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crazedloon
2007-03-23, 12:42 AM
I was wondering what the general consensus on the power level, balance, playability, and any other general opinions were when comparing these two obviously similar but so dissimilar abilities.

Personally I like the Psionics far more then magic if you ask me I would prefer if magic went the way of psionics as "point buy" powers mean it is easier to customize a power. Currently I am working on a homebrew of a magic system point based which is far more free flow.

However as far as DnD I like the Psionics because they have options (many of the powers change based on additional power point usage) wear as magic sort of gets predictable after a while.

Also I would like to ask some of the bigger power gamers on these boards (As I am most defiantly not one) how does the wiz/sorc compare with the psion/wilder

Dhavaer
2007-03-23, 12:53 AM
The consensus seems to be that psionics are better balanced (i.e. not crazy powerful) than most casters.

I like the psionics system for partial casters like the psychic warrior. Vancian doesn't seem to work well for classes like the Ranger or Hexblade.

Jacob Orlove
2007-03-23, 01:03 AM
http://dauphinous.coyotecode.net/magicsystem.html is an awesome system that Dauphinous is using in a few games on this board (as a player in one, I have to give it a shout out).

In general, spellcasters are more powerful, because some spells are really good for their level. Even if you don't use the actively broken spells, it's pretty easy to end an encounter with something like Color Spray or Confusion.

Spellcasters also tend to have somewhat more endurance, which is important if you have several encounters/day (psionic characters tend to be stronger if they can recharge between most encounters).

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-23, 03:54 AM
Nah; even if you have a few encounters a day, the best spells are still better than the best powers, so a wizard can just unload all of his high-level spells.

Zincorium
2007-03-23, 04:10 AM
Most people who claim psionics is more powerful than magic haven't found that little item in the rules which disallows a player from spending more power points, total, on a power than they have manifester levels.

This rule is good for the game, because it prevents overcharging a single power (I've heard this referred to as 'going nova') at the expense of longevity. Speaking as a DM, I dislike it when players have to choose between resting in the middle of the freaking dungeon (oh how I loathe that cliche) and dying because they have no more resources after spending them all on one or two encounters.

Psions work better for this than wizards simply because they can use all of their power points on first level powers if the better ones aren't necessary.

Melantrist
2007-03-23, 04:15 AM
Well I play both casters and manifesters all the time(now that I think of it I've played only 1 rogue and 1 paladin out of the casting comunity) and to be honest I really preffer psionics. 1st- it's more realistic-everybody's got some sort of a limit of their powers. To be honest it has always seemed stupid to me the idea of having a set number of spells per day of a particular lvl, where psionics just dig out of the well util it's empty. And psionics are more practical- I remember that in one quest I used only 2 damaging powers and they were 1st and 3rd lvl - and they did everything they were supposed to even when I was 21st lvl!

Oh, why don't we just take the Cerebromancer PrCl and be done with it :smallbiggrin:
EDIT: about Zincorium: there are a number of metapsionic feats(like Overchannel) that allow raising your manifester lvl, and I haven't seen such feats for casters.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-23, 04:39 AM
Because the Cerebremancer is a double caster, Mystic Theurge style, and therefore sucks?

marjan
2007-03-23, 06:38 AM
EDIT: about Zincorium: there are a number of metapsionic feats(like Overchannel) that allow raising your manifester lvl, and I haven't seen such feats for casters.
There are feats like Elder Giant Magic or Reserve feats that raise CL under certain circumstances. There are also PrCs that allow you to raise CL (Archmage, Master Specialist...). So there are ways to do it and Overchanel does damage if I'm not wrong.

Also many items raise CL.

Starbuck_II
2007-03-23, 08:20 AM
There are feats like Elder Giant Magic or Reserve feats that raise CL under certain circumstances. There are also PrCs that allow you to raise CL (Archmage, Master Specialist...). So there are ways to do it and Overchanel does damage if I'm not wrong.

Also many items raise CL.
1d8 for 1, 3d8 for three at level 8, and 5d8 for three at level 15 I believe for Overchannel damage.

