A question about D&D rules.

[Professor Tanhauser]

Ok, people are swearing that V is a 13 level wizard, and we can assume durkon is roughly equal, so I'm curious about something and, as usual, lack the D&D knowledge to satisfy my curiousity, so I turn to you dungeon crawlers for knowledge. Xykon is obvioulsy more powerful that V OR Durkon, I think that's obvious. Buuuuuut...... is old boney more powerful than V AND Durkon? I know zip about magic, D&D or otherwise, only game I ever played that had magic was Call of Cthulhu. (Did I just hear someone scream?) So magic users with levels are pretty foreign to me. Thus, I wonder if V and Durkon could combine their power to fight that cut rate skeletor clone or not? I mean, Xykon may be a battleship, and V and Durkon may just be heavy cruisers. Normally a battle ship has little troulbe with a heavy cruiser, but two heavy crusiers can give a battleship loads of grief because two working together are more than twice as powerul as one alone. So, if V and durkon worked together, say one hits x with a spell, forcing him to resist it then the other blasts him forcing him to resist, then the other restarts the cycle they could, I guess, keep hitting him and forcing him on the defensive until he ran out of power. I 'm thinking the V vs. Zzz'drit, where V would fire a spell and Z would counter, then V ran outta pixie dust or whatever powers magiv in D&D. So, V and Durkon just alternate firing on smiley, forcing into a constant expenditure of energy to defend himself, not allowing him to go offensive until his batteries are drained, then he either retreats or gets turned into bonemeal. Now X could drop defenses and fire on one, but then the other has a clear shot to zap him, and x has no one to cast healing on him or anything, while the one who was hit has a chance his pal will be able to do something after frying x. I was just wondering if two medium wizards could take on a top level one this way. Would D&D's magic rules allow anything like this?

[Innis Cabal]

no, only if Xykon was not buffed up....which is unlikely

[Professor Tanhauser]

no, only if Xykon was not buffed up....which is unlikely

What if V and durkon are both "buffed up"? BTW, would V's "Cone of Cold" do more damage to xykon since he's a bunch of bones that could freeze and shatter easily? Might be nice to see him use that on someone beside elan.

[NovaSeaker]

You could have either V or Durkon counterspelling any of Xykon's attempts at casting a spell, however, he is high enough level that he can simply resist most of what either of them throw at him, including the counterspell attempts.
With the right two or three buffing spells, Xykon wouldn't need to actively counter any of V or Durkon's spells, he could just weather them with minimum difficulty. So while one of them keeps trying to blast him and the other tries to counterspell, most of his attack spells are still going through and the two lower level casters will run out of spells before he will.

[Professor Tanhauser]

You could have either V or Durkon counterspelling any of Xykon's attempts at casting a spell, however, he is high enough level that he can simply resist most of what either of them throw at him, including the counterspell attempts.
With the right two or three buffing spells, Xykon wouldn't need to actively counter any of V or Durkon's spells, he could just weather them with minimum difficulty. So while one of them keeps trying to blast him and the other tries to counterspell, most of his attack spells are still going through and the two lower level casters will run out of spells before he will.

Ok, with two guys casting a x won;t they have a twice as good chance of rolling a 20 on the cast, like V did with the black dragon and suggest? I really know little about D&D, but it seems unbalanced that one wizard could just automatically steamroller two fairly powerful ones with a chance for them to win...

[Jade_Tarem]

A curious question.

The answer is, if we're just going by rules, maybe.

It depends on several things.

1. How powerful Xykon really is. (V and Durkon ARE 13, by the way, and chances are that so is the rest of the OOTS - but the highest level spell that Xykon has cast so far is Xykon's moderately escapeable forcecage, which would be spell level 7 or 8). If he can cast 9th level spells, he wins, hands down. Level 7 spells are pretty spiffy until you put them up against gate and time stop.

2. What buff spells Xykon has running already.

3. What spell he used to animate the dragon.

4. The die rolls. Xykon *can* likely be destroyed in one shot, but he would have to roll a natural 1 on the save in many cases. Also, Xykon is undead. This gives him an enormous list of immunities. He's immune to negative energy, mind affecting spells (V's power word blind? Won't work), and he's strong enough that he can't be turned by Durkon.

In reality, a sorcerer that strong can probably avoid the cleric and disable the weaker wizard quickly enough to win.

Also, Xykon is protected by the power of plot. In other words, V isn't going to get lucky and blow his head of with a well-placed disintegrate even if there is a small but real chance of that happening.

Also, Xykon can't be turned by Durkon. He has at least as many HD (possibly more) and turn resistance +4 for being a lich, that's just too high for our clerical protagonist to take him down the easy way.

Edit: Cone of cold is fairly short range, and pretty weak for a level 5 spell. It does only a little more damage than the level 3 spell fireball and is much harder to use.


