How do wizards solo epic monsters? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

SiuiS

2014-11-14, 10:01 PM

You should be able to, at that point:

Make ice assassin tarrasque mobs
Imprison The tarrasque in a demiplane and have it astral project into the material just in case
Divine the nature of future epic encounters
Plant false prophecies backward into time so that a motley crew of adventures just so happens to be there to handle the grunt work of your encounters
Build an entire network of adventurers to accumulate resources necessary to operate in a McGuffin level

As you adventure, you should encounter BBEGs who do stuff like figure out how to change the orbit of the inner planes to bring fire into high alignment and scorch the earth in an effort to change the political dynamics between the effeeti and the lords of water. As an epic adventurer, you should be able to find these weird quirks of the game world and do them.

If any plan as an epic character doesn't sound like the plot of a villain, you've missed the mark. If you aren't fight if aboleths by changing the words written into the Tablet of Ages to make reality poisonous to them, what are you doing?

RoboEmperor

2014-11-14, 10:12 PM

Ice assassins require XP, and the fluff kind of makes it hard to use. I'd like to know a lot of options in case certain things aren't allowed, like WISH LOOPS.

The adventurers aren't technically solo. They aren't dominated, summoned, created, or enslaved creatures. They are actual characters that will soak up the XP and such, but thanks for informing me of that stuff.

You mentioned a lot of end of the world stuff, but I was wondering in terms of more direct ways to kill the epic monsters. I mean arguably you can just pull in a massive asteroid from outerspace and upon impact it will annihilate all life on the world :P

icefractal

2014-11-14, 10:16 PM

The Tarrasque is kind of a cheap shot, because it has so many weaknesses. But most of the ELH stuff (anything without full casting of its own) is within the reach of a moderate-to-highly optimized Wizard, without using any NI stuff.

However, there are some changes from facing non-Epic stuff - the "God" spells won't work. The creatures have saves higher than you can probably raise your DCs, and they're more likely to have broad-spectrum immunities which shut down a lot of BFC stuff. Normal summoning is pretty pointless. Even Gate only works if you use it intelligently. That said, there are several tactics I've seen used:

1) Mailman-style Blasting. Just throw a ****load of force or untyped damage at it. For all their immunities, not many things can resist point-blank annihilation.

2) Minions. Mind control is one way. Ice Assassin is another (even without a way to cheat the cost, its still worth it with the right creature). You can go for quantity or quality. Stick them on a timeless or slow-time demiplane so that you can buff the hell out of them and it won't expire. Gate when you need them.

3) Self Buffing. Like #3, except instead of buffing a minion you buff yourself. Only reason I can think of for this is that its easier to break the action economy for yourself than for someone else.

4) Strip away immunities and SR, then throw SoDs at it. Since the saves are usually very high, you'll need to throw a lot, either via Mailman tactics or by bringing a big crowd of minions to spam them.

5) Attrition. Make your own defenses impenetrable, then follow it around and nibble it to death with unresistable stuff.

Venger

2014-11-14, 10:19 PM

Ice assassins require XP, and the fluff kind of makes it hard to use. I'd like to know a lot of options in case certain things aren't allowed, like WISH LOOPS.

just cast it as a SLA. there are plenty of ways to go about it.

RoboEmperor

2014-11-14, 10:19 PM

5) Attrition. Make your own defenses impenetrable, then follow it around and nibble it to death with unresistable stuff.

This doesnt work because almost every epic monster has super high regeneration :P

So I guess mailman + meatshields is the only way >.<
With metamagic reducers, metamagic rods, and residual magic feat, orb of fire with energy substitution, empower spell, maximize spell, twin spell, and repeat spell can deal 540 damage a turn so that's pretty good.
Or dominated/created super powerful monsters.
Several Iron colossi should be able to kill a lot of epic monsters, but you need to be high-epic to make them

I think the only fluff-friendly way to use ice assassin is to somehow get a piece of the epic monster and make an ice assassin of that epic monster.

SiuiS

2014-11-14, 10:21 PM

Epic isn't just gameplay above 20th level. Epic is about the scope of the game. You aren't fighting dragons, you're fighting the king of all red dragons – and such an important figure has a plan, one worthy of his scope as king of all red dragons.

If you just want to know how to kill epic monsters, that can be done pre-epic. Metamagic. Not even the really cheesy stuff. Just lob enough dakka at something and it will die. Sorcerers get to bestow half of their energies as force, wizards can pinpoint weaknesses and pile on that specific damage, clerics are living hurricanes, Druids are sharknados. Split twinned repeated maximized scorching ray with energy admixture does the trick. Sonics do the trick. Be a force missile Mage and take arcane fusion and greater arcane fusion; super chain sanctum spells to fire billions of magic missiles from a single 8th level spell slot. Or be a dragonfire inspiration bard who also brings out inspiration points and arcane strike to unload 10d6+50d4+weapon onto a target.

Damage is easy. Getting around defenses and ablatives and hp with elegance or primacy requires thinking of the existence of the threat as the encounter, not just the monster itself. You said other adventurers will soak up the XP? They won't have any of the XP from the social and religious maneuvering requires to convince gods and prophets that your false prophecy is real, or from any of the obstacles to setting up your opponent's demise before the fight begins. It's all in presentation.