Theeon
2007-03-23, 10:22 AM
I believe that in the end game when you start going epic then a caster totally walks all over the psionics, but untill then psionics are almost broken. They spontaneously cast, they dont need somatic or verbal components, armor doesnt restrict their manifesting ability, and some of their abilities are crazy damaging like mind trust and psionic crush. Especially if you play with the variant that magic and psionics are not the same for SR and the such the a scion could theoretically 1 shot a caster at first level, something that happens rarely the other way around.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-23, 10:46 AM
I believe that in the end game when you start going epic then a caster totally walks all over the psionics, but untill then psionics are almost broken. They spontaneously cast, they dont need somatic or verbal components, armor doesnt restrict their manifesting ability, and some of their abilities are crazy damaging like mind trust and psionic crush.

Nonsense. Psions spontaneously cast, can wear armor, and don't need componenents... but none of that changes the fact that they just plain can't do the things wizards can do. Take Slow and Haste, two classically powerful third-level spells. Together, they can take a fight from difficult to ridiculously easy. Can a psion do that? No. Do they have Sleep at low levels? No.

Mind Thrust is d10s not d6es, but it's single target with Will negates, and is mind-affecting. Meanwhile, wizards get Orb of X (higher-level, but wait, psions have to augment their Mind Thrust, meaning it'll wind up being higher effective level than the Orbs), which does no-save, no-SR d6es.

There are a few unbalanced psionic powers, either because they're clones of unbalanced spells (Metamorphosis/Polymorph) or because they're poorly designed (Energy Missile's too good because it can do sonic and target objects), but far fewer than there are unbalanced spells.

Psionics: it's weaker than arcane magic. Period.

Edit: at first level, the wizard could drop a Sleep on the mind-thrusting Psion. Both spells are Will negates, but if the save is failed, the wizard might survive (5 to 8 HP; very good chance of survival, actually); the Psion falls asleep and gets coup-de-graced.

kamikasei
2007-03-23, 10:53 AM
I believe that in the end game when you start going epic then a caster totally walks all over the psionics, but untill then psionics are almost broken. They spontaneously cast, they dont need somatic or verbal components, armor doesnt restrict their manifesting ability, and some of their abilities are crazy damaging like mind trust and psionic crush. Especially if you play with the variant that magic and psionics are not the same for SR and the such the a scion could theoretically 1 shot a caster at first level, something that happens rarely the other way around.

They spontaneously cast from a list of powers more limited than a sorcerer's spell selection. And the two abilities you mention are mind-affecting, so that casters would have the best defenses against them.

Why would you want to play with the psionics-is-different variant? That makes it harder for a non-psionic character to resist a psion.

Orzel
2007-03-23, 10:54 AM
I prefer Psionics because I don't like spell slots once you have more than 4 per level. It's a bit harder to beat up things with base lowel level stuff.

truemane
2007-03-23, 12:37 PM
Psions are certainly more flexible within a given range of abilities. The fact that a single power can be used from 1st level all the way up to 20th (like Astral Construct) gives Psions a lot of options that the arcane types do not have.

But their power selection is limited. Woefully limited. Whereas a Wizard's Spell Selection is efectively infinite. With the ease of researching new spells, and there being no limit on the number of spells a Wizard can know, a Wizard can theoretically do anything if given some prep time. A Psion, while he can use his abilities in a lot of different ways, is always going to be restricted to several narrow modes of behaviour.

And I always use the Psionics is Different rules. Just because it's fun to have two such powerful forces completely unable to properly deal with each other.

Their strengths, I think, equal out.

If I was playing one single Mid-to-High level encounter, I'd play a Wizard. Because a Wizard's biggest boom stick is going to be bigger than a Psion's.

One single Mid-to-High adventure, I'd play a Psion. Because the flexibility allows you build a character prepared for many things, and not need prep time to properly deal with them.

One single long-term campaign? Wizard. Over time, the Wizard's ability to know anything they can afford to research makes them the best (and most interesting) long-term bet.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-23, 12:41 PM
One single Mid-to-High adventure, I'd play a Psion. Because the flexibility allows you build a character prepared for many things, and not need prep time to properly deal with them.

Where'd this "wizards can't do well unless they know exactly what they're going to fight the next day" thing come from?

truemane
2007-03-23, 12:56 PM
Where'd this "wizards can't do well unless they know exactly what they're going to fight the next day" thing come from?

