Make Rulings Not Rules Workshop

[Galen]

Here, we shall explore the wonderful world of 5E's Make Rulings Not Rules mentality. The thread will run thus:

The first poster will present a situation in which a player will attempt to take an action, one that's not covered by straightforward rules. The next poster will present a DM's adjudication of the situation. The adjudication will generally consist of:

- What needs to be rolled
- Vs. what target number or DC (or opposed check, if applies, etc)
- What happens in case of success
- What happens in case of failure
("there's no chance of success" is a legitimate answer, but should probably be avoided except for the most egregious and outlandish attempts. "It succeeds automatically" is also legitimate, but should probably be reserved for trivial tasks like walking up the stairs)

Example shamefully stolen from another thread (c) JoeJ:

Player: I want to jump up on the boulder and do a flip over the bugbear to gain a better position.
DM: That sounds pretty hard, so I guess a DC of 20 should be about right. Roll your Acrobatics. If you make it, I'll let you have advantage on your first attack. If you miss, you'll fall prone.

I'll start with: the Indiana Jones Idol-switching maneuver. For those of you who haven't seen Indiana Jones, imagine there's a golden idol on a pedestal. Your DM notes say the moment it's taken off the pedestal, a pressure plate springs a nasty trap. A player character tries to swipe the golden idol, and at the same time replace it with a rock of equal weight to avoid triggering the trap.

As a DM, what do you say to that?

[Shadow]

I'll start with: the Indiana Jones Idol-switching maneuver. For those of you who haven't seen Indiana Jones, imagine there's a golden idol on a pedestal. Your DM notes say the moment it's taken off the pedestal, a pressure plate springs a nasty trap. A player character tries to swipe the golden idol, and at the same time replace it with a rock of equal weight to avoid triggering the trap.

As a DM, what do you say to that?

Dexterity check, proficiency in slieght of hand or thieves' tools applies, hard DC 20
Success: trap does not spring
Failure: trap springs, no retry

Next scenario:
You are climbing a rope up a cliff and need to reach the top. Enemies drop their own ropes and begin climbing down toward you. When they reach you, combat will ensue and they'll be fighting while climbing (or fall to their deaths). Your player asks if he can tie himself into a psuedo-harness before the enemies get to him and what effect it will have if he does so?
What do you answer?

[MaxWilson]

I'll start with: the Indiana Jones Idol-switching maneuver. For those of you who haven't seen Indiana Jones, imagine there's a golden idol on a pedestal. Your DM notes say the moment it's taken off the pedestal, a pressure plate springs a nasty trap. A player character tries to swipe the golden idol, and at the same time replace it with a rock of equal weight to avoid triggering the trap.

As a DM, what do you say to that?

There are two things that need to be true in order for the trap not to go off: you need to guess the weight of the idol correctly, and you need to swap them smoothly.

How difficult it is to swap them smoothly depends on how cunningly the trap was made, so I'll say it's an opposed roll between you and the trap makers. I have no idea how hard it is to make a weighted pit-trap with stone age technology, but they got to try it over and over until it worked so I'll give them a basic +2 proficiency bonus but they can roll with advantage.

However, this only works if you guessed the right weight. For this I'll say it's an opposed roll still, but it's a passive Investigation check on your part vs. a straight-up d20 + 2 roll on their part to see how sensitive they made their device. If your Investigation beats their roll, you guessed the weight closely enough to be within the parameters for their device. The passive Investigation check need not be made by the same character who makes the Dex roll.

Edit: forgot the consequences.

In case of failure: a giant boulder drops from the ceiling and begins to chase you. If it ever enters your square, take 8d10 + 14 points of damage (double the damage from a Fire Giant's thrown boulder), Dex save for half. It stops at the mouth of the cave.

In case of success: nothing seems to happen.

[CyberThread]

I disagree on opposing rolls in the context of static items like traps. The item would have a set Dc that the player either makes or fails. You can use other skills to try and make the task easier but the dc should be set in stone. You should have that number figured out before the players reach the table.

[Ghost Nappa]

Here, we shall explore the wonderful world of 5E's Make Rulings Not Rules mentality. The thread will run thus:

The first poster will present a situation in which a player will attempt to take an action, one that's not covered by straightforward rules. The next poster will present a DM's adjudication of the situation. The adjudication will generally consist of:

- What needs to be rolled
- Vs. what target number or DC (or opposed check, if applies, etc)
- What happens in case of success
- What happens in case of failure
("there's no chance of success" is a legitimate answer, but should probably be avoided except for the most egregious and outlandish attempts. "It succeeds automatically" is also legitimate, but should probably be reserved for trivial tasks like walking up the stairs)

Example shamefully stolen from another thread (c) JoeJ:


I'll start with: the Indiana Jones Idol-switching maneuver. For those of you who haven't seen Indiana Jones, imagine there's a golden idol on a pedestal. Your DM notes say the moment it's taken off the pedestal, a pressure plate springs a nasty trap. A player character tries to swipe the golden idol, and at the same time replace it with a rock of equal weight to avoid triggering the trap.

As a DM, what do you say to that?

The player(s) will be warned that what they're attempting to do is going to have fairly obvious consequences if they fail and that it will be difficult to successfully achieve.


1) Gold is quite heavy so the player must be capable of identifying something heavy enough to replace with the statue. This will NOT be explicitly mentioned to the players except to anyone who can pass a Passive Investigation check of 15.
2) Anyone who out loud mentions anything related to the weight of the replacement will allow a group Investigation check.
3)Replacing a heavy statue with a heavy object is Hard. Dex(Sleight of Hand) DC 20 to successfully replace. 15-19 successfully swipes the statue but the replacement was placed improperly and will fall off of the pedestal in 2 rounds from its momentum.
10 to 14 results in the replacement falling off (and potentially shattering based on the object) in 1 round.
9 and lower struggles to move with the statue at all, and suffers a one time -5 penalty to their next movement before they manage to successfully re-balance. Additionally, the trap has now gone off.

The party can try and re-balance the replacement, run for it, or escape by other means like teleportation based on the situation.




Next scenario:
You are climbing a rope up a cliff and need to reach the top. Enemies drop their own ropes and begin climbing down toward you. When they reach you, combat will ensue and they'll be fighting while climbing (or fall to their deaths). Your player asks if he can tie himself into a psuedo-harness before the enemies get to him and what effect it will have if he does so?
What do you answer?

