Magic System Alterations For a Norse Setting?

[Amaril]

I'm thinking about a game with a largely Norse mythology-inspired setting. One of the things I thought would be a good idea for this is to eliminate the separation between arcane and divine magic in the world; magic is just magic, and the only differences between different casters are their particular traditions and skill sets. This feels more in line with the portrayal of magic in Norse mythology to me. To go along with this idea, I've thought about a couple ways I could (hopefully) make building a spellcaster a little more flexible--if all magic is essentially the same, I would think there would be more possible overlap and transparency between casters--without giving any individual caster more power. I'm hoping someone can look over these ideas and tell me whether they're usable.

Here's what I'm thinking:


No clerics. They don't really seem to fit with the Norse feel to me.
At character creation, bards may choose between Charisma and Intelligence to use for their spellcasting attribute. This is intended to reflect whether their magical abilities are innate or learned (I think they should be able to choose either). The choice cannot be changed later.
Also at creation, sorcerers must choose whether to draw their spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or the druid one. This is mostly meant to allow them more choice in flavor; if druids and wizards use the same magic and are separated only by differing traditions and methods, it makes sense to me that sorcerers could be gifted in either type. Regardless of which they choose, they learn the same number of spells and cast them in the same way. This choice cannot be changed later.


Would any of these break the game? They may very well be terrible, since I just came up with them a minute ago and have given them little thought, but I'm just brainstorming right now.

Also, how would you personally go about structuring magic for a Norse-inspired setting? Someone else might have better ideas than me.

[Fax Celestis]

Take the runecaster PrC and make it the base class features of the wizard. Do the same thing with skald and bard. Give paladins From Smite to Song for free.

[Amaril]

Take the runecaster PrC and make it the base class features of the wizard. Do the same thing with skald and bard. Give paladins From Smite to Song for free.

Can I make sure these are the right sources?

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Rune_Caster_(3.5e_Class)
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Skald_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)
http://dndtools.eu/feats/champions-of-valor--28/from-smite-to-song--1195/

[Extra Anchovies]

I would actually recommend that Bards cast from Wisdom; in most northern european folklore, the various magical tricksters/musicians tend to rely a lot on intuition and, well, wisdom more than they do on force of personality or raw intellect. Also, that way there's still a wisdom-based caster.

[Amaril]

I would actually recommend that Bards cast from Wisdom; in most northern european folklore, the various magical tricksters/musicians tend to rely a lot on intuition and, well, wisdom more than they do on force of personality or raw intellect. Also, that way there's still a wisdom-based caster.

I do still have druids for a Wisdom-based full caster, as well as both paladins and rangers casting from Wisdom. I see your point, though. I'm reluctant to deny players the option of Charisma-caster bards completely, but how about I make the choice between Wisdom and Charisma rather than Intelligence and Charisma?

[Extra Anchovies]

I do still have druids for a Wisdom-based full caster, as well as both paladins and rangers casting from Wisdom. I see your point, though. I'm reluctant to deny players the option of Charisma-caster bards completely, but how about I make the choice between Wisdom and Charisma rather than Intelligence and Charisma?

I think that would make more sense than Int/Cha, yes. Also an Int-based bard would be in every way superior to a Cha-based bard. Their DCs would no longer key off Charisma, and their performance abilities only key off ranks in Perform, not their total modifier, so they could dump Charisma for Intelligence; plus they get 6+Int skills to begin with. They'd be annoyingly versatile.

[torrasque666]

Can I make sure these are the right sources?

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Rune_Caster_(3.5e_Class)
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Skald_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)
http://dndtools.eu/feats/champions-of-valor--28/from-smite-to-song--1195/

I think for runecaster he meant this one: http://dndtools.eu/classes/runecaster/
Dunno about Skald.
The feat looks right.

[Blackhawk748]

Can I make sure these are the right sources?

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Rune_Caster_(3.5e_Class)
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Skald_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)
http://dndtools.eu/feats/champions-of-valor--28/from-smite-to-song--1195/

The last one is right, the first 2 are not. As a rule dont use D and D wiki, its notoriously bad. Also you may want to look at the Generic Spellcaster from Unearthed Arcana.

[Extra Anchovies]

Dunno about Skald.

Maybe Fax is referring to the Pathfinder Skald base class?

