Invocation conundrum....

[charlesk]

I'm playing a Warlock 3 / Bard 1 currently, with the rest of my levels planned to be in Bard. Character role is support / utility; though he can dish out decent damage with Eldritch Blast, his backstory means he prefers a more "behind the scenes" approach (simplifying things here). So lots of buffing, healing, some stealth and manipulation, and also playing the party 'face' to some extent.

Anyway, I was going to go with Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast as my invocations, since they seem so obviously useful with EB. But I also really love the idea of having Devil's Sight... even though it is slightly redundant with my half-elf's darkvision, in combination with the Darkness spell it seems very powerful for either offense or defense. Furthermore, my familiar is an imp, which also has Devil's Sight.

I'd have to give up either AB or RB to take this. And my concerns are: first, that the Darkness + Devil's Sight combo might be situational; second, I can only do it a handful of times a day (at best); third, even if me and my familiar can see in a Darkness spell, none of the rest of the party can.

(And yes I know AB and RB are both really offensive and not consistent with a utility role, but there's a backstory reason why he would have some offensive invocations before he switched to Bard.)

Thoughts? :)

[Pandiano]

Well, from personal experience I second the Devil's Sight choice, from a utility standpoint.
Note, that the invocation does not grant darkvision. It allows you to see "normal" in darkness, so no disadvantage on perception checks in darkness, as darkvision would cause. That +double range makes ist awesome.
The combo with the darkness spell is an added plus, but more useful to a melee char.

[Easy_Lee]

Just going off of the character description, I think it would be reasonable to give up agonizing blast for devil's sight. If you're less concerned with damage, then being able to push mobs into hazards or away from allies may be more beneficial.

[Mandrake]

If you are so concerned with the way you build your character and flesh him out, of course you should replace it! The mechanical difference is minor compared to roleplaying possibilities you look for. Also, if it is the damage your Warlock used to have, I would then take Agonizing Blast to make it even more related, though Easy_Lee is right about usefulness.

[charlesk]

Thanks for the replies. It's a tough choice.

I know both Devil's Sight and RB are more "useful". But I like having AB as a fallback when I really do need to do damage.. because EB is about the only practical way this character has of beating up baddies. I also have an insanely high Cha score due and so it's a lot of damage to give up... potentially 10 extra damage a round at level 5.

Devil's Sight does seem amazingly useful... even without the Darkness gimmick. I like the thought of being able to use Darkness as a "reset" in a combat gone wrong... cast it on myself, wade into a combat gone bad, and suddenly only me and my familiar can see anything. But I was considering I might be able to just use Darkeness with my familiar's Devil's Sight to do things like deliver touch spells. And I can only cast it a couple of times a rest.

The main problem I am having is figuring out Repelling Blast.. just how useful is this really? It seems like in some situations it could be amazing -- archer on a parapet gets the shock of his life, or in combination with spells that contain difficult terrain. But in regular combat it doesn't seem terribly useful.

What are people's experiences using it?

[charcoalninja]

Thanks for the replies. It's a tough choice.

I know both Devil's Sight and RB are more "useful". But I like having AB as a fallback when I really do need to do damage.. because EB is about the only practical way this character has of beating up baddies. I also have an insanely high Cha score due and so it's a lot of damage to give up... potentially 10 extra damage a round at level 5.

Devil's Sight does seem amazingly useful... even without the Darkness gimmick. I like the thought of being able to use Darkness as a "reset" in a combat gone wrong... cast it on myself, wade into a combat gone bad, and suddenly only me and my familiar can see anything. But I was considering I might be able to just use Darkeness with my familiar's Devil's Sight to do things like deliver touch spells. And I can only cast it a couple of times a rest.

The main problem I am having is figuring out Repelling Blast.. just how useful is this really? It seems like in some situations it could be amazing -- archer on a parapet gets the shock of his life, or in combination with spells that contain difficult terrain. But in regular combat it doesn't seem terribly useful.

What are people's experiences using it?

Repellig blast is really useful for a lot of things, knock objects out of people's hands, knocking horses into ditches during a chase, dismounting riders, knocking flying creatures into walls, etc. combined with Warcaster you can EB with an opportunity attack and bounce the guy into the reach of another character meanig that if the mob continues it's movement plan it provokes again.

Blasting people and objects into other people and objects has way too much potential hillarity to pass up IMO. Besides, with all your utility and buffing you're going to make the party deal damage like crazy so the personal loss of YOUR damage isn't going to be a big deal IMO.

