How viable is create undead and create greater undead?

[RoboEmperor]

These two spells are driving me nuts. Animate dead has a built-in control, but these undead need to be controlled by other means. Command undead is dubious as it makes the intelligent undead "friendly" not "helpful", so the only way around this I can think of is "Join my army of the dead for an exciting adventure" and win the charisma check via moment of prescience.

1. Is there a better way of controlling them? Only other way I can think of is making an armor/shield of undead controlling since it lasts 24 hours on upto 26HD of undead once a day since the spell control undead lasts 1min/level. This is gonna be an intensive investment both GP wise and XP wise, which brings me to the next question

2. Are the spells viable?
a. At levels 15-17 are mummies useful?
b. At levels 18+ are mohrgs useful?
c. At levels 16th-17th are wraiths useful?
d. At levels 18th-19th are spectres useful?
e. At level 20 are devourers useful?

These undead at these levels have pitiful BAB and hp which worries me. The only undead I consider remotely useful is the devourer for its instant-kill attack at +15 BAB, and the spectre for creating a massive spectre army I have complete control of as long as I keep up the undead controlling on the spectre that started the killing, but the spectres themselves have crap hp and BAB especially for a level 18 adventuring party, though I could think of some out-of-combat uses like spying, scouting, etc.

Are the create undead spells useful or should I just stick to animate dead? I was planning on raising weak corpses with create undead and good corpses with animate dead.

[Blackhawk748]

This is why Rebuke is necessary for Necros, or you just never use the spells, i dont, but thats me. Also each of those undead are useful for certain things, Wraiths can absolutely wreck stuff that doesnt have some sort of defense against ability drain and they are really hard to see in the dark. Do with that what you will.

The only things Mummies are, is durable, but they are REALLY durable. That DR gives them a lot of staying power in a fight against mooks, which is why i tend to summon them with Summon Undead, this is also my recommendation to you.

[RoboEmperor]

Nice! You seem to know what you're talking about. From reading your post I just realized wraiths only need a TOUCH attack to drain! And wizards land touch attacks with their pitiful BAB all the time!

Thanks! I'm a go spectre swarm and have a mithril buckler of undead controlling. Can't believe I missed the touch!

[Blackhawk748]

Nice! You seem to know what you're talking about. From reading your post I just realized wraiths only need a TOUCH attack to drain! And wizards land touch attacks with their pitiful BAB all the time!

Thanks! I'm a go spectre swarm and have a mithril buckler of undead controlling. Can't believe I missed the touch!

Glad i could help, as a general rule Incoporeal undead are usually pretty decent, if squishy. This is solved by making them out of High HD things so they have higher HD (i may be WAAAAAY off on this as i rarely use create undead or its greater counterpart, i usually stick to zombie tarpit.)

[Rijan_Sai]

Don't know if this would help you, but I came across this post (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?215467-why-are-quot-create-undead-quot-and-quot-control-undead-quot-so-awful&p=3971311&viewfull=1#post3971311) a while back while trying to research various aspects of Create Undead. It might be worth seeing if your DM would allow you to use this, or research it as a new spell.

You would have to adjust when you can create the "higher level" undead, but I think something like:

Actually, after giving it some thought, Animate Dead is a 4th level spell; perhaps the best way would be to combine the two three into one spell, with the following changes:

CL | Undead
7-8 | Ghoul
9-10 | Ghast
11-13 | Mummy
14+ | Mohrg

This has the effect of having the minimum CL that you can create the undead be CR+6; both your Animated skeletons and zombies, and your Created creatures share the same HD cap, are completely under your control, s/z's require a black onyx worth 25gp/HD, while the g/g/m/m's require 50gp/HD, and all creatures that could do so naturally lose any form of "create spawn". (Ghouls and Ghasts would keep Ghoul Fever, it just would not cause a creature killed by it to raise as a ghoul.)

All "natural" forming monsters, (those that come into being without the Create Undead spell,) would of course keep "create spawn." (I'm pretty sure Libris Mortis has guidelines for undead being created "naturally," that is, without Create Undead.)

As for Create Greater Undead, I'm guessing that without the "create spawn" ability, they are somewhat less dangerous. Still, to reflect the original's high spell level, perhaps:

CL | Undead
11-12 | Shadow
13-14 | Wraith
15-18 | Spectre
19+ | Devourer

Or, CL=CR+8.