DC 10 to successfully tie 1 "harness knot." +5 to the DC after each subsequent success (there is less rope and less maneuverability). Each success will increase the amount of time it takes for the enemy to try and cut their rope (3 rounds by default, +1 for each knot).
Any player attempting to reinforce their rope in combat grants anyone attacking them advantage.
Enemies do not make attack rolls against the rope but instead make a Strength check based on the quality of the rope (unsure on the numbers). That consumes their standard action.

[MaxWilson]

I disagree on opposing rolls in the context of static items like traps. The item would have a set Dc that the player either makes or fails. You can use other skills to try and make the task easier but the dc should be set in stone. You should have that number figured out before the players reach the table.

Set DC and opposed roll are equivalent in this context.

[D-naras]

Dexterity check, proficiency in slieght of hand or thieves' tools applies, hard DC 20
Success: trap does not spring
Failure: trap springs, no retry

Next scenario:
You are climbing a rope up a cliff and need to reach the top. Enemies drop their own ropes and begin climbing down toward you. When they reach you, combat will ensue and they'll be fighting while climbing (or fall to their deaths). Your player asks if he can tie himself into a psuedo-harness before the enemies get to him and what effect it will have if he does so?
What do you answer?

I would ask for a DC 10 Dexterity or Strength check, with a success counting like a successful use of the climber's kit (You can use the climber’s kit as an action to anchor yourself; when you do, you can’t fall more than 25 feet from the point where you anchored yourself, and you can't climb more than 25 feet away from that point without undoing the anchor.). A failure means that he still manages to do it but he doesn't climb this turn.

My scenario, and a bit more basic than that:
A fight erupts and a player wants to intimidate an intelligent opponent that can understand his language. Besides the obvious of having him roll Charisma (Intimidation) (or Strength for buff characters), how do you adjudicate that? I am interested in what seems fair to you. What's the range, what does it do, what is the DC, how long does the result last.

[Shadow]

My scenario, and a bit more basic than that:
A fight erupts and a player wants to intimidate an intelligent opponent that can understand his language. Besides the obvious of having him roll Charisma (Intimidation) (or Strength for buff characters), how do you adjudicate that? I am interested in what seems fair to you. What's the range, what does it do, what is the DC, how long does the result last.

Str/Cha (intimidation) vs the enemy's Wisdom score as an action
Range (since you specifically asked): Cha: range 50 feet, Str: range 20 feet
Failure: nothing happens, retry at cumulative +2 DC
Success: enemy attacks the player at disadvantage until a successful attack is rolled, not repeatable after a success (only works once on any given enemy).

And I'm not feeling very inspired at the moment, so I'll let someone else create the next scenario.

[MaxWilson]

My scenario, and a bit more basic than that:
A fight erupts and a player wants to intimidate an intelligent opponent that can understand his language. Besides the obvious of having him roll Charisma (Intimidation) (or Strength for buff characters), how do you adjudicate that? I am interested in what seems fair to you. What's the range, what does it do, what is the DC, how long does the result last.

It depends on the scenario. If the creature is alone, a successful Intimidation check means it likely won't initiate combat at all unless desperately hungry. If we're talking about intimidation a goblin mook under the control of a goblin boss, an Intimidation check might mean it attacks half-heartedly (with disadvantage) or forgoes attacks entirely in favor of Dodging. Then when it gets hit, it either takes the excuse to run away or plays dead. If you can kill the goblin boss, it will likewise run away. Because, honestly, it shouldn't be that hard to scare a couple of goblins into realizing that adventurers view them as nothing but walking piles of XP. The wonder is that they don't run away sooner.

As for DCs and difficulty: also depends heavily on the situation. In particular, if the goblins outnumber the adventurers by a factor of 2 or more, Intimidation will be much harder. In fact, for a ruling, it seems fair to say that DC for Intimidation is 10 * (goblin : adventurer) ratio. If there are 4 adventurers and 2 goblins, DC is only 5. If there are 8 goblins, DC is 20--they think they've got the upper hand. Intimidation is basically about causing the goblins to re-evaluate your threat profile. Range: depends on what kind of intimidating action you are doing. Flexing your muscles does nothing. Yelling in their faces: only at short range. Shooting arrows at them: whatever the range is of your weapon.

I'd let you do Intimidation as a bonus action on a goblin of your choice after any successful attack. Success applies the penalties as above.

[Totema]

Here's a situation that historically comes up very frequently with my playgroup: Catching a falling character. I look forward to reading responses. :smallbiggrin:

[JFahy]

Here's a situation that historically comes up very frequently with my playgroup: Catching a falling character. I look forward to reading responses. :smallbiggrin:

Intentionally not thinking too long about this, to simulate in-game-ness.

The catcher must move to the point the faller is about to slam into.
The catcher makes a strength check. DC is (faller's total weight/10lb) + (fall distance/10ft).
If the catcher is a larger size than the faller, they get advantage on the check.

(The DCs are going to be unmanageably high for armored characters
and for most medium-sized males, which is realistic-ish. As an additional
perk, dividing both things by 10 is easy to remember. If you want more
successful catches, replace the 10lb divisor with 15lb or even 20lb.)

Success:
Damage is reduced by 1d6, and an additional 1d6 for every 1 by which the
check beat the DC. (I'm aware this makes it possible to negate really insane
falls, which I think is good theater. If you prefer realistic physics, then skip
this post; there's almost no way for an adult to appreciably cushion the fall
of another adult over 10' or longer drops.)

Failure:
The would-be catcher takes some bludgeoning damage. Pick a number based
on their relative sizes, armor levels, and the gallantry of the attempt. :)

[JAL_1138]

Here's a situation that historically comes up very frequently with my playgroup: Catching a falling character. I look forward to reading responses. :smallbiggrin:

I'd need to see the exact situation, as it's very facts-dependent to me. Is it an unarmored gnome wizard with 8 STR and no athletics proficiency trying to catch a half-orc fighter in fullplate (...for some unfathomable reason)? That's not gonna be noticed by the half-orc (normal fall damage) and do the same amount of fall damage to the gnome, because you just got hit with a 300-lb tin can traveling at high speed. No check. Dex save to dodge (DC 10) for the wizard if the player comes to their senses before getting squished.
Whereas the half-orc fighter with 15+ for Strength, and Athletics proficiency, might be able to catch the gnome wizard for 1/4 damage to the fighter (minimum 1, round up) and 1/2 damage (minimum 1, round up) to the gnome, with no damage at all to either at 10ft, on a DC 15 Str (athletics), failure is full damage to both.