Ok, with two guys casting a x won;t they have a twice as good chance of rolling a 20 on the cast, like V did with the black dragon and suggest? I really know little about D&D, but it seems unbalanced that one wizard could just automatically steamroller two fairly powerful ones with a chance for them to win...

Welcome to DnD. Arcane casters are all about unbalanced.

[Innis Cabal]

Xykon is immune to cold for starters. Second even if V counterspelled Xykon unless he has given up alot of feats to make it worthwhile. Not only that but a single Dysjunction from Xykon and all their buffs go down. Not even that but a single touch from Xykon and they are done for.

[Professor Tanhauser]

Well, I don't see what's curious about the question itself. I like OotS but am not into D&D, so I don't know if two medium level anythings, working together, can or cannot defeat, or at least have a decent chance to defeat, a high lever same thing.

In a lot of games, game balance would denote that the two medium levels would at least have a decent chance if they worked together because two, working in complimentary fashion, SHOULD be more than simply twice as powerful as one.

Now, D&D being a 'classic" game may not have the same amount of game balance as later games, so maybe it doesn't work that way in D&D. I don't know.

[Innis Cabal]

it does not. If Xykon is CR 18, that means he is a challange for a group of 4 18th level PC's. So two 13th level people wont stand much of a chance unless they get lucky and get the power of plot

[shadowkire]

Well, I don't see what's curious about the question itself. I like OotS but am not into D&D, so I don't know if two medium level anythings, working together, can or cannot defeat, or at least have a decent chance to defeat, a high lever same thing.

In a lot of games, game balance would denote that the two medium levels would at least have a decent chance if they worked together because two, working in complimentary fashion, SHOULD be more than simply twice as powerful as one.

Now, D&D being a 'classic" game may not have the same amount of game balance as later games, so maybe it doesn't work that way in D&D. I don't know.

it really depends on the situation, using the naval anology you were refering to earlier two heavy cruisers could beat a battleship or whatever, but the analogy doesn't fit quite right with V + Durkon vs Xykon, because Xykon is undead and not flesh and blood. This makes him a bit harder to beat than just an ordinary high level wizard or whatever.
If it came out to a stand-off between the three I think Xykon would win. In a real-time battle system the dwarf and the elf would have better odds because, like you said, they could keep Xykon on the ropes until they can go for the knockout. But the problem is that the story largely adheres to the rules of DnD, and the combat system is turn-based, allowing all three particapents a chance to attack. This is bad for the heroic duo because V, as a wizard and an elf, has very few HP and as such would bite the dust after a good shot to the jaw.

[Innis Cabal]

its not even plausible when not in turn based. A quickened finger of death for V, whos low save is fort, and Dominate on Durkon and the battle is over

[shadowkire]

its not even plausible when not in turn based. A quickened finger of death for V, whos low save is fort, and Dominate on Durkon and the battle is over

If Xykon could throw around quicked finger of death or dominate then this comic would be over a few hundred strips ago when the OotS first confronted Xykon.

[Innis Cabal]

he can cast 9th level spells from what i have heard. Heck, even a quickened desintagrate on V would end him. Then it would be a cleric who cant turn at all against an undead...no more Durkon. If the whole order took him on, easy fight but two casters, heck throw in Haley for fun, the three of them would be gone

[Kreistor]

Okay, if you go and check the class and level geekery thread, you can find that Xykon is probably 18th level. (He has to be at least 17th level to control that Ancient Silver Dragon undead.) To measure a monster's difficulty, DnD introduced the concept of Challenge Rating (CR). As a character with 18 PC levels (Sorcerer), Xykon begins as a CR18 creature. The Lich template adds +2CR, so Xykon is a CR20 creature.

A party is measured using Encounter Level, which is the average of all party members. I the party is average level 13, then its EL is 13. An average encounter for a party is with a monster with CR=EL. So, for L13, the party would be looking at CR13 creatures. These are what you fill the dungeon with.

But, obviously, we want the Boss to be stronger than the average monster, and they are ultimately the point. A good benchmark for a boss fight is never let the CR be EL+5, once the party is EL4 or higher. So, for the EL13 party, Xykon's CR20 is too high for even the roughest of Boss fights.

Now, this normally assumes the party has four PC's. The OotS has six. So, how does that change the EL? It doesn't. Some people make the mistake of thinking more PC's means a higher EL, but experience demonstrates that is a mistaken assumption. I won't get into it here, but if you do it, you wind up with high character turnover.

So, no, even with all six party members (much less only two), Xykon is still too tough a fight for them to expect to beat him in a stand up fight.

[Innis Cabal]

lich is +4 btw
And when there are more people its easier to take down higher CR monsters. A single enemy will always fall to a large group. a party of mine with 7 level 6's took down a CR 15 giant...in three turns. Two of us died...but thats a net gain for everyone else.