An example: I'm about level 60, and I'm gunning for vecna. I can't just show up and hit him; that won't do anything. I have to attack the metaphysical underpinnings of his godhood and existence. I have to remove the universe's designation of "god" and "immortal" first. And the maneuvering to do that is what epic is about, more than just the high numbers and the crazy monsters.

RoboEmperor

2014-11-14, 10:26 PM

Right, so you're suggesting meatshield + mailman as well right? XD

edit: I read your example and yeah... I think I get the picture of what epic means to you. World changing fluff stuff :).

eggynack

2014-11-14, 10:28 PM

I don't even really understand the question. You use spells. You don't need crazy tarrasque plans, partially because spells are already great, and partially because the tarrasque is not great. Seriously, it dies against an allip, and fails to interact with anything with flight. If you're facing epic monsters, then use epic spells. Epic spells are better than all the things. Hell, normal spells are better than most things. What is this monster that you need a crazy plan for?

Is the problem this xixecal fellow? You have the ability to be astrally projected from a personal demiplane, followed around by an army of ice assassins (accessed through zodar wishes), with shapechange granted spontaneous access to most things in existence. And that's without epic magic. This creature doesn't even have a serious way of threatening you. Coming up with a plan to kill it eventually is trivial with anything with 9th's.

Edit: Actually, let's just look at the particular creature. He's not immune to a bunch of stuff. He has a low will save. I guess you can cast imprisonment on him. Use action shenanigans and some buffs to make it happen. Fight complete.

RoboEmperor

2014-11-14, 10:34 PM

Xixecal is my go-to epic monster punching bag.
I am actually debating whether to play a wizard or a sorcerer in my next game.

I like sorcerer because:
1. I really only use a few spells, so I like having a character being able to only cast a few spells
2. Spontaneous Magic
3. Best mailman ever (wizard can do this too, but much less effective)
4. Doesn't require spellbook

I like generalist wizard because
1. Craft items and golems! (Sorcerer can't because of required spells)
2. Can "level" spells (summon monster I -> SMII -> SMIII) etc. (Sorcerer has really hard time doing this)
3. Can do demiplane god stuff (though honestly I don't really care for it :P)
4. Can research every spell in the game, just takes a couple weeks and gold

I want my PC to be able to solo adventure against epic monsters, so being relatively new to epic stuff, I'm asking what are some ways to kill epic stuff so I can judge whether I should be a wizard or a sorcerer.

I like golems but if I go sorcerer I can't use them, but I can afford a dominate monster on him so I can just specialize in dominating tarrasques end-game since golems are worthless at that point, but then sorcerers lack the divination spells to locate the tarrasque. Also i do enjoy colossi and the Iron colossi seems to be able to hold its own against epic monsters, and wizards can mailman too. But this stuff is off-topic and only I can decide this stuff because the PC has to be one I enjoy to play.

Is the problem this xixecal fellow? You have the ability to be astrally projected from a personal demiplane, followed around by an army of ice assassins (accessed through zodar wishes), with shapechange granted spontaneous access to most things in existence. And that's without epic magic. This creature doesn't even have a serious way of threatening you. Coming up with a plan to kill it eventually is trivial with anything with 9th's.

I'm trying to avoid wish loops via planar binding, simulacrum, gate after gate after gate, zodar, etc. Honestly, I'm also trying to avoid ice assassin XD. But I see that's how you kill your epic monsters. Mass wishes for mass ice assassins, but even this is dangerous because Wish can only replicate up to 8th level spells. Ice assassins are 9th level so DM can start doing partial completion stuff or backfire stuff.

Rubik

2014-11-14, 11:03 PM

If you want constructs (even epic golems), just obtain a rod of construct control, from the A&EG. So long as their creators aren't around, you basically get a pet rock T-1000 construct for virtually free.

RoboEmperor

2014-11-14, 11:10 PM

eggynack

2014-11-14, 11:29 PM

I'm trying to avoid wish loops via planar binding, simulacrum, gate after gate after gate, zodar, etc. Honestly, I'm also trying to avoid ice assassin XD. But I see that's how you kill your epic monsters. Mass wishes for mass ice assassins, but even this is dangerous because Wish can only replicate up to 8th level spells. Ice assassins are 9th level so DM can start doing partial completion stuff or backfire stuff.
The point is just whatever. My final plan didn't even really rely on that stuff. It didn't even really rely on anything. This fight is trivial, and it's trivial by level 17. You're past that, presumably. You're beyond the point where it's trivial. And, no, the DM can't have it backfire. What you do is wish up a scroll of ice assassin, which is a perfectly safe wish, and then you use that. Your problem is that you're too focused on damage. You can get rid of this enemy without even touching its HP.

Edit: Actually, y'know what, let's do this with damage. This creature's immunity to form changing doesn't seem like it stops trait removal, so just cast that on it, removing regeneration, and then plink away at it. Maintaining good distance shouldn't be too challenging, and the only real threat at range is those dragons, which aren't much threat at all. Really, the question isn't how a wizard can kill this fellow. It's how a wizard cannot kill this fellow.