EDIT: Full damage on fail to the Half-Orc is too high on reflection. Half the damage taken by the gnome seems fitting for having an unarmored gnome land on you.

ALSO EDIT: Catching a character about to go off a cliff instead of cushioning a landing: Pick a reasonable ability and skill (STR(Athl), STR(Acro), DEX(Acro), etc.) and hit DC 15 to catch, failure misses them and they fall; DC 15 to hang on, fail by less than 5 and you drop them, more than 5 and you go over the side too. Increases by 5 per size category larger, decreases by 5 per size category smaller.

[Baptor]

All the scenarios are answered and no one suggested a new one, so here goes...

I am a rogue in a crowded ballroom. I need to assassinate one of the nobles here. I have a poisoned stiletto that will kill him, but I can't be seen doing it. What do I need to do to fade into the crowd, sneak up to the noble, slip the stiletto into his side, and fade back in and get away before anyone notices?

[Galen]

I'd say make an attack roll and a stealth check, both at a disadvantage (because you're trying to do both at the same time).
The attack roll is against his normal AC, and the stealth check is against the highest passive perception of anyone around

Success on attack but not stealth: you kill him, but someone notices.
Success on stealth but not attack: you miss, but no one notices, you can try again.
Success on neither: you miss him, and someone notices you attacked him.
Success on both: you did it, baby!

So, let's say, noble's AC is 13 (he's got Mage Armor on, I don't know), and someone with passive perception 15 is present, you need to roll:

Attack vs. AC 13 at disadvantage
Stealth vs. 15 at disadvantage

Disadvantage on Stealth can be removed if the assassin has an ally create a minor distraction at the other end of the ballroom.

edit: Now that I think of it, a case can be made in favor of Sleight of Hand instead of Stealth.

[Shadow]

In the above example, if I were the player, I'd suggest that the attack roll should be with advantage due to the defender being unaware of the attack, and that it would therefore be rolled normally due to cancellation.
The sleight/stealth check at disadvantage works for me.

[mephnick]

See, I'd make it a pure slight of hand check, (15-18ish) , and nothing else.

You aren't sneaking or neccessarily disguised, you're just one dude in a crowded ballroom. Slipping the knife in is the only hard part about this situation.

If someone notices right away, then I might call for a sneak or disguise check, but if people notice the slight of hand you're effed anyway.

(I'm not even sure I'd bother with an attack roll, it's impossible to miss)

[Sartharina]

My solution to the "Tie a harness to keep from falling" - if you only have one action, DC 10 Dexterity check, +Proficiency if you're proficient with climber's kits or Survival.

Success - You cannot fall from your current position (unless your rope gets cut). Failure - Your harness hinders you, imposing disadvantage on dex checks. Critical failure - Your harness falls completely apart.

New situation: The party decides to use its wagon, pulled by a team of oxen, to charge a goblin makeshift fortification/roadblock, with the Tiefling using Thaumaturgy to make the ground shake.

[mephnick]

To explain myself a bit better and my general theory of making up checks on the fly: You roll the dice to answer questions. The question here isn't "Can he stab this dude?", it's "Can he stab this dude without anyone noticing?" The stabbing has nothing to do with the question that needs answered. So a simple sleight of hand check against the highest passive perception in the room. This is how you make simple on the fly rulings IMO.

Ok, my simple situation, also comes up often in media:

In a chase, jumping off a roof or high position to hit and tackle a fleeing opponent below you.

[Forum Explorer]

Stealth check at disadvantage

Attack roll at advantage.

Under the logic that it's easy enough to get close, and he isn't expecting an attack so hitting isn't too difficult, but it's hard for no one to notice that you did it.

[Shadow]

New situation: The party decides to use its wagon, pulled by a team of oxen, to charge a goblin makeshift fortification/roadblock, with the Tiefling using Thaumaturgy to make the ground shake.

Wisdom (animal handling) DC 15 to get the oxen to charge the fortification.
Oxen then make a Str check (DC dependant upon how strong the roadblock is) to break through, with a -5 to that DC (one step easier) due to it being unstable from the shaking ground.

And so we don't skip any:

Ok, my simple situation, also comes up often in media:

In a chase, jumping off a roof or high position to hit and tackle a fleeing opponent below you.

[Galen]

In a chase, jumping off a roof or high position to hit and tackle a fleeing opponent below you.I'd just follow the rules for Shoving a Creature, but give Advantage on the opposed check due to jumping from higher ground. If the height is such that would call for a falling damage, jumper takes full falling damage on a failed check. On a success, falling damage is divided evenly between jumper and whoever he jumped on.

[JAL_1138]

All the scenarios are answered and no one suggested a new one, so here goes...

I am a rogue in a crowded ballroom. I need to assassinate one of the nobles here. I have a poisoned stiletto that will kill him, but I can't be seen doing it. What do I need to do to fade into the crowd, sneak up to the noble, slip the stiletto into his side, and fade back in and get away before anyone notices?

Attack roll with Advantage to insta-kill. DEX(Stealth) or CHA(Deception) vs passive perception for Stealth and vs Insight for Deception not to be noticed going up to him, DEX(Sleight-of-Hand) or DEX(Stealth)
vs passive perception to not be noticed stabbing him. On success of the stabbing and not being noticed stabbing, previous sneaking-up roll lets you get away fine. On fail of the stabbing or the not-being-noticed-while-stabbing, enter initiative, DEX(Stealth) with disadvantage to get lost in the panicked crowd if you run. Disadvantage negated by being a size category smaller than the crowd's average.

All perception checks against you get advantage if you're one size category larger than the average of the crowd, e.g., they're all halflings and you're a human.

Scenario: Trying to create forged bookkeeping entries to get a corrupt city official with good PR among the nobility caught for embezzling.

[Galen]

Scenario: Trying to create forged bookkeeping entries to get a corrupt city official with good PR among the nobility caught for embezzling.
Intelligence check, proficiency with Forgery Kit applies. DM makes roll in secret, since the player has no way to know if he created a good forgery or not.
This check is opposed by the Investigation check of anyone who is going to to examine those papers.

