The straight up warmage... I could use some help with it

[dehro]

After a glorious run of being mostly dead most of the time, and little more useful than being mostly dead on occasion, I am retiring my defunct binder. My next character would be a warmage, with at most a single other class to dip into, preferably none.
Since we're at high level, I get to start him at 17th level, with a budget somewhere between 150 and 200k gold.
Limitations to sources are as follows: no third party material, no tome of battle or classes with stances, no setting specific books, no magazines, no monks or psionic powers. Any other book should be game.
Dice were rolled favourably with the following results: 17 17 16 13 12 9.

Since most online manuals seem geared towards using warmage as the starting point for multiclasses and gish characters I'm having a hard time figuring out how to best build up a blaster type character that stays simple and doesn't waste too many feats on things he wouldn't use or be good at... Or miss opportunities at picking proper feats.
We are: a favoured soul tank/healer, a cowardly buffing bard reptilian, an elven sorcerer png who mostly plays support role by buffing and placing walls (ok, the occasional fireball too) and another png of a thieving/ranged persuasion...
Uber optimisation is frowned upon but I believe I can get away with a fair bit, as long as I stick to my intention of not multiclassing (which I realise cuts out most attempts at optmising to begin with)
Suggestions? I could really use some help beyond being referred to a guide.
Thanks in advance

[Extra Anchovies]

Since you're starting at 17th level there is no reason to not be a Rainbow Warsnake. Considering that you're starting with a T4 class, it's not particularly TO.

If you really want a direct-damage spontaneous caster, play a Mailman Sorcerer; they get the job done a lot better.

However, a sample build for straight warmage:

Silverbrow Human Warmage 17
1st: Empower Spell, Versatile Spellcaster
3rd: Easy Metamagic (Empower Spell)
6th: Twin Spell
9th: Easy Metamagic (Twin Spell)
12th: Practical Metamagic (Twin Spell)
15th: Split Ray
18th: Easy Metamagic (Split Ray)

This gives you Empower Spell for +1, Twin Spell for +1, and Split Ray for +1.

Incantatrix works great here (tip: ban enchantment), but you seem opposed to PrCing. Regardless, a suggestion:

Silverbrow Human Warmage 6/Incantatrix 10/Warmage +1
1st: Versatile Spellcaster, Iron Will
3rd: Maximize Spell
6th: Easy Metamagic (Maximize Spell)
7th: Quicken Spell
9th: Easy Metamagic (Quicken Spell)
10th: Twin Spell
12th: Practical Metamagic (Quicken Spell)
13th: Split Ray
15th: Easy Metamagic (Twin Spell)
16th: Empower Spell
18th: Improved Initiative

From this, you can Maximize, Quicken, Twin, Split Ray, and/or Empower a spell, for a +1 adjustment each. Not too shabby. If you ever need to nova, consider Twinned Split Quickened Empowered Maximized Enervation + Twinned Split Empowered Maximized Enervation to lay down 48 negative levels in one round (at the cost of a 9th-level slot and an 8th-level slot).

Note: Use the Eclectic Learning ACF to pick up things like True Casting and Assay Resistance. Also consider Limited Wish so you can cast it to emulate Surge of Fortune and guarantee critical hits when you really need to deal lots of damage.

...wow. I like the non-RWS warmage a lot more now than I did before hammering that together.

[dehro]

Since you're starting at 17th level there is no reason to not be a Rainbow Warsnake. Considering that you're starting with a T4 class, it's not particularly TO.

If you really want a direct-damage spontaneous caster, play a Mailman Sorcerer; they get the job done a lot better.

However, a sample build for straight warmage:

Silverbrow Human Warmage 17
1st: Empower Spell
3rd: Easy Metamagic (Empower Spell)
6th: Twin Spell
9th: Easy Metamagic (Twin Spell)
12th: Practical Metamagic (Twin Spell)
15th: Split Ray
18th: Easy Metamagic (Split Ray)

Incantatrix works great here, but you seem opposed to heavy dips.
No idea what a mailman sorcerer is, but it sounds funny.
Why Silverbrow, if I may ask?

[Extra Anchovies]

No idea what a mailman sorcerer is, but it sounds funny.