These numbers are somewhat arbitrary, given that Create Undead is a 6th level spell and CGU is an 8th. That's where I took the new Caster Level numbers from...I have no idea how this would work balance-wise, and since CGU was brought in somewhat as an afterthought, perhaps it might be necessary to bring the spell up to 5th level.

Just some ideas I'm throwing out at midnight.

[Venger]

Glad i could help, as a general rule Incoporeal undead are usually pretty decent, if squishy. This is solved by making them out of High HD things so they have higher HD (i may be WAAAAAY off on this as i rarely use create undead or its greater counterpart, i usually stick to zombie tarpit.)

The rules do not work that way.

If I kill a lvl 20 monk or something by casting "Mordenkainen's Stiff Breeze" and desecrate his corpse with CGU, he'll still animate as a 3HD shadow same as everybody else. Your HD do not stay with you when you are reanimated as an undead creature.

[Blackhawk748]

The rules do not work that way.

If I kill a lvl 20 monk or something by casting "Mordenkainen's Stiff Breeze" and desecrate his corpse with CGU, he'll still animate as a 3HD shadow same as everybody else. Your HD do not stay with you when you are reanimated as an undead creature.

Probably should have specified, high Racial Hit Die creatures as they keep their HD, class levels are obviously lost.

[Venger]

Probably should have specified, high Racial Hit Die creatures as they keep their HD, class levels are obviously lost.

That is still irrelevant.

If I kill a human commoner (1HD) he will rise as a 3HD shadow.
If I do the same to a constrictor naga (4HD) he will rise as a 3HD shadow.

no HD of any kind, racial or derived from levels will in any way affect what kind of undead is created via create undead/create greater undead the same way RHD determine the amount of HD for zombies/skels.

[Blackhawk748]

That is still irrelevant.

If I kill a human commoner (1HD) he will rise as a 3HD shadow.
If I do the same to a constrictor naga (4HD) he will rise as a 3HD shadow.

no HD of any kind, racial or derived from levels will in any way affect what kind of undead is created via create undead/create greater undead the same way RHD determine the amount of HD for zombies/skels.

Huh, well i learned something new today, but how do you get greater shadows then?

[icefractal]

Shadow isn't a template, it's just a monster. What the corpse was before has no effect on its stats.

However, Shadows are still awesome. Just store them in a Bag of Holding, have them fly out and drain things to death as needed. Their low HP don't matter if they're not around to be zapped.

This also leads us to a fun doomsday device. Get a Bag of Holding, fill it with incorporeal undead. Hundreds or thousands of them, don't worry about keeping them under your control once they're inside (you'll need a way to avoid them flying out when you open it to let new ones inside - I suggest using Wraiths and opening it in sunlight). Take the Bag to the city you want gone, turn it inside out, teleport away. Instant undead apocalypse. :smallbiggrin:

[Venger]

Huh, well i learned something new today, but how do you get greater shadows then?

randomly encountering one in the tall grass and rebuking, or using the command/control undead spells or similar effects. there is no way by the RAW for PCs to simply create one. even master of shrouds, themed around shadows and similar creatures, can merely summon them.

[Blackhawk748]

randomly encountering one in the tall grass and rebuking, or using the command/control undead spells or similar effects. there is no way by the RAW for PCs to simply create one. even master of shrouds, themed around shadows and similar creatures, can merely summon them.

Weird, but then again this is DnD and i shouldnt be surprised by this.

[Coidzor]

a. At levels 15-17 are mummies useful?

Not really at that level. Being able to apply the Mummified template instead, especially to creatures with class levels can be useful, especially for creatures with intelligences and setups where you wouldn't want to make them Dread Warriors.


b. At levels 18+ are mohrgs useful?

At that point you should have a way to turn into a Mohrg yourself and kill things to create spawn if you want zombies. Which is the only real use Mohrgs would have. I don't even think they're able to make Dragon Zombies though.


c. At levels 16th-17th are wraiths useful?

Potentially as scouts either at night or indoors/underground away from sunlight since they're fairly intelligent and incorporeal with a not-bad flight speed.

It could be amusing to send a few to harass someone by making all of their animals stampede, but at this level it's not really all that relevant even if you stampede a megaherd of cattle over something. I suppose you could stampede a bunch of cattle at the Tarrasque for the lulz so that it's busy playing Hungry Hungry Hippo instead of worrying about its impending demise.


d. At levels 18th-19th are spectres useful?