[Beacon of Chaos]

Pretty cool idea for a thread!

Since there's no current unsolved scenario: A player is chasing someone through a jungle with plenty of hindering terrian. The player wants to know if he can swing from vines, Tarzan style, to catch up with his target.

[Daishain]

Pretty cool idea for a thread!

Since there's no current unsolved scenario: A player is chasing someone through a jungle with plenty of hindering terrian. The player wants to know if he can swing from vines, Tarzan style, to catch up with his target.
Even if there are vines suitable for this in the fantasy jungle (Earth iirc doesn't actually have anything appropriate for a medium creature to swing on in that manner, in spite of what the movies tell you) The only case where this would be possible would overall actually be slower than walking, but rule of cool says to leave the pesky physics out of this. Of course, ROC doesn't state it has to be easy.

2 vines per round. DC 10 acrobatics check for each vine. Failure means falling and probably taking damage from said fall. Success means a proper swing, launch, and grab cycle with an overall speed of 30' per round. Success by ten or more means a temporary speed boost, 40' speed for the round. Failure by five or more (or a nat1), means doing a "George of the Jungle" impression, then falling.

New scenario: Player wants to ram a massive sea creature with the prow of his ship

[Beacon of Chaos]

New scenario: Player wants to ram a massive sea creature with the prow of his ship

I'd say this is a Dexterity check to steer the ship correctly, at disadvantage if travelling against the wind. DC would be 15, assuming the creature is moving at a normal pace or attacking, higher if it's actively dodging. I'd also say that a DC 10 Charisma check to rally the crew to set the sails properly gives advantage on the DEX check. Success deals 1d6 damage per 10ft of the ship's speed. A hit also means that everyone on board must make a DC 10 acrobatics check or be knocked prone (or thrown overboard on a natural 1) unless they are tied to something.


Scenario: Player attempts to distract the BBEG by challenging him to a dance-off.

[broodax]

I'd say this is a Dexterity check to steer the ship correctly, at disadvantage if travelling against the wind. DC would be 15, assuming the creature is moving at a normal pace or attacking, higher if it's actively dodging. I'd also say that a DC 10 Charisma check to rally the crew to set the sails properly gives advantage on the DEX check. Success deals 1d6 damage per 10ft of the ship's speed. A hit also means that everyone on board must make a DC 10 acrobatics check or be knocked prone (or thrown overboard on a natural 1) unless they are tied to something.


Sea Vehicles are tools, so give proficiency bonus if they have it. I also think Dex is the wrong ability, but you could go a number of ways there - Int to plan the tack correctly, Wis to read the wind, or Dex as you said. And the DC should be the creature's AC.

[JoeJ]

Scenario: Player attempts to distract the BBEG by challenging him to a dance-off.

To make the challenge, a contest of the PC's Persuasion vs. the BBEG's Wisdom. If this is a diversion or ruse of some sort, proficiency in Insight would apply for the BBEG.

For the dance-off itself, a straight contest of Performance vs. Performance (using the player's choice of either Charisma for trying to impress an audience, or Dexterity for just showing off how skillfully they can do the moves) could handle it quickly. But I'd probably make it more interesting by having it go to the best three out of five contests.

[Beacon of Chaos]

Sea Vehicles are tools, so give proficiency bonus if they have it. I also think Dex is the wrong ability, but you could go a number of ways there - Int to plan the tack correctly, Wis to read the wind, or Dex as you said. And the DC should be the creature's AC.
Yeah, I'll go along with that, though I still think Dex to control the ship properly is the most relevant ability.

[JoeJ]

A PC wants to bypass a pit by using her whip to snag a ceiling beam and swinging across. (We'll assume that there is a beam close enough.)

[Sartharina]

Dex check that needs Acrobatics and Whip proficiencies - you get your proficiency bonus check if you have at least one, but suffer disadvantage if you don't have the other. DC 13

[Baptor]

Whip attack roll vs AC 15. Strength check (DC 10) to swing across. If the beam is made of wood and the character is carrying a sufficiently heavy load 100lbs of gear or more, there is a 50% chance the beam snaps in half as he swings across. He can, of course, unburden himself before swinging.

New Scenario:
A dragon swoops in to make a claw attack. As he passes, another character with a rope and grappling hook wants to throw it, catch the dragon, and swing onto his back.

[tcrudisi]

Whip attack roll vs AC 15. Strength check (DC 10) to swing across. If the beam is made of wood and the character is carrying a sufficiently heavy load 100lbs of gear or more, there is a 50% chance the beam snaps in half as he swings across. He can, of course, unburden himself before swinging.

New Scenario:
A dragon swoops in to make a claw attack. As he passes, another character with a rope and grappling hook wants to throw it, catch the dragon, and swing onto his back.

Sounds like a modified grapple attempt to me. Use a reaction to make the check. Minor changes to the grappled condition ensue: The dragon can still move, the dragon cannot attack the character, and the character has disadvantage on all attack rolls against the dragon from being mounted on a hostile creature that does not want him there. I'd also allow the dragon to make athletics/acrobatics competitive challenges to shake the player off (the player has advantage due to the rope).

New Scenario:
The player sees an enemy use a poison/flask/whatever in combat. That enemy is now dead, but the player wants to loot and use said poison/flask/whatever in this same combat.

[Daishain]

New Scenario:
The player sees an enemy use a poison/flask/whatever in combat. That enemy is now dead, but the player wants to loot and use said poison/flask/whatever in this same combat.

Perception check to locate the flask without taking attention away from combat. (DC10 if out in the open, DC15 if at least partially tucked away, DC20 if hidden from direct view) No check is necessary if character already knows exactly where the flask was stowed by the enemy. Check may be attempted 1/round

DC15 dex check (sleight of hand or acrobatics proficiency may apply) as a bonus action to retrieve flask without dropping guard.

If either check fails, character can make a more in depth search and retrieval, but burn a standard action to do so, and may provoke an attack of opportunity from enemies in melee range.

Once flask is in possession, normal rules for item use apply.

New scenario: Player has a tame and trained roc he uses as a mount. He wishes to drop large rocks onto a specific target from above. (either one large boulder or a net full of head sized rocks depending on the nature of the target)The bird in question has not been specifically trained for this task, but is reasonably clever and obedient to the player. In addition, the release point will be at least 500' in the air, both to avoid the player's pet being filled with arrow holes, and give the rocks some real punch behind them.