From the fact that their abilties are effectively infinite, but their options at any one given time are very, very finite. If you know you're going to be fighting bad guys, and little else, you load up on your Fireballs and your Chain Lightning, and you're off to the races.

But what happens if you're all prepared for Blasting and you wind up in some overly complicated puzzle room where the party could sorely use some Spider Climb and a Rope Trick or two?

Wizards do very well when they're prepared for what's coming at the, and less well when they're not. And they always have.

Fax Celestis
2007-03-23, 12:57 PM
He has a point, regardless of the fact that blasting is a bad idea.

Khantalas
2007-03-23, 12:58 PM
Why would you ever prepare fireball unless you're bored? Are you trying to nerf yourself?

And for some reason, I can't think of a way you can use the Rope Trick to solve a puzzle.

truemane
2007-03-23, 02:09 PM
Neither can I actually. I just picked two spells as different as I could think of, off the top of my head.

Orzel
2007-03-23, 02:22 PM
It's more like "I only prepared 3 Will save spells and 2 anti-SR spells today." After level 13 or so, a wiz/sorc has enough slots to prepare for a little of anything. Before then, you might see a wizard shooting Fort spells at raging dwarven barbs because he only expected to fight 3 of them and not 20.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-23, 03:46 PM
From the fact that their abilties are effectively infinite, but their options at any one given time are very, very finite. If you know you're going to be fighting bad guys, and little else, you load up on your Fireballs and your Chain Lightning, and you're off to the races.

But what happens if you're all prepared for Blasting and you wind up in some overly complicated puzzle room where the party could sorely use some Spider Climb and a Rope Trick or two?

Wizards do very well when they're prepared for what's coming at the, and less well when they're not. And they always have.

Nonsense; many spells are always useful, or close enough to it. Overland Flight, for example--that permanently occupies a spell slot. Haste and Slow are great bets; one works on your party, the other works on pretty much anything.
Ray of Enfeeblement and Grease are always safe first-level bets. You pack a Rope Trick every day; same for a Glitterdust and/or a Web, Black Tentacles, et cetera. If a wizard knows that, yup, tomorrow's Undead-Hunting Day, he'll switch his usual list, but if he doesn't know that and some undead pop up, he'll Slow them and throw the Tentacles at them just fine.

You also craft scrolls on a regular basis, especially of occasionally-useful utility spells. Spider Climb? You've got one better, a scroll of Fly. Or three.

Theeon
2007-03-25, 02:53 AM
im not arguing that wizards are better at the high levels but psions arnt as bad as you make them out to be they have some pretty powerful powers too, like clone or metaconcert, or fusion. and who needs spider climb or fly when you can use greater psionic teleport like 20 times a day when you get it. so wizards get a lot more spells, bid deal. its basically like "oh oh i have the perfect spell for that, to bad didnt prepare it today because i get crap spells per day" where if your a scion you only need one or two damaging spells to be effective and then the rest are utility spells that you can use so many times a day, i not sure if i have ever even heard of a psion running out of power points. plus they can always control body a wizard and thats a fort save and they suck at fort saves and then your helpless and screwed up the ass royally.

Ramza00
2007-03-25, 03:32 AM
Because the Cerebremancer is a double caster, Mystic Theurge style, and therefore sucks?
Disagree you can easilery do early entry tricks for precoious apprentice only requires 1 lvl in wizard thus

Wizard 1/Psion 3/Cerebemancer 10
13th lvl psion (7th powers), 11th lvl wizard (6th lvl spells)

Were-Sandwich
2007-03-25, 05:46 AM
im not arguing that wizards are better at the high levels but psions arnt as bad as you make them out to be they have some pretty powerful powers too, like clone or metaconcert, or fusion. and who needs spider climb or fly when you can use greater psionic teleport like 20 times a day when you get it. so wizards get a lot more spells, bid deal. its basically like "oh oh i have the perfect spell for that, to bad didnt prepare it today because i get crap spells per day" where if your a scion you only need one or two damaging spells to be effective and then the rest are utility spells that you can use so many times a day, i not sure if i have ever even heard of a psion running out of power points. plus they can always control body a wizard and thats a fort save and they suck at fort saves and then your helpless and screwed up the ass royally.
Paragraphs are your firend. as are full stops.