[Professor Tanhauser]

I noticve in the latest strip that durkon was able to defeat xykon's "greater invisibility" pretty easily, and he was casting spells on roy that he thought might help him vs. xykon.

Again, knowing nothing about d7d's magic system it looked to me that durkon could cancel out one of xykon's spells and cast spells he thought would help roy, so that's one reason i was thinking a could magic users dorkon's level could give xykon trouble.

I could see Dur using thor's might to give xykon a whack he'd never forget...

[factotum]

Durkon used Greater Dispel Magic, and he's level 13. That means he gets +13 on the check to see if the spell works. The original spell was cast by Xykon, who is guessed to be level 18, so the difficulty of dispelling it is 29--in other words, he succeeds on a die roll of 16 or better on a d20. Therefore he actually only had a 25% chance to dispel the Greater Invisibility--he just got lucky!

In any sort of battle he would have pretty similar chances of dispelling anything Xykon cast, so it should be pretty obvious things aren't going to be pretty when 3 out of every 4 of Xykon's spells don't get dispelled--and that's ignoring the fact you can't dispel instantaneous spells like Fireball.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Vaarsuvius and Durkon alone? Not likely. As effective as both of their offensive spells are, they don't beat the magical defenses of a much higher-level and probably better-equipped spellcaster.

The Order of the Stick as a whole? Maybe possible, if they got very lucky and worked together as a team. Neither of which is going to happen any time soon. It's possible that Roy, with his sword uniquely suited to taking down the undead and his "so crazy it just might work" leaping charge, will deal enough damage to his nemesis to convince him to retreat, which he can do easily with a Teleport or any number of other spells (after a hop, skip, and a 30 foot plummet to get out of Roy's reach.)

Finally, note that Roy only beat Xykon in the Dungeon of Dorukan by doing things you can't really do under D&D rules. Mostly the skull detachment part. I guess picking him up and throwing him was okay. Anyway, it's possible that he'll beat down Xykon "cinematically" again in a similar manner.

I just noticed the original possibility posed of V and Durkon wearing down Xykon's number of castable spells and winning by virtue of having more ammo. This is a possible plan. However, Xykon likely has spells that could kill Vaarsuvius or Durkon in a single round: Disintegrate or Delayed Blast Fireball through pure damage, or instant-death spells like Finger of Death and Wail of the Banshee. If V and Durkon spent the resources protecting themselves from these spells, they might still be able to fight Xykon to a standstill. Even then, though, it's rather easy for a smart spellcaster like Xykon to escape.

[dragon95046]

and that's ignoring the fact you can't dispel instantaneous spells like Fireball.

You can use dispel against instantaneous spells, you just need to have a readied action and attempt to counterspell. But yea, the odds are aganst that working well. Even if Durkon's caster level were the same as Xycon's, you are still only looking at a 50/50 chance of being successful.

Could V and Durkon take on Xycon and win? They may well stand a fighting chance, depending on their spell selections. Clerics in particular get an array of spells that are especially effective vs undead. Death Ward would stave off the effects of a Finger of Death and spells like Searing Light don't allow saving throws (though it does require a touch attack but that is usually pretty easy to make). If Xycon stayed close, the Mass Cure spells could both heal the two if them while hurting Xycon. And I haven't even looked at what V may be able to pull out, maybe some resist energies. V could even be ready to counter a Dispel Magic from Xycon with a Dispel Magic of V's own (same spell is automatic success).

However, this is assuming they were prepped to hunt undead and not, say, an army of flesh-and-blood breathers. Spells like, Bless, Prayer, Cone of Cold, Fireball and Flame Strike work wonders on masses of low-level allies and opponents, but aren't as effective against a single high-level opponent.

The main problem here, though, is even if they were to defeat Xycon, he would regenerate again unless they somehow found and destroyed his phylactery.

[Estelindis]

Okay, if you go and check the class and level geekery thread, you can find that Xykon is probably 18th level. (He has to be at least 17th level to control that Ancient Silver Dragon undead.) To measure a monster's difficulty, DnD introduced the concept of Challenge Rating (CR). As a character with 18 PC levels (Sorcerer), Xykon begins as a CR18 creature. The Lich template adds +2CR, so Xykon is a CR20 creature.

A party is measured using Encounter Level, which is the average of all party members. I the party is average level 13, then its EL is 13. An average encounter for a party is with a monster with CR=EL. So, for L13, the party would be looking at CR13 creatures. These are what you fill the dungeon with.

But, obviously, we want the Boss to be stronger than the average monster, and they are ultimately the point. A good benchmark for a boss fight is never let the CR be EL+5, once the party is EL4 or higher. So, for the EL13 party, Xykon's CR20 is too high for even the roughest of Boss fights.

Now, this normally assumes the party has four PC's. The OotS has six. So, how does that change the EL? It doesn't. Some people make the mistake of thinking more PC's means a higher EL, but experience demonstrates that is a mistaken assumption. I won't get into it here, but if you do it, you wind up with high character turnover.