Spectres are just wraiths with a better attack and faster flight for your purposes. If you have a boatload of Spectres and take down your foes immunity to negative levels, then, yeah, bam, they're toast.


e. At level 20 are devourers useful?

Wish is on the table at that point, so being able to destroy a soul or capture it so that it's not able to be freed save by Wish, Miracle, or Limited Wish is less useful. Destroying souls can still be somewhat useful though, and it does provide a basically endless supply of castings of lesser planar ally, so that's something you could work with. And the castings of lesser planar ally can give it something to eat to power more SLAs in a vicious cycle. It also has control undead ad nauseum with a base DC of 20, but at this point that shouldn't really be useful enough to make it a decent lieutenant.

[RoboEmperor]

Yeah I've been meaning to ask, what happens when a devourer casts lesser planar ally?
1. Got no money to pay the ally with
2. Got no deity to send him the ally
3. What monster would pop out?

[Abd al-Azrad]

It might be dumb to say, but I'd suggest these spells make for pretty scary scrolls. Turn your fellow PCs into Bone creatures, whip out a few powerful new NPCs under your (theoretical) control, etc. The casting lasts forever, so if you can hold onto the created monster, it can give you access to a load of powerful abilities as early as you can boost your UMD up to acceptable levels.

[Venger]

It might be dumb to say, but I'd suggest these spells make for pretty scary scrolls. Turn your fellow PCs into Bone creatures, whip out a few powerful new NPCs under your (theoretical) control, etc. The casting lasts forever, so if you can hold onto the created monster, it can give you access to a load of powerful abilities as early as you can boost your UMD up to acceptable levels.

Bone and Corpse creatures, unlike the other undead via create undead, keep all their class levels and stuff.

I wouldn't suggest using it on your friends though. As LA--, they'll never gain experience again.

[Coidzor]

Yeah I've been meaning to ask, what happens when a devourer casts lesser planar ally?
1. Got no money to pay the ally with
2. Got no deity to send him the ally
3. What monster would pop out?

1. ???
2&3. Treat like a cleric of a cause mirroring its ethos or as a cleric of its alignment, I suppose. So, evil, destructive, murderous, predatory outsiders.

[RoboEmperor]

1. ???

Unlike planar binding, planar ally has a fixed gold cost and XP cost requirement. I understand that because this is a spell-like ability it can ignore that but... fluff wise its hard to understand XD. Why would anyone help a ghost for free? After all it's a called creature not a summoned one.

[Venger]

Unlike planar binding, planar ally has a fixed gold cost and XP cost requirement. I understand that because this is a spell-like ability it can ignore that but... fluff wise its hard to understand XD. Why would anyone help a ghost for free? After all it's a called creature not a summoned one.

devourer can cast LPA 1/round as a sla?

man, DMs just like to play undead dumb, don't they?

anyway, RAW it works fine since as you said it's a SLA, so he doesn't have to pay them anything.

if you want a fluff explanation that makes sense, then pretend that he's not "really" calling the monsters from carceri or whatever, but he's using the raw soul energy of the guy trapped in his tummy to create a hard-light/ectoplasm/shadow/taffy/etc facsimile of whatever monster that functions like it. perhaps they're undead-looking (without the corresponding statboosts of course) or they have some of the physical characteristics of the trapped soul (e.g. he summons a hell hound and it has the eyes of the trapped soul and some of its general facial characteristics) if you want to play up the horror vibe and try to make the devourer actually frighten your players.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, the gold cost in planar ally isn't actually a material component of the spell so having it as a SLA doesn't get you around it. If you can't provide the necessary recompense then the called creature has no reason to act as you wish and can simply leave via the ability to return from whence it came granted by all calling spells.

[Venger]

Actually, the gold cost in planar ally isn't actually a material component of the spell so having it as a SLA doesn't get you around it. If you can't provide the necessary recompense then the called creature has no reason to act as you wish and can simply leave via the ability to return from whence it came granted by all calling spells.

So in effect, devourer can't actually use LPA.

that's hilarious.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So in effect, devourer can't actually use LPA.

that's hilarious.