This is the Mailman sorcerer (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1765181); it's generally considered the epitome of blaster-casters (or at least one of the very best examples).


Why Silverbrow, if I may ask?

You need the Dragonblood subtype for Practical Metamagic.

[kellbyb]

No idea what a mailman sorcerer is, but it sounds funny.
Why Silverbrow, if I may ask?

I present to you the mailman. (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1765181)

Silverblood humans are distinguished from regular humans by being of the dragonblood subtype, always having disguise as a class skill, and getting a feather fall spell-like ability.

[dehro]

What does the dragonblood subtype bring to the table other than the flavour?

[Extra Anchovies]

What does the dragon subtype bring to the table other than the flavour?

Dragonblood subtype is one of the prerequisites for Practical Metamagic, which is one of the two metamagic reducer feats available to spontaneous casters. Easy Metamagic is easier to qualify for (one metamagic feat vs. 8 spellcraft ranks, spontaneous third-level spellcasting, one metamagic feat, and dragonblood subtype), which is why it is the more-used one in both builds.

[dehro]

The depths of my ignorance and inability to see these connections is showing, as usual, lol

[Chambers]

Rainbow Warsnake is pretty much the definition of Uber Optimization, in my opinion. This doesn't sound like the right group for such a beast. My suggestion would be to embrace the blasting. It sounds like the party could use someone that can reliably drop some damage heavy spells and a Warmage / Stormcaster can deliver that.

Stormcaster is in the Stormwrack book and has easy requirements: Nonlawful, Arcana 4, Nature 4, able to cast Gust of Wind and either Lightning Bolt or Call Lightning. Warmage qualifies with just a few cross-class ranks in Knowledge Nature.

You need 2 other feats to optimize for Stormcaster; Energy Substitution (Electricity) and Rapid Metamagic. With those you can change any of your energy spells to Electricity on the fly for no cost (Energy Sub is +0), which means you can apply the Thunderbolt class feature of Stormcaster to nearly all of your damage spells. Thunderbolt adds a bit of Sonic damage to an Electricity spell and requires a Fort Save or Stunned if the target is damaged.

Stormcaster also gets some other neat abilities like bonuses to caster level with thematic spells and some mastery of storms and air, so there's some decent stuff spread out in it. A basic build would be Warmage 8 / Stormcaster 9, though you could start with Warmage 7 / Stormcaster 10 if you didn't care about getting the Medium armor for Armored Mage.

Edit: The Easy Metamagic feat is in Dragon Magazine, a banned source, so the Mailman isn't practical in this situation.

[Ellowryn]

Having the Dragonblood subtype is more important for a sorcerer than any other arcane caster (due to spells like wings of cover and wings of flurry), but it is still good for any arcane and a simple example is this: Having the dragonblood subtype on a arcane caster is like having a bonus to str on a melee character, you can live without but you are more powerful with it.

[Extra Anchovies]

Edit: The Easy Metamagic feat is in Dragon Magazine, a banned source, so the Mailman isn't practical in this situation.

Hm. Good catch. Revised suggested build:

1st: Empower Spell, Split Ray
3rd: Twin Spell
6th: Practical Metamagic (Empower)
9th: Practical Metamagic (Split Ray)
12th: Practical Metamagic (Twin)
15th: Arcane Thesis (something nasty, like Enervation)

[KillianHawkeye]

My only advice for playing a Warmage is avoid constantly forgetting to add the damage from your Warmage Edge ability. Forgetting that extra damage sucks a big one and I used to do it all the time!

[dehro]

Turns out easy Metamagic may be accepted because of existing precendent.. Banned sources are on the whole banned, but they may be up for debate, such as in this case.
But yeah, we're going with the single class option based on the first suggestion

[Taveena]

You can make a Mailman-lite by delaying Warmage 3 for long enough that you can get Celerity with Eclectic Learning, and then delaying further to get Arcane Spellsurge at Warmage 6. It's a little messy, but something like Warmage 2/Favored Soul 1/Mystic Theurge 2/Incantatrix 5/Warmage +1/Incantatrix +3/Warmage +3/Incantatrix +2 ends up with the wonderful Incantatrix capstone and those two spells snagged. I ran with Dragon Prophesier rather than Empower so I could focus more on amping up Twin/Maximize. It's still relatively lite, because you're not launching more than two spells a round, but it still puts out some rather impressive numbers.

