use Strength for combat maneuvers, unless she has Agile Maneuvers. The feat is still useful in that regard.

[Faily]

Agile, not adaptive.

But Piranha Strike doesn't work with rapiers.

Thank you. My brain was completely stuck on Adaptive.

And my bad on Piranha Strike. I'm too used to GMs ruling that it works with Finesse-weapons, so to not hamstring the finesse-fighters further. :smallsmile: