Weapons , monsters and pc

[Smorgonoffz]

I noticed that some monsters have really nice and cool weapons( ice devil's spear, kuo toa archpriest mace etc ), the problem is that these weapons are also pretty powerful.
Would you as a dm let a pc have one of them?

[Shadow]

No.
There is no such thing as an Ice Devil Spear. That isn't a specific weapon, it's a variant monster with different attack choices. The ice devil uses a spear, but all the cool effects of the attack aren't from some amazing spear that they wield. And even if the weapons being used by the monsters were the important part (which again, they aren't) those weapons were never intended for PC use.
There is also no such thing as a bone devil polearem, before anyone asks.
You'll notice that the Eriynes variant entry specifically states that it uses a specific item with specific properties, and it tells you where to find the details for those properties. No such information usually exists in the variant weapon cases. It details that they have different attack choices and it details what those choices are, but it doesn't tell you the actual stats of the weapon because the weapon isn't the important part.

The weapons that are intended for PC use are listed in the PHB (and soon enough the magic weapons in the DMG).
None of the variant monster weapons listed in the MM were intended for PC use (because they aren't weapons, they're vairiant monsters), and even if you talk your DM into it, you still have the issue of them being weapons for large creatures when the PCs are medium at most, so you can't use them effectively anyway.

[Greylind]

I noticed that some monsters have really nice and cool weapons( ice devil's spear, kuo toa archpriest mace etc ), the problem is that these weapons are also pretty powerful.
Would you as a dm let a pc have one of them?

The Ice Devil spear is a spear for a Large creature, so no. The Kuo-toa's scepter would be a normal, nonmagical mace in anyone else's hands, so they can use it all they want.

[Eslin]

I noticed that some monsters have really nice and cool weapons( ice devil's spear, kuo toa archpriest mace etc ), the problem is that these weapons are also pretty powerful.
Would you as a dm let a pc have one of them?

Yes, I would. A character will need to spend a feat becoming proficient with them and will need to be large size in order to wield them, usually through enlarge/reduce person which lasts a short time and leaves them weaponless if they lose it. That on top of the difficulty of tracking down and killing an ice devil for its spear leaves it a balanced option, and martials need all the nice things you can give them.

[Easy_Lee]

I would probably just keep the unique effects but lower the damage to be in line with regular weapons. That way it's a cool magic lewt without overpowering anything.

[badintel]

...you still have the issue of them being weapons for large creatures when the PCs are medium at most, so you can't use them effectively anyway.

I agree that these weapons should not be used as they are monster variant weapons, but I had a question that relates to PC size and weapons.

A halfling (small creature) can use a weapon meant for a medium creature without penalty, so why not a medium creature use a weapon made for a large creature?

[Scirocco]

I agree that these weapons should not be used as they are monster variant weapons, but I had a question that relates to PC size and weapons.

A halfling (small creature) can use a weapon meant for a medium creature without penalty, so why not a medium creature use a weapon made for a large creature?

Halflings can't use weapons with the "heavy" quality, as I recall. These weapons (which aren't really weapons so much as special attacks) would most likely be "super-heavy".

[Demonic Spoon]

I would probably just keep the unique effects but lower the damage to be in line with regular weapons. That way it's a cool magic lewt without overpowering anything.

^This right here.


The designers have said that the weapons in the MM were never balanced for use with player characters. Players could potentially be able to use such a weapon, but it would have to be re-statted, and depending on the weapon, potentially requiring something like the Weapon Master feat to learn to be proficient in.

[Baptor]

Yes, no, and it depends. :D

If the fiend was a boss fight, I'd have it drop a similar but not exact version of the weapon if it would be useful or cool. The ice spear might be a +2 spear that deals 1d6 extra cold damage or something.

In most cases though, I'd assume such weapons were part of the demon's "magic" similar to the Balor's weapons that disappear or turn to dust when it dies. (It does still do that, right?) In this case the fiends special weapons are just supernatural manifestations of its dark power.

[mephnick]

Even though they were never meant for PC's, I'd probably let them use them...with a catch.

They'd be slightly de-powered and in the case of a demon's spear I'd probably have a growing negative effect for wielding it.

[Grayson01]

Yes, no, and it depends. :D

If the fiend was a boss fight, I'd have it drop a similar but not exact version of the weapon if it would be useful or cool. The ice spear might be a +2 spear that deals 1d6 extra cold damage or something.