Readying an action to EB a divin dragon the moment it triggers its beath weapon to push it out of range and thus wasting the attack could prevent hundreds of damage to the party as another example.

I'd drop AB and take Devil's sight. Auto pushing people from 120' away in darkness when they can't see you to fight back is amazing.

[charlesk]

Thanks for the reply. I have a strange feeling my DM is going to start house-ruling RB if I start using it to push dragons around, and I'd have a hard time arguing with him to be honest. :)

The thing I don't like about Darkness aside from the need to use one of my few slots is that the radius is very small. I can't envelop myself and a distant target.. or is the point just to make it so I can see them and they can't see me?

It's hard to give up AB but it is the least interesting of the three...

On the other hand, I am also thinking I might be able to use my familiar to get much of the Devil's Sight benefits.. since it has that ability and I can see through its eyes. Just have it next to me, cast Darkness on myself, look through its eyes. Not quite as good as having it myself, but pretty close...

[JoeJ]

Thanks for the reply. I have a strange feeling my DM is going to start house-ruling RB if I start using it to push dragons around, and I'd have a hard time arguing with him to be honest. :)

Why wouldn't Repelling Blast work on dragons?

[Easy_Lee]

Why wouldn't Repelling Blast work on dragons?

Some people feel it's too powerful because there's no save. I think that way of thinking is silly because you have to land the attack roll, meaning that is the save.

[JoeJ]

Some people feel it's too powerful because there's no save. I think that way of thinking is silly because you have to land the attack roll, meaning that is the save.

I agree that there doesn't need to be a save when there's an attack roll. But in any case, why would it work differently on a dragon than on anything else?

[Easy_Lee]

I agree that there doesn't need to be a save when there's an attack roll. But in any case, why would it work differently on a dragon than on anything else?

Ah, I see what you're saying. I've seen some debate as to whether there should be a size limit, or reduced / enhanced effectiveness based on size. If we assume large mobs weigh more than small mobs (as in large means more mass), then it doesn't make sense for the same amount of force to push both the same distance. A larger mob shouldn't be pushed as far as a smaller one, in that case. I've seen it proposed for DMs to add or subtract 5' of push per size category.

However, the way I reason it, force damage is pure magical energy, not to be confused with sonic damage like a concussive explosion might deal. It's pushing the target in a magical way, latching onto the magical essence extending into the astral plane to push the target. I would assume that if one could see it, it would look something like a radiating silhouette of magic exactly matching the target's size, pushing them unerringly as long as it hits. It doesn't hurt that my interpretation agrees with RAW; anyone who changes it is messing with explicit rules.

[MaxWilson]

Thanks for the reply. I have a strange feeling my DM is going to start house-ruling RB if I start using it to push dragons around, and I'd have a hard time arguing with him to be honest. :)

The thing I don't like about Darkness aside from the need to use one of my few slots is that the radius is very small. I can't envelop myself and a distant target.. or is the point just to make it so I can see them and they can't see me?

You don't need to envelope the target, just cast it on yourself. (Specifically, on an object that you can then carry with you.)

In general, Repelling Blast is useful to the extent that you have interesting terrain features to interact with/push people into. Stinking Clouds, Walls of Fire, cliff edges, etc. If your party-mates aren't in the habit of producing such things, you'll have to produce them yourself, but overall I think Repelling is still likely to be more fun than Devil's Sight. It's not as though you can't play fun tricks with (regular, non-magical) darkness, such as illuminating only your enemies in Faerie Fire and shooting from more than 60' away (where darkvision doesn't reach). If you can get your DM to (quite reasonably rule) that this would let you see them and them not see you, you'll get all the fun of Devil's Sight but you won't have to give up Repelling for it.

[Easy_Lee]

Casting darkness on your imp may be an effective tactic, since the imp can move the darkness where it needs to be round by round.

[Safety Sword]

The only problem with the dragon pushing scenario is whether you would be able to use it at exactly the correct range on a dragon who is diving at you. That's a reality problem, not a game problem.

Game mechanics where everything is in a 5 ft block and turn based combat help you a lot here :)

It's probably not unreasonable to house rule it to work only on certain sized creatures. It's something you need to decide on before someone bases their entire character on it.

[charlesk]

5e is very much based on DM interpretation and ours generally uses a "common sense" approach that I think is fair and reasonable.. by allowing or disallowing things based on whether they are fair and reasonable. This has led to certain accomodations in favor of the players, and certain "nerfings", few of which I've had much cause to argue with.

