San from Princess Mononoke

[Extra Anchovies]

What class(es) would she be? I'm interested in making a character thematically similar (okay, thematically identical) to her. Maybe Wilderness Rogue/Beastmaster? I'm also considering Fist of the Forest, but in the film she almost always prefers a melee weapon to unarmed strikes. It would let her bite stuff (which she has a tendency to do), but punching doesn't fit with her preference for spear or dagger.

For the wolves, I was thinking Wild Cohort to get one of them and dipping Beastmaster for two or three levels (and taking Natural Bond) for the second one.

I'm not sure what to do after level 12, once I finish Fist of the Forest. What do you all think?

[Venger]

one of my favorite movies.

You fortunately have a wealth of options here. since no class in D&D is truly mundane, you're invariably going to end up with some special powers she didn't exhibit in the movie, and the only restrictions on your options are how much you care about that kind of thing and whether it outweighs wanting an effective character.

while it's horrible from a practical play perspective, animal lord (wolflord) is pretty perfect. you get to talk to wolves, gain scent, don't get claws (since she uses a knife in the movie) and get to summon some wolves to help you kill people once in a while.

while it's not one of the things she does in the movie, do you actually want to be a wolf? if so, wild shape ranger into nature's warrior might be a fun option. if the option were available, I'm sure san would avail herself of it since she doesn't consider herself human.

a totemist dip/splash probably wouldn't be a bad idea since it's centered around drawing power from the natural world, and it has an unparalleled ability to beef up handle animal checks to get a wolfpack going in no time.

in order to recommend the best remaining levels for your specific buildstub assuming you want to stick with it, I need to know a little more about what you want to do on a regular basis in combat. as it stands, you're kind of all over the place. are you an a precision damage user? a power attacking brute? a minionmancer? will you focus on unarmed? the more info you provide, the better intel I can give.

I don't see any source of rage which, for San, seems a peculiar thematic choice, since it's probably how I'd characterize her fighting style every time we see her in action.

[Extra Anchovies]

one of my favorite movies.

I can tell. Nice avatar, by the way :smallsmile:


I don't see any source of rage which, for San, seems a peculiar thematic choice, since it's probably how I'd characterize her fighting style every time we see her in action.

I was initially thinking either Whirling Frenzy or Ferocity Barbarian, but with four not-particularly-synergetic classes to juggle (barbarian, rogue, beastmaster, FotF), it was a bit much. Maybe I should drop Fist of the Forest? It's costing three feats and not helping the build. What do you think?

[Venger]

I can tell. Nice avatar, by the way :smallsmile:



I was initially thinking either Whirling Frenzy or Ferocity Barbarian, but with four not-particularly-synergetic classes to juggle (barbarian, rogue, beastmaster, FotF), it was a bit much. Maybe I should drop Fist of the Forest? It's costing three feats and not helping the build. What do you think?

thanks. i think it makes me uniquely qualified to comment on the issue (and I've been watching the movie for 17 years)

whirling frenzy is rather grotesque in its terribleness. I'd just go for pouncebarian like normal people. I kind of like ferocity, but if you're not doing anything with dex, it's sort of a waste.

fist of the forest is vaguely OK if you're exploiting the con to AC thing or focusing for whatever reason on unarmed combat, neither of which you seem to be doing.

what is it you'd like to focus on? that might help somewhat. do you want to focus on dealing precision damage?

while (like all things in this game) it will probably require refluffing, have you thought about ronin? EWP bastard sword's pretty gross, but a reasonable GM will either waive it or let you take something else. even if he doesn't, you get a coupla useful bonus feats from the class alongside full BAB, 4 whole dice of sneak attack, and the banzai charge ability, which lets you take a -x penalty to AC and put the same amount as a bonus onto damage. plus it offers hide and MS as class skills (speaking of which, if your DM plays monsters smart, you'll probably want to jam darkstalker in there as early as possible, an unfortunate feat tax for skulky types)

throw leap attack into the mix since you have jump as a class skill when you need it (and to replicate the scene where she scales irontown's wall like it was nothing) and add to your power attack damage, as one does.

this works well in tandem with your existing power attack and brutish powers, plus it fits San's fighting style perfectly in the movie, like her one on one encounter with Eboshi. she just dives straight in there without any thought to defense. when eboshi starts taking her apart with her dagger, San makes no motions to parry with her knife, she's just focused on offense.

the ronin's flavorful (if essentially mechanically nonexistant) infamy disability is also noteworthy because this is also a somewhat noteworthy plot point of San's character. she's a mythic figure in irontown and part of that is because of her mask, an iconic symbol for what she represents, and later on when she has to join the people of irontown and do stuff, she's definitely taking hefty penalties to her cha-based checks with them since everyone hates her due to her killing a whole bunch of people.

how's that grab you?

