Pacifist Survival

[kpenguin]

I'm planning on making a god of peace with a pacifist clergy. Any ideas on how to make it so its believable they don't all die within the first few years of their church's foundation?

[marjan]

Give them domain that allows to add your level to nonlethal damage with every strike.

[kpenguin]

To be clear, they are pacifists in the truest sense. No violence at all.

[Jack Mann]

Give them few enemies, and place them in a culture that is, if not in full agreement with its ethos, then tolerant of it. They can be protected by that society even if they themselves are generally unwilling to harm others.

EDIT: Keep in mind that, as true pacifists, they're not a great threat to anyone. They might be opposed by the evil deities, but killing them is not likely to be a huge priority, compared with the Church of Smacky, the Lawful Good deity of beating up evil.

[marjan]

Check out Vow of Nonviolence & Vow of Peace feats from BoED. It's not true pacifism but you might get useful ideas. And the fact that nonmagical weapons can't hurt them would prove quite useful. Maybe you could homebrew domain that offers these feats as granted domain power.

Edit: Maybe you could put them on the plane of their own that oposes violence by itself (something like Elemental Plane of Love, Peace etc. :smallcool: ). Maybe conditions on the plane duplicate the effect of Calm Emotions spell or similar.

[Jack Mann]

You can give them pretty much any power you deem fit, with the explanation that they're protected by their deity. Giving them abilities like that could be fitting.

I'm assuming that this church isn't meant for PCs (since D&D doesn't really work well if you can't participate in combat of any sort), so you've got a pretty free hand in designing them. If PCs don't have access to the abilities, you don't need to worry so much about balancing them, or keeping to the normal rules.

[Kantolin]

compared with the Church of Smacky, the Lawful Good deity of beating up evil.

Man... I really need to set up a panthenon with the random dieties I see named here frequently. ^_^ Smacky, along with Stabicles, the diety of buffing onesself up and beating things.

Anyway, do they believe in subdue-ing their foes in any fashion? One could use, say, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, walls, and general grappling-pinning-manacles, mixed with jail. Those are effective methods of solving combative situations without direct combat or direct harm.

[factotum]

Well, you could make it so they're protected by the armed forces of the country they reside in, or something like that--maybe the order was founded by a King who renounced violence and gave up the throne, or something, and his descendants have felt themselves beholden to protect the order!

[Jack Mann]

Indeed. The kingdom may be quite practical about violence, but it's always good to see someone acting good and holy as an example for the children. That way everyone else can be as bellicose as they like.

[Dark]

You could give them an important job to do. Perhaps the country was once ripped apart by magical forces. The founder of this church had put it back together again, and the clerics of the order must perform daily rituals to keep the country together. They have to renounce violence because that would interfere with the calmness of mind they need to do this.

The country will protect these priests out of not-being-ripped-apart-again self interest :) Also, only enemies of the country as a whole will want to harm them.

[marjan]

Give them also some bonus on Diplomacy. Since they don't fight they should be quite good at avoiding it.

[Jack Mann]

Or perhaps they do a lot of charity work. Heal the sick, feed the poor, that sort of thing. Even if people don't agree with them, they'll still like them quite a bit. "'Ere now, don't you be 'urtin' Brother Mendicore! 'E's a good bloke, 'elped our Pelia when she got the white lung."

[kamikasei]

Give them nothing worth taking from them. Perhaps also give them something to do that doesn't harm anyone and profits everyone, so having them doing it would be in everyone's interests.

Give them protections that prevent others from attacking them. Mind-affecting and abjurative spells, homebrewed Zone spells to make their temples true sanctuaries, etc.

Have their deity curse anyone who harms a member.

[elliott20]

or more simply, you can just give them protection through societal means.

in our society, defrauding a charitable organization is felony.

I don't see why this would be any different here.

I mean, these people are basically just priests who are not even a threat to anyone.

[Gryndle]

Aside from game mechanics, there are some things that you can do.

Make them socially respected, maybe even loved by the common man.

As true pacifists they aren't a major threat to anyone.