In this case, I think it's entirely fair and reasonable to rule that a level 0 spell doesn't muster enough energy to move an enormous creature 10' in a round.. much less 40'! There are plenty of spells with size restrictions, after all, and the same goes with things like the shove action.

Meanwhile last night we played and had an encounter where I learned I overestimated the utility of my familiar's Devil's Sight.. I never really took into account what would happen if I were in the Darkness sphere, not adjacent to the familiar (which is wearing a chain that I targeted the spell on), and wanted to cast a targeted spell. It's not really covered in the rules and his ruling was that it would be nearly impossible for me to "triangulate" a targeted spell with my hand in one place and my "eyes" in another. We agreed that if the familiar and I were in the same square that would be different, but my guess is that it would be a roll with disadvantage. Which again makes sense for a targeted ray spell like Eldritch Blast (not for something that just targets a broad area of effect). So basically I can use my familiar's eyes but only if I stay right next to it. Having "real" Devil's Sight would have been infinitely more useful in this particular fight.

This was an unusual encounter though.. we were being attacked by flying creatures and I cast the Darkness primarily for the sake of NPCs we were with and were supposed to be protecting. The problem was every time *I* stepped out of the Darkness zone I got whacked... they were doing "fly-by" attacks pretty much at will, and also because they were flying, Repelling Blast was of limited usefulness. My guess is that in a more typical encounter I would probably only use Darkness as a last resort to "reset" a battle gone wrong.. since even if I did have Devil's Sight, none of the rest of the party does. And I did use EB a lot because a couple of party members had no effective ranged attacks, and the AB bonus was quite helpful (and will be more so at level 5!) So I guess we'll see how this goes.

[silveralen]

Bard has so many utility abilities as is, I'd personally have gone with AB like you did. Darkness is a nice idea and all, but overall is far too much of a one trick pony thing to give up your main/only consistent damage.

[Slipperychicken]

Thoughts? :)

If it was me, I'd probably take eldritch sight (the detect magic one) and agonizing blast. Repelling blast would make me feel like a munchkin since it doesn't allow a save or make allowances for target size or strength, and EB+agonizing blast already makes them competitive with damage.

Keeping detect magic up all the time would let you find magic traps, illusion'd NPCs and spellcasters (and pinpoint invisible ones with just an action), locate mcguffins, and quickly identify magic treasure. Most casters can do it as a ritual, but there are plenty of situations where you wouldn't want to spend 10 minutes casting it.

[Yagyujubei]

dunno if this has been said yet since there was too much textwall for me to read it all, but using darkness doesn't hinder your part in a battle as far as attacking goes since the advantage and disadvantage caused by the darkness would wash eachother out and people aside from you and anyone else able to see in magical darkness would just roll as normal.

that said devils sight is fricking incredible and I recommend it aside from seeing in magical darkness, having 120 foot vision instead of 60 gives you advantage over most everything you'll encounter since you'll see them before they see you. Also, you can cast darkness in your bard slots if you need to so you shouldn't worry about casting limitations on it.

second, as a bard you have so much control that getting RB is pretty redundant as well. Yeah the push is nice, but bard gets a hundred other spells that can keep enemies away from him.

A note on the Imp though, is that you could perceive everything through your Imps eyes gaining devils sight that way, but as soon as it died you would be SoL.

[MaxWilson]

second, as a bard you have so much control that getting RB is pretty redundant as well. Yeah the push is nice, but bard gets a hundred other spells that can keep enemies away from him.

But you only get 22 spells a day (IIRC) even at 20th level. Having an at-will push effect that doesn't cost a spell slot can be very nice for eking out those spell slots. Push enemies through Walls of Fire, into Stinking Cloud, etc.

[JoeJ]

5e is very much based on DM interpretation and ours generally uses a "common sense" approach that I think is fair and reasonable.. by allowing or disallowing things based on whether they are fair and reasonable. This has led to certain accomodations in favor of the players, and certain "nerfings", few of which I've had much cause to argue with.

In this case, I think it's entirely fair and reasonable to rule that a level 0 spell doesn't muster enough energy to move an enormous creature 10' in a round.. much less 40'! There are plenty of spells with size restrictions, after all, and the same goes with things like the shove action.

The fact that there are spells with size restriction is itself a good argument that RB should work on dragons: if it was supposed to have a size limit, that fact would have been included in the description.