[Extra Anchovies]

thanks. i think it makes me uniquely qualified to comment on the issue (and I've been watching the movie for 17 years)

whirling frenzy is rather grotesque in its terribleness. I'd just go for pouncebarian like normal people. I kind of like ferocity, but if you're not doing anything with dex, it's sort of a waste.

fist of the forest is vaguely OK if you're exploiting the con to AC thing or focusing for whatever reason on unarmed combat, neither of which you seem to be doing.

what is it you'd like to focus on? that might help somewhat. do you want to focus on dealing precision damage?

while (like all things in this game) it will probably require refluffing, have you thought about ronin? EWP bastard sword's pretty gross, but a reasonable GM will either waive it or let you take something else. even if he doesn't, you get a coupla useful bonus feats from the class alongside full BAB, 4 whole dice of sneak attack, and the banzai charge ability, which lets you take a -x penalty to AC and put the same amount as a bonus onto damage. plus it offers hide and MS as class skills (speaking of which, if your DM plays monsters smart, you'll probably want to jam darkstalker in there as early as possible, an unfortunate feat tax for skulky types)

throw leap attack into the mix since you have jump as a class skill when you need it (and to replicate the scene where she scales irontown's wall like it was nothing) and add to your power attack damage, as one does.

this works well in tandem with your existing power attack and brutish powers, plus it fits San's fighting style perfectly in the movie, like her one on one encounter with Eboshi. she just dives straight in there without any thought to defense. when eboshi starts taking her apart with her dagger, San makes no motions to parry with her knife, she's just focused on offense.

the ronin's flavorful (if essentially mechanically nonexistant) infamy disability is also noteworthy because this is also a somewhat noteworthy plot point of San's character. she's a mythic figure in irontown and part of that is because of her mask, an iconic symbol for what she represents, and later on when she has to join the people of irontown and do stuff, she's definitely taking hefty penalties to her cha-based checks with them since everyone hates her due to her killing a whole bunch of people.

how's that grab you?

Oooh, ronin does look nice! I can pick up some mounted combat feats for wolf-riding, which is good thing. Bye-bye fist of the forest; freeing up three feat slots, paying a feat tax of one, and gaining two more bonus feats = very good.

What is it thats bad about Whirling Frenzy? I'm also a bit leery about grabbing Lion Spirit Totem, what with the whole wolf flavor, but I suppose I could recolor it as wolf an pair it with non-spirit wolf totem if I really wanted to...

[Venger]

Oooh, ronin does look nice! I can pick up some mounted combat feats for wolf-riding, which is good thing. Bye-bye fist of the forest; freeing up three feat slots, paying a feat tax of one, and gaining two more bonus feats = very good.

What is it thats bad about Whirling Frenzy? I'm also a bit leery about grabbing Lion Spirit Totem, what with the whole wolf flavor, but I suppose I could recolor it as wolf an pair it with non-spirit wolf totem if I really wanted to...

yeah, I knew you'd like it. it's perfect for your needs. you even need to be nonlawful, so barb gets you right in there. lucky you, cuz it offers mounted feats, just like in the movie. it's a net bonus re: feats, so you're coming out ahead since I know you'll wanna take as many levels as you can.

the simplest answer is, why would you want to do 2 attacks when you can pounce like a normal melee character?

why are you leery? there is no flavor whatsoever associeated with it, it's just "gain pounce" (beware, it's su tho, so it'll turn off in an AMF. on the plus side your dm probably doesn't know this rule, because no one knows this rule) it's an RPG. like ronin, just refluff it. there's nothing unwolfy about moving and also attacking stuff. it's just a tax imposed on melee by our caster overlords.

sure, pair it with non-complete champion wolf totem. imptrip's a hell of a lot better than uncanny dodge. plus it opens the door for cool stuff like knockdown.

[Extra Anchovies]

yeah, I knew you'd like it. it's perfect for your needs. you even need to be nonlawful, so barb gets you right in there. lucky you, cuz it offers mounted feats, just like in the movie. it's a net bonus re: feats, so you're coming out ahead since I know you'll wanna take as many levels as you can.

the simplest answer is, why would you want to do 2 attacks when you can pounce like a normal melee character?

why are you leery? there is no flavor whatsoever associated with it, it's just "gain pounce" (beware, it's su tho, so it'll turn off in an AMF. on the plus side your dm probably doesn't know this rule, because no one knows this rule) it's an RPG. like ronin, just refluff it. there's nothing unwolfy about moving and also attacking stuff. it's just a tax imposed on melee by our caster overlords.

sure, pair it with non-complete champion wolf totem. imptrip's a hell of a lot better than uncanny dodge. plus it opens the door for cool stuff like knockdown.