Perhaps their wisdom and compassion are admired and respected by the majority of people, both the commoners and the rulers.

That kind of respect gives them a unique power. Because where they may not fight to protect themselves, they may be well-thought of enough, that others would be quick to rise to their defense.

And even the most vile hearted person would need to think twice of striking down such a helpless, but admired, foe, when that act would encourage everyoen else to unite against them. Doesn't mean they wouldn't do it, but they'd have to consider the consequences.

[kpenguin]

Thanks for the suggestions. The church has been in the campaign for some time (it's a rest&heal place for the PCs), but my players have started asking questions about how they exist without any combat abilities. Especially after the priests try to convert the PCs.

[elliott20]

Thanks for the suggestions. The church has been in the campaign for some time (it's a rest&heal place for the PCs), but my players have started asking questions about how they exist without any combat abilities. Especially after the priests try to convert the PCs.
here's an answer:

"ever punched a priest? ever wonder why you never had?"

[Vodun]

You could make the church be very isolated geographicly, so they could be protected by mountains or rivers or desert or something similar.

You could have them be ultra specialists in protection spells, cure spells, and especially any spell that calms people or animals. Charm-like spells too, unless that would be a bit rude. You could have them supported by the majority of people who actually DO fight.

[storybookknight]

Man... I really need to set up a panthenon with the random dieties I see named here frequently. ^_^ Smacky, along with Stabicles, the diety of buffing onesself up and beating things.

*snip*


Don't forget DestructoWar, the god of ... destroying things. (Totally CG. Really.)

I say, give 'em a pacifist clergy and a slightly-less-pacifist-and-also-much tougher paladin order to back them up.

[elliott20]

Don't forget DestructoWar, the god of ... destroying things. (Totally CG. Really.)

I say, give 'em a pacifist clergy and a slightly-less-pacifist-and-also-much tougher paladin order to back them up.
And then there's Saint Lovey, the patron God of Lovely-loveliness!!! Free lovely healings for everybody!!! their priests burn with lovely rectitude!!

excuse me while I go stab myself in the eye now.

[AtomicKitKat]

Calm Emotions, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Sleep, Deep Slumber, etc. All these sorts of spells(maybe even Daze as a special Orison) help to ensure that they can survive. Make sure to point out in graphic detail how they always strip all agressors once knocked out, and leave them naked in the town fountain, or a small mud pit outside the walls.

[Narmoth]

I'm planning on making a god of peace with a pacifist clergy. Any ideas on how to make it so its believable they don't all die within the first few years of their church's foundation?

Give them a lot of healing, paralysing and charm - spells, and they would be able to fight pretty good without killing or harming anyone.
With bonuses to diplomathic abilites this would be a pretty playable class.

[Mewtarthio]

The Apostle of Peace (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031004b)

A couple of spells here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031004c), notably "End to Strife," which deals 20d6 damage (you can make it nonlethal) to anyone who takes a violent action within its area. You could have this effect permanently in place over their holy sites (technically, they aren't causing any damage; it's the deity they serve), or else a similar effect that doesn't deal damage (eg "Anyone who takes a violent action must make a DC 20 Will save or fall unconscious").

[jonnyjmboy]

This sounds like it would be a fun cleric to play, actually. The paladin order to back it up would be really cool too. You could even just use Good-Aligned knights instead of actual paladins to make conspicuously excellent defensive tactics available to the madly buffing and healing clerics among them.

[kamikasei]

Try giving them rules-bending abilities to pacify aggressors, but only when in the area of effect of some Plot Device, which only affects their churches.

[silentknight]

I have a similar religion in my homebrew world. They can only harm non-living things, so they reserve their ire for undead and constructs. Even then, they really are pacifists so most wouldn't act even in self-defense. Anyway, the way I handled it was making paladins the holy defenders of the religion.

[NotCC]

Being pacifist does not mean one won't take action to defend oneself. Make them monistic with super high dex/dodge modifiers or bonus to AC. Or have them emit a constant Sanctuary/Calm Emotions aura. The best way to not take damage is not to be hit, they never have to strike back.