[Shining Wrath]

Perception check to locate the flask without taking attention away from combat. (DC10 if out in the open, DC15 if at least partially tucked away, DC20 if hidden from direct view) No check is necessary if character already knows exactly where the flask was stowed by the enemy. Check may be attempted 1/round

DC15 dex check (sleight of hand or acrobatics proficiency may apply) as a bonus action to retrieve flask without dropping guard.

If either check fails, character can make a more in depth search and retrieval, but burn a standard action to do so, and may provoke an attack of opportunity from enemies in melee range.

Once flask is in possession, normal rules for item use apply.

New scenario: Player has a tame and trained roc he uses as a mount. He wishes to drop large rocks onto a specific target from above. (either one large boulder or a net full of head sized rocks depending on the nature of the target)The bird in question has not been specifically trained for this task, but is reasonably clever and obedient to the player. In addition, the release point will be at least 500' in the air, both to avoid the player's pet being filled with arrow holes, and give the rocks some real punch behind them.

In this case the skill involved in successfully dropping the rocks from the Roc (and I saw what you did there) is pretty much the same as a thrown weapon. Make a ranged touch attack, with disadvantage because you are 500' away, but with canceling advantage if the enemy doesn't know you're delivering death from above.

If you can do a power dive, you can use the Roc's strength for the attack rather than your own. This requires a DC 15 Wisdom(Animal Handling) check, and a clear sky so that you can get a couple of thousand feet up before diving. As DM I do not suggest the dive bombing maneuver but allow it if the player comes up with it.

EDIT: My scenario. Evil dude is holding Innocent Victim in the classic "Left hand grasps shirt, right hand holds dagger to throat, bad guy keeps IV between him and the PCs" pose. A PC attempts to hit the evil dude's right hand with a projectile weapon of some sort. So there's 3 questions (at least):

How difficult is the called shot
What happens on a miss
What happens on a hit

[JAL_1138]

New scenario: Player has a tame and trained roc he uses as a mount. He wishes to drop large rocks onto a specific target from above. (either one large boulder or a net full of head sized rocks depending on the nature of the target)The bird in question has not been specifically trained for this task, but is reasonably clever and obedient to the player. In addition, the release point will be at least 500' in the air, both to avoid the player's pet being filled with arrow holes, and give the rocks some real punch behind them.

Like Shining Wrath said, Thrown Weapon rules probably work best here. But I'd take the size of the boulder or net of small rocks into account (limited by how much the roc could be airborne with)--the net might be treated as an AoE, depending on circumstances, and so might a very wide boulder. Enemy might get a dex save with advantage for no damage if they see it coming; if it's being dropped on a structure that complicates things.

Results...from 500ft...depending on what you're dropping it on, I 'd probably bring the chunky salsa rule into effect and deem a hit to be an autokill. Probably not against the Tarrasque or a dragon, but against most critters, that'd be *splat* and done. If it's on an open plain, it would create an area of difficult terrain wherever it landed (on a miss, roll to see how many 5' increments from target and what direction). On a structure, it would be treated like a shot from a siege engine. It might collapse a crumbling tower or punch a hole in a bridge or roof, or sink a ship (over several rounds as it takes on water). A miss on a structure, if the attack roll was close but no cigar--missed by one or something--might mean the enemy needs to make a Dex save vs your attack roll or take half damage from debris and get knocked prone, or even fall through the hole.

I really like in-universe cheating-b****rd tactics like this from players. :smallbiggrin:

[Shining Wrath]

Like Shining Wrath said, Thrown Weapon rules probably work best here. But I'd take the size of the boulder or net of small rocks into account (limited by how much the roc could be airborne with)--the net might be treated as an AoE, depending on circumstances, and so might a very wide boulder. Enemy might get a dex save with advantage for no damage if they see it coming; if it's being dropped on a structure that complicates things.

Results...from 500ft...depending on what you're dropping it on, I 'd probably bring the chunky salsa rule into effect and deem a hit to be an autokill. Probably not against the Tarrasque or a dragon, but against most critters, that'd be *splat* and done. If it's on an open plain, it would create an area of difficult terrain wherever it landed (on a miss, roll to see how many 5' increments from target and what direction). On a structure, it would be treated like a shot from a siege engine. It might collapse a crumbling tower or punch a hole in a bridge or roof, or sink a ship (over several rounds as it takes on water). A miss on a structure, if the attack roll was close but no cigar--missed by one or something--might mean the enemy needs to make a Dex save vs your attack roll or take half damage from debris and get knocked prone, or even fall through the hole.

I really like in-universe cheating-b****rd tactics like this from players. :smallbiggrin:

I will humbly suggest (OK, as humbly as I can manage) that the limiting factor on the size of the rock(s) is not the Roc, but the player attempting to grasp and aim said rock while remaining in whatever saddle one places on a Roc. The Roc probably has strength of 30 or close to it.

An evil DM asks the player to make an Strength(Athletics) check to not lose his position in the saddle when lifting the heavy rock off to one side, looking around it to aim, and then throwing it downward. Failure means there are TWO missiles aimed at the target, and one is going to result in chunky salsa hit or miss.

[Daishain]

Perhaps I wasn't quite clear enough. No throwing involved. Roc carries burden, and either drops it when signaled, or in the case of a net, the rider lets go of a rope causing everything to spill out.

That's why I used such a large mount as an example and not just, say, a flying wizard who's running low on ranged spells.

[Shining Wrath]

Perhaps I wasn't quite clear enough. No throwing involved. Roc carries burden, and either drops it when signaled, or in the case of a net, the rider lets go of a rope causing everything to spill out.

That's why I used such a large mount as an example and not just, say, a flying wizard who's running low on ranged spells.

Then you have the Roc make a ranged attack as though it had thrown the rock. The rider must make a Wisdom(Animal Handling) check to communicate to the Roc the desired target, DC depends upon size of target and visibility.

I still argue that the action "cause item to leave your hand, er, talons and travel through the air to strike a target" is best modeled as a ranged attack. The problem is getting the Roc to understand the concept of "target".

[Daishain]

Then you have the Roc make a ranged attack as though it had thrown the rock. The rider must make a Wisdom(Animal Handling) check to communicate to the Roc the desired target, DC depends upon size of target and visibility.