[torrasque666]

The last one is right, the first 2 are not. As a rule dont use D and D wiki, its notoriously bad. Also you may want to look at the Generic Spellcaster from Unearthed Arcana.

Unless it says SRD or UA in the title. Those are taken directly from the SRD.

[nedz]

Can I make sure these are the right sources?

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Rune_Caster_(3.5e_Class)
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Skald_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)
http://dndtools.eu/feats/champions-of-valor--28/from-smite-to-song--1195/

There are no guarantees with dandwiki, dndtools is pretty good though.

[Blackhawk748]

Unless it says SRD or UA in the title. Those are taken directly from the SRD.

True, even then im still leery about using it at all.

Edit: to be more helpful the Runecaster is a Prestige class from Faerun, sadly i dont remember what book.

[Amaril]

Yeah, I know D&DWiki isn't all that reliable, but I figured I may as well check. I'll look around for some more; the Faerun thing should narrow it down.

Anyway, it sounds like people are saying most of my originally proposed changes (with the exception of the casting stat choice for bards, which I have now changed the options for) are okay balance-wise?

[torrasque666]

True, even then im still leery about using it at all.
That's your problem then. Don't turn people away from a source, even it if takes work to make sure its right. That's part of what researching is about.

[KingSmitty]

allow half-giants for the more berserker types, but take away psionics from them. My dm gave my nordic half-giant power attack for free plus some other cool things to make up for not being psychic. works very well in a human heavy setting.

[Amaril]

allow half-giants for the more berserker types, but take away psionics from them. My dm gave my nordic half-giant power attack for free plus some other cool things to make up for not being psychic. works very well in a human heavy setting.

I'd prefer to keep this thread to just talking about magic, if that's okay--I'm still deciding on whether I'd allow non-human or part-human characters in a game like this.

That said, I want to explain a little bit about what I imagine the role and flavor of each allowed core class most likely being in this kind of setting:


Barbarians are the expected berserker warriors. Business as usual here.
Bards are the essential and equally-expected skalds.
Druids are wise spellcasters from old traditions that draw power from a holistic oneness with the world and the gods.
Fighters are highly skilled warriors, nothing really new here either.
Paladins are magically-gifted warriors, possibly champions of some god or another, and possibly more independent.
Rangers are like paladins, but with a different skillset more oriented toward stealth and fieldcraft.
Rogues are your typical thieves and scoundrels, as per usual.
Sorcerers are people who happen to have been born with some measure of magical talent. They have a narrower range of abilities than trained casters, but can be just as competent within their natural specialization.
Wizards are scholars who draw magic from arcane knowledge, including mastery over the power of runes.

[Blackhawk748]

Anyway, it sounds like people are saying most of my originally proposed changes (with the exception of the casting stat choice for bards, which I have now changed the options for) are okay balance-wise?

They should be fine, though i feel a Sorcerer casting Druid spells wouldn't be all that great. Also there is the Spirit Shaman which is a Spontaneous caster that uses the Druid list. I would say let the Sorc pick from both but i think that might end badly.

[Gullintanni]

Magic's a really different animal in Norse settings. It's a lot more subtle. Enchantment, Illusion, Abjuration, some Necromancy, Divination and maybe a little bit of Transmutation here and there. I'd outright eliminate most conjuration and I can't think of an evocation that'd really fit.

Look to LotR for a good example of what Norse magic might look like, as LotR draws from the Norse sagas for a great deal of its inspiration and lore.

Beguilers, Druids, Dread Necromancers...Cloistered Clerics (fluffed as oracles or diviners, and their holy symbol would be a set of runes carved into bones) you can probably get away with, and if you're going to use Bard, consider making Savage Bards the standard.

I'm going to echo suggestions for Runecasting as a possible base mechanic for probably all casters. I might eliminate Wizards altogether -- leave arcane casting to sorcerers. The Norse didn't keep extensive writings. A spellbook would therefore be anachronistic.

[Amaril]

Magic's a really different animal in Norse settings. It's a lot more subtle. Enchantment, Illusion, Abjuration, some Necromancy, Divination and maybe a little bit of Transmutation here and there. I'd outright eliminate most conjuration and I can't think of an evocation that'd really fit.

Look to LotR for a good example of what Norse magic might look like, as LotR draws from the Norse sagas for a great deal of its inspiration and lore.

Beguilers, Druids, Dread Necromancers...Cloistered Clerics (fluffed as oracles or diviners) you can probably get away with, and if you're going to use Bard, consider making Savage Bards the standard.