[EvilElitest]

I have a church like this. When i make them, i thought "How can i make sure that they survieve, i mean pacifist can't do much in the real world." Then i thought "Wait, what about Mr. King, or Gandie (how do you spell that?). Look at the peaceful tenents of chritain and buhhdist relgions. Do some research on what they can do and how they might threaten a sociaty.
That being said, there are some other options. It might vary on your diety, but in my world their are three pacifist orders
1. Don't worship any gods but attempt to bring the world to peace none the less. Will only fight with staves and only when being directly attacked. Should they see another being attacked, they can use their own body as a sheild, but no fighting back. They live in a single abby and tend to stay to themselves, but are well regarded by their friends. Much like the mouse from RedWall, but more nice.
2. This group worships the godess of peace. They never attack living creatures. Because of their devotion, quite a few high level clerics live in their ranks. They clerics are experts of non harming conflict, mostly buffs and the like. They never truly fight. Should an enemy attack a member, the member will simple fall to his/her knees and pray until they are ether killed or left alone. They have a small order of paladins who use mercy weapons, but even then only in defence. This group will attack undead, but not with weapons. They will also attack always evil fiends, as they are unable to be redeemed. But nothing else
3. The holy light is one of the most powerful forces in the the world, an unblieveably powerful god. It is so powerful that it spanes worlds, and because of this it can be interpited in many different ways. One such cult is the "Way of the Tranquil Light" and order that never fights. They to have many healers and protectors, but no fighter or killers. They do not surrport paladins but are often protected by those who do worship the light. They are very low key and try to make a simple living, healing and helping everyone they see.
from,
EE

[MaxKaladin]

It also occurrs to me that conquerers and tyrants may see a benefit in promoting a religion that advocates pacifism -- at least among their subject populations. They'd get nasty with the religion if they started promoting pacifism among their troops, but would allow and even encourage them to promote pacifism among the conquered.

[Diggorian]

A truely pacifist order could easily exist within a large culture and would wield perhaps the greatest popular support because it's tenants are so attainable. Other religions advocate valor, strength, or other specific qualities but peace and goodness to others can be embraced by everyone.

I could see any other more martial church freely lending protection to them. Many forget that D&D is polytheistic, so churches usually dont compete or even have rivalries, a god for every aspect of life. Hurting a priest of such an order would be seen as an especially malicious crime, surpassed only by hurting an innocent child or woman.

Crunch wise, I'd recommend tweaking the Cloisterd Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) variant. Lore class ability could be replaced with some sort of Diplomacy booster or a stronger Lay on Hands than Paladins get. Domains could be Protection, Good, Healing, maybe a homebrewed Peace domain. I'd got through their spell list removing anything damaging or offensive and giving generous bonuses to certain aspects (saves, durations, effects) of spells fitting their theme. I also like some of the above ideas.

Our late Ptolus campaign had a pacifist priest that helped alot. She wore platemail and carried a tower shield wielding only a Cure Moderate wand. She effectively gave our only tank DR 2d8+9/- :smallwink:

[Thrawn183]

I really like the ideas of society/people in society coming to the defense of the temple, but how funny would this be if it wasn't desired? You could have a Don Quixote style knight that tries to defend them (or even a very lethal one) against their own wishes. Man, you could have a LOT of fun with this order.

Can I just say that I think this thread is awesome. Yes? Cool, consider it said.

[goat]

You could go with the paladin-defended type thing, but in a much more secretive way.

There could be a group of shadowy figures, probably rogue/assassin/ninja types, who have taken it upon themselves to defend the church against those who would act against it. While a full out attack on the church would probably be defended by the local army, political and social attacks by individuals and small groups would be handled by this "dark guard".

The priests and monks etc would never even have to know about it due to their threats disappearing before they're even aware of them. Higher levels in the church might have some idea that it's going on, but the defenders never reveal themselves and so they can't stop it.