The inherent flaw in your arguement is that you assume the wizard is going to let you get into range, and let you see him, and nt have some kind of blanket spell/power protection up.

tj_hammi
2007-03-25, 07:31 AM
first and foremost this is my first post and i would like to say that i have this arguement many a time within my roleplaying circles. i would like to know why no one has even considered or mentioned the alternate wizard spell point system? while i understand that this system is a joining of the wizard sorceror and psion concepts to benefit the wizard at the end of the day does this system not make a little more sense?

the ability to study(prepare) your spells in the morning almost refreshing you memory of the bajillion million spells in your spell book and then via your internal power(spell points) you are able to use and manipulate the spells in you know? it seems to strike a balance inbetween the psion and wizard concepts.

ZekeArgo
2007-03-25, 08:16 AM
first and foremost this is my first post and i would like to say that i have this arguement many a time within my roleplaying circles. i would like to know why no one has even considered or mentioned the alternate wizard spell point system? while i understand that this system is a joining of the wizard sorceror and psion concepts to benefit the wizard at the end of the day does this system not make a little more sense?

the ability to study(prepare) your spells in the morning almost refreshing you memory of the bajillion million spells in your spell book and then via your internal power(spell points) you are able to use and manipulate the spells in you know? it seems to strike a balance inbetween the psion and wizard concepts.

While certainly an interesting system, the problem with this system, and why the psionic system works as written, is that arcane spells are just so much more powerful than powers.

Now sure, you have to spend spell points to augment spells now, but a batman wizard who doesn't use many direct damage spells can now wantonly toss around his best crowd control spells and whatever else he may need.

To put it simply: a spellpoint system makes one of the most powerful classes *even more* powerful.

tj_hammi
2007-03-25, 08:21 AM
alright you have an extremely good point about making a powerfull class even more powerfull however does the prepared spell system not weaken the class? in my opinion the system works and is effective yes. but it does not make sense and does not convert to a realistic way of implementing ones powers. that is my attraction towards the spell point system. is there a middle ground somewhere out there?

if so where do i find it?

ZekeArgo
2007-03-25, 08:27 AM
alright you have an extremely good point about making a powerfull class even more powerfull however does the prepared spell system not weaken the class? in my opinion the system works and is effective yes. but it does not make sense and does not convert to a realistic way of implementing ones powers. that is my attraction towards the spell point system. is there a middle ground somewhere out there?

if so where do i find it?

As I said, yes the spellpoint system is far more interesting and intuitive, but the problem is that arcane and divine spells have been balanced around the presence of a Vancian spell system. In order to impliment a new system you would have to go in and change every single spell so that it not only worked within the new system, but retained the "DnD Flavor" that has kept spells like Magic Missle and Mage Armor in the game for so long.

Ranis
2007-03-25, 08:30 AM
I don't like psionics because they don't fit the style of what I consider good fantasy roleplaying for the same reasons that I don't like D20 Modern. Not saying that I don't use a few psionic characters myself occasionally to mix things up, but for the vast majority of things, Psionics don't fit into my worlds, and that's why I don't allow them. I don't claim to know anything about them, for that matter.

The spellpoint system is in Unearthed Arcana, tj_hammi.

tj_hammi
2007-03-25, 08:33 AM
so in your opinion what of the cerebramancer? can the two classes mix effectively? can the class be effective? im looking at the pros and cons

Fizban
2007-03-25, 11:53 AM
I prefer the massive number of random arcane spells in existance (like the spell compendium for example), but I like psionics too. I have only two beefs.

1: I'm not as familiar with them, so I can't rattle off what powers are good off the top of my head.

2: They actually get more effective spells known than the sorcerer, since they can augment their blasting spells instead of needing to upgrade from fireball to cone of cold. If I knew more about their crowd control spells I'd take a stance there, but I don't, so I won't.

Latronis
2007-03-25, 12:19 PM
IMO the the augmenting of powers is what a sorcerer should be like.

That said i prefer the vancian system for mages and clerics, makes you work for your power and it makes as much sense as any other system of magic

Rigeld2
2007-03-25, 12:51 PM
Disagree you can easilery do early entry tricks for precoious apprentice only requires 1 lvl in wizard thus
Wont fly with a lot of DMs, and I think CustServ has ruled against it working. Try again.