I'm going to echo suggestions for Runecasting as a base mechanic for probably all casters.

Mhm, I realize it's traditionally portrayed as a lot more subtle. However, I think for the sake of D&D (which I'm just sticking to because of the almost universal system familiarity it has for anyone I'd want to play this with), I can adapt the source material to allow for some more high-magic stuff going on. I'd still want to limit things to low-level, E6 or thereabouts, to keep it from getting too ridiculous.

Funny you should mention LotR, because when I started wanting to run a game like this, my first idea was to use a LotR system I like, The One Ring RPG, and adapt it for a custom setting. However, largely because character creation in that system is so closely tied to the setting of Middle-Earth, I realized it would be a lot simpler and more practical to tweak 3.5 for this purpose than to adapt TOR (as unbelievable as that may sound).

I like runecasting, and it definitely fits, but I'm more inclined to just make it a fluff component of existing magic (primarily wizards, as I mentioned above).

[Mr.Kraken]

I have created a whole supplement based on Norse mythology for a past campaign, I still have the pdf, but it's in portuguese. In my campaign, I reffluffed the cleric into the Godi and into the Priest. The first was based on the religious leaders of nordic settlements, and the latter, based on catholic priests found on the Britain-inspired land of Albion. So, I think it's okay to leave the cleric as a choice, as the Godi were an integral part of norse tradition. I even think they need no changes, since their martial proficiency can be explained by the fact that they are... well, norse. Everyone is expected to know how to fight. The Priest, on the other hand, used the wizard's progression for his BAB and saves, and had no weapon and armor proficiency.

[Amaril]

I have created a whole supplement based on Norse mythology for a past campaign, I still have the pdf, but it's in portuguese. In my campaign, I reffluffed the cleric into the Godi and into the Priest. The first was based on the religious leaders of nordic settlements, and the latter, based on catholic priests found on the Britain-inspired land of Albion. So, I think it's okay to leave the cleric as a choice, as the Godi were an integral part of norse tradition. I even think they need no changes, since their martial proficiency can be explained by the fact that they are... well, norse. Everyone is expected to know how to fight. The Priest, on the other hand, used the wizard's progression for his BAB and saves, and had no weapon and armor proficiency.

Ah, okay, this is helpful, and something I wasn't really aware of. I haven't done much study of real-life Norse culture--most of my knowledge is of mythology (and I still have some significant gaps in that awareness as well). I'd never really found any mention of Norse communities having religious leaders or ceremonies. My google-fu is weak, so if you have any good sources for information on that kind of thing, I'd really appreciate them. Now that I know about this, though, I'll look into keeping the cleric as a possibility.

[DMVerdandi]

Take Spirit shaman.
Remove all class abilities
Keep casting mechanic, increase spell list to all spells.
Replace skills with any 10 of choice

Rename Seiðr.

[Amaril]

Take Spirit shaman.
Remove all class abilities
Keep casting mechanic, increase spell list to all spells.
Replace skills with any 10 of choice

Rename Seiðr.

Given your recommendation to increase their casting list to all spells, I'm guessing you're suggesting I remove all other full casters from play. I'm really not sure about this. I love the fluff of this idea, but I don't really see why the druid can't fill this exact same role.

[Mr.Kraken]

Ah, okay, this is helpful, and something I wasn't really aware of. I haven't done much study of real-life Norse culture--most of my knowledge is of mythology (and I still have some significant gaps in that awareness as well). I'd never really found any mention of Norse communities having religious leaders or ceremonies. My google-fu is weak, so if you have any good sources for information on that kind of thing, I'd really appreciate them. Now that I know about this, though, I'll look into keeping the cleric as a possibility.

Lady Wikipedia, save us all! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothi

There isn't much, but it was enough for me to mantain the cleric in the game.

Also, in my opinion, seidr should be much more of a social stigma than a proper class. To the common folk, a wizard, a sorcerer, a warmage, or any other kind of arcane caster would be called and accused of seidr. Druids, on the other hand, would be better used as wise men and women, or servants of the wilderness gods, or even as shamans of other cultures (namely, sami and celts).

[AmberVael]

Magic's a really different animal in Norse settings. It's a lot more subtle. Enchantment, Illusion, Abjuration, some Necromancy, Divination and maybe a little bit of Transmutation here and there. I'd outright eliminate most conjuration and I can't think of an evocation that'd really fit.