I still argue that the action "cause item to leave your hand, er, talons and travel through the air to strike a target" is best modeled as a ranged attack. The problem is getting the Roc to understand the concept of "target".
Not if you're just determining the timing. The Roc just has to be taught "when master pushes on neck at spot x, let go of the heavy thing"

In a sense the rider is making a throw, but its more a matter of understanding relative ballistics than any physical challenge. A bit like old school aerial bombers.

Heh, perhaps this case was a bit too open ended on how its handled.

[Shining Wrath]

Not if you're just determining the timing. The Roc just has to be taught "when master pushes on neck at spot x, let go of the heavy thing"

In a sense the rider is making a throw, but its more a matter of understanding relative ballistics than any physical challenge. A bit like old school aerial bombers.

Heh, perhaps this case was a bit too open ended on how its handled.

You want to model a Roc as a B-24? OK. The Roc is slightly larger and lacks machine gun turrets, but we'll let that go :smallwink:

The key skill is the rider's ability to estimate range (peering over the side of the roc) and how well trained the roc is (because he's flying probably 10 feet per second, so a half second delay in release is a 5' error).

The PCs ability to estimate range is a Wisdom(Perception) check, difficulty based on size of target and visibility. Probably 20. This is the hard part. If there's a strong wind blowing, add 5, but it has to be a strong wind to move a boulder's trajectory around by much.

The roc's responsiveness is measured by a Wisdom(Animal Handling) check. Probably 10 or 15, depending on how difficult you think training a Roc might be.

If both rolls are made, the rock lands where the PC wants it to land. For every point either roll is missed by, add 5' of miss distance, and use the usual d8 random direction method to find out where it winds up. If the rock (or net full of rocks) covers an area greater than 5', you may still hit on a close miss.

[JAL_1138]

An evil DM asks the player to make an Strength(Athletics) check to not lose his position in the saddle when lifting the heavy rock off to one side, looking around it to aim, and then throwing it downward. Failure means there are TWO missiles aimed at the target, and one is going to result in chunky salsa hit or miss.

I would agree entirely with the Athletics roll not to go over the side if I were a player attempting to drop something heavy from a high place. Even if it doesn't affect the Roc dropping a boulder, there are plenty of reasons to drop something heavy off a flying mount--an enemy who climbed on and got into Grapples with you, a large bomb with a fuse you couldn't light if the Roc was holding it, etc.


Evil dude is holding Innocent Victim in the classic "Left hand grasps shirt, right hand holds dagger to throat, bad guy keeps IV between him and the PCs" pose. A PC attempts to hit the evil dude's right hand with a projectile weapon of some sort. So there's 3 questions (at least):
How difficult is the called shot
What happens on a miss
What happens on a hit


To hit the hand specifically would be an attack vs AC at disadvantage that can't be canceled.

I also think HP doesn't do very well in these situations, so I'd use the Vitality system from d20 Star Wars, a version of which is supposed to show up in the DMG. Brief rundown for anyone unfamiliar, Vitality is the part of HP that deals with near-misses, fighting spirit, and minor injuries; Wounds is serious injuries, no one has very much of it, and losing even one point causes a lasting injury with penalties until treated.

If it hits, EvilDude drops the knife, takes normal damage to Vitality and one point of damage to Wounds, losing the use of his hand until treated.

On a miss, treat the roll as having been against the hostage's AC with Advantage, a hit dropping Vitality to 0 and dealing standard attack damage to Wounds. If the roll with Advantage would have also hit EvilDude's AC, he takes Vitality damage and a point of Wound damage and drops the knife--but it still goes through to the hostage too.

If that still misses, the shot goes wide, in which case the EvilDude continues threatening the hostage unless it becomes clear the PCs have zero regard for the hostage's safety at all, in which case he attempts to kill the hostage and tries to cheese it out of there.

Hostage gets a Dex or Con save (whichever would be higher) with disadvantage DC 15 to take damage to Vitality instead of Wounds if EvilDude stabs them (EvilDude can't miss so doesn't make an attack roll).

At any time before getting stabbed, Hostage can attempt to Escape a Grapple with disadvantage, getting away without getting stabbed on a success, likely getting stabbed on a failed roll depending on EvilDude's need to keep them alive or not; getting stabbed deals max damage to Wounds. The previous sentence contains entirely too many uses of the phrase "getting stabbed."

[Composer99]

EDIT: My scenario. Evil dude is holding Innocent Victim in the classic "Left hand grasps shirt, right hand holds dagger to throat, bad guy keeps IV between him and the PCs" pose. A PC attempts to hit the evil dude's right hand with a projectile weapon of some sort. So there's 3 questions (at least):

How difficult is the called shot
What happens on a miss
What happens on a hit



1. Target number is EvilDude AC, attack is at disadvantage and can't be cancelled out.

2. Miss within 4 hits Innocent Victim, probably killing Victim outright (oops). Miss 5 or greater goes wide.

3. Hit deals normal damage, causes EvilDude to drop dagger, and EvilDude has disadvantage that can't be cancelled out on any checks that would involve using EvilDude's right hand, until EvilDude uses curative magic or a Medicine skill check.

Sorry, don't have the imagination to come up with a scenario at the moment.

[Freelance GM]

A PC wants to bypass a pit by using her whip to snag a ceiling beam and swinging across. (We'll assume that there is a beam close enough.)

Attack roll to successfully catch the whip on the beam.

If the player beats AC5, they "succeed" in wrapping the whip around the beam, but it's not tight enough to support swinging unless they beat AC12.

If they succeed, then it's a DC10 Acrobatics check to swing over the pit. If they failed the first attack, then the Acrobatics check has Disadvantage.

If they fail with Disadvantage, the whip comes loose, and the character falls into the pit.
A normal failure botches the landing, leaving the player precariously hanging from the ledge. They must make a Strength saving throw, or fall into the pit.
Success in either case results in safely crossing the pit.

[Durazno]

My take would be that Evil Guy gets a shield bonus to his AC (the wider area that the hostage covers being cancelled out by the fact that they're mobile and don't want to be a shield.) The player makes an attack with disadvantage, and if both dice miss, they hit the hostage. If one die misses the shot goes wide. If both hit, the knife drops and the hostage gets advantage on any escape attempts they make before Evil Guy's next turn. (They probably have the action readied, so they'll make an attempt the instant they can, and maybe they'll get another shot.)