Belteshazzar
2007-03-25, 01:57 PM
I use psionics as my my worlds sorcery (in other words I eliminate the sorcerer class from my world) It simply makes more sense to me. I run my games with Arcane / Psionics transparency as well as as Divine / Arcane transparency (the logic being that Arcane magic is a mixture of both disciplines). This being said much of Complete Psionics is so much Complete Uselessness (sub-par psionic versions of already functioning classes). I tend to ignore that book except on a case by case ruling.

Ramza00
2007-03-25, 02:05 PM
Wont fly with a lot of DMs, and I think CustServ has ruled against it working. Try again.
It doesn't work with Mystic Theurge for Mystic Theurge has divine spells and as soon as you get 2nd lvl Divine Spells that slot becomes a Divine slot.

Psionics are not spells, thus it works. Same thing with Binder into Anima Mage, Mysteries into Noctumancer, and Warlock into Eldritch Theurge.

So in other words it up to your DM not to houserule it, but by the rules it does work.

Ramza00
2007-03-25, 02:09 PM
first and foremost this is my first post and i would like to say that i have this arguement many a time within my roleplaying circles. i would like to know why no one has even considered or mentioned the alternate wizard spell point system? while i understand that this system is a joining of the wizard sorceror and psion concepts to benefit the wizard at the end of the day does this system not make a little more sense?

the ability to study(prepare) your spells in the morning almost refreshing you memory of the bajillion million spells in your spell book and then via your internal power(spell points) you are able to use and manipulate the spells in you know? it seems to strike a balance inbetween the psion and wizard concepts.
The spellpoint system doesn't work for you just cast the minimum spell points, there is no "scaling" like there is with augmentation and psionics. There is one except you have to "augment" direcct damage spells to get the right amount of damage, but of course those are usually the worse spells for a mage to cast. To make the spell point system work you have to completely rewrite each individual spell but by doing that you effectively created psionics.

AmberVael
2007-03-25, 02:19 PM
Personally, I like psionics better.
Psionics have more versatility with power strength. Their powers can be optimized to do just what they need to do, and spend no more resources than they have to.
Psionics have more instantaneous versatility as well.
As in, best prepared to deal with unexpected things. Wizards can be freaking awesomely versatile over time, but if you say "I need such and such, now!" there is a chance they can't provide until about 8 hours later.
Though I do remember the empty slot and 15 minute thing that someone (I think it was TLN) pointed out. VERY handy, but even then, what if you need it in combat?
"Sure! I've got it! Just hold them off for 15 minutes while I study!"
*party dies*

Now that is an utter exaggeration, and wizards could probably adapt many spells to work for them, but the point is that psions can use any of their powers, not just a set number of them. Its like this-
For short periods of time, Psions have a slight advantage.
For long periods of time, Wizards have a good advantage. As in, they beat Psions to death with a stick.

Anyways-
Furthermore, Psions power points are a far simpler system of management as well, and I think most of their powers have a good amount of options for use, unlike some one purpose spells.
But... there are tons more spells than powers (a fact which saddens me).

To cut a long story short-
Psions = Simple, quickly usable people.
Wizards = More book keeping for more uber awesomeness.
So I tihnk what separates them is the amount of time you need for them both in game and out of game. Psions require little, wizards require a fair bit. But, overall, the wizard has more options and capability.

Ramza00
2007-03-25, 02:23 PM
so in your opinion what of the cerebramancer? can the two classes mix effectively? can the class be effective? im looking at the pros and cons
Yes the class can be effective if you use an early entry trick, if you don't use an early entry trick you are just 3 spellcasting/psionic lvls behind and that is just too much of a gap.

But if you are just 1 lvl behind in psionics, and 3 in wizard you are still an effective psion, and your a wizard. You get the spontanetity of chosing which powers to use and how strong to make them on the fly, while at the same time allowing you to be batman with a wizard (thus you antagonize over choosing your spells to cover all your bases and create virtual defenses). Finally you can use the same casting stat for psion and arcane thus reducing mad. A crebemancer with an early entry trick synergizes real well for you cover all your weak spots with the other class, thus in my mind its a good combo.

