3.5 Demons vs. Devils

[Chester]

Strictly from your own experience:

1. Which are more formidable foes?
2. Which are more "fun" to run as a DM?
3. Which are more likely to buddy up with undead?

[frogglesmash]

Orcus is lord of the undead and a demon prince so that answers your third question.

[Xelbiuj]

Devils, if played right.
Dunno
Demons, Orcus plus, per Fiend Folio, Devils use lots of fire because they're immune to it, not exactly great for undead.

[calam]

1.Devils since they are pretty similar stat wise except devils work together and use more strategy in fluff.

2. I think that this is up to personal preference but I'd say devils since my players tend to be thinkers so I prefer using something that can think as well as them. On the other hand the randomness of demons is fun to play around with

3.demons for what the people above said

[aleucard]

Demons have the slight edge individually from what I remember, but teamwork is crucial in 3.5, so the win goes to Devils.

Varies on personal preference, but it's easier to slot in Demons to all sorts of insane "A Wild [insert mob name here] Appears!" situations without much thought, whereas Devils tend to go for convoluted schemes within schemes, which is a LOT of bookwork to do properly.

Fourth verse, same as the first.

[Crake]

2. I think that this is up to personal preference but I'd say devils since my players tend to be thinkers so I prefer using something that can think as well as them. On the other hand the randomness of demons is fun to play around with

Chaotic creatures are equally capable of being cunning and smart, just their method and goal varies from a lawful person.

That said, I've always found the most formidable foes are ones that use the world against you, manipulators from the shadows, and while I typically use succubi for that role, many devils can fill that role as well.

For me though, succubi are the most fun to run, their abilities just mesh so well with screwing with your players.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Demons just seem way more powerful overall, when compared to similar CR devils. The disadvantage is supposed to be that they're completely disorganized and as likely to kill each other as the party, but...pretty much any double digit CR demon with a decent Int score is described as a "tactician" for the demonic forces, so...so much for balance by fluff.

Legion Devils are basically the one notably exception, and they dominate by utilizing significant numbers, more of a demon thing. Other than them, demons are almost always stronger. Better stats, better abilities (that cause instant calamity, not some devil chills or poison or whatever), often more HD... I buff my devils and run demons as written, and the party has a harder time with the demons even so.

As for fun to run...I really like the concept of devils using tactics and unit cohesion to be stronger than the sum of their parts, and the whole tempting mortals and being misleading yet technically honest is interesting. Succubi work a lot like devils and are by far the most fun demon for me to run.

[NotScaryBats]

I love demons, but find many devils to be uninspiring. The succubus, lilitu, marilith, and maurezhi are all demons, and are all super cool. Also, demons came first, which I respect.

[RoboEmperor]

Devils are organized, demons are not.
Devils plan centuries ahead. I think all demons except glabrezus plan only 1 second ahead. It's even in the guidelines for DMs that if you use a succubus terrorizing a village, the succubi's love for hanging mutilated corpses everywhere will always get her caught by the adventurers. Devils don't do that.

So if you want some sort of dark and evil mastermind controlling kings as puppets, use devils in your campaign.
If you want some sort of simple encounter, like a puzzle or mystery to solve in a village, go demon.

For straight up fights, go demons because devils won't fight you. You will fight them in order to stop their plans, unless the devil needs or wants you dead.

1. They're both formidable, but I'll say demons because they can't be reasoned with. Devils can and even make deals with you.
2. I'd say devil. A simple campaign would be, your adventurers do some stuff to help a kingdom, then they find devil taint, and then they try to find the puppet master who is trying to create a full-scale devil invasion OR, more lore friendly, trying to create a new world where everyone is evil (i.e. stir up rebellions, frame innocents, etc.)
The entirety of your campaign could arise from some guy making a deal with a devil. Maybe a princess of an overthrown king sells her soul to enact vengeance and destroy the kingdom.
3. Neither. Demons and Devils don't associate with undead, although necromancers associate with demons and devils if they need to. Demons and devils summon or request help from their own kin, not undead.

[LTwerewolf]

Pit fiends have regeneration, Balors do not.

[Trundlebug]

Strictly from your own experience:

1. Which are more formidable foes?
2. Which are more "fun" to run as a DM?
3. Which are more likely to buddy up with undead?

1. Individually?;Devils. As a whole? Devils. Demon's don't stop though. Really. They don't stop. They keep coming, and coming, and... well they advance as a horde also.
2. Haha both. Devils require way more prep as I am no lawyer so I'd say the edge goes to demons in this category. But those devils, the shenanigans...
Orcus. Orcus of Orcus. Orcus orcuses the orcus from the orcus. Don't you Orcus?

[LTwerewolf]

1. Individually?;Devils. As a whole? Devils. Demon's don't stop though. Really. They don't stop. They keep coming, and coming, and... well they advance as a horde also.
2. Haha both. Devils require way more prep as I am no lawyer so I'd say the edge goes to demons in this category. But those devils, the shenanigans...
Orcus. Orcus of Orcus. Orcus orcuses the orcus from the orcus. Don't you Orcus?

I'd agree with part of #2. My issue with demons is that they always tend to be chaotic stupid. That's not really fun to me. "Let's do whatever because I don't care whether or not it makes sense." That's how it always comes across. Devils do require a lot of prep time though. Their plans are very intricate and convoluted. There's always the caveat when player's find plot holes though. "A devil did it."

[Erik Vale]

Legion Devils are basically the one notably exception, and they dominate by utilizing significant numbers, more of a demon thing. Other than them, demons are almost always stronger. Better stats, better abilities (that cause instant calamity, not some devil chills or poison or whatever), often more HD... I buff my devils and run demons as written, and the party has a harder time with the demons even so.

Orthons, also better by numbers, have Pseudo cleave, project dimensional anchor at will, and can make two typless crossbow attacks per round at full BAB, while having a group bonus. Steel also have a group bonus.

However, neither Orthons nor Steel share HP.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm probably in a minority here, but I find the Succubus far too cliché to use in a game. The "evil seductress" archetype is so common in fantasy fiction that putting it in fantasy games is too much. I prefer the Glabrezu, who tempts with power and prestige rather than with the more fleshy pleasures.

[Eldan]

You don't have to use Succubi that way. They can do all kinds of interesting stuff, just by being relatively powerful, charismatic and shapeshifters. Run criminal gangs selling drugs. Become advisors to the king. Seduce the king, of course. Play a helpless old woman on the road and trick the PCs into helping her. There's thousands of things they can do.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You don't have to use Succubi that way. They can do all kinds of interesting stuff, just by being relatively powerful, charismatic and shapeshifters. Run criminal gangs selling drugs. Become advisors to the king. Seduce the king, of course. Play a helpless old woman on the road and trick the PCs into helping her. There's thousands of things they can do.

Optimized properly, they're frighteningly dangerous grapplers. And yeah, there's a lot of combat options for shapeshifters, like War Shaper. Then add in how many things you can apply charisma to if you look for them and yeah... My friend made an incubus (just a male version of succubus) grappling character that wasn't subtle at all and would just destroy everything up close.