New scenario!

The party is outfitting a goofy dungeonpunk airship (we'll say it's a hydrogen balloon carrying the hull of a small sailing ship) and one of the players is, with your blessing, a mole that wants to sabotage their mission. She decides to smuggle a sheet of feather fall onto the ship for her own use and weaken the lines holding the front of the ship so that everyone above will be spilled from the deck. Ideally, the balloon will slip free moments later and drop the ship. This is expected to be her PC's last session, and if the character returns, it will be as an antagonist.

So we have three problems here. 1) How do you adjudicate the saboteur's efforts while they're outfitting the ship? 2) What chances do you give the other players to uncover her treachery? And, perhaps most important, 3) what do you do if the plan goes off without a hitch?

[Sartharina]

The sabotage would require an INT or DEX check, and proficiency with water vehicles, rope, air vehicles, land vehicles, or Thieves Tools would apply against DC 10 for the front and back... but I would not request this roll at the time of sabotage. Instead, I'd request it at the Dramatically Appropriate Moment, to see if the sabotage worked.

For detection... I'd recap what everyone's doing on the journey, and possibly leave a few roll-less clues that foreshadow the betrayal without drawing attention to themselves. If anyone other than the saboteur inspects the sabotage areas (Perfect cover for her!), there's an opposed check to see if they can detect the sabotage. If others try to keep tabs on her or each other, they'd likely get not-immediately-incriminating information on what she's doing.

If the plan goes off without a hitch, I burst out laughing as I explain how the airship falls apart, the blimp flies off into the sunset and the party finds itself plummeting to its doom - they have a few rounds to react to the disaster. The villain will get to make a "So long, Suckers!" speech if she wants - initiative check to see if she can make her daring escape before the rest of the party can try to bring her to justice.

[Freelance GM]

The party is outfitting a goofy dungeonpunk airship (we'll say it's a hydrogen balloon carrying the hull of a small sailing ship) and one of the players is, with your blessing, a mole that wants to sabotage their mission. She decides to smuggle a sheet of feather fall onto the ship for her own use and weaken the lines holding the front of the ship so that everyone above will be spilled from the deck. Ideally, the balloon will slip free moments later and drop the ship. This is expected to be her PC's last session, and if the character returns, it will be as an antagonist.

So we have three problems here. 1) How do you adjudicate the saboteur's efforts while they're outfitting the ship? 2) What chances do you give the other players to uncover her treachery? And, perhaps most important, 3) what do you do if the plan goes off without a hitch?

1) via text message.
2) Saboteur's Stealth check vs passive perception of the closest player.
3) Give the party 1 round of combat to save the airship or find a way to fall safely. Basically, six seconds of Loony Toons hang time before plummeting to a grisly doom. More rounds of combat may be added if players do things like cling to the airship as it falls, but these extra rounds are limited by the airship's starting altitude and willing suspension of disbelief regarding the time the airship takes to fall.

On a remarkably similar note, a scenario from my game I'd like some second opinions on: A villain cast Fly for a getaway, accidentally bringing a PC along for the ride. A second PC used Dimension Door to teleport close enough to grapple the villain, with the other PC clinging to the villain's ankle. How difficult is the grapple check? If either PC falls, should it be possible for the other PC to grab them, and if yes, how difficult should it be?

[mephnick]

So we have three problems here. 1) How do you adjudicate the saboteur's efforts while they're outfitting the ship? 2) What chances do you give the other players to uncover her treachery? And, perhaps most important, 3) what do you do if the plan goes off without a hitch?

Man, there's a lot going on there depending on your group of players. I'll try the first part, the second part completely depends on the circumstances at the time.

1+2) A running tally of opposed perception vs sleight of hand, or bluff vs sense motive to notice something wrong with the ship or the sabatour herself. Advantage, normal or disadvantage depending on knowledge of engineering/tools between the two sides. Perhaps first to three fail/success determines outcome. You could use Int or Wis checks for the "good" players to notice something wrong. I'd go with wisdom, working in an industrial setting it's generally your experience and gut feeling that tells you something is wrong with a piece of equipment over your intellect.

[Shadow]

On a remarkably similar note, a scenario from my game I'd like some second opinions on: A villain cast Fly for a getaway, accidentally bringing a PC along for the ride. A second PC used Dimension Door to teleport close enough to grapple the villain, with the other PC clinging to the villain's ankle. How difficult is the grapple check? If either PC falls, should it be possible for the other PC to grab them, and if yes, how difficult should it be?

The initial grapple check is rolled normally Str (athletics) vs Str or Dex (athletics).
If the caster escapes the grapple (or the grapple fails) and a character falls, it is nearly impossible that someone continue holding on (grappling) the caster while simultaneously catching (grappling) a second character.
Grapple check, twice. Once for the falling character (if the falling player wants to be caught: auto-success -OR- advantage for the grappler and disadvantage to the falling player) and once to maintain hold on the caster (disadvantage for the PC, as the caster is fighting and the PC is multitasking).
If by some miracle the player catches the falling player and maintains his hold on the caster, the opposed checks for the caster to escape are made with advantage for the caster and disadvantage for the grappler.

[mephnick]

On a remarkably similar note, a scenario from my game I'd like some second opinions on: A villain cast Fly for a getaway, accidentally bringing a PC along for the ride. A second PC used Dimension Door to teleport close enough to grapple the villain, with the other PC clinging to the villain's ankle. How difficult is the grapple check? If either PC falls, should it be possible for the other PC to grab them, and if yes, how difficult should it be?

I'd make it your basic opposed roll, but count the hanging player as assisting the grapple, thus giving advantage on the roll for the hero. If either player falls I'd make it a (15ish?) dex check to catch them in time, but probably at a disadvantage. You are also hanging on for your own life after all. So it'd be pretty hard to do, but doable for sure. It's one of those situations where you really want to make that first roll if you're going to try it.

[mephnick]

If by some miracle the player catches the falling player and maintains his hold on the caster, the opposed checks for the caster to escape are made with advantage for the caster and disadvantage for the grappler.

Yeah, I'd carry on with this too.

[mephnick]

I guess I'll throw another simple scene out there.