RoboEmperor

2014-11-14, 11:36 PM

The point is just whatever. My final plan didn't even really rely on that stuff. It didn't even really rely on anything. This fight is trivial, and it's trivial by level 17. You're past that, presumably. You're beyond the point where it's trivial. And, no, the DM can't have it backfire. What you do is wish up a scroll of ice assassin, which is a perfectly safe wish, and then you use that. Your problem is that you're too focused on damage. You can get rid of this enemy without even touching its HP.

Scrolls of ice assassin would still require you to somehow get the pieces of hair of something :P

Xixecal has a will save of 39, how would a level 17 wizard be able to "kill" him with imprisonment?

Icefractal said epic level monsters' saves are so ridiculous you can't use save or dies or battlefield control spells. I don't see how I could beat that 39 will save specially since it's immune to enervation. Please enlighten :D

eggynack

2014-11-14, 11:45 PM

Scrolls of ice assassin would still require you to somehow get the pieces of hair of something :P
You wish for the ice assassin scroll set to the particular creature. You don't need to provide extra material components when using scrolls.

Xixecal has a will save of 39, how would a level 17 wizard be able to "kill" him with imprisonment?
I dunno. Let's say PAO into some high intelligence creature. I'm not sure what the most intelligent monster is, but one probably exists. . Alternatively, it's not like you're starved for attempts, backed up by your choice of astral projection or teleporting combined with action economy screwage. 'Port in, make an attempt, 'port out, and iterate until the thing rolls a natural one.

SiuiS

2014-11-14, 11:56 PM

Right, so you're suggesting meatshield + mailman as well right? XD

No, I'm saying focusing on meat shield + mailman is short sighted and if you we any to do that you can but there are better options.

If the situation is "there is an epic monster that is hostile and 30 feet away, roll initiative" yes, damage is all you've got. But that's not how epic encounters go. If I will be fighting a xixecal, I will know about it at least a week in advance and can send myself a message back in time a month or two to rearrange events so that if I do fight I have the edge and also so I don't have to fight.

You don't kill an aboleth in epic levels by hitting it with damage. You kill it by changing the physics of the material plane and the genome of the Prime Aboleth Supernal symbol so that oxygen is lethal to aboleths and they all die retroactively.

I want my PC to be able to solo adventure against epic monsters, so being relatively new to epic stuff, I'm asking what are some ways to kill epic stuff so I can judge whether I should be a wizard or a sorcerer.

If you're going to locate an epic monster and fight it solo, why fixate on damage?

I would learn about it, buff myself so we were evenly matched, and engage it in witty banter while wrestling it. Because it's about the challenge not the winning.

Scrolls of ice assassin would still require you to somehow get the pieces of hair of something :P

Nope. That was required to make the scroll. Since the scroll exists, you've already got the component.

Alternately, get around the component somehow.

RoboEmperor

2014-11-15, 12:01 AM

I dunno. Let's say PAO into some high intelligence creature. I'm not sure what the most intelligent monster is, but one probably exists. . Alternatively, it's not like you're starved for attempts, backed up by your choice of astral projection or teleporting combined with action economy screwage. 'Port in, make an attempt, 'port out, and iterate until the thing rolls a natural one.

Ok so you're suggesting 20 castings of any save or die it's not immune to.

eggynack

2014-11-15, 12:04 AM

Ok so you're suggesting 20 castings of any save or die it's not immune to.
Sure, whatever. This is a creature without any serious reality warping abilities, and which can't even fly. It's not exactly the hardest fight.

RoboEmperor

2014-11-15, 12:07 AM

If the situation is "there is an epic monster that is hostile and 30 feet away, roll initiative" yes, damage is all you've got. But that's not how epic encounters go. If I will be fighting a xixecal, I will know about it at least a week in advance and can send myself a message back in time a month or two to rearrange events so that if I do fight I have the edge and also so I don't have to fight.

...

You don't kill an aboleth in epic levels by hitting it with damage. You kill it by changing the physics of the material plane and the genome of the Prime Aboleth Supernal symbol so that oxygen is lethal to aboleths and they all die retroactively.

...

I would learn about it, buff myself so we were evenly matched, and engage it in witty banter while wrestling it. Because it's about the challenge not the winning.

How do you send messages back in time? o_O
How do you change the physics of the material plane? o_O
How would you buff yourself to be able to wrestle with a xixecal? o_O

Please show your work :D I'm new to this stuff.

Kazyan

2014-11-15, 12:41 AM

How do you send messages back in time? o_O
How do you change the physics of the material plane? o_O
How would you buff yourself to be able to wrestle with a xixecal? o_O

Please show your work :D I'm new to this stuff.

Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?

RoboEmperor

2014-11-15, 12:43 AM

Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?

I graduated university and have a very solid understanding of physics, general relativity, etc. LETS GO DOWN THAT RABBIT HOLE! Or point me to a website or something that has that information so we don't flood this thread :P

Though all this stuff might not be useable in my DM's next campaign, which is why I'm looking at souped up orb of fires because it's hard to deny me of that method of killing epic creatures XD.

eggynack

2014-11-15, 12:49 AM

Though all this stuff might not be useable in my DM's next campaign, which is why I'm looking at souped up orb of fires because it's hard to deny me of that method of killing epic creatures XD.
Eh, souped up orbs are a bit less menacing in high level high optimization games. The generally few ways to stop them start popping up more often, especially in epic levels.