Well, the called creature -could- decide that the thing it's being asked to do is in line with its own interests or amusement and wave the cost but that's a DM adjudication thing.

[Venger]

Well, the called creature -could- decide that the thing it's being asked to do is in line with its own interests or amusement and wave the cost but that's a DM adjudication thing.

if he opens the door to that through a player or DM-controlled devourer, players will be well within their rights to try to do that all the time.

[Blackhawk748]

It could summon a demon and offer the souls of anything it kills. Basically the payment is letting it loose.

[Venger]

It could summon a demon and offer the souls of anything it kills. Basically the payment is letting it loose.

well then, players could say "I'll do that too" and have quite the leg to stand on. free plan allies for everyone!

http://hotmeme.net/media/i/b/a/xUW-you-get-a-planar-ally-you-get-a-planar-ally-everbody-gets-a-planar.jpg

[Blackhawk748]

well then, players could say "I'll do that too" and have quite the leg to stand on. free plan allies for everyone!

Do your PCs regularly summon demons? I mean i can see this in an Evil party, but how could a good party make that deal and still be good?

Also how will the party know what the deal was? The Devourer would probably have done this pre combat, so all they know is is that there is a demon and a Devourer. Personally that sounds like a horrifying fight.

[Kelb_Panthera]

if he opens the door to that through a player or DM-controlled devourer, players will be well within their rights to try to do that all the time.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Planar ally (and binding for that matter) brings in an NPC to do your bidding after you do a bit of dealing. If it's in the NPC's interest to offer a discount, or even waive whatever rewards they might otherwise ask for, then there's no reason not to allow such things. We're pretty firmly in DM adjudication territory here anyway so it's not at all odd to expect a DM to limit or allow such things on a case-by-case basis.

[Venger]

Do your PCs regularly summon demons? I mean i can see this in an Evil party, but how could a good party make that deal and still be good?

Also how will the party know what the deal was? The Devourer would probably have done this pre combat, so all they know is is that there is a demon and a Devourer. Personally that sounds like a horrifying fight.

of course they do, demons are awesome. they have all kinds of cool SLAs and stuff.

it's called "not being a cleric." wizards, sorcerers, and the like, can cast [Evil] spells without restriction.

they'd have made their knowledge check to learn about what superpowers he has, or presumably just metagamed like normal people since he's an iconic core monster and everyone knows what powers he has.


You say that like it's a bad thing.

Planar ally (and binding for that matter) brings in an NPC to do your bidding after you do a bit of dealing. If it's in the NPC's interest to offer a discount, or even waive whatever rewards they might otherwise ask for, then there's no reason not to allow such things. We're pretty firmly in DM adjudication territory here anyway so it's not at all odd to expect a DM to limit or allow such things on a case-by-case basis.

I just mean it would be unfair for a DM to say "I can cast PAs with no cost, but you can't, so suck on that, guys" and it might annoy players.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I just mean it would be unfair for a DM to say "I can cast PAs with no cost, but you can't, so suck on that, guys" and it might annoy players.

Fair enough. FWIW, calling a demon to the material and saying "slaughter those guys and you can hang in the material plane as long as you like" is a pretty sweet deal for the demon and a hell of an emergency move for a devourer to make. Roaming the material and slaughtering whoever it pleases is something most demons are eager to do anyway.

As blackhawk points out, this isn't necessarily a deal that PC's would be quick to choose.

[Venger]

Fair enough. FWIW, calling a demon to the material and saying "slaughter those guys and you can hang in the material plane as long as you like" is a pretty sweet deal for the demon and a hell of an emergency move for a devourer to make. Roaming the material and slaughtering whoever it pleases is something most demons are eager to do anyway.

As blackhawk points out, this isn't necessarily a deal that PC's would be quick to choose.

the PCs could just stab him in the back once he was done doing all their grunt work for them. he'd probaby be decently softened up from whatever monsters he'd fought, and since it was a calling effect, he'd be dead-dead and not just respawning back at base immediately, so he wouldn't be their problem for at least another 99 years.

[Blackhawk748]

of course they do, demons are awesome. they have all kinds of cool SLAs and stuff.

it's called "not being a cleric." wizards, sorcerers, and the like, can cast [Evil] spells without restriction.

they'd have made their knowledge check to learn about what superpowers he has, or presumably just metagamed like normal people since he's an iconic core monster and everyone knows what powers he has.