So, no, even with all six party members (much less only two), Xykon is still too tough a fight for them to expect to beat him in a stand up fight.
Actually, I've found that my party can regularly take on bosses with more than five levels advantage over them. Now, they're six characters rather than four, and I gave them a ridiculous 40 point buy (everyone likes to have decent stats), but to make up for this I expect them to be able to face some seriously troublesome foes. They don't disappoint me - because it's not just a question of numbers, but of creative use of abilities, and general thinking outside the box. For instance, I sent them up against a Great Green Wyrm (CR 24) when they were 13th level (I think), and against an Atropal (CR 30) along with an *army* of undead demons when they were 21st level. They dealt with both challanges not only competently, but with great flair and style. (They did have to run away from the latter at first, but when they returned they kicked its sorry undead godling posterior right back into nonexistence.) Now, the OotS strikes me as the same kind of party as my group. They're capable of thinking of clever ways to work around the dilemma they encounter, but they're not afraid to fight toe to toe when the going gets tough.

That said, I think Durkon was *very* lucky to dispel Xykon's Greater Invisibility.

[Snake-Aes]

Roughly, you can assume that for each couple levels your power doubles, the mechanics of the game say that Xykon(estimated CR of 22) is just too much for the OOTS(As said on the CR compared to Encounter Level concept)

[SPoD]

In a lot of games, game balance would denote that the two medium levels would at least have a decent chance if they worked together because two, working in complimentary fashion, SHOULD be more than simply twice as powerful as one.

Now, D&D being a 'classic" game may not have the same amount of game balance as later games, so maybe it doesn't work that way in D&D. I don't know.

This isn't an issue of game balance, really. The thing is, Xykon isn't a balanced opponent for the OOTS. In a real D&D game, a DM wouldn't put Xykon as the villain unless he was trying to kill the players. To use a CoC example, it would be like the investigators having to defeat Cthulhu himself--the fact that it just ain't happening doesn't reflect on the balance of the game. Xykon's objectively way too powerful for the entire team to fight, much less just the two spellcasters. But in OOTS, the plot dictates what it dictates.

In D&D, the power scale doubles every two levels of advancement, so that a foe that is CR 20 (minimum CR for a lich who can cast 9th level spells as a sorcerer) is considered to be about 9 times as powerful as an entire 4-man party of 13th level characters (and about 11 times more powerful than just V and Durkon alone). So, that means that you would need 11 pairs of V and Durkon to beat Xykon easily, and probably at least 8-9 pairs to have a 50-50 chance.

The reason is that Xykon's spells are going to work almost 75% of the time against them, but their spells are only going to work maybe 25% of the time against him. And most of Xykon's spells will be instant death for the good guys, while none of their spells would be capable of beating him instantly. This is because Xykon's 9th-level spells are exponentially more powerful than 7th-level spells (the best V can cast). So the V-and-Durkon pairings would need to be firing off spell after spell, hoping to wear him down, while Xykon would be killing one or more caster per round. Further, a sorcerer gets more spells per day than any other caster, so Xykon wouldn't run out particularly soon.

[Professor Tanhauser]

Wow, people say that the order can't take xykon, but I seem to recall something about roy just grabbing him by his boney ass and neck and tossing him into a gate, followed by a loud "BOOM!".......

[Nerd-o-rama]

Xykon wasn't really trying at that point. He wanted them alive to do his reverse-psychology'd bidding at that point. Even after he realized that they weren't going to open the gate for him, he decided to do the Evil Overlord thing and delay them while he went into a monologue and brought out his secret weapon. He wasn't expecting Roy to interrupt him. Or knock his head off, which you can't do in D&D rules. Or throw him into the Gate, which there are no specific rules for in D&D, but it's at least feasible.

In short, if Xykon had wanted to wipe them out in the most efficient way possible, he easily could have. He didn't, though, and the Order won. That round.

[TETanglebrooke]

that was not because of their skills that was because he threw him into an artifact power item that instantly anihilates anything to touch it. if roy had beaten him fair and square the gate would never have come into play.

[Innis Cabal]

also the power of plot works well in this comic

[Kreistor]

Now, they're six characters rather than four, and I gave them a ridiculous 40 point buy (everyone likes to have decent stats), but to make up for this I expect them to be able to face some seriously troublesome foes.

40 point buy will do that. I think it's clear from the Class and Level Geekery thread that the OotS is barely up to normal stats, much less overbuilt.

Innis Cabal, a Lich's Level Adjust is +4, but his CR is +2. You use LA for cohorts and PC's (if one allows a PC to become a Lich). You use the CR rating for NPC's.

[Kreistor]

Oh, and another thing about Xykon being too high level... in this case, Xykon has more to deal with than just the OotS. he can't afford to go full bore at the OotS, or he will wind up with insufficient resources to deal with the other problems, like the Sappohire Guard.

