Bladelock Advice

[Nifty]

Hey all,
I've been browsing the forum for a while now but this is my first post.
Also, i looked for a similar thread but nothing really answered my questions.

Next week my group will try out 5e. We play 3.5 weekly but I'm loving 5e so far and want to get the group to maybe switch or something.

Anyway, my character for the first try will be a lvl 5 drow bladelock.
I think i've got him mostly figured out, but the group i play in likes to optimize, to a certain extent anyway.
My plan is either cast darkness on myself and run in with my rapier pact weapon,
or -when not in daylight, or the party doesnt like my darkness- use Hex for extra damage.
The rest of the party is: Noble Half-orc frenzy barbarian (he has the noble background :smallbiggrin: ), dual wield crossbow halfling rogue, and some kind of spellcaster, wizard propably.

I'm having trouble with my spell choices, seeing as i can only cast 2/short rest and 1 of those will most likely be hex or darkness(i know drow can cast some extra spells 1/day, i'm keeping that in mind)

What spells would you choose?
I like hunger of hadar, but i feel it doesnt fit with the rest of the character.
Am i missing some cool spell choices??
Anything else i missed/could do better??



Quill
lvl 5 warlock, drow, Acolyte BG, alignment: LN i think.

Ability scores: (point buy)
Str 8 Dex 18(15+2+1) Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 16(16+1+1)

Skills:
Stealth, Religion, perception, insight, deception

Invocations:
Devil's Sight
Thirsting Blade
Armor of Shadows

Spells:
Dancing Lights, Eldritch Blast, Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion

Hex, Invisibility/Hunger of Hadar?, Darkness, Misty Step, Armor of Agathys, Fly


My history for him so far is that he grew up in a cult to Uvash (a great old one) in the Underdark. The cult isn't really accepted ofcourse, and members often had to relocated to another city.
Eventually his little cult family was found out and the drow slaughtered most of them. Quill was gone at the time or was able to escape.
Now he walks the world looking for a way to summon the great Uvash, so he can summon him in drow cities and bring the carnage.

His great wish is kind of evil, but he knows the value of a team. And he's not bloodthirsty or whatever.Therefore i think LN as an alignment is correct.

[Morukai]

Hey all,
I've been browsing the forum for a while now but this is my first post.
Also, i looked for a similar thread but nothing really answered my questions.

Next week my group will try out 5e. We play 3.5 weekly but I'm loving 5e so far and want to get the group to maybe switch or something.

Anyway, my character for the first try will be a lvl 5 drow bladelock.
I think i've got him mostly figured out, but the group i play in likes to optimize, to a certain extent anyway.
My plan is either cast darkness on myself and run in with my rapier pact weapon,
or -when not in daylight, or the party doesnt like my darkness- use Hex for extra damage.
The rest of the party is: Noble Half-orc frenzy barbarian (he has the noble background :smallbiggrin: ), dual wield crossbow halfling rogue, and some kind of spellcaster, wizard propably.

I'm having trouble with my spell choices, seeing as i can only cast 2/short rest and 1 of those will most likely be hex or darkness(i know drow can cast some extra spells 1/day, i'm keeping that in mind)

What spells would you choose?
I like hunger of hadar, but i feel it doesnt fit with the rest of the character.
Am i missing some cool spell choices??
Anything else i missed/could do better??



Quill
lvl 5 warlock, drow, Acolyte BG, alignment: LN i think.

Ability scores: (point buy)
Str 8 Dex 18(15+2+1) Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 16(16+1+1)

Skills:
Stealth, Religion, perception, insight, deception

Invocations:
Devil's Sight
Thirsting Blade
Armor of Shadows

Spells:
Dancing Lights, Eldritch Blast, Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion

Hex, Invisibility/Hunger of Hadar?, Darkness, Misty Step, Armor of Agathys, Fly


My history for him so far is that he grew up in a cult to Uvash (a great old one) in the Underdark. The cult isn't really accepted ofcourse, and members often had to relocated to another city.
Eventually his little cult family was found out and the drow slaughtered most of them. Quill was gone at the time or was able to escape.
Now he walks the world looking for a way to summon the great Uvash, so he can summon him in drow cities and bring the carnage.