[J-H]

It's too bad setting-specific books are out. Sandshaper (from Sandstorm) adds quite a few spells known and some good bonuses.

I suggest checking the Warmage sort-of Handbook:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2816.0

[ranagrande]

For something completely different:

Sacred Vow
Vow of Nonviolence
Vow of Peace
Empower Spell
Nonlethal Substitution
Split Ray

Shoot nonlethal scorching rays and fireballs at everything. Take everyone prisoner.

[dehro]

For something completely different:

Sacred Vow
Vow of Nonviolence
Vow of Peace
Empower Spell
Nonlethal Substitution
Split Ray

Shoot nonlethal scorching rays and fireballs at everything. Take everyone prisoner.

Sounds hilarious, but we're facing devils of unusual sizes on their home-turf, which makes taking prisoners highly unpractical

[dehro]

it appears to me that with the chosen build: Anchovies' first suggestion, the resulting character has average saving rolls, no immunity or resistance of any kind average or less than average AC and high chances of not being able to negate or avoid any damage or spell effect that will be thrown at him.
I'm going to buy a crapton of enhancing stuff.

on a separate note:

6th: Twin Spell
9th: Easy Metamagic (Twin Spell)
12th: Practical Metamagic (Twin Spell)
Anchovies... you then write that this gives me twin spell +1... isn't it +2 even with this combo? I am reading here it starts at +4.

[Extra Anchovies]

it appears to me that with the chosen build: Anchovies' first suggestion, the resulting character has average saving rolls, no immunity or resistance of any kind average or less than average AC and high chances of not being able to negate or avoid any damage or spell effect that will be thrown at him.
I'm going to buy a crapton of enhancing stuff.

on a separate note:

Anchovies... you then write that this gives me twin spell +1... isn't it +2 even with this combo? I am reading here it starts at +4.

You are indeed correct; I misremembered Twin as +3. I tend to do that, probably because Repeat is +3.

[Blackhawk748]

It's too bad setting-specific books are out. Sandshaper (from Sandstorm) adds quite a few spells known and some good bonuses.

I suggest checking the Warmage sort-of Handbook:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2816.0

Sandstorm is setting specific, its terrain specific, so Sandshaper is totally on the board. ALso its not a bad PrC to go 7 levels in, you lose on caster level and gain a bunch of spells known as well as the ability to shap sand into stuff (kinda meh but still fun) as well as the ability to apply metamagic for free a few times a day (WOOOOO!).

Otherwise i second Stormcaster, as then you can make Raiden jokes as you electrocute your enemies. Also Electricity is probably one of the least resisted elements barring sonic. Oh wait you do that too, oh joy!

Edit: Sadly setting specific is out otherwise id recommend Escalation Mage from Eberron, its fluff is delicious, the mechanics are good and its so much fun, all while not being OP.

[Grim Reader]

I second the Sand Shaper dip. It is one of your best options, and you can get most of the benefits from a 1-level dip which seems to be your preference.

Other good options: Dragon Compendiums Heritage feats. Necromantic Bloodline means that the Kin Mastery feat will give you Turn Undead as well.

Mage of the Arcane Order is also very good. Even with just a dip, although you'll probably want more levels.

Also, Fiend-Blooded is not a bad option. Not massivly dip-friendly though, you'll want to keep taking levels to keep the off-any-list spells coming. 9/10 casting but the lost level is the last one, so take a maximum of 9 levels. From the sounds of your campaign, this may be the one time the prerequisite Blood Calls to Blood is not a waste of a feat.

While Rainbow Warsnake is strong, I think the text-trumphs-table argument is not going to fly with your DM.

[Blackhawk748]

\Also, Fiend-Blooded is not a bad option. Not massivly dip-friendly though, you'll want to keep taking levels to keep the off-any-list spells coming. 9/10 casting but the lost level is the last one, so take a maximum of 9 levels. From the sounds of your campaign, this may be the one time the prerequisite Blood Calls to Blood is not a waste of a feat.