Well... some of the time.

Other times you have half-elven princesses raising legions of the unholy dead and summoning giant demon boars. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skuld_(princess))
I notice the demon boar part isn't mentioned on wikipedia. How disappointing.

(Skuld is my favorite.)

[nedz]

Runecaster is in Player's Guide to Faerûn p69, though there is a 3.0 version in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting p51

[Blackhawk748]

Well... some of the time.

Other times you have half-elven princesses raising legions of the unholy dead and summoning giant demon boars. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skuld_(princess))
I notice the demon boar part isn't mentioned on wikipedia. How disappointing.

(Skuld is my favorite.)

Now i want to make an Elven Princess who is a Necromancer with a pet Half Fiend Dire Boar.

[Mr.Kraken]

I don't think the rune related classes in Forgotten Realms could grasp the feel of norse rune casting. In my game, I created special ruling and a prestige class for runecasting. In it, each rune contained three different spells based on the meaning of each rune, and you could also reverse cast, which was based on the idea that a reversed rune would mean the exact opposite of its original meaning. For example, a rune meaning Life, if reversed, would mean Death and its power would then change from Cure Light Wounds to Inflict Light Wounds. It was really cool.

Also, check Dragon Compendium. They talk about Runes and Runestones in a much more faithful way over there.

And the Viking fighter archetype from Pathfinder is really good too.

[Blackhawk748]

I don't think the rune related classes in Forgotten Realms could grasp the feel of norse rune casting. In my game, I created special ruling and a prestige class for runecasting. In it, each rune contained three different spells based on the meaning of each rune, and you could also reverse cast, which was based on the idea that a reversed rune would mean the exact opposite of its original meaning. For example, a rune meaning Life, if reversed, would mean Death and its power would then change from Cure Light Wounds to Inflict Light Wounds. It was really cool.

Also, check Dragon Compendium. They talk about Runes and Runestones in a much more faithful way over there.

And the Viking fighter archetype from Pathfinder is really good too.

As odd as this is gonna sound you may want to look at the Truenamer, as all of their words can be reversed. Im not saying use the class (dear god dont do that) but many of their powers should work as a basis for new spells for the Runecaster.

[DMVerdandi]

Given your recommendation to increase their casting list to all spells, I'm guessing you're suggesting I remove all other full casters from play. I'm really not sure about this. I love the fluff of this idea, but I don't really see why the druid can't fill this exact same role.

I mean the druid can, but then you get the rest of the fluff from the druid. While the druid itself is more of a gaelic concept, you could still simply change the name and enhance the spell list to all of them, but then everyone gets the shape changing and animal companion (Which could still work because of the prevalence of those powers in mythological spell casters.)

Druid into Seiðr could work.:smallamused:

[Faily]

I personally wouldn't do away with Cleric, but I would very much restrict their Domain-choices (and keep it either strictly to Nordic-themes or the ones given to the Aesir in Deities and Demigods). Just give them most of the fluff of the Favored Soul in that they are shown favor by one or more of the Aesir, rather than being specific priests.

Frostburn got some good PrC options for a Norse-setting, even for Clerics (Winterhaunt of Iborighu and Rimefire Witch of Hleid). In short, I'd just stay give Frostburn a good reading for not only magic but also for the feel of the frozen north. :smallwink:

Limit magic items. Few potions, hardly any scrolls or wands. Though you could take the option to use something like the magic runes of the Runecaster in Player's Guide to Faerun. Magical items appear in Norse mythology stories, but they are often one-of-a-kind type, and rarely the disposable magic like potions and scrolls are.

[Mr.Kraken]

You'll want to have a nithing pole: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nithing_pole.

Could be a Bestow Curse trap or magic item. You could even create a monster - the reanimated skin of the horse - out of it.

The nith is a good plot device, and it gives you lots of guidance relating to what's accepted and what's not accepted in norse society. Magic is not accepted, by the way. Take a look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C4%AB%C3%BE

The norsemen had three types of magic, in my view: runemagic, seidr and völvas. Runemagic was a mysterious practice, and somewhat acceptable in norse society, since Odin himself practices it. You could use it as a name for divine magic, or as a different, homebrewed type of magic, or maybe you prefer to use the Runecaster. Keep in mind that each rune was believed to have a special meaning and power. Modern Àsatrú and neopaganism also believe that a reversed rune can be used for reverse effects.