The first time around, he had a similar distraction. He needed someone good to touch the Gate and open it for him.

Environment and story effects can reduce and raise the EL of an encounter. In both of these cases, Xykon is hindered from going all out against the OotS, so the actual EL is lowered. The encounter is reduced such that the OotS can win, but that is a plot element. The Giant knows the OotS should probably die if they tried to go head to head with Xykon right now, so he won't put them in that situation yet. They need to keep levelling, so Xykon will keep escaping or regenerating.

[Midnight Lurker]

As a sorcerer, Xykon CANNOT QUICKEN SPELLS. Or at least not without some really esoteric and limited-use feats or magic items.

Just something for folks to keep in mind.

[Kreistor]

Actually, the Player Handbook 2 has become very popular, and one variant for the Sorcerer there removes the Familiar and the allows Sorcerers to apply metamagic feats without changing casting time.

Arguably, there is another method. I have never seen anything that specifically disallows this next one, anyway, but some people will claim it can't be done because nothing specifically says you're allowed, either...

Apply the Metamagic Feat when you gain the Spell Known, instead of at casting time. So, at L10, when a Sorcerer with Quicken Spell gains his first 5th level spells, he gains "Quickened Magic Missile) into one of his 5th level slots. Since the feat is not being applied at casting time, the casting time doesn't change. He isn't technically "applying the metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell", he's "spontaneously casting a spell with the Metamagic feat applied", which by the wording of the rules really is different.

Like I said, this is a controversial suggestion and I realize other peopel may have a problem with it. If anyone can find a specific quote that prevents a Sorcerer from learning a spell with metamagic feats pre-applied, please, point me to it. I've just never found it.

[SPoD]

Wow, people say that the order can't take xykon, but I seem to recall something about roy just grabbing him by his boney ass and neck and tossing him into a gate, followed by a loud "BOOM!".......

You asked about the D&D rules, so you got answers about the D&D rules. What Roy did to defeat Xykon is not in the D&D rules AT ALL, it was a pure "speed of plot" situation. You can't knock the head off of a lich in the D&D rules (much less with your bare hands), there's no such gate with those magical properties that we know of, heck, there aren't even rules for throwing somebody unless you have a special feat or class ability that enables you to do so.

By the written D&D rules, V and Durkon have very, very little chance to defeat Xykon on their own. If you want to talk about the possibility that Rich might bend the rules to allow V and Durkon to beat Xykon by themselves, fine, but you probably shouldn't title your thread, "A question about D&D rules" in that case.

The clear-cut, essentially unanimous answers to your initial post are:


Buuuuuut...... is old boney more powerful than V AND Durkon?

By the strict D&D rules, yes, he is much, MUCH more powerful.


I was just wondering if two medium wizards could take on a top level one this way. Would D&D's magic rules allow anything like this?

By the strict D&D rules, no, they'd get their clocks cleaned.

[Morrsleib]

Actually, I've found that my party can regularly take on bosses with more than five levels advantage over them. Now, they're six characters rather than four, and I gave them a ridiculous 40 point buy (everyone likes to have decent stats), but to make up for this I expect them to be able to face some seriously troublesome foes. They don't disappoint me - because it's not just a question of numbers, but of creative use of abilities, and general thinking outside the box. For instance, I sent them up against a Great Green Wyrm (CR 24) when they were 13th level (I think), and against an Atropal (CR 30) along with an *army* of undead demons when they were 21st level. They dealt with both challanges not only competently, but with great flair and style. (They did have to run away from the latter at first, but when they returned they kicked its sorry undead godling posterior right back into nonexistence.) Now, the OotS strikes me as the same kind of party as my group. They're capable of thinking of clever ways to work around the dilemma they encounter, but they're not afraid to fight toe to toe when the going gets tough.



Then you don't play the monster correctly or your players play really powerfull build. a party of level 13 stand no chance att all to defeat a great wurm green dragon, if they're not some of the uberpowerfull builds from CoB. the only one to hurt it would die in first round from the breath weapon.

[lord_khaine]

well i actualy think durkon and V does stand a chance, if they won initaive, if not they would be gone in the first meteror shower.

but the trick against highlv spellcasters is to ready an action to interupt him, so that the first time he tries to cast a spell he gets blasted by V so his spells fizzles, and Durkon can get close enough to give old bony a Heal or 2.

[Dratsabre Tsabala]

Then you don't play the monster correctly or your players play really powerfull build. a party of level 13 stand no chance att all to defeat a great wurm green dragon, if they're not some of the uberpowerfull builds from CoB. the only one to hurt it would die in first round from the breath weapon.