WF barb doesn't lose fast movement, so can still grab LST for Pounce, and you can use whirling frenzy's bonus attack on a full attack. I might do ferocity for the AC boost; the Con bonus is of no importance to me, unless I am convinced otherwise.

Good point about the totems, though. If I'm reworking the Ronin fluff, I can rework the animal totem fluff as well. That would make the build something like Barbarian 5/Beastmaster 1/Ronin 10/Beastmaster +2?

[Venger]

WF barb doesn't lose fast movement, so can still grab LST for Pounce, and you can use whirling frenzy's bonus attack on a full attack. I might do ferocity for the AC boost; the Con bonus is of no importance to me, unless I am convinced otherwise.

Good point about the totems, though. If I'm reworking the Ronin fluff, I can rework the animal totem fluff as well. That would make the build something like Barbarian 5/Beastmaster 1/Ronin 10/Beastmaster +2?

(squint)

huh, look at that. so whirling frenzy basically gives you monk's flurry of blows (or flurry of misses, depending on your politics) ability. I'd always thought it gave you one extra attack on top of one attack (two total) to the exclusion of your normal iteratives. I guess I'd never actually read it before and was vaguely conflating it with whirlwind attack, which everyone knows is terrible for various reasons.

sure, that build looks pretty great. what level's your game going til? you mentioned getting moar animal companions through BM. are you gonna take more levels, or are you guys capping at 18?

[Extra Anchovies]

(squint)

huh, look at that. so whirling frenzy basically gives you monk's flurry of blows (or flurry of misses, depending on your politics) ability. I'd always thought it gave you one extra attack on top of one attack (two total) to the exclusion of your normal iteratives. I guess I'd never actually read it before and was vaguely conflating it with whirlwind attack, which everyone knows is terrible for various reasons.

sure, that build looks pretty great. what level's your game going til? you mentioned getting moar animal companions through BM. are you gonna take more levels, or are you guys capping at 18?

I'm glad to have helped you learn a new thing :smallsmile:

The game is arbitrary; I have no idea when I'll use this. I was just feeling inspired and will save this build for the next time I want a nature-themed minionmancer, because despite the minionmancy power of the summoner druid (you're a bear, your animal companion is a bear, you summon 1d4+1 bears per round, etc), I don't like playing casters (I have a bad habit of hoarding limited in-game resources regardless of the game, and that includes spell slots).

Beastmaster's subsequent companions are traps. They key off pure beastmaster level, and don't stack with druid/whatever. Since I don't get a feat at 20th (and thus can't take Natural Bond for companion #3), my build capstone would be an unenhanced wolf. Ick. Better to find a PrC that advances animal companion. Maybe Wild Plains Outrider? I can afford the feat tax without FotF eating all mah featz.

[Venger]

I'm glad to have helped you learn a new thing :smallsmile:

The game is arbitrary; I have no idea when I'll use this. I was just feeling inspired and will save this build for the next time I want a nature-themed minionmancer, because despite the minionmancy power of the summoner druid (you're a bear, your animal companion is a bear, you summon 1d4+1 bears per round, etc), I don't like playing casters (I have a bad habit of hoarding limited in-game resources regardless of the game, and that includes spell slots).

Beastmaster's subsequent companions are traps. They key off pure beastmaster level, and don't stack with druid/whatever. Since I don't get a feat at 20th (and thus can't take Natural Bond for companion #3), my build capstone would be an unenhanced wolf. Ick. Better to find a PrC that advances animal companion. Maybe Wild Plains Outrider? I can afford the feat tax without FotF eating all mah featz.

yep, thanks.

oh I gotcha. I build characters for fun sometimes too. I know just what you mean, the same thing happens to me when I play a caster or caster-type. Gishing is one way for me to solve it since I can use some of the spells as buffs and then take a face-ripping form like I did with a chameleon momf once, or I can use a subsystem with renewable resources, like a meldshaper, so I don't need to worry about novaing.

psionics are really good for "breaking" yourself of this habit since as long as you don't go insane with your power points, it's surprisingly hard to screw yourself over by spending too freely.

you will learn to love the list of stuff (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1068066)

I recommend vadalis beastkeeper from dragonmarked (not "vandalis" as it's incorrectly listed here)

it advances your animal companion and gives you other goodies besides, including unique spl progression (but only a little so it's not too overwhelming) with some pretty killer stuff.

all it requires is mounted combat (which you can get for free from ronin) and some skills you already have for beastmaster. plus it gives its own bonus feats of a similar persuasion every few levels.

and it doesn't even require a dragonmark!