I wasnt even talking about Spell Tags (which is something i generally forget about) i meant that the deal itself is fairly questionable. Now if the party backstabs him when hes done, thats a bit different. Still they didnt exactly get a "free" planar ally, they needed to do a fight they didnt have too.

[Kelb_Panthera]

the PCs could just stab him in the back once he was done doing all their grunt work for them. he'd probaby be decently softened up from whatever monsters he'd fought, and since it was a calling effect, he'd be dead-dead and not just respawning back at base immediately, so he wouldn't be their problem for at least another 99 years.

True enough but that's changing the fight, not bypassing it. That's fine. Besides, if the demon sees that he's going to lose the fight he can just duck out with the ability to return home from being called and nurse his brand new grudge.

[Venger]

I wasnt even talking about Spell Tags (which is something i generally forget about) i meant that the deal itself is fairly questionable. Now if the party backstabs him when hes done, thats a bit different. Still they didnt exactly get a "free" planar ally, they needed to do a fight they didnt have too.

oh, you mean fluff stuff? well, that's just DM's pleasure whether he wants to force alignments on your character or not. personally, I don't really care, summons are summons, they're just weapons you point at the enemy and the act of using them itself like with any weapon is morally neutral.


True enough but that's changing the fight, not bypassing it. That's fine. Besides, if the demon sees that he's going to lose the fight he can just duck out with the ability to return home from being called and nurse his brand new grudge.

either way: free xp!

[Kelb_Panthera]

either way: free xp!

Hardly. It's a defered cost but the DM almost certainly -will- come to call on that, now less tangible, debt. :sabine:

[Venger]

Hardly. It's a defered cost but the DM almost certainly -will- come to call on that, now less tangible, debt. :sabine:

sounds like fun to me!

[RoboEmperor]

I wouldn't mind paying the gold cost for LPA, if LPA had any decent monsters to summon at level 20, and if I had any control on what monster appears. Main reason number 2 of why I don't play clerics is because of planar ally. Main reason number 1 is forgotten realm's restriction on forcing clerics to beg for spells and sell their souls to some god. Er... donate their souls to some god.

[Venger]

I wouldn't mind paying the gold cost for LPA, if LPA had any decent monsters to summon at level 20, and if I had any control on what monster appears. Main reason number 2 of why I don't play clerics is because of planar ally. Main reason number 1 is forgotten realm's restriction on forcing clerics to beg for spells and sell their souls to some god. Er... donate their souls to some god.

you could just ignore them or play in a good setting, like eberron where that isn't a thing

[Kelb_Panthera]

I wouldn't mind paying the gold cost for LPA, if LPA had any decent monsters to summon at level 20, and if I had any control on what monster appears. Main reason number 2 of why I don't play clerics is because of planar ally. Main reason number 1 is forgotten realm's restriction on forcing clerics to beg for spells and sell their souls to some god. Er... donate their souls to some god.

Have you actually read what happens to souls that don't have a patron deity in that setting? It's not good. Planar Ally is definitely a weaker choice than planar binding but clerics can get both without having to jump through too many hoops but you -can- request a particular creature when you cast the spell so you're not left with something completely random unless your DM is a dink.

[hamishspence]

Shadow isn't a template, it's just a monster. What the corpse was before has no effect on its stats.

I think there is a Shadow Creature template somewhere though (Savage Species or maybe Dragon issue 300). Would be very much "DM's discretion" to allow one to use these templates when casting spells, though.

[Milo v3]

I think there is a Shadow Creature template somewhere though (Savage Species or maybe Dragon issue 300). Would be very much "DM's discretion" to allow one to use these templates when casting spells, though.

I do specifically remember a Shadow (undead-based template) Kobold example creature somewhere... looked pretty cool... Hmm... Wonder if you can have a Shadow Dragonwrought (Shadow Dragon) Kobold Shadow using the two different shadow creature templates.

Edit: Damn it was a kobold wraith.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I think there is a Shadow Creature template somewhere though (Savage Species or maybe Dragon issue 300). Would be very much "DM's discretion" to allow one to use these templates when casting spells, though.

Umbral Creature from Savage Species is a shadow template.

[hamishspence]

The Dragon 300 templates are a bit more "applicable" than the SS ones. Dragon's wight template, for example, can be applied to various creature types, but SS's is more restricted.