His great wish is kind of evil, but he knows the value of a team. And he's not bloodthirsty or whatever.Therefore i think LN as an alignment is correct.

Couple things:
1. why armor of shadows, when you can wear light armor already? Consider agonizing blast instead... Now you can damage them up close AND at range. No one is safe! Wear studded leather, lose 1AC but gain +3 damage on every EB.

2. Misty Step, while not a bad spell per say, is a costly one for a character that can only cast 2 spells per short rest. Consider Phantasmal Force (a great spell if you are creative with it) instead.

3. Since your only int skill is religion, consider dumping Int and increasing Str instead. It might come in handy for those times when you need Bludgeoning weapon damage, or any strength checks/saves.

[Nifty]

Couple things:
1. why armor of shadows, when you can wear light armor already? Consider agonizing blast instead... Now you can damage them up close AND at range. No one is safe! Wear studded leather, lose 1AC but gain +3 damage on every EB.

2. Misty Step, while not a bad spell per say, is a costly one for a character that can only cast 2 spells per short rest. Consider Phantasmal Force (a great spell if you are creative with it) instead.

3. Since your only int skill is religion, consider dumping Int and increasing Str instead. It might come in handy for those times when you need Bludgeoning weapon damage, or any strength checks/saves.

1. I feel squishy with only AC 16, it's not bad AC, but i only have d8 HD, and ofcourse, my character works off of concentration spells, either Darkness or Hex, any hits on me could undo my spell.

2. I was considering phantasmal force, i was also thinking about any scary stuff Misty Step could help me out of, like grapples. Although i do have +4 on escape from grapple....

3. Good idea to switch int and str.

[Morukai]

1. I feel squishy with only AC 16, it's not bad AC, but i only have d8 HD, and ofcourse, my character works off of concentration spells, either Darkness or Hex, any hits on me could undo my spell.

2. I was considering phantasmal force, i was also thinking about any scary stuff Misty Step could help me out of, like grapples. Although i do have +4 on escape from grapple....

3. Good idea to switch int and str.

If breaking concentration is a big worry, consider the War Caster feat.

[Nifty]

It's on my to-get list ;)

[Morukai]

If you haven't already seen it, this may prove helpful too:
http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4133456


I disagree with some of the spell ratings, though (such as Phantasmal force)

[Nifty]

:o thx, haven't seen that guide yet.

[Mandrake]

Nifty, do you plan on multiclassing maybe?

[Yagyujubei]

you almost have to as a bladelock. getting access to assassinate or action surge really make the concept shine.

[hecetv]

you almost have to as a bladelock. getting access to assassinate or action surge really make the concept shine.

AS A NOTE: I've been writing this post and deleting it a bunch of times trying to pare it down, but I guess I just have a lot to say.... so sorry about the length of this post. With that said, here it goes:

I've been thinking about this a lot, bladelocks.

I don't disagree that multiclassing cant be powerful for the bladelock, maybe more so than any other class even. But I think the reason it seems powerful is because its hard to think of a bladelock completely through until 20.

Its hard, making a bladelock. And, again, Yagyujubei, I really don't disagree with you and I'm not trying to argue with you. Multiclassing is a really good way to get some support for melee fighting.

2 levels in fighter and you get a ton of weapon and armor proficiencies, you get action surge, a way to heal yourself for free, and the creme de la creme of being a martial character, you get a fighting style, which would really, really help bladelocks. Another level and you get some other juicy ability, such as criting twice as often.

2 levels in rogue and you get expertise, sweet, sweet expertise, cunning action, which has to be one of the most powerful abilities in the game, the way it messes up the action economy. You get sneak attack damage, which will really help our slightly underpowered and multi attribute dependent bladelock. A third level and you get assassinate, which is again, one of the more powerful abilities in the game, for the low low price of three levels.

And you give up three levels and what do you lose? You're still getting your pact's capstone, a 9th level spell.