Regardless that in my mind cerbemancer is good, there are far better other things you can do such as plain druid, a cleric rsop who can heal and melee, or a wizard who does incantatrix or master specialist/innate of sevenfold veil. Regardless I still very much like cerbemancer and in some ways prefer it (sacrificing raw power for versatility).

clericwithnogod
2007-03-25, 02:33 PM
I don't like psionics because it just doesn't seem to add enough to justify investing the time to get familiar with all the ins and outs and DMs often don't bother to learn the system as well as they do the rest of the rules.

In the games in which I've seen a player bring psionics into a game, a similar pattern emerges. Psionic tears through a few encounters, then the DM goes back and re-reads the rules in between sessions, finds out the player was wrong about how the powers worked, and makes adjustments. Then the next level the psionic gets new powers, and the same thing happens all over again. Then the DM stops in the middle of every encounter to re-check everything the psionic does. It disrupts the game for the rest of the players.

The easy answer is not to use it if you don't want to take the time to learn it well (which is my solution when I DM). But, a lot of DMs allow it in first and then spend the rest of their (and the players) time muddling around and fixing things after the fact.

Some things, like Tome of Battle, add enough to the game that it's worth taking the time to learn them well. To me, psionics just doesn't do that.

Khantalas
2007-03-25, 02:36 PM
That is the same with spells, you know. You get new spells and the DM doesn't know how they work.

Best if you just ban magic at the beginning and work with psionics.

kamikasei
2007-03-25, 03:15 PM
In the games in which I've seen a player bring psionics into a game, a similar pattern emerges. Psionic tears through a few encounters, then the DM goes back and re-reads the rules in between sessions, finds out the player was wrong about how the powers worked, and makes adjustments. Then the next level the psionic gets new powers, and the same thing happens all over again. Then the DM stops in the middle of every encounter to re-check everything the psionic does. It disrupts the game for the rest of the players.

If the player is so consistently wrong about what his powers can do why is the DM taking his word for it at all? Is it so much effort to have the player give you the text of the powers he's using, and borrow the book or browse d20srd.org for long enough to check what unfamiliar terms mean?

As Khantalas says, not knowing what your player's powers do is no more legitimate a complaint than not knowing what their spells do. Are psionics really so different and so much more complex than magic that a DM shouldn't be expected to know enough to judge a power's abilities from its description? Or is it perhaps that the DMs you mention just weren't bothered making a minimal effort to understand the system?

Marius
2007-03-26, 09:29 AM
Disagree you can easilery do early entry tricks for precoious apprentice only requires 1 lvl in wizard thus

Wizard 1/Psion 3/Cerebemancer 10
13th lvl psion (7th powers), 11th lvl wizard (6th lvl spells)

No, you need 2nd level spells and 2nd level powers to become a Cerebremancer.

At level 20th you can be a Psion 7 / Wizard 3 / Cerebremancer 10
17th level psion (9th powers) / 13th level wizard (7th spells) (or viceversa)

Any full level psion or wizard is more powerful than a Cerebremancer. Having many powers or spells is not better than having more powerful spells (or powers) and a higher caster o manifester level.
A cerebremancer is more powerful than a Mystic Theurge because of the Int synergy but straight psions or wizards are still better than Cerebremancers.
Cerebremancers also lose feats and psicrystal (and familiar) progressions.

Khantalas
2007-03-26, 09:37 AM
I think Precocious Apprentice gives you the ability to cast one 2nd level spell at 1st level with a Concentration check. That's the early entry trick.

Of course, who cares? Go play a psion. Magic is terrible and is not balanced in any way.

Morty
2007-03-26, 09:45 AM
Meh. One of the reasons I prefer magic over psionic is that I prefer Vancian magic system to completely unoriginal point system. I don't care about balance, since I don't play fully-optimized casters anyway, not to mention playing in low-magic games. Psionic is okay, as long as it's not some 'magic in disguise' system with classes, races and items.

Aquillion
2007-03-26, 12:12 PM
Full casters like wizards are certainly better than psions. I think most people agree that Psionic Warriors are among the better partial casters, though (which still just makes them well-balanced, not uber). They don't have massive numbers of abilities, but they tend to get exactly what they need... mobility, a few buffs, status protection, ways to negate several of the most common caster strategies, plus a little bit of utility. Compare that to a Paladin's remove disease. Yeah.