Red Fel

2014-11-15, 12:58 AM

I graduated university and have a very solid understanding of physics, general relativity, etc. LETS GO DOWN THAT RABBIT HOLE! Or point me to a website or something that has that information so we don't flood this thread :P

Though all this stuff might not be useable in my DM's next campaign, which is why I'm looking at souped up orb of fires because it's hard to deny me of that method of killing epic creatures XD.

You really want to go down that rabbit hole? Let's cover a few things, first.

Step away from the orbs. You're right. At high levels, and moreso in epic levels, your dakka isn't the source of your power. Blasting is a last resort because you're a pre-epic caster fighting an epic creature and you're not up to creative solutions. When that happens, there's a good chance that Kenshiro said it best: "You're already dead." Save or die? No. Stop that. Epic creatures have epic saves. That won't help you. What you want is your no-save material. While we're at it, SR: No is nice, too. Don't have those spells memorized? Better get on that. Fair fight? Are you mental? Wizards don't randomly stumble into an encounter and win it. Wizards stumble into an encounter, flee via any of a number of contingency (the spell or the plan) spells, then prepare themselves in a private time-slowed demiplane to take precise vengeance. Or, they cast a divination or two at the beginning of the day to see precisely what they'll be encountering, and then prepare accordingly. Under no circumstances do you fight things on their terms. You plan the arena, you prepare the spells, you may even go so far as to force their every move. Epic challenges, generally, come in two flavors: Like normal, but really big, and beyond mortal ken. The former can be handled with combat tactics. The latter can be handled with a philosophy degree.
Ultimately, the problem is that you're asking for a checklist, and that's not how this particular game is played. A Wizard is dangerous because he is prepared for this encounter. If he isn't prepared for this encounter, he spends a few relative moments inside of a private time-slowed demiplane, and returns with a new arsenal of spells prepared specifically for this encounter.

It's a moving target; each encounter requires a specific combination. Fighting a Hechatonchieres is very different from fighting the Atropal, for example. And fighting Asmodeus is an entirely different kind of fighting, altogether. You're not going to get a simple list of "Okay, here's what you have to do."

For non-epic encounters, once you pass a certain threshold, you can rely on a few staples. One or two key dakka spells, some potent BFCs, an OSB or two, and you can handle a lot that comes after you. Epic encounters are different. They require a personal touch. They represent cosmic-level threats, and you don't get into one of those unless you've prepared - not just for an encounter generally, not just for an epic encounter generally, but for that specific epic encounter.

Crake

2014-11-15, 01:06 AM

RoboEmperor

2014-11-15, 01:08 AM

Alright, since you mentioned it, how would a wizard kill an Atropal and a Hecatoncheries? Lets say you were taking a happy little walk when suddenly an Atropal/Hecatoncheries appear out of nowhere and tries to splatter your a*s all over the pavement? It's massive initiative means it goes first but before it moves in and slaughters you, your contingency kicks in and you teleport inside your house and you're saved. You then either immediately gate into your time-slowed demiplane or you rest up, prepare a gate, and then gate into your time slowed plane.

Now what?

My sorcerer, although doesn't have contingency, if he somehow was able to survive I would go for the tarrasque strategy, cause it's the only one I know :(
Meat shield + blast!

So how would a wizard handle this?

And please don't say wish loops and ice assassin D:

edit: After more reading, tarrasque mailman fails against both since they both fly and can target me, and although atropal can't kill tarrasque, hecatoncheries can in 1 round, but perhaps 100 cannon fodder would last me 3 turns I need to kill him with empowered maximized repeated twinned orbs of fire.

Kazyan

2014-11-15, 01:11 AM

This has to be my new favourite quote on this forum, mind if i sig it?

Ooh, I'm being sigged! Go ahead.

icefractal

2014-11-15, 01:12 AM

Is the problem this xixecal fellow? You have the ability to be astrally projected from a personal demiplane, followed around by an army of ice assassins (accessed through zodar wishes), with shapechange granted spontaneous access to most things in existence. And that's without epic magic. This creature doesn't even have a serious way of threatening you. Coming up with a plan to kill it eventually is trivial with anything with 9th's.At the point you start using NI loops, the fact that you're a Wizard doesn't really matter any more, nor does the nature of the foe. The only differentiating factor is "can this enemy also do NI loops?" If not, you auto-win. If so, you enter an indeterminate state of trying to resolve two arbitrarily powerful forces fighting each-other. Not a whole lot of game left, either way.

NI loops - just say no. :smallwink:

Sam K

2014-11-15, 01:14 AM

I wanna be the creator D:<
But this is getting off-topic XD

Well, the way wizards solo epic monsters is by not having a bunch of "I need to do it this particular way or it wont count" rules. You don't break reality by staying within the bounds of reality.

If it helps, think of Gandalf. He didn't spend his entire WBL on a +5 sword of Sauron slaying. He was all "Yo, shortstuff, Biff, Nancy, how 'bouts you motha****as go throw this bling in da' furnace, dawgs!"

eggynack

2014-11-15, 01:17 AM

At the point you start using NI loops, the fact that you're a Wizard doesn't really matter any more, nor does the nature of the foe. The only differentiating factor is "can this enemy also do NI loops?" If not, you auto-win. If so, you enter an indeterminate state of trying to resolve two arbitrarily powerful forces fighting each-other. Not a whole lot of game left, either way.