Picture on pg. 172 on the PH. Rogue coming in through a glass skylight at night to steal an artefact from a museum. Using ropes "Mission Impossible" style to lower herself to the item, with guards posted at the doors. How does entering the glass window stealthily work? How does lowering yourself with a tool affect your stealth? Do thieves tools apply to both? Does securing or lifting the item require a check?

[Sartharina]

Simple Stealth Check against guards is all that's needed. The tools used assist in the endevour, not create points of failure.

[Durazno]

I'd say that since you're coming from a direction nobody expected and aren't in view of anyone, your athletics or acrobatics check to lower yourself smoothly into the room could take the place of a stealth check. If you fall, you have to make a stealth check to land softly enough that guards don't immediately come running - if you're proficient in acrobatics, you get advantage in this check.

[Galen]

Since there are no unanswered scenarios, here's one, and a staple one at that:

While being chased by guards through a busy city street, a PC tries to overturn a merchant's cart to slow down his pursuers.

[Shining Wrath]

I guess I'll throw another simple scene out there.

Picture on pg. 172 on the PH. Rogue coming in through a glass skylight at night to steal an artefact from a museum. Using ropes "Mission Impossible" style to lower herself to the item, with guards posted at the doors. How does entering the glass window stealthily work? How does lowering yourself with a tool affect your stealth? Do thieves tools apply to both? Does securing or lifting the item require a check?

Is the window locked? If not, it's part of the Dexterity(Stealth) check. If it is, then some proficiency with Thieves' Tools is required to open it, and a failure by 10 or more makes a noise that will make the guards look into the room; a critical failure means the character did something atrociously bad like dropping a tool with sufficient force that the guards know to look at the window. Once the guards start looking into the room, the chance that they will do so again goes up.

Once the window is open, Dexterity(Stealth) to lower the character quietly. Grant advantage if the character can make a DC 15 Dexterity(Acrobatics) check.

Is the artifact in a locked case? If so, repeat the window opening scenario. This time, though, if the guards look into the room, they see the character.

They may do so, anyway; assign a random "bad luck" chance for a guard to look into the room, which goes up if noise was made getting through the window. This "bad luck" chance goes up with the number and quality of guards, which in turn corresponds to the value of the artifact; presumably the lich-king keeps the +17 Lichbane sword guarded rather well, while the Wand of Facial Tissue Creation in the Gnomish Museum of Unlikely Magic might have less security.

So even a character that succeeds on all their rolls might be spotted, depending on the quality of the security. High reward = high risk.

Other than that, proficiency with lock picks and some acrobatics, you're golden.


Since there are no unanswered scenarios, here's one, and a staple one at that:

While being chased by guards through a busy city street, a PC tries to overturn a merchant's cart to slow down his pursuers.

Strength(Athletics) check, DC depends on the size and weight of the cart. Upsetting an apple cart is easier than upsetting a wagon carrying 50 barrels of beer.

EDIT:

New scenario. Party being pursued by baddies want to barricade a door which opens into the room they just entered. Room contains furniture, party has assortment of usual equipment packs that come with backgrounds (explorers packs, dungeoneers' packs) so they have access to things like rope and pitons and crowbars. They have 5 rounds before something large, ugly, not particularly bright, and rather strong hits the other side of the door. Ogre, troll, hill giant, whatever is level-appropriate.

[Sartharina]

In the stealth situation, I'd have the stealth vs. perception check handle the odds of a guard looking into the room while the thief is there. The roll of the d20 is the "Bad luck check."

The DC of the STR check to bust down the door increases by as much as 5, depending on what the party does.

Or... the door opens outward. ZOINKS!

[Galen]

Strength(Athletics) check, DC depends on the size and weight of the cart. Upsetting an apple cart is easier than upsetting a wagon carrying 50 barrels of beer.I was actually looking for more elaboration here. What happens if the cart is overturned? Does it slow the pursuit? By how much? etc.

[Shadow]

I was actually looking for more elaboration here. What happens if the cart is overturned? Does it slow the pursuit? By how much? etc.

Depends on what was on the cart.
The space (or spaces) becomes difficult terrain, which possibly slows the pursuer(s) down a bit if they can't go around it (or jump it with Str/athletics), but beyond that the contents of the cart matter.
Apples? Dexterity (acrobatics) to keep balance, as an example.

[Sartharina]

I'd say the cart would turn an area behind it into difficult terrain, slowing down pursuit... and since it's probably not tactical movement, you can make a stealth check to get lost in the confusion for a few rounds.

[Knaight]

I was actually looking for more elaboration here. What happens if the cart is overturned? Does it slow the pursuit? By how much? etc.

I'd give the pursuers a choice - either they walk instead of running, or they get to start rolling dexterity checks against DC 10 to not fall over (I'm assuming a fruit cart because that is pretty much the cart tipping trope). Then there's the cart itself - it can just be vaulted if they get there, by standard jump rules, or it can be climbed, taking into account the extra climbing time.

With that said, it's a shame that chases didn't get a proper subsystem. It's the one big action scene that isn't combat, and really deserves more attention than it gets in basically any game.

[Shining Wrath]

I was actually looking for more elaboration here. What happens if the cart is overturned? Does it slow the pursuit? By how much? etc.

Oh, what other people said: difficult terrain. But if you are running up a hill and you overturn a wagon full of barrels, you just turned the pursuers into Mario from Donkey Kong. Those with poor rolls in Athletics or Acrobatics gain experience in Constitution(Endure Pain). A clever character might be able to pick his or her moment and render a street impassible for long enough to escape, or cause sufficient chaos to get lost in the crowd.

[Shadow]

With that said, it's a shame that chases didn't get a proper subsystem. It's the one big action scene that isn't combat, and really deserves more attention than it gets in basically any game.

According to the leaked info it'll be in the DMG.

edit:
Link (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=30264)

[MadGrady]

Need a new scenario!

Situation: Player 1 is climbing up a tree after being thrown onto tree by BBEG. BBEG is on another tree. Explosion destroy's BBEG's tree, and it begins to topple towards Player 1's tree. Player 1 wishes to launch himself into the air and attach BBEG as he is falling towards him.

[Sartharina]

Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity(Acrobatics) check to get across (I let players play to their strengths in situations of overlap like this) as part of movement, and an athletics check to grab on.

[Knaight]

Attack or attach? If it's the first, attack as normal, with advantage. Otherwise, it depends on what exactly is being attached to.