Racial HD vs. Class HD?

[hgttg42]

Hey guys hope you are all having a good day, furthermore I hope you can assist me. I'm building a villain character for a campaign I'm running, but have run into a problem regarding the HD rules (the bane of my existence.)


I'm essentially adding a half dragon template from the SRD which states:

"Increase base creature’s racial HD by one die size, to a maximum of d12. Do not increase class HD."

Here is the source page for quick reference: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm

Were I building a centaur for example, 4d8 of monstrous humanoid would become 4d10. Easy. The problem therefore is; with human as the base creature this character doesn't actually have racial HD. I have nothing to increase. There is of course an LA of +3, but those are pseudo levels as it were, and not HD of a determined size.


I am quite flummoxed and would appreciate any help rendered. Thanks in advance.

[weckar]

You are right: There is nothing to increase. What is the problem?

[hgttg42]

You are right: There is nothing to increase. What is the problem?

In which case I simply don't get any increase? To be honest, I hadn't even thought of that eventuality :-/

[weckar]

That seems to be the case. The more RHD the more benefit. You have none. So no benefit.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

In which case I simply don't get any increase? To be honest, I hadn't even thought of that eventuality :-/

Yep, this is a common problem templates geared towards melee have. There may be some point where a half dragon is briefly viable, but for the early levels you'll be a ridiculous glass cannon with 1 HP/level (from +2 Con) not compensating for being down 3 HD. You'll have a high risk of getting one hit K.O'd by common enemies compared to a standard melee which will put you noticably behind until around ECL 10. Your +4 natural armor may help with this, but this combined with your 1/day breath weapon will make combat very swingy and may actually provoke the DM into using tougher monsters.

The strengh boost is nice, but you have to balance it against 3 BAB and three levels worth whatever combat ability you're class would give.

All this combines to suggest half-dragon was really designed for monsters with racial HD who will only be in one combat ever.

[Flickerdart]

All this combines to suggest half-dragon was most templates were really designed for monsters with racial HD who will only be in one combat ever.
Fixed it for you. LA is basically "well we know you're going to want to play really dumb races, you weirdos, so we'll make a rule instead of making you houserule this in, but because we don't actually want you to do this, we'll make every LA way too high."

[Psyren]

"You get NOTHING! Good DAY sir!" -Wonka


Yep, this is a common problem templates geared towards melee have. There may be some point where a half dragon is briefly viable, but for the early levels you'll be a ridiculous glass cannon with 1 HP/level (from +2 Con) not compensating for being down 3 HD. You'll have a high risk of getting one hit K.O'd by common enemies compared to a standard melee which will put you noticably behind until around ECL 10. Your +4 natural armor may help with this, but this combined with your 1/day breath weapon will make combat very swingy and may actually provoke the DM into using tougher monsters.

The strengh boost is nice, but you have to balance it against 3 BAB and three levels worth whatever combat ability you're class would give.

All this combines to suggest half-dragon was really designed for monsters with racial HD who will only be in one combat ever.

I think he IS the DM, since he mentioned building a villain.

[Flickerdart]

The nice thing about RHD is that they have a relatively low impact on CR. Your humanoid gets +1 CR for every four HD added. Compare:
Fighter level: +1 CR, +1d10 HD, +1 BAB, +1/2 initiator level, 0.9 feats (11 fighter feats + 7 standard feats over 20 fighter levels)
4 Humanoid levels: +1 CR, +4d8 HD, +3 BAB, +2 initiator level, 1.4 feats (7 standard feats over five 4-level blocks)

Sure, standard humans don't advance by HD, but there are always solutions like lycanthropy. How awesome would it be to have your average werebear grow sweet dragon wings when he shifts?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I think he IS the DM, since he mentioned building a villain.

I may have missed that or I may have been influenced by currently playing Way of the Wicked.

The points still work. He's using LA rather than CR and not having any monstrous HD, so he seems to be making the villian as a "character" rather than a "monster". All of the points I made about swingyness and glass cannoniness apply to monster as well as PC's. His villian may be intended for multiple appearances in which case PC's may have similiar negative reactions to what a DM might; picking up a single resist to neauter his opening round and/or crank up the overall optimization/DPR level leading to a 1-2 round "bossfight".

[Flickerdart]

picking up a single resist to neauter his opening round
No self-respecting half-dragon opens up with a breath weapon, unless he has a minion who goes first and specializes in Chain Dispel Magic.

Also there's a handy feat that makes the weapon a 1d4 round recharge, available at 6 HD (Draconomicon? Dragon Magic?).

[atemu1234]

Fixed it for you. LA is basically "well we know you're going to want to play really dumb races, you weirdos, so we'll make a rule instead of making you houserule this in, but because we don't actually want you to do this, we'll make every LA way too high."

Basically, yeah.

[Urpriest]

Hey guys hope you are all having a good day, furthermore I hope you can assist me. I'm building a villain character for a campaign I'm running, but have run into a problem regarding the HD rules (the bane of my existence.)


I'm essentially adding a half dragon template from the SRD which states:

"Increase base creature’s racial HD by one die size, to a maximum of d12. Do not increase class HD."

Here is the source page for quick reference: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm

Were I building a centaur for example, 4d8 of monstrous humanoid would become 4d10. Easy. The problem therefore is; with human as the base creature this character doesn't actually have racial HD. I have nothing to increase. There is of course an LA of +3, but those are pseudo levels as it were, and not HD of a determined size.


I am quite flummoxed and would appreciate any help rendered. Thanks in advance.

Just noticed this: if you're running the campaign and this is a villain, then you're making an NPC, so LA is a complete non-sequitur.

[hgttg42]

Thank you for your advice all, as a new DM it's good to get some feedback from more experienced players. Yes I am intending this to be a reoccurring villain, and was looking for something to make her more interesting than the cookie cutter fighter I had originally planned as a party npc. One of my players went and blew up my game plan so now I have to mix things up a bit :-)

P.S. Keeping track of the LA is simply for my convenience, so I can guesstimate what and what not would be a balanced opponent for the party.

[Killer Angel]

P.S. Keeping track of the LA is simply for my convenience, so I can guesstimate what and what not would be a balanced opponent for the party.

Well, the whole CR system is borked anyway, so the correct balance of encounters (balanced for your group, of course), often comes with experience.

[Crake]

No self-respecting half-dragon opens up with a breath weapon, unless he has a minion who goes first and specializes in Chain Dispel Magic.

Also there's a handy feat that makes the weapon a 1d4 round recharge, available at 6 HD (Draconomicon? Dragon Magic?).

I believe it's in races of the dragon actually

[Urpriest]

P.S. Keeping track of the LA is simply for my convenience, so I can guesstimate what and what not would be a balanced opponent for the party.

Why not use CR, though? It's designed for that purpose, while LA is not. Both have their flaws, but there's no reason for LA to be a better guide when it's not even intended to be used in that manner.

[Flickerdart]

P.S. Keeping track of the LA is simply for my convenience, so I can guesstimate what and what not would be a balanced opponent for the party.
LA is heavily weighted upwards as soon as any out of combat abilities come into play - abilities your villain will never be using, because what he does off-screen doesn't actually matter that much. Unlike a PC, the villain needs no racial or class abilities to acquire minions, rare magic items, strongholds, etc.

[hgttg42]

LA is heavily weighted upwards as soon as any out of combat abilities come into play - abilities your villain will never be using, because what he does off-screen doesn't actually matter that much. Unlike a PC, the villain needs no racial or class abilities to acquire minions, rare magic items, strongholds, etc.

A fair point, thank you. Have been thinking too much on the lines of PC building.