NI loops - just say no. :smallwink:
I suppose. Just seems to me that it's a bit of a sliding scale. There are obvious and trivial ways to accomplish this at most levels of game breakitude, so the only question is how many of those methods you're artificially restricting.

RoboEmperor

2014-11-15, 01:18 AM

Well, the way wizards solo epic monsters is by not having a bunch of "I need to do it this particular way or it wont count" rules. You don't break reality by staying within the bounds of reality.

If it helps, think of Gandalf. He didn't spend his entire WBL on a +5 sword of Sauron slaying. He was all "Yo, shortstuff, Biff, Nancy, how 'bouts you motha****as go throw this bling in da' furnace, dawgs!"

I'm just saying I want to be a wizard who creates golems, like my playstyle for this particular wizard would revolve around golems, but despite how unoptimized this is, I wanna still be able to solo epics :P

But I know unoptimized wizards are hard to work with, so I'm asking for examples or methods YOU would use with YOUR wizard so I can perhaps change my wizard to follow yours more to solo epic monsters.

Red Fel and SiuiS seems to be the big shots here so please! Show me an example of your epicness so I may study and analyze it!

eggynack

2014-11-15, 01:20 AM

I'm just saying I want to be a wizard who creates golems, like my playstyle for this particular wizard would revolve around golems, but despite how unoptimized this is, I wanna still be able to solo epics :P
You should seek out tippy stuff. Create an army of shadesteel golems with rudimentary intelligence, factotum levels, and a mind link to all of the other golems in your mighty army.

RoboEmperor

2014-11-15, 01:26 AM

You should seek out tippy stuff. Create an army of shadesteel golems with rudimentary intelligence, factotum levels, and a mind link to all of the other golems in your mighty army.

Thanks for pointing me to that.

Red Fel

2014-11-15, 01:47 AM

Believe it or not, I (1) don't play casters, and (2) don't play at epic levels. (I just happen to be a very quick study.) This scenario - the fact that a highly-optimized Tier 1 caster can attempt to solo any target, let alone an epic one, with a measure of success - is why.

Playing a caster requires a truly intensive system knowledge. Not just knowing good spells from bad, and not just knowing how spells work; it's knowing what spells work when, and in what situations, and with what other spells. It's being able to prepare on the fly; understanding a situation, flitting off to safety, and returning shortly thereafter with what you need already lined up. And a lot of that is stuff that a thread like this, or even an extremely in-depth guide, can't give you in full; that level of system mastery requires a lot of experience.

Playing against epic level threats requires a competent caster. A Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires) is a perfect example: it doesn't matter how good you are, if you're not a caster, he's killing you before you get within range to take a single shot. If you are a caster, you obviously can't get within melee range. You also can't hide from it, and fire and ice damage will barely slow it down. Any damage less than 50 won't even make a dent. And it can fly, so outmaneuvering it isn't probable. You have to think tactically, change plans on the fly, and have something laid out for every trick it can pull. Again, system mastery.

If you want to practice the art of TO with Wizards, I second the suggestion for studying Tippy. There's a reason that TO stands for both "Theoretical Optimization" and "Tippy-level Optimization". The two are virtually identical (save that the latter is generally more powerful than the former).

RoboEmperor

2014-11-15, 02:04 AM

I'm not an optimizer. I don't play dragonblooded kobold sorcerers, or incantatrix. The most optimized character I play is a sorcerer with arcane thesis: orb of fire, residual magic, and a lot of metamagic.

And the wizard I'm planning, gonna be an animate dead, create greater undead, golem, and planar binding focused noncombatant who buffs his creations while invisible and runs away if they all die. This ain't nowhere near optimized XD

Also part of the fun is figuring stuff out for yourself, which is why I avoid tippy stuff. Otherwise I'll just go pun-pun. Planar bind an efreeti and there ya go, a polymorph to a kobold, gate in a sarrukh, grant manipulate form that isn't restricted to scaled ones and can target yourself, and give yourself a spell-like ability that creates 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 iron colossi every round for the next 999 years.

I'm just wondering how "normal" people take out epic monsters like hecatoncheries solo. All I see is spam metamagic'd orb of fire with a thousand cannon fodder because of his crazy high spell resistance.

I am also aware of 0 DC epic spells that are cast with 100 clones, but that's pun-pun level cheese, just like the ice assassin wish loops. I wish for a scroll of ice assassin of Bane! Bane ice assassin grant me spell-like ability at-will wish! I create 10 more bane ice assassins! Demigod squirrel stuff and now I ascend to godhood! Ram the moon right onto a Hecatoncheries' face! I win!

SiuiS

2014-11-15, 02:15 AM

How do you send messages back in time? o_O
How do you change the physics of the material plane? o_O
How would you buff yourself to be able to wrestle with a xixecal? o_O

Please show your work :D I'm new to this stuff.

You're missing the point.

"Beat an epic monster" isn't the game. It's the end of a Rube Goldberg machine. The fun isn't in beating the monster, it's in setting up the marble that moves the level that lights the match that fills the balloon that startles the mouse that knocks over the domino that sends the bowling ball rolling that triggers the prosthetic arm that holds the wand that casts the spell that creates the Aleax that kills the monster.