In most cases though, I'd assume such weapons were part of the demon's "magic" similar to the Balor's weapons that disappear or turn to dust when it dies. (It does still do that, right?) In this case the fiends special weapons are just supernatural manifestations of its dark power.

UGH!!! I had a DM (Who I played with for most of college) who threw tons of Demons, Devils, and Celestrials at us and all of their gear disapeared with them. SO WE NEVER GOT ANY LOOT!!!!!!! It was quite annoying. So if you do have them fight them and have the spear disapear back to it's plane hook them up with some loot to compensate down the line.

[Eslin]

^This right here.


The designers have said that the weapons in the MM were never balanced for use with player characters. Players could potentially be able to use such a weapon, but it would have to be re-statted, and depending on the weapon, potentially requiring something like the Weapon Master feat to learn to be proficient in.

If you don't want players using a weapon, don't give them access to it. There are requirements, a Dao's maul will require them to be large size to wield it and need a feat to become proficient in, but if they kill a Dao and take its maul if they fulfill those conditions there's nothing you can really do to stop them wielding it, and re-statting it makes no sense.

[JoeJ]

If you don't want players using a weapon, don't give them access to it. There are requirements, a Dao's maul will require them to be large size to wield it and need a feat to become proficient in, but if they kill a Dao and take its maul if they fulfill those conditions there's nothing you can really do to stop them wielding it, and re-statting it makes no sense.

You're absolutely right. It makes no sense whatsoever to try to re-stat something that doesn't have stats to begin with.

[Eslin]

You're absolutely right. It makes no sense whatsoever to try to re-stat something that doesn't have stats to begin with.

The stats are pretty obvious. Take a look at the Solar's stats - it does 4d6+8 damage plus 6d8 radiant damage. The 6d8 radiant damage clearly comes from the Solar's Angelic Weapons trait, so a regular character wielding it wouldn't get that, and the 8 damage clearly comes from their 26 strength - subtract those two, and a Solar's greatsword is sized for a large character and deals 4d6 damage.

[Shadow]

The stats are pretty obvious. Take a look at the Solar's stats - it does 4d6+8 damage plus 6d8 radiant damage. The 6d8 radiant damage clearly comes from the Solar's Angelic Weapons trait, so a regular character wielding it wouldn't get that, and the 8 damage clearly comes from their 26 strength - subtract those two, and a Solar's greatsword is sized for a large character and deals 4d6 damage.

Ans what you fail to realize is that Enlarge Person already accounts for the weapon growing by adding an additional 1d4 damage. Not an additional 2d6 damage. So a large sized great sword, by virtue of the effects of the Enlarge Person spell, deals 2d6+1d4+Str in the hands of a PC, not 4d6+Str.
Because the weapons that monsters use were never intended to be used by PCs, or they would have stats listed like the ones in the PHB.

[Eslin]

Ans what you fail to realize is that Enlarge Person already accounts for the weapon growing by adding an additional 1d4 damage. Not an additional 2d6 damage. So a large sized great sword, by virtue of the effects of the Enlarge Person spell, deals 2d6+1d4+Str in the hands of a PC, not 4d6+Str.
Because the weapons that monsters use were never intended to be used by PCs, or they would have stats listed like the ones in the PHB.

Clearly there's a difference between a regular medium sword scaled up with you and a greatsword crafted by angels specifically for use at that size. I realise that enlarge person adds a generic 1d4 damage, but have no idea why you think that is relevant. A black bear's claws do 2d4, a brown bear's claws do 2d6, a difference of more than 1d4 despite being the same creature scaled up in size. You can't generalise the way one specific spell affects your weapons to mean that all weapons scale in that manner.

[Shadow]

You can't generalise the way one specific spell affects your weapons to mean that all weapons scale in that manner.

You absolutely can, or the spell would specify different levels of additional damage for different weapons held. But it doesn't.
The main reason that it doesn't is because it doesn't need to, because once again, those weapons used by the monsters were never intended for PC use and were allocated damage dice based on monster philosophy rather than player philosophy.

It doesn't matter what weapon the PC is holding. If he doubles his size, his weapon doubles with him, and that weapon deals an additional 1d4 damage.
So a medium greatsword that grows to a large greatsword is exactly the same as a greatsword that was forged for a large creature. A large greatsword is a large greatsword is a large greatsword.
In the hands of a PC we can see exactly how much damage that large greatsword does by looking at the Enlarge Person spell.
It deals 2d6+1d4+Str.
It does not deal 4d6+Str.