If RB just applied a physical force, then light things should move further than heavy things instead of any target being moved 10'. As a magical force, however, the effect doesn't have to be related to size or mass at all. In the same way that a Fly spell has exactly the same effect on a mouse as on a T-Rex (assuming that they're both willing), RB moves a creature of any size the same distance.

tl;dr: It's magic. Size matters not.

[charlesk]

That's a reasonable interpretation. So is mine.

From a game power perspective, however, being able to push dragons around at will up to 40' a round (or 80' or more with sorcerer meta shenanigans?) is pretty broken.

So like I said.. I'm not going to abuse this, because if I do, he will nerf it, and I will have little in the way of counter-argument because we don't use "RAW is the holy law" in our campaign.

[Person_Man]

I personally would just take Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast.

Lots of DMs I know don't pay much attention to the illumination rules. Even if they do, plenty of races offer Darkvision. Plenty of classes can also cast Darkvision. (Including the Bard, since you can choose a limited number of spells from any list. Or you can just ask an ally to cast it on you). Bards also (eventually) get True Seeing spell by default. And if that still doesn't meet your needs, then just suck it up and carry a torch around and drop it on the ground in front of you when combat starts.

Magical Darkness is really a corner case unless you yourself are casting it. And even then, so much depends on your DMs interpretation and the other party members that you probably won't be able to use the tactic consistently. Whereas you're highly likely to be using Eldritch Blast in pretty much every combat.

[Slipperychicken]

I personally would just take Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast.

Lots of DMs I know don't pay much attention to the illumination rules. Even if they do, plenty of races offer Darkvision. Plenty of classes can also cast Darkvision. (Including the Bard, since you can choose a limited number of spells from any list. Or you can just ask an ally to cast it on you). Bards also (eventually) get True Seeing spell by default. And if that still doesn't meet your needs, then just suck it up and carry a torch around and drop it on the ground in front of you when combat starts.

Magical Darkness is really a corner case unless you yourself are casting it. And even then, so much depends on your DMs interpretation and the other party members that you probably won't be able to use the tactic consistently. Whereas you're highly likely to be using Eldritch Blast in pretty much every combat.

These are my thoughts exactly regarding the darkness one. Even at night, my DM rarely bothers with illumination. Either that, or there's enough light to go around, magical or otherwise.

[Person_Man]

Either that, or there's enough light to go around, magical or otherwise.

Yeah, that reminds me about another issue. Even if the DM does pay attention to the illumination rules, if ANY of the players lacks access Darkvision, that player is probably going to use a torch or magical Light, and thus reveal the location of your party to enemies that do. So again, the usefulness of Devil's Sight is somewhat limited unless the entire party is optimized around its use.

[Easy_Lee]

Yeah, that reminds me about another issue. Even if the DM does pay attention to the illumination rules, if ANY of the players lacks access Darkvision, that player is probably going to use a torch or magical Light, and thus reveal the location of your party to enemies that do. So again, the usefulness of Devil's Sight is somewhat limited unless the entire party is optimized around its use.

Seems the general concensus is that devil's sight, while potentially very useful, is situational and depends on the DM. I tend to agree with that. Agonizing blast may be the overall most useful.

[charlesk]

Not that I disagree with all of the points made about the relative usefulness of these invocations, but note that Darkness is "magical darkness". It specifically says that darkvision doesn't work in it, and a torch won't have any effect either. A high-level light-creating spell would, though.

This char already has darkvision (another strike against Devil's Sight for this particular PC). The use of Darkness with Devil's Sight is meant to give an "I see you but you don't see me" sort of advantage. But again, it's not "party-friendly", for the reasons mentioned above.

(In fact, one player got annoyed when I used it the other day.. but my priority was saving the NPCs, not making his life easy.)

[Abithrios]

That's a reasonable interpretation. So is mine.

From a game power perspective, however, being able to push dragons around at will up to 40' a round (or 80' or more with sorcerer meta shenanigans?) is pretty broken.

So like I said.. I'm not going to abuse this, because if I do, he will nerf it, and I will have little in the way of counter-argument because we don't use "RAW is the holy law" in our campaign.

One thing to keep in mind is that it is not an automatic push. It is contingent on the ray not simply bouncing off the dragon's scaly hide. Even at level 20, you only have a 50% chance of pushing an ancient red dragon with each ray. Repelling blast does not require a save for the same reason that shove does not require an attack roll--it is too unreliable in a system with bounded accuracy.

[charlesk]

Good point. I guess we'll see what the "balance of power" looks like when dragons become an actual issue. :)