I'm saying, basically, enjoy the journey. That's where the fun is. You pull off epic stuff like physics altering shenanigans by working with the DM and asking questions. Do you know how the movement of the stars affects magic? How about the movement of the planes? Do you know if the planes even move? Do you know if they can be made to move? What happens when the stars and planes align? If Mars and Elemental plane of Fire align on a solstice, what happens? How do you use that?

If you ask your DM questions like "is there a cosmic event that is the only time and place someone can perform a ritual that allows a change in divine status, either elevating or demoting one deity?", a good DM will ask "how do you find out?", and that's the game. That's the fun. The discovery. The wonder. Stepping back into mundane hit points-and-spell-slots D&D and saying "you know, if we wait three days for the aquarian verge to collapse, we can bypass the astral and slingshot off it's time trait to beat the villain to the heart of Limbo by about two days ago."

Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?

This isn't necessarily true. While I enjoy the depth and grain of Sepulchrave II's Tales of Wyre style magic, I also enjoy Sagiro's more old school Adventures of Abernathy's Company play. But even in Sagiro's games where the epic PCs were shooting chain lightning and flame strike around, there was the dramatic and charged ritual in the obsidian forge to break Mokad's power and free Praska's soul. And that sort of endearing, not of the rules exactly thing has away appealed to me.

Alright, since you mentioned it, how would a wizard kill an Atropal and a Hecatoncheries?

My sorcerer buddy used shapechange into a hecatoncheires and boxed it into submission.

My wizard used dimension travel to grab an AD&D sword of sharpness and started lopping off arms.

Our necromancer would use the spell to combine all it's arms into a single pair forcibly and then damage it's strength enough to make it not matter.

Our cleric would pray and run, but he could probably hurt it if he put his mind to it.

edit: After more reading, tarrasque mailman fails against both since they both fly and can target me, and although atropal can't kill tarrasque, hecatoncheries can in 1 round, but perhaps 100 cannon fodder would last me 3 turns I need to kill him with empowered maximized repeated twinned orbs of fire.

Atropal? Two Gates. One to bring in the biggest, baddest grappler you know. The other to be a pit to the positive energy plane. Grappler grabs it, you open portal, grappler drags it into the portal.

If it helps, think of Gandalf. He didn't spend his entire WBL on a +5 sword of Sauron slaying. He was all "Yo, shortstuff, Biff, Nancy, how 'bouts you motha****as go throw this bling in da' furnace, dawgs!"

Exactly. He changed the context of the situation. What would have been a stand up fight he would surely lose (as would any in middle earth!), became instead a game of stallig that fight while you undo the strength of your opponent.

Playing a caster requires a truly intensive system knowledge.

Or just a good DM and a sense of wonder.

One of the more interesting ideas from e6 that I don't think gets enough love is the Fight A Titan scenario. You're capped at level six and feats. If you're lucky, your wizard has quested specifically for and unlocked one, maybe two fourth level spells and is a peerless archmage. And you have to fight a Titan. Do you rush him? No. That's suicide. You're level six, even with TO there are limits. You perform the proper ritual to bind his power! You end up fighting a "Titan" that is an ogre or giant with some SLAs mechanically.

More D&D needs to work like that. More mythic adventure and less numbers crunch meat grinder.

RoboEmperor

2014-11-15, 02:27 AM

How can a sorcerer box a hecatoncheries into submission o_O? Shapechange has an HD limit of 25 and heca has 52.
Could you explain your necromancer's tactics more? what spell fuses all of its arms? What spell debuffs the Heca's strength with all its immunities?

I see what you mean by atropal however. I guess you can apply that trick to everything. Gate in a grappler you know and drag hecatoncheries into an environment it can't live in.

I'm starting to understand what you mean now, but still fuzzy ^^;;

Red Fel

2014-11-15, 02:30 AM

I'm just wondering how "normal" people take out epic monsters like hecatoncheries solo.

They don't.

Soloing an epic-level threat requires insane levels of optimization. And we're talking truly insane - if you fall victim to a single powerful debuff or weakening effect, and can't shrug it off immediately, it's game over. Epic level encounters are a whole new ball game.

Don't confuse things. The "normal" Wizard isn't going to solo most challenges, let alone epic ones. When you start asking "How do I solo X," you're asking for mid- to high-level optimization. When you start asking "How do I solo epic X," you're asking for truly cheesy stuff.

eggynack

2014-11-15, 02:31 AM

This isn't necessarily true.
Seems reasonably non-hyperbolic to me. I've probably put more thought and effort into various optimization pursuits than into my minor, though there were a couple of situations, that could plausibly not have happened, that required some serious brain-work (Long story short, one class that probably required more homework than all of my other classes on the topic combined, extending back into not-college). I still don't think I especially hold up against the folks really specialized in this area, though I think I do in other areas which I'm less specialized in.

RoboEmperor

2014-11-15, 02:36 AM

I think I have my answer

1. Kill them creatively with your DM
2. go pun pun or similarly cheesy stuff
3. don't kill them

Just out of curiosity, how would a normal epic party take out hecatoncheires? Just the standard fodder and DPS?