[Lemur]

You could make a specific spell or innate ability for that only their order gets, that's basically a souped up version of Sanctuary. For example, clerics of the order get a bonus to the save DC for sanctuary equal to their cleric level. That way, only high level beings, which are typically rare and spread out, could present a potential threat to them.

Since they probably don't appear threatening, being pacifists, they probably don't have to worry about people attacking them. Then again, being pacifistic doesn't mean they can't be involved in political machinations, so if there are members of the clergy vying for political power, this may not apply.

[Jack Mann]

And again, since they aren't going to be PCs, don't worry too much about how balanced the abilities are. Making sure they do what you want 'em to do is more important.

[Yvian]

First, make sure they have bonus for being pacifist.

Second, those toughed by god should not be messed around lightly. In the real world there is a long history of letting people be. In a fantasy world – who knows? Maybe if you strike down a pacifist you are cursed with bad luck, geas to do a quest, etc. Maybe this is only true if you strike down a particularly pious pacifist – but since pacifism, poverty, and humility go together, it can be hard to tell. Or you could pull a Obi-Wan Kenobi – strike them down and they will come back. Or you could be Patrick Swayze in Ghost, and sing, sing, sing until you get away.

Third, violent societies have often had pacifist around. They are helpful. They heal the sick and provided the shelter for those in need. You may need their servers one day. Besides, what is the harm of letting them run around? They may be hassled, but there should be a strong cultural restraint to harming them. Swiss and Priest have been running around war zones because combatants from both sides recognize their value.

Rarely in society do things break down so far as to have total war. Women, children and idiots [i.e. Pacifist] are normally safe.

[The Gilded Duke]

I don't think Pacifism would be as effective in an environment using the d20 system as it mostly lacks any signifigant system or method of madness checks or degeneration.

Most forms of Pacifism are not being scared of violence but instead beleiving that it does not work for one reason or another. Either the violence will not actually solve the problem, or will cause more problems then it solves. These sorts of ideas don't fit very well into the largly black or white view of most dnd settings or the rapidly scaling power levels of the d20 system.

With Satyagraha Ghandi's version of Pacifism it is very much an active approach. Knowing what an unjust law or system is you willingly violate it and willingly and visibly take the punishment. Your willingness to do so and your endurence of suffering caues those hurting you to doubt their actions. To a greater extent it causes doubt in the supporters of this violence. Most countries and oppresive political groups cannot continue without support of their populace, Satyagraha seeks and works to remove that support.

Unfortunatly within a dnd context there exist people and creatures who are simply evil and never have doubts about their condition or their actions. Because of the level system and magic such as rings of sustinance they are capable of surviving and continuing their actions even without the support of others. Pacifism cannot stop a zombie nor a balor.

Instead of giving innate benefits from their god perhaps instead a series of feats and a pacifist domain. Also, plenty of Bard spells as domain spells would be great.

Pacifism

Favored Weapon: None
Domain Ability: Whenever a cleric with the Pacifism domain has taken damage within the past minute they gain a +10 circumstance modifier on any diplomacy, bluff, or intimidate checks.

Some might argue that intimidate is something that no pacifist would do. I would insist to the contrary that instead intimidation is one of the main acts done by pacifism. Instead of threatening physical force to the target however you are threatening their entire moral view and threatening yourself. Fear of becoming a monster, and fear of harm caused by your own hands can be potent tools used by another to persuade. Even the demoralize action fits with this idea very well. You do not attempt to disarm your foe, you do not attempt to stop their attacks, but you remind them that what they are doing is wrong and that it hurts you greatly. They doubt wether they should attack at all and their view of reality. Thus they become shaken, multiple uses of fear effects can further represent a crisis of faith on the part of the agressor.

It would be debatable weather spells that don't directly command would go against pacifist ideas. I think emotion altering but not dominate spells would be fine, so this is my suggested spell list for the pacifist domain.

1. Charm Person
2. Tongues
3. Crushing Despair
4. Modify Memory (Used very carefully)
5. Break Enchantment
6. Irrisistable Dance
7. Banishment
8. Charm Monster, Mass
9. Mage's Disjunction

Good Feats to take: Daunting Presence (Make someone shaken for 10 minutes LM)

Perhaps a twist on another feat.