Now, now-- this is Dungeons and Dragons we're talking about here. At any gaming table where the DM isn't a railroading prick, ingenuity and elbow grease can go a very long way. Creative use of summon and hireling abilities, well-concieved illusions, bargaining, (RP-based) diplomacy, improvised uses for mundane adventuring gear, playing your enemy's fears or rivalries against it, or even just having the gumption to dig a really big hole and find a way to fill it with water are all tactics that even a level 1 commoner can use to turn the tide of a campaign. (Well, assuming they traded the local hedge wizard a prized pig or a steak-and-kidney pie for the "well-concieved illusions" bit.) I once adventured with a man who-- to the horror of DM's in several different campaigns-- had improvised a perfectly RAW-appropriate (and worse, in-game-logically cohesive) method for killing the Tarrasque using nothing but hundreds of Animated napkins.

I don't know about how you play, but to me and mine, most of the encounters worth remembering wouldn't exactly be getting even odds in Vegas, and almost none of them would be the kind of simple, straightforward slugfest you seem to be laying out in your post. Half the fun of D&D is that you can beat almost any enemy as long as you can get it fighting on your terms.

[1337_master]

I'm sorry, and I know that this is because you didn't know the rules, but I must say this-you did NOT just say pixie dust.

[Kreistor]

but the trick against highlv spellcasters is to ready an action to interupt him, so that the first time he tries to cast a spell he gets blasted by V so his spells fizzles, and Durkon can get close enough to give old bony a Heal or 2.

unfortunately, that dragon gives Xykon mobility. He can move 300' per round, which can put him out of sight between castings, so that he can not only just skirt by them, but run away, put up some defences, and then come back immune to anything V and D could throw at him, if he hasn't put those defences up already. All he needs is Spell Resistance and then V and D's readied actions can fizzle causing no damage, but Xykon's go off and V or D dies. X dishes out a lot more damage than they do. And at 18D12 (ave 117) hit points, he can take a lot of beating down. His Concentration is also going to be +21 if he doesn't have Combat Casting, so on average, he'd pass a check against 21 damage and get off his spell anyway.

It is conceivable that V and D could win, but they'd have to get extremely lucky on the dice rolling. On average, they would go squish.

[Saithis Bladewing]

The answer to this question lies in what kind of spells Xykon has chosen as a sorceror. If he's lacking anti-spellcasting abilities, the more flexible Durkon and V could overpower him without much trouble. If he has lots of anti-spellcasting abilities, it gets a bit tougher.

[Innis Cabal]

not to mention that Xykon has SR no doubt, and finger of death....which if im guessing right...and i am, V can't make the save...becuase fort is his low save...so one turn and he is gone...Leaving Durkon to deal with a lich and his dragon...

[Pokemaster]

Heh, it depends.

It's entirely possible that Xykon rolled a 1 on all his HD rolls, giving him 31 HP. Likewise, it's entirely possible that V could roll all 6s on his fireball damage and that Xykon would roll a 1 on his save, therefore dying instantly.

However, the more likely scenario is that Xykon would crush both of them in a few rounds. He hasn't done a whole lot against the Order of the Stick, but he has killed a lot of high-level spellcasters in the past, so not only is he probably a lot tougher than he looks, he probably knows what strategies to use in spell battles. Plus, he looks like he became a Lich fairly late in life, so it's possible that his Charisma is somewhere in the 28-31 range, without any magical items boosting it, so his spells would have a high Save DC and he would have a lot of bonus spells per day.

Also, Disintegrate and Finger of Death can't be quickened at all without using the Epic-level rules, because they would require level 10 and 11 spell slots.

[Threeshades]

I have a question too. I earned its always better to post in an existing thread rather than starting a new thread. i have been wondering about strip #18 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0018.html).

Haley sneak attacks the Chimera in the middle of talking. I guess that works even if the chimera is aware of her, it still is not prepared for a sudden attack.
But the second sneak attack. Is that actually possible to double sneak attack an enemy if you win initiative? And if so I would like to have it explained closer, because if its possible it would come in quite handy to me.
Or is it just for the joke?

[Thexare Blademoon]

As has been stated, there's no way in (insert unpleasant netherworld here) that Xykon would lose short of laughable dice rolls, artifact intervention, or plot, at this point.


I once adventured with a man who-- to the horror of DM's in several different campaigns-- had improvised a perfectly RAW-appropriate (and worse, in-game-logically cohesive) method for killing the Tarrasque using nothing but hundreds of Animated napkins.

Ok, bit off-topic I know, but this I gotta hear. If you'd rather not risk derailing the topic, PM me.


The answer to this question lies in what kind of spells Xykon has chosen as a sorceror. If he's lacking anti-spellcasting abilities, the more flexible Durkon and V could overpower him without much trouble. If he has lots of anti-spellcasting abilities, it gets a bit tougher.

Xykon's killed a lot of other spellcasters. Chances are, he chose quite a few anti-spellcasting abilities.

[Saithis Bladewing]

I have a question too. I earned its always better to post in an existing thread rather than starting a new thread. i have been wondering about strip #18 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0018.html).