[Baptor]

UGH!!! I had a DM (Who I played with for most of college) who threw tons of Demons, Devils, and Celestrials at us and all of their gear disapeared with them. SO WE NEVER GOT ANY LOOT!!!!!!! It was quite annoying. So if you do have them fight them and have the spear disapear back to it's plane hook them up with some loot to compensate down the line.

I'm not that DM. :smallsmile:

Like I said earlier, if the fight was significant and the weapon was such that I thought a player could use it, then I would make a "player friendly" version they could take away from the fight, or failing that allow them to "re-forge" the weapon to make it useful to them. One way or the other they'd get their trophy.

And of course if I did neither, they'd receive some kind of just reward for slaying said demon/fiend. I don't cheat my players.

I'm not a perfect DM, but my players are happy players. They are also not the kinds of players that enjoy walking out of the Abyss with a sack full of 15 ice devil spears to go sell on the Black Market in Sigil. 5e isn't that kind of game and those aren't my kind of players. YMMV

[JoeJ]

The stats are pretty obvious. Take a look at the Solar's stats - it does 4d6+8 damage plus 6d8 radiant damage. The 6d8 radiant damage clearly comes from the Solar's Angelic Weapons trait, so a regular character wielding it wouldn't get that, and the 8 damage clearly comes from their 26 strength - subtract those two, and a Solar's greatsword is sized for a large character and deals 4d6 damage.

Solar? In the post I was responding to you said Dao. If you're powerful enough to kill a Solar you probably won't have a lot of time to enjoy wielding its sword before the campaign is over.

[Eslin]

Solar? In the post I was responding to you said Dao. If you're powerful enough to kill a Solar you probably won't have a lot of time to enjoy wielding its sword before the campaign is over.

I'm nominating random creatures, you'll notice I try not to give the same example too many times in a row so people won't fixate on the example rather than the point.


You absolutely can, or the spell would specify different levels of additional damage for different weapons held. But it doesn't.
The main reason that it doesn't is because it doesn't need to, because once again, those weapons used by the monsters were never intended for PC use and were allocated damage dice based on monster philosophy rather than player philosophy.

It doesn't matter what weapon the PC is holding. If he doubles his size, his weapon doubles with him, and that weapon deals an additional 1d4 damage.
So a medium greatsword that grows to a large greatsword is exactly the same as a greatsword that was forged for a large creature. A large greatsword is a large greatsword is a large greatsword.
In the hands of a PC we can see exactly how much damage that large greatsword does by looking at the Enlarge Person spell.
It deals 2d6+1d4+Str.
It does not deal 4d6+Str.

I'm not sure where 'intended for PC use' comes in. If a monster has a weapon, players are going to try and use it - and it's clear looking at the profile what damage dice the weapon deals, and which part comes from the monster. If they want to make the damage come from the monster itself the monster's profile will say it adds x dice of damage to its weapons, or they'll just boost the monster's stats. When you take that stuff what you're left with is the weapon, and if players can make themselves large enough to use it and take the weapon master feat (which I'll remind you allows you to pick any weapons) then they can use it. You can say that according to your reading of enlarge weapon they should do 2d6+1d4 instead of 4d6, but the fact is they don't. They deal 4d6, written plain as day. If they wanted some of the damage the monster deals to be based on the monster rather than the weapon they have tools for that, tools which they use for a lot of monsters - but when you subtract those tools, what you're left with is what the weapon does.

[Hytheter]

So this is a little bit of a bump, but I've just realised that Lizardfolk also have a weapon not normally available to players: Spiked Shields. It's very clearly a mundane weapon that functions without the creature's input. It's also medium sized.

A d6 weapon that also provides +2 AC seems pretty powerful though. What do you guys think of that?

(Also what's the deal with Lizardfolk having three separate but identical d6 piercing melee attacks anyway? Do they even need a spiked shield when they already have a Javelin and a Bite attack?)

[Eslin]

So this is a little bit of a bump, but I've just realised that Lizardfolk also have a weapon not normally available to players: Spiked Shields. It's very clearly a mundane weapon that functions without the creature's input. It's also medium sized.

A d6 weapon that also provides +2 AC seems pretty powerful though. What do you guys think of that?

(Also what's the deal with Lizardfolk having three separate but identical d6 piercing melee attacks anyway? Do they even need a spiked shield when they already have a Javelin and a Bite attack?)

I think it's the reason I haven't thrown any lizardfolk at my players =P