SiuiS

2014-11-15, 02:42 AM

The sorcerer in question is an elven half elf half-fiendish pit fiend with forty eight levels and some racial hit dice who built a demiplane that serves as the Death Star from which he wants to conquer the multiverse. There are some steps in between... Like, an entire campaign leading up to ECL 60 or so.

And no. He started life as an elf, the rest was all organic.

D&D is specific>general, though. So a spell that says "always works on hecatoncheires" would get through the immunities of a hecatoncheires. And I believe his Shapechange variant is twelfth level – but a spell called hecatoncheir form would be able to do it without worrying about the HD cap if you can convince the DM that the limits (only one form ever) make it capable of broader reach.

The fuse arms spell thingy is in spell compendium. It fuses all your arms into a single pair. For each arm lost, you gain +4 STR. Necro has their work cut out for them...

Epic challenges tend to be qualitative, not quantitative. We spent levels 13-21 doing time shenanigans with teleports, plane shifts and demiplanes. Our first real challenge after we settled the political mess that the 'endgame' left things in was divine punishment: axiomatic paragon aleaxes. The sorcerer's gathered a crew of useful fiends and celestials and ambushed the sorcerer after he had a hard fight and was on his way back home by cutting off his portal access and slogging it out in astral space. The sorceror eventually won because he had access to a piece of magic terrain/artifact the Aleax couldn't duplicate.

The wizard was entirely outclassed and spent the entire "fight" trying to outperform someone with an intelligence in the low 70s who thought exactly like they did but better. Randomization happened, a lot of escapes through reality maelstrom and such, but the divinations and blind luck of the Aleax won out. The wizard was struck down but was able to self incarnate due to a racial ability quirk, and managed to reclaim an artifact that ended the Aleax with ease – at the cost of a significant chunk of their humanity and sanity.

Another was Gothmog, king of Balrogs. I don't remember the details right now but there was fast healing, regeneration, and two feats: one that have you +2 (or maybe +4?) STR and con when hit with a single attack that did 50 or more damage, and another that have you similar benefits every 50 damage cumulative. The guy was untouchable, because whatever could actually hurt him made him stronger and more resilient. I think he was beat by a wish that duped calm emotions but in a way he wasn't immune to, dropping his con score by around 500 points and lowering his HP to "you've taken enough damage to be dead now". The fight to hold him off long enough to cast that wish was amazing to watch.

That's all more interesting to me than just a basic fight. If you want to focus on golems and undead, try to keep thegame scope low. Focus on the intimate details, not the cosmic ones.

RoboEmperor

2014-11-15, 04:13 AM

I got it, create an epic spell using the slay seed. For a level 21 wizard.
increase the saving throw DC by 39+19(his highest roll)-20(epic spell DC)-9(your int)+1=30 for a 95% to kill him. Increase SR penetration by 70-21(your cl)-2(your lowest roll)+1(you gotta beat his SR) = 48 for a 95% chance of it going through.

So 30x2 + 48x2 + 25(slay seed DC) = 181 + 20 for a 1 action casting time for a grand total of 201DC resulting in 1809000gp cost and 72360 XP. So you pay that cost once and now can cast this slay spell twice a day as a standard action, so you have a 90.25% chance of killing him with this one spell, 99.05% chance to kill him with 2 spells, so you just teleport in and just force cage yourself with bars. Hecatoncheires only has melee attack, no ranged attack, so just blast him twice with this epic spell and if he still stands, repeat the process next day. If you don't want to use force cage or if he does have some method of beating it, teleport in with like 10 skeletons. They'll take the hits for you while you're 300ft away casting this epic spell.

For Atropal, cast fly on a dominated tarrasque and have at em. Grapple + gate to positive energy plane or just kill him standard.

Alright I'm a plan my wizard. The noncombat minion master generalist pure wizard. I love epic spells. No matter how unoptimized your wizard is, that 1 feat lets you ultimately rule the world. Then again I could go non-mailman sorcerer and it'll be the same thing. W.e that's for me to ponder.

icefractal

2014-11-15, 05:16 AM

I suppose. Just seems to me that it's a bit of a sliding scale. There are obvious and trivial ways to accomplish this at most levels of game breakitude, so the only question is how many of those methods you're artificially restricting.The standard I use (for TO, anyway) is fairly simple: Would the thing you're doing create an unresolvable situation if both you and your opponent did it?

A lot of stuff can be stupidly powerful without being unresolvable. Hitting for scientific-notation amount of damage - no issue. Using Astral Projection to pop back into action on the same round the last one was destroyed - fine.

An arbitrarily large amount of minions in one place usually does make things unresolvable. Unless one side has the ability to ignore/slay all the opposing minions. An arbitrarily large amount of arbitrarily powerful minions (easily available if you open the Zodar Wish box) definitely does.

Where I differ from a lot of people's opinion is that I consider using a NI-loop, but only choosing to activate it a few times, to be a cop-out. You're still in fiat-town, you're just hiding it under a rug and pretending the rules are still meaningful.

Belial_the_Leveler

2014-11-15, 06:21 AM

@Hekatoncheires:
1) Twinned Telekinesis: 30x 25-lb drum of holy water thrown out of bag of holding. Touch AC is a joke. 1500d4 holy damage, no save. Hecatoncheires goes comatose.
2) Coup-degrace with trollbane mace of ruin. Next!