Wow, totally forgot about Fiend-Blooded, actually a really good PrC for where you guys are. Actually its pretty decent in general, except the pre req feats are kinda lame.

[Extra Anchovies]

While Rainbow Warsnake is strong, I think the text-trumphs-table argument is not going to fly with your DM.

Why not? Text supercedes the table in literally every single other instance of any 3.5 rule, anywhere, ever.

[Grim Reader]

Why not? Text supercedes the table in literally every single other instance of any 3.5 rule, anywhere, ever.

The primary problem is that you are making an argument that makes your character massivly more powerful, which runs contrary to some of the material in the books. Most DMs alarm bells go off at this.

Formally, the problem is that when there is a difference between books, the latest edition takes precedence, and apparently the Spanish edition of the book had the text corrected to match the table.

There were rumors that the even later Portugese edition corrdected the table to match the text, but I don't know anyone who has seen it.

Now the point can be made that the Frequently Debated Issues threat at the WOTC forums towards the end of 3.5 got some errata squeezed out of the developers, including a ruling. Which was basically that yes, the text trumphs table, but it was heavily recommended in this case to do it the other way.

However, my best google-fu has been unable to find the thread again, which is a pity, because it brough a lot of contested issues to the developers, and got answers.

[dehro]

just for the record, my "luck" at dice rolling trumps any kind of level of optimisation.
rolling a 1 when you're the target of a disintegrate spell is not a nice way to go.

[(Un)Inspired]

I also recommend Rainbow Servant. It's the easiest way to make a Warmage useful.

Beyond that, the bloodline feats in a Dragon mag compendium are pretty awesome for adding spells to your list.

If you really want to play a blaster you should take a level in rogue followed by the craven feat. Then cast telekinesis while invisible. Throw 15 arrow at someone for 15d4+15d6+255. Quicken it and Twin it and you can do decent damage. It's a pretty low investment (1 CL and 1 feat) way to at least keep in damage.

[The_Snark]

If you feel like playing a blaster-type character, I advise against taking Rainbow Servant. It's a fun class combo, but you're not playing a blaster at that point; you're playing a very versatile cleric with a few blasting spells on the side. (And yeah, many DMs I've known will rule that you go by the table. If you start at level 16+ I think this is a passable trade, you lose several spellcasting levels but you have easy access to a huge spell list.)

Middling-optimization things I can recommend:

Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Twin Spell, Repeat Spell are all good for enhancing damage-dealing spells. However, unless you have some way to reduce the cost of metamagic feats, you're not likely to get much use out of having more than 1-2 of these feats.

Metamagic reducers (Arcane Thesis, Easy Metamagic, Practical Metamagic) are quite good in conjuction with the above. Be careful of using too many, or you may get books thrown at your head (depending on how optimized your group tends to be).

I'm also sort of fond of Fell Drain, Fell Frighten and Fell Weaken, from Libris Mortis (in that order). Lets you add a bit of debuffing to your blasting spells. (I'm fond of taking these along with Arcane Thesis (magic missile) to apply no-save penalties to several enemies, fairly cheaply. It's a fun trick, although maybe a little underwhelming at level 17.)

If you can find room, Quicken Spell and Rapid Metamagic are worthwhile at this level - unfortunately, you'll need the latter to use the former at all.

Arcane Mastery is good for dealing with spell resistance, particularly if you combine it with some boosts to CL or CL checks. Taking 10 with a modifier 2-4 points above your level will let you ignore spell resistance on the majority of enemies you'll encounter. Spell Penetration will help here too, I guess, but I usually run out of feat slots before taking that.

[Gwendol]

Single-classed Warmage with those ability scores will do well using Arcane Disciple to complement eclectic learning and have a more diverse spell-list. Another feat to consider (from Sandstorm) is Fiery spell, which will cause your fire spells to harm anyone (and the Warmage has a few fire spells, to be sure, if not all the fire spells).

[dehro]

I have been less than clear... my character died an ignominous death, and is not coming back from it.

not that that changes my appreciation for the excellent suggestions this thread has brought forth.