And the competition for gishhood is intense.

Valor bards, those asshats, are the other full caster who gets two attacks, not to mention better armor proficiencies inherently, as well as the ability to cast a spell and attack in the same turn. Clerics get heavy armor at level one, druids get to be full casters and turn into bears.

Then theres eldritch knights, who are fighters with some awesome abilities and spell support. Paladins are insane in this edition. Rangers I think are underrated thus far but even they get better armor profs, some fighting styles, and much, much more.

All of those classes are easier to make an effective melee combatant out of.

Even if at level 12 you have 20 charisma and 20 strength and a greatsword, so you could be doing 4d6+20 every round with your attacks, thats only 34 average damage, and to get to those stats, you probably don't even have great weapon master, you don't have great weapon fighting style, and hell, you don't even have medium armor yet. Without rolling really well you can't even have those stats with standard pointbuy. If you started out with 16s in charisma and strength (say as a human who put 15 into both and got +1's from your racial bonuses), you won't even have that many more points to beef up con, and to get 20s in each would take you at least 4 stat increases, which you won't have by level 12. And even in that unlikely scenario, a fighter with 20 strength and heavy armor is going to have way better AC, and be swinging three times instead of 2, and have a fighting style and feats, and if he's an eldritch knight he's already casting spells.

Its hard being a bladelock. You'll never be that good at fighting. Its just not going to happen. But thats okay, you're not an eldritch knight. You're a warlock. You're a full caster with a host of crazy abilities. By level 12 the eldritch knight isn't even casting third level spells yet, and you're already unable to even cast a spell below 5th level. And thats not even the start of weird and crazy abilities you have going for you. You basically start to become a monster, with a ton of spell like abilities, powerful spells, weird attacks and strange abilities that other classes will never get, such as being able to spam detect magic whenever you want, see through (and create) magical darkness like it was nothing, turn into other people whenever you want, charm people whenever, hurl people through hell. You've got a lot going on, and on top of all of that, you're casting really powerful spells all the time. Hell, the warlock even gets the best attack cantrip.

And thast why I don't know if multiclassing is the answer. It's an answer but not THE answer. Someone said it, I forget who, and I forget where, but bladelocks are the other side of the mirror from eldritch knight. Thats a martial character with spellcasting added on as a lesser piece, a bladelock is a caster with some martial prowess.

I think to maximize that takes feat support for melee fighting, and I think you need to be really careful because warlocks don't get as many feats as fighters, and our built in melee support is pretty small, aside from a handfull of spells and innvocations. And I think to do that you need to start fighting dirty.

Whats the highest base AC a warlock can have without wearing armor? Mage armor 13 + 5 dex? Then lets add +1 from two weapon fighting, so thats 19 already. Not too bad for one feat, and thats giving you three attacks, the offhand attack of which won't be that good, unless you have some kind of freaky dagger which has some spooky magic on it, in which case the difference between that and your mainhand attacks can start to diminish, raising your average dps. Hex helps. And you only needed 1 feat to get there, freeing you up for other stuff (defensive duelist? mobility to move (duh) around combat?).

I think polearm master + sentinel can be really strong for bladelocks. With a glavie you can be really effective at keeping people away from you, by stopping them when they get too close. That works right? Two feats, and you get a third attack which can get to 1d4+5 and then hex and whatever else. You can hang out poking people and not letting them near you all day, and then if somehow they do get close, darkness. Or misty step. Or turn invisible. Or levitate your ass out of there. Or send them straight to hell and then walk away for a turn. Or whatever. Millions of options to really control people this way I think.

Great Weapon Mastery is tricky I think, but with darkness + devils sight or any other spell or ability combo to give you advantage, you can get those bonus crit attacks probably pretty well. And if you can hit with two attacks even taking -5, if you're doing 46+20(or if you got great weapon master and are level 12, lets say max +16)+20, plus maybe a bonus attack if you crit, thats a lot of damage for a full caster to dish out in melee. And people keep talking about fiend pact and stacking up temp HP to keep yourself alive. Sounds awesome to me, but I haven't really looked at it.