Frightful Endurance: Charisma 15, Intimidate 9, Whenever you are successfully damaged in combat, or are effected by a harmful spell that does not kill you all opponents within a 30 foot radius who have less hit dice then you must make a will save vs dc 10+1/2 hit dice + Charisma or become shaken for 1d6+Charisma rounds.

With Daunting Presence, Frightful Endurance and a Demoralize check you can first round Daunting Presence Opponent. Opponent is now Shaken. Opponent hits you and fails endurance save, Opponent is now Fightened. Opponent begins to flee, use intimidate to demoralize them, Opponent is now panicked and drops weapon while continuing to flee. Pick up the weapon and then throw it away, hide it or sunder it.

[Ditto]

I worry that making a pacifist group in D&D is like building a blind monk for the RP value, and expecting to get Blindfight, etc., for free. I don't see why you couldn't make a pacifist adventurer - clerics are first healers, then buffers, then battletanks ((flavorwise, at least. Priests don't smash)).

Healing and buffing is more than enough use for a church, and for a PC group. Tweaked-for-flavor Cloistered cleric with the aforementioned domains are fine choices. The world is an inherently violent place. Commoners don't get fighter feats to make them competitive - they just suck. As they should.

[Mewtarthio]

I worry that making a pacifist group in D&D is like building a blind monk for the RP value, and expecting to get Blindfight, etc., for free. I don't see why you couldn't make a pacifist adventurer - clerics are first healers, then buffers, then battletanks ((flavorwise, at least. Priests don't smash)).

Healing and buffing is more than enough use for a church, and for a PC group. Tweaked-for-flavor Cloistered cleric with the aforementioned domains are fine choices. The world is an inherently violent place. Commoners don't get fighter feats to make them competitive - they just suck. As they should.

He's not making this for PCs, therefore it need not be balanced. If he wants to create a group of people who use nothing but [Acid] spells, he can give them all the [Acid] advantages he wants (increased damage die, higher CL, etc).

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Give them the innate supernatural power "Passive Resistance". They get to win fights without actually fighting!

[Jack Mann]

At least, we assume they're not intended to be PCs (though there's the possibility of conversion...) I'd definitely recommend that approach, though, for the reasons I gave in my second post.

[Ditto]

@Mewthario: Hardly comparable. Acid spells are offense, obviously, and specializing further means that by aciding more, you get more acid power. What does a blind monk get? More blind? Better a being a blind monk? A good blind monk is never going to be as good as a good sighted monk, obviously. A priest who is better at being pacifistic than you gets more skill at being pacifistic. That doesn't even make sense. If you get better at *defending* yourself, that would be a fine way to work it. But there is no mechanical bonus to being a pacifist which you could magnify as your character/NPC develops.

[Edo]

Thanks for the suggestions. The church has been in the campaign for some time (it's a rest&heal place for the PCs), but my players have started asking questions about how they exist without any combat abilities.A few other random thoughts.

Not being able to defend yourself means that you have to actively dissuade people from attacking you. Most of the obvious stuff - befriending tyrants who could use you as a social control mechanism, high Diplomacy, more nonaggression treaties than Switzerland - have already been covered.

As a less obvious strategy for keeping the church alive: battlefield fortification. Can't raise a hand in your own defense? Raise a barricade instead. Dig up 20'-deep-and-wide trenches and use the dirt to build a maze of ramparts on the other side. Set up mazes of berms, triplines, and fraise fields (which aren't dangerous if you move at half-speed, and it's not your fault if people don't.)

This sort of thing should be perfectly kosher according to their deity. If it isn't, the church will say it is anyways. And they will be very, very good at it because they will DIE if they aren't.

[JaronK]

I actually made a pacifist character once... and he was kinda overpowered. Vow of Poverty/Peace Sorcerer, who used Nonleathal Substituted Acid attacks (sleep potion!) to knock out opponents when necessary, but mostly just used really high diplomacy to make folks not want to fight.