@Atropal:
1) Twinned Telekinesis: 30x 25-lb drum of holy water thrown out of bag of holding. Next!

@Demilich:
1) Twinned Telekinesis: 30x 25-lb drum of holy water thrown out of bag of holding. Next!

RoboEmperor

2014-11-15, 06:25 AM

Nice! Which book has the holy water you're mentioning?

the_david

2014-11-15, 06:36 AM

My current train of thought is
1. Find a tarrasque (Legend lore, knowledge checks with moment of prescience, etc.)
2. Fly really, realy high (tarrasques only have reach of 30ft)
3. Assay Resistance + True Casting + Dominate Monster. You have a 10+9(spell level)+9(your int) = 28, and against a will save of 20, you have a 7/20 = 35% of dominating it.
4. Use the dominated tarrasque to tank all of your future encounters
5. Once your tarrasque is tanking v.s. an epic creature like a Xixecal, direct damage it with metamagic'd orbs? Get MORE tarrasques and have them finish the job for you? Epic spell shenanigans?

I feel like I'm doing something wrong. What are some ways of wizards killing epic monsters solo?

edit: I'm looking mostly at pre-epic wizards or low-epic wizards
Have you considered how much you'd need to feed your Tarrasque? Have you considered that the Tarrasque sleeps for months or years at a time?

Why is it that everybody seems to go for the Tarrasque even though it's the dumbest thing to do? Well, at least your plan doesn't include magic jar.

RoboEmperor

2014-11-15, 07:05 AM

Have you considered how much you'd need to feed your Tarrasque? Have you considered that the Tarrasque sleeps for months or years at a time?

Why is it that everybody seems to go for the Tarrasque even though it's the dumbest thing to do? Well, at least your plan doesn't include magic jar.

Because Tarrasque is like the only super powerful guy that doesn't have immunities, especially mind controlling immunities. Can't dominate a Xixecal. Not to mention it's unkillable so you can reuse it after every encounter.

As to maintaining the Tarrasque, I don't think it needs to eat or sleep. I think it only eats because it wants to and it sleeps because it wants to. There doesn't seem to be a pattern and it was created by some evil guy or something to destroy the world. Worst case scenario you just let it do whatever it wants and just renew your dominate spell, that way it eats and sleeps on its own.

eggynack

2014-11-15, 07:11 AM

Because Tarrasque is like the only super powerful guy that doesn't have immunities, especially mind controlling immunities. Can't dominate a Xixecal. Not to mention it's unkillable so you can reuse it after every encounter.
Wouldn't particularly call the tarrasque super powerful. Doesn't seem right applying that title to any creature that loses to an allip every time.

Belial_the_Leveler

2014-11-15, 08:50 AM

Nice! Which book has the holy water you're mentioning?
The core rulebook. 1 lb of holy water does 2d4 damage on a hit to undead and evil outsiders, and 1 damage on a miss. You're just throwing 25-lb drums, a telekinesis effect allows you to throw 15 such drums at once and a twinned telekinesis doubles that amount. Seeing as the majority of powerful Epic enemies are evil outsiders and evil undead, there's no reason you shouldn't have prepared just such a plan against them. Similarly, alchemical acid and alchemist's fire in equally large quantities can damage epic enemies that aren't evil outsiders/undead that forgot their acid/fire immunity. Also, poisons and ravages can be put on darts - and said darts thrown by the bucketload with telekinesis. Contact poisons and ravages can also just be thrown directly, same as alchemical explosives above. And picking a ravage that ignores immunity to poison then throwing a few hundred doses at your victim will ensure they fail their saves on natural ones dozens of times.
Last but not least, grind some thinaun (the soultrapping metal) into small grains and add them to your bombs. A creature dying in contact with thinaun will have its soul automatically trapped in it. Not only do would-be ressurrectors have to realize the soul is trapped, but they'll also need to be searching the thousands of pieces of thinaun in the blast site to find out which one contains the soul...

Epic alchemists can be badass and the best alchemists are wizards.

SiuiS

2014-11-16, 01:26 AM

animewatcha

2014-11-16, 02:44 AM

If evil is around, you are not using enough holy water.

icefractal

2014-11-16, 02:56 AM

Re: Splash Weapons. That gets weird. I'm pretty sure being completely immersed in acid only does 10d6 damage, and logically there's a limit to how much deadly simply throwing more of it would be. Given the 1d6->10d6 thing, and the 2d6->20d6 thing for contact/immersion in lava, I'm inclined to generalize it to "maximum damage (full immersion) is equal to 10x splash damage".

Also, I feel like it might require a more than linear amount to achieve that immersion. If we apply the CR formula to it, we get:
1 - 4 doses = 1x - 4x damage
6 doses = 5x
8 doses = 6x
12 doses = 7x
16 doses = 8x
24 doses = 9x
32 doses = 10x
Which sounds pretty good, actually.

For substances like Alch Fire, Acid, etc, you can brew stronger versions of them with sufficient Craft(alchemy), so 10d6 isn't the max. Unfortunately, Epic monsters tend to have resist 30+ to most things. :smallsigh:

Anyway, this is kind of a tangent, sorry.