Seidr was more akin to arcane magic, but it was a polarizing practice. It was acceptable for women to be seidr, since magic was considered a womanly thing. In norse tradition, seidr magic was strongly related with weaving, as a woman would wield a distaff while chanting her magic words. Seidr magic, in this sense, was used more to make crops grow, protect the family from winter or to help a raiding husband. There were also some obscure sex magic rituals. Men who practice seidr are usually shunned and considered niding. It would be interesting if you use it on your campaign: For example, if one of your players would be an arcane spellcaster, he should hide his powers beneath the socially-acceptable facade of a strong warrior, or else he face exile or execution.

Völvas were wise women who lived on the fringe of norse society. They lived in caravans and were respected for their magic. They were much like oracles, being able to peer into the future, present or past, and also talk with the gods. They could be female wizards specialized in the divination school.

[Amaril]

-snip-

This is also very helpful information, regardless of accuracy. However, I see some stuff that I'd probably want to change for my setting, though I don't think it would lose too much of the general Norse feel in the process.

First of all, I'd probably stick to two main magical traditions instead of three, drawn mainly from rune magic and seithr rather than the practices of Völvas. Given how specific an occurrence Völvas sound like they were, I think I'd probably end up just subsuming them and other practitioners like them into one of the larger categories.

Second, I've always seen rune magic as more of an arcane thing than a divine. Really, I don't get why it always seems to show up as a divine casting method in D&D--it's based on drawing power from words that don't necessarily have any inherent connection to a god or deific entity, and those words can be used by anyone regardless of faith, which sounds to me like textbook arcane magic. I think in my setting I'd want to tie runes to arcane casting. In fact, when I first started thinking about this setting a while back before dropping it until recently, I came up with the idea for Rune, the goddess of magic, who makes it her mission to serve as a guide for all mortal arcane casters and command them in the proper use of their powers (her name was supposed to be the origin of the word "runes"). I definitely don't want to keep the arcane/divine separation, but I do think I want to have rune magic be one of the defining features of wizardry--maybe I'll go a route similar to Terry Pratchett, and have the runes actually be spirits who can take up residence in a wizard's mind when read to power specific spells. With the goddess Rune in the picture, these spirits could be her servants. I'm not really sure how I want to handle that, though, so I'll come back to it.

Anyway, with that decided, druidic or otherwise non-rune-based magic by other classes seems a clear analogue for seithr. I'm not sure what I want to do about its cultural acceptance, but I don't think I want to keep it as just women can do it, men can't. Regardless, as non-Intelligence based casting, it'll be more like I get the sense seithr was supposed to be, focused on communion with the gods, spirits, or natural forces.


I personally wouldn't do away with Cleric, but I would very much restrict their Domain-choices (and keep it either strictly to Nordic-themes or the ones given to the Aesir in Deities and Demigods). Just give them most of the fluff of the Favored Soul in that they are shown favor by one or more of the Aesir, rather than being specific priests.

Okay, I see your point, but at this juncture I'm still inclined to do away with the cleric class proper. You talk about restricting the cleric's power to appropriate themes for a Norse setting--from what I can tell, that would largely mean keeping it more closely tied to nature, and I think that role can be filled by the druid. Alternatively, people mention that the martial skill of a cleric is fitting for a society in which everyone is expected to be able to fight, but if an armed and armored divinely blessed warrior is what you're after, I'd think the paladin and ranger would be better able to suffice. I'm thinking now that rather than having something like Gothi be a specific class, it'll just be a societal role assumed by whatever magic-user or wise person is believed to be closest to the gods in a particular settlement, whether that means a druid, a wizard, or possibly even a sorcerer or some other caster (or maybe even someone with no actual magical ability at all).

I think it's pretty clear that I'll need to give some of the classes new names to make them fit, but I was planning on that anyway.


Limit magic items. Few potions, hardly any scrolls or wands. Though you could take the option to use something like the magic runes of the Runecaster in Player's Guide to Faerun. Magical items appear in Norse mythology stories, but they are often one-of-a-kind type, and rarely the disposable magic like potions and scrolls are.

Out of curiosity, since I've never really gotten a straight answer to this, how are magic items best handled in E6 or similar games? Can one get away with making them rare and special, or does restricting the level not do enough to reduce the martial classes' dependency on them?