You can get armor feats. Its up to you how high to go, I think medium armor mastery is probably better than getting full plate, because you can sneak around and get almost as high AC. Hell if we go with medium armor proficiency and mastery and a sword and shield (for a human, minimum level 8, everyone else, level 12), that means what you're walking around with 20 AC and a magic sword. Oh and once again casting a minimum of 5th level spells. Hell and levitating through town just because you can, whenever you want. While stealthing. So yes, fighters can have a better AC, but they can't levitate themselves around town. And if you started with 16 charisma like a good caster, or even with 14, you can still get up to 20 charisma by level 16 or 19, and still be a bomb ass caster, just floating around with a magic sword. OR in full plate! Paint your armor white and convince people you're the ghost of an ancient warrior!

And thats the point. You give up things to go straight through warlock bladelock. But you get stuff back when you do it.

What was my point?

Oh yeah, theres no wrong way to build a bladelock, you just have to decide what you want.

Sorry to ramble for so long.

[Felvion]

Sorry to ramble for so long.

Worth the reading though... Gj making your point there mate!

[RealCheese]

*snip*
Awesome post, dude, makes me want to roll a pure bladelock!

[Nifty]

I was actually contemplating multiclassing too.
I tried a dip in fighter and rogue, even as far as 3 levels. (which isn't technically a dip anymore at lvl 5 :P)
But every time i tried to build a multiclasser i wasn't happy with it.
With warlock 5 you get some nice stuff: 2 attacks, good AC through Dex+armor/mage armor, 3de lvl spell slots.


snip
Very nice read, i was actually thinking of multiclassing later on (if we come to that) but now i think full warlock is the way to go ;)

[Mandrake]

snip

I agree - there is no right way to make it. And, personally, this is the third level I have been postponing multiclassing my Rogue into a Fighter. I can see the benefits, but then I think, I have plenty right here. :)

[Submortimer]

I agree with a lot of the advice here, but I will say that even a single fighter level dip will help you out drastically. Take your next level in Fighter, grab dueling and a shield, and enjoy your 20 AC at level 6. Or, readjust and take fighter as your first level, then rock full plate and a shield.

Also, for the love of everything holy, get agonizing blast and put eldritch blast on your spell list. There is nothing bad to be said about that spell, and being able to blast for 2d10+6 at level 5 is a tool you NEED to have in your toolbox. the amount of times it is more useful to hang back and lob beams of death in (as well as having a reliable source of Force damage) are uncountable.

Edit: Didn't read your cantrip list. My bad :)

[Submortimer]

I think polearm master + sentinel can be really strong for bladelocks. With a glavie you can be really effective at keeping people away from you, by stopping them when they get too close. That works right? Two feats, and you get a third attack which can get to 1d4+5 and then hex and whatever else. You can hang out poking people and not letting them near you all day, and then if somehow they do get close, darkness. Or misty step. Or turn invisible. Or levitate your ass out of there. Or send them straight to hell and then walk away for a turn. Or whatever. Millions of options to really control people this way I think.


The trick here is to eventually combine that whole mess with War Caster and Repelling Blast. moving in to attack you results in an AoO, you can cast EB as an AoO, EB then pushes them 10 feet for every beam you hit them with, and the circle of death continues.

[Yagyujubei]

reading what people have to say I do agree that if you MC as a bladelock you shouldn't do it right up front as warlock is a pretty frontloaded class as far as features go, and I think you want to wait until you get you 5th level spells before you branch out. so looking at the table I'm thinking lvl 12 would be a good place to take a diversion from the warlock class. you have your 3rd spellslot and spells of 5th level, access to both of the core bladelock invocations, and you've gotten your first arcanum opening up more spell versatility.

then you could dip 3 levels into rogue to grab assassinate (likely if you went fey pact) or 2-3 levels into fighter (for feindpact takers) and finish off the rest of your levels as warlock grabbing the rest of the arcanums as you go.

the only downside to this is that you dont get your 4th spell slot until 20 which is pretty big, but the benefits of the dips merit serious consideration imho.