It's really fun to join a campaign about stopping the orc invasion, and end up negociating a coexistance treaty.

JaronK

[Nowhere Girl]

Lessee ... give all followers of the deity access to Smooth Talk (Player's Guide to Faerun), and since they won't be trying to fight, spend their feats on skill-boosts to Diplomacy, Bluff and Sense Motive?

Super-Diplomacy characters can, by a strict reading of the rules, very quickly become able to defuse almost any confrontation. Even a 3rd-level human with Smooth Talk, Skill Focus: Diplomacy and Negotiator can have +11 applied to a normal Diplomacy roll or +6 applied to a rushed roll ... before factoring in the Charisma bonus. Already, a high-Charisma character is approaching the ability to turn "hostile" people to merely "unfriendly" with reasonable consistency, and this will quickly improve to "almost every time" and even "indifferent or better instead."

Getting into epic levels, it starts to become basically mind control ... that ignores immunity to mind-affecting powers.

It will annoy the hell out of a party of PCs if one of the PCs defuses almost every encounter, but it shouldn't be an issue for NPCs. :smallwink:

Edit: Oops. I forgot the synergy bonus! So make that +13/+8 at level 3, before Charisma is factored in.

[Renegade Paladin]

Do what they do for Eldath in the Forgotten Realms setting. Have the god of war recognize that war is meaningless without peace following, and smite the hell out of any of his followers that screw with her clergy. :smallamused:

[Nowhere Girl]

Another thing to add on that: having high Diplomacy doesn't just let you defuse immediately hostile situations; it also helps you to make friends! If these pacifists tend to receive lots of training in Diplomacy, people are going to tend to like them. And ... is it really wise to try to pick on the people everyone else likes?

[Mewtarthio]

@Mewthario: Hardly comparable. Acid spells are offense, obviously, and specializing further means that by aciding more, you get more acid power. What does a blind monk get? More blind? Better a being a blind monk? A good blind monk is never going to be as good as a good sighted monk, obviously. A priest who is better at being pacifistic than you gets more skill at being pacifistic. That doesn't even make sense. If you get better at *defending* yourself, that would be a fine way to work it. But there is no mechanical bonus to being a pacifist which you could magnify as your character/NPC develops.

Okay, bad example. Let's say that the DM invents a new world in which a nation kills and eats the hearts of its own firstborn. Unlike all other nations, people from this particular nation have a 1% chance per child heart personally eaten (this only applied to their own children) of giving birth to a Half-Feind child instead of a normal child (note that, being evil, this is considered a good thing). By your logic, this makes no sense: These people should have nothing for their efforts but a taste for human flesh and high skills in speedily extracting and devouring infant hearts. But who's to say that, in a fantasy campaign, this couldn't be possible?

[Ditto]

I'd be totally fine with this half-fiend twist. Those who eat hearts aren't getting any bonuses for doing so, nor do they need any since eating hearts isn't 'costing' them anything in the way pacifism or blindness does, and a small chance of something magic and uber happening is very much consistent with D&D. I don't see what that has to do with this discussion... :smallconfused:

Also, you only have one firstborn, so adding 1 percent-per doesn't change it. :smallsmile: Speed-eating skills would be fluff, just like Profession: Gambler or Craft: Baked goods. Bonuses to such things aren't remarkable changes.

[EvilElitest]

Equivlant exchange is not absolute
Dante already covered this

Points for those who get that reference
from,
EE

[Sardia]

Powerful friends and lots of charisma.

[ajkkjjk52]

Maybe homebrew an improved version of sanctuary or two, so that they can make people just not want to attack them.

Or just make there be a lot of them, so the 20 or so who get killed by bandits every day are just a drop in the bucket.