Haley sneak attacks the Chimera in the middle of talking. I guess that works even if the chimera is aware of her, it still is not prepared for a sudden attack.
But the second sneak attack. Is that actually possible to double sneak attack an enemy if you win initiative? And if so I would like to have it explained closer, because if its possible it would come in quite handy to me.
Or is it just for the joke?

A foe is considered flat footed until they take their first action (unless they have Uncanny Dodge or similar abilities, which a Chimera does not).

Therefore Haley won the surprise round, then she won initiative and went before the Chimera, so it was flat-footed for both rounds and therefore vulnerable to both sneak attacks.


Xykon's killed a lot of other spellcasters. Chances are, he chose quite a few anti-spellcasting abilities.

True, but you never know with this sort of thing. Also, you have to wonder, how many of those spellcasters were prepared to fight him? There are always questions where these sort of blanks exist in a character's abilities.

[Dazdya]

I know that this discussion is about D&D rules, but I would like to add something. Xykon does not strike me as a brilliant genius spellcaster evil warlord, but more like a guy who is too lazy to die and thus became undead. Without Redcloak, will he be able to use any strategy at all?

[Threeshades]

A foe is considered flat footed until they take their first action (unless they have Uncanny Dodge or similar abilities, which a Chimera does not).

Therefore Haley won the surprise round, then she won initiative and went before the Chimera, so it was flat-footed for both rounds and therefore vulnerable to both sneak attacks.
Ah, that makes sense, thanks.

[nocker]

I know that this discussion is about D&D rules, but I would like to add something. Xykon does not strike me as a brilliant genius spellcaster evil warlord, but more like a guy who is too lazy to die and thus became undead. Without Redcloak, will he be able to use any strategy at all?

I want to add something over your something. Xykon killed Dorukan, which was a very high level wizard, in a spellcasting battle. He also killed the mentor of Roy's father, which should be reasonably competent, if not on the same league as Dorukan (but then again, Xykon was still alive by then).

Lazy or not, Xykon is a spellcaster killer.

[Zherog]

His Concentration is also going to be +21 if he doesn't have Combat Casting, so on average, he'd pass a check against 21 damage and get off his spell anyway.

Combat Casting only applies to casting defensively; it does not provide any bonus to Concentration checks made for things such as taking damage while casting a spell.


I have a question too. I earned its always better to post in an existing thread rather than starting a new thread. i have been wondering about strip #18 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0018.html).

Haley sneak attacks the Chimera in the middle of talking. I guess that works even if the chimera is aware of her, it still is not prepared for a sudden attack.
But the second sneak attack. Is that actually possible to double sneak attack an enemy if you win initiative? And if so I would like to have it explained closer, because if its possible it would come in quite handy to me.
Or is it just for the joke?

In addition to what Saithis said (which was completely correct), I'll add one addendum.

If, for whatever reason, you get 5 attacks in a round, and your foe is denied his Dex bonus against all 5 attacks, then each one gets your full sneak attack. That's why Two-Weapon Fighting is highly effective for rogues.

[BobTheDog]

If, for whatever reason, you get 5 attacks in a round, and your foe is denied his Dex bonus against all 5 attacks, then each one gets your full sneak attack. That's why Two-Weapon Fighting is highly effective for rogues.

Also known as "The Meat-Grinder Rogue". :smallwink: (Which, by the way, is a VERY nice option for an Arcane Trickster... Greater Invisibility and all that.)

[Tokiko Mima]

Ok, people are swearing that V is a 13 level wizard, and we can assume durkon is roughly equal, so I'm curious about something and, as usual, lack the D&D knowledge to satisfy my curiousity, so I turn to you dungeon crawlers for knowledge. Xykon is obvioulsy more powerful that V OR Durkon, I think that's obvious. Buuuuuut...... is old boney more powerful than V AND Durkon? I know zip about magic, D&D or otherwise, only game I ever played that had magic was Call of Cthulhu. (Did I just hear someone scream?) So magic users with levels are pretty foreign to me. Thus, I wonder if V and Durkon could combine their power to fight that cut rate skeletor clone or not? I mean, Xykon may be a battleship, and V and Durkon may just be heavy cruisers. Normally a battle ship has little troulbe with a heavy cruiser, but two heavy crusiers can give a battleship loads of grief because two working together are more than twice as powerul as one alone. So, if V and durkon worked together, say one hits x with a spell, forcing him to resist it then the other blasts him forcing him to resist, then the other restarts the cycle they could, I guess, keep hitting him and forcing him on the defensive until he ran out of power. I 'm thinking the V vs. Zzz'drit, where V would fire a spell and Z would counter, then V ran outta pixie dust or whatever powers magiv in D&D. So, V and Durkon just alternate firing on smiley, forcing into a constant expenditure of energy to defend himself, not allowing him to go offensive until his batteries are drained, then he either retreats or gets turned into bonemeal. Now X could drop defenses and fire on one, but then the other has a clear shot to zap him, and x has no one to cast healing on him or anything, while the one who was hit has a chance his pal will be able to do something after frying x. I was just wondering if two medium wizards could take on a top level one this way. Would D&D's magic rules allow anything like this?