[Mewtarthio]

I'd be totally fine with this half-fiend twist. Those who eat hearts aren't getting any bonuses for doing so, nor do they need any since eating hearts isn't 'costing' them anything in the way pacifism or blindness does, and a small chance of something magic and uber happening is very much consistent with D&D. I don't see what that has to do with this discussion... :smallconfused:

My point is that, in real life, you get absolutely no benefit from eating the heart of your firstborn save for a hot meal. However, in a fantasy world with magic and gods and demons, you could have the opportunity to sire a being with a great connection to the forces of darkness. How is it so unbelievable to think that a group of pacifists, who actively worship the God of Pacifism, can't get special protection from violence (note that the usual MAD excuse for non-interference by deities is easily explained away in this case: The God of Pacifism does not have his followers actively interfere with those of other deities, and his petitioners likely mantain a similarly pacifistic role in the Outer Planes, so he could be the "Switzerland" of the deities)?


Also, you only have one firstborn, so adding 1 percent-per doesn't change it. :smallsmile: Speed-eating skills would be fluff, just like Profession: Gambler or Craft: Baked goods. Bonuses to such things aren't remarkable changes.

Only eating the firstborn is required. Particularly hungry parents may devour other children's hearts in hopes of giving birth to a Half-Fiend.
This clause is a rather poorly-worded method of ensuring that you don't get a powerful child if you somehow worm your way out of eating the first one.
Some people have been known to sleep with multiple partners and bear multiple children; thus, they sire multiple "firstborns" and can greatly increase their chances of siring a Half-Fiend.
I messed up.Pick whichever excuse you like best. :smallsmile:

[elliott20]

Equivlant exchange is not absolute
Dante already covered this

Points for those who get that reference
from,
EE
full metal alchemist?

[Soniku]

While I'm not one who's very into the pacifism thing, would they be against one of those "backlash" style spells? As in the old fire shields from 2nd edition or the cliche Japaneses RPG reflect spells?

It would be quite fitting to allow the enemy to kill themselves with their own attacks, and technically the priest isn't doing anything, as soon as the bad guy stops hacking at him the spell will stop returning his attacks back in his face.

[Person_Man]

Many religions are (or at least start out as, or profess to be) pacifist faiths. I'll avoid discussing real world religion because its against board rules. But take a look at Roman or Indian history.

For a pacifist faith to exist, they simply allow themselves to be persecuted while converting the masses. The more that powers that be use violence against them, the more the faith appears righteous and just, and other people that the powers persecute will flock to their ideals. Eventually if the faith can convert enough people, the government will pass laws to protect it. Even in the most violent and polytheistic society, a pacifist religion can flourish.

[Jack Mann]

That's true. Martyrs sell.

[Laesin]

In system how are any of the followers of this religion above 1st level?
D&D rewards violence, its been that way since its roots.

This is not a criticism just a query.

[Jack Mann]

D&D rewards violence for PCs. NPCs don't need experience to level. They're whatever level the DM decides they are.

[Swordguy]

Give everyone associated with that religion a Contingent Scorching Ray spell that goes off on the member of the religion upon their death. Make sure the CL is really, really high. So, kill the priest, high-CL flamy spell is cast upon the priest's head.

Now, give all the followers of the religion Helms of Brilliance.

See who's dumb enough to kill one of them then.

[Norsesmithy]

That would just make everyone stand farther back as they sniped the Orphanage headmaster.

LOL extra crispy orphans.

[Mewtarthio]

EXPLODING PACIFISTS!

...Sorry. Yeah, not exactly the most peaceful of things.

[The_Werebear]

EXPLODING PACIFISTS!

...Sorry. Yeah, not exactly the most peaceful of things.

Well...I can see the same quote in a different context..

"The Martyr's death inflamed the masses"

[TheThan]

Aside from game mechanics, there are some things that you can do.

Make them socially respected, maybe even loved by the common man.

As true pacifists they aren't a major threat to anyone.

Perhaps their wisdom and compassion are admired and respected by the majority of people, both the commoners and the rulers.

That kind of respect gives them a unique power. Because where they may not fight to protect themselves, they may be well-thought of enough, that others would be quick to rise to their defense.

And even the most vile hearted person would need to think twice of striking down such a helpless, but admired, foe, when that act would encourage everyoen else to unite against them. Doesn't mean they wouldn't do it, but they'd have to consider the consequences.