The interesting thing about D&D power progression is that it's exponential, within constraints. For example, everytime a Fighter gains a levels, they are 5% more likely to hit. Sounds linear, right?

However, the way it works produces a system where at level 5, you might have only a 10% chance to hit a given level 10 enemy. That same enemy will have a 60% chance to hit you. That's a practically unwinning percentage, if you're in combat and not doing a great deal of damage to compensate.

5 levels later, you'll have a 35%+ chance to hit the same enemy, and it's now an even fight.

5 levels after that, you're now horrifically overpowered attacking that same foe, with a 60% chance to hit something that can barely touch you.

So the scale is quite dramatic, and the more the CR is above/below you, the greater the difference.

[Innis Cabal]

wow...some one hit this right on the nose....grats and tacos to you

[Kreistor]

The interesting thing about D&D power progression is that it's exponential, within constraints. For example, everytime a Fighter gains a levels, they are 5% more likely to hit. Sounds linear, right?

However, the way it works produces a system where at level 5, you might have only a 10% chance to hit a given level 10 enemy. That same enemy will have a 60% chance to hit you. That's a practically unwinning percentage, if you're in combat and not doing a great deal of damage to compensate.

5 levels later, you'll have a 35%+ chance to hit the same enemy, and it's now an even fight.

5 levels after that, you're now horrifically overpowered attacking that same foe, with a 60% chance to hit something that can barely touch you.

So the scale is quite dramatic, and the more the CR is above/below you, the greater the difference.

That looks really good, except that it's wrong.

Let's say you're hitting something on a 17 (so a 20% chance to hit). You gain a +1 to hit, increasing your chance to 25%. You're doing 5% more damage, right?

Wrong.

Your damage per round = (chance to hit) x (average damage)

The formula for increase in damage is...

increase = ((new damage) - (old damage))/(old damage)
=((new chance to hit)x(ave dam) - (old chance to hit)x(ave dam))/(old chance to hit)x(ave dam)
=(new chance - old chance)/old chance
=(0.25-0.20)/(0.20)
=.05/.20=5/20 = 0.25 = 25%

That +1 to hit increased average damage per round by 25%. What if your old chance to hit was 40%? That +1 increases average damage per round by less, only 12.5%. There is a Law of Diminishing Returns.

That's not an exponential in any way. You do better, but not exponentially better, against the old opponents.

The appearance of an exponential system comes from the fact your AC rises vs. that same opponent. You don't do that much extra damage, but you take less, so you last longer, and therefore can kill more than a linear progression might superficially indicate. But, it is still a linear progression. AC increases survivability linearly. It's when you combine survivability and lethality together that it appears exponential.

A true exponential system is Champions. Champions uses a system heavily reliant on the equivalent of DR. Even meleers deal massive D6 in damage, but everyone has high DR.

Le'ts pick a DR of 20. If I don't deal 21 points of damage, then I do 0. At 21, I do 1.

Now, graph that: damage dealt vs. damage taken. It looks like a straight line at 0 out to 20, then it's a line with slope 1.

Okay, math geeks: what is a close approximation to an exponential curve? Anyone? That's right, two straight lines. That curve I just described is a very close approximation of an exponential.

DnD does include DR, but it's easily overcome and not a part of every combat, so it can include the exponential element, but it's not an integral part of the system, just a tack on to provide an interesting effect that needs to be overcome once in a while.

Because of that lack of an offset on the X axis when you map damage dealt vs. damage taken under DnD, extra damage appears on the slope = 1 line with offset = 0. That's a line, making DnD a linear system.

The appearance of exponentiality in the DnD system is most apparent at low level. Consider a character's HP as it increases from L1 to L2. HP at L1 for a fighter are going to be 10+Con. At level 2, HP increase by 1D10+Con, which will increase HP by more than 55% on average. But what about a L10 fighter gaining L11? Instead of the increase being (1D10+Con)/(10+Con) it is now (1D10+Con)/(10+9D10+10xCon). That is a much lower percentage. If I create an enemy that has 2HD instead of 1HD for a level 1 party, they're going to have 2x as many HP to deal with. If I create an enemy with 11HD instead of 10HD for a L10 party, then they're only dealing with 10% more HP... that's a much smaller problem.

The EL=CR system for DnD has problems at low levels. Once you get past Level 7, you hit the true linearity of the system. An EL 1 party has a problem with a CR 4, but an EL 10 party does not have a problem with a CR 13 enemy. As level increases, the party can deal with ever higher (CR-EL) differences. That is a strong indicator of a linear system. A true exponential would maintain a constant (CR-EL) difficulty.