I like this answer the best. Make it so attacking one is going to do terrible things to their reputations. Prices rise, inns/taverns/churches/etc refuse services. Parents start pulling their children away when you approach (maybe even have the pcs overhear a parent telling their children to stay away from the bad men that come to town occasionally), rumors begin being spread about how bad the pcs are. People become rude etc.


Either that or give them Paladin bodyguards. Yeah I like that, paladin bodyguards.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Perhaps give the pacifistic cleregy of the pacifistic diety something like a permanent Sanctuary effect, where people have to make a will save just to attack the guy.

Also, if the pacifist could be convinced to heal the bandit raiders who slaughtered his group and captured the healer, they could see him as a valuable influence, and might lead to all cleregy of the diety being attacked last, and taken captive rather than killed, for being a healing battery back at camp. At least, until the next band of adventurers comes through to go save the cleric and bring him back to civilization...

[Aramil Liadon]

Their shrines exude an aura of non-violence? St. Cuthbert gets mad and lightning-y when you attack the helpless pacifists? They have a divine ability that lets them come back to life?

No, Gryndle is the best on this topic so far.

Also, they seem a valuable asset, as long as they stay neutral. Why kill people who willingly heal you for free?

[Wehrkind]

The problem with Gryndle's post, and pacifism in general, is that while those work well for those who adhere to the laws and do things in the open, it doesn't work for the thug in the alley who thinks "Easy 10 gold." Aggression is very rarely based on actual threat, but possibility of gain, and in the case of criminals such gain is pretty thin sometimes.
So the problem is not "How do they survive society as a whole" since as stated most people suck at combat, and governments exist largely to protect them by way of laws and force. Particularly if they are useful. The problem becomes "How do they survive those who ignore the law?" Criminals, and monsters, by definition do not follow the laws of the land, and further fully expect no one will find out about their act (if they did, they would be caught and punished.) So reputation alone does not protect the individual members of the order.

I think the best options listed were Sanctuary (perm or just frequent), Ottiluke's Sphere (perhaps self only X times per day as a free action). Also, Protection from Normal/Magical weapons. These might all make good domain powers given as level increases to make the priest more and more protected from violence as their stature and faith improve.

Alternately, the God(dess) is the younger sibling of Stabicles (God of Buffing Up and Whacking Things) who is very protective of his siblings followers (they are handy since all his follows blow their healing potention on pwnage.) Those attacking a disciple of Nerfina (Goddess of Softness) become marked in a very visible and magically trackable way, and a follower of Stabicles (God of Buffing Up and Whacking Things) is obligated to perform said buffing and whacking whenever they are encountered, and will track them down if there is rumor of them. Tracking down local thugs and highway men so marked is how the disciples of Stabicles (God of Buffing Up and Whacking Things) earn their stripes as adepts.

[Diggorian]

The problem with Gryndle's post, and pacifism in general, is that while those work well for those who adhere to the laws and do things in the open, it doesn't work for the thug in the alley who thinks "Easy 10 gold." Aggression is very rarely based on actual threat, but possibility of gain, and in the case of criminals such gain is pretty thin sometimes. ...

The problem becomes "How do they survive those who ignore the law?" Criminals, and monsters, by definition do not follow the laws of the land, and further fully expect no one will find out about their act (if they did, they would be caught and punished.) So reputation alone does not protect the individual members of the order.

I dont think Gryndle was talking about reputation as a the only defense of a pacifism. He was specifically speaking outside of crunch regarding fluff/social aspects that shield them. Aspects that I've agreed with (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2246637&postcount=31).

There are more ways to defend one's self from attack than bashing with a mace you must realize. A profit-motivated criminal could receive a few words of wisdom to dissuade (Diplomacy check) them and failing that the priest would just hand over the gold he has to such a desperate soul.

Even if an attacker cant be reasoned with, pacifists have the tried and true tactic of Total Defense + fleeing while screaming for help. Not heroic, but very practical.