3.5 Debuffer Cleric?

[HolyCouncilMagi]

What are good spells and builds for a Cleric that focuses on debuffing enemies, rather than buffing or kicking the crap out of stuff or doing other things Clerics normally do? So far it looks like the Cleric debuffs are almost all really bad, but then again I've only looked at the SRD so far in terms of spells, and am only partway done sifting through the Spell Compendium. Is there a way to make a debuffer Cleric viable?

[Venger]

as always, check out the handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0) it basically lays stuff out for you.

clerics have tons of spells in every splat, being the most well-supported class outside of wizard. once you're done the spc, check out complete champion, as that has some new stuff. spell compendium has the bulk of everything else on the cleric list, including complete divine, so there's no real need to check that. that should give you a good start if you're set on debuffing.

[Know(Nothing)]

I mention this a little too much, but Pronouncement of Fate from Heroes of Horror is a fantastic spell. Look it up when you get a chance, you'll be happy you did.

[Venger]

I mention this a little too much, but Pronouncement of Fate from Heroes of Horror is a fantastic spell. Look it up when you get a chance, you'll be happy you did.

I love that spell so much. Cas is my moose-headed homeboy.

Really, the spite domain as a whole's pretty awesome. "pact of return" is one of my favorite spells.

[Curmudgeon]

Is there a way to make a debuffer Cleric viable?
The granted power of the Inquisition domain is a +4 bonus on dispel checks, which happens after the caster level maximum in Dispel Magic or whatever. Add a Dispelling Cord (Magic Item Compendium, page 94) for another +2 to your check.

Duelward (Spell Compendium, pages 74-75) is very handy to have in case an opponent has a Spellsword or other protection against a targeted dispel. As a Cleric, you'd need the Spell domain and Greater Anyspell to prepare this, but you could use Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell to make it last all day until needed.

[nedz]

The Inquisition domain can be got for free with the Church Inquisitor PrC (Complete Divine p26) which you should be able to enter at level 6 — right after Dispel Magic comes online.

[Venger]

The Inquisition domain can be got for free with the Church Inquisitor PrC (Complete Divine p26) which you should be able to enter at level 6 — right after Dispel Magic comes online.

why wait til 6? you can enter church inquisitor at 4. help boost your save at low lvls and get evildar to save on spell slots.

[Fax Celestis]

The granted power of the Inquisition domain is a +4 bonus on dispel checks, which happens after the caster level maximum in Dispel Magic or whatever. Add a Dispelling Cord (Magic Item Compendium, page 94) for another +2 to your check.

Duelward (Spell Compendium, pages 74-75) is very handy to have in case an opponent has a Spellsword or other protection against a targeted dispel. As a Cleric, you'd need the Spell domain and Greater Anyspell to prepare this, but you could use Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell to make it last all day until needed.

Or a one level wizard or chameleon dip with the Protection, Magic, or Spell domains and the Customize Domain feat.

[Gullintanni]

The granted power of the Inquisition domain is a +4 bonus on dispel checks, which happens after the caster level maximum in Dispel Magic or whatever. Add a Dispelling Cord (Magic Item Compendium, page 94) for another +2 to your check.


Grab Divine Defiance, and the Spontaneous Domain Casting ACF. Key it to the Magic domain. This allows you to convert spell slots to Dispel Magic, which, when combined with Divine Defiance, allows immediate action counterspells against other casters. Paired with the Inquisition domain, you're great at locking down other casters.

The Divine Magician ACF allows you to trade one domain for a domain composed of Divinations, Necromancies and Abjurations off of the Sor/Wiz list. This opens up a lot of great negative energy Debuffs, such as Enervate. I also like Ray of Exhaustion here. Add Split Ray and you're basically delivering Exhaustion with no save. This trick works well if you're a Cloistered Cleric trading away your Knowledge Domain (since you're a debuffer cleric, what do you need with Knowledge Devotion anyway?)

[Fax Celestis]

Grab Divine Defiance, and the Spontaneous Domain Casting ACF. Key it to the Magic domain. This allows you to convert spell slots to Dispel Magic, which, when combined with Divine Defiance, allows immediate action counterspells against other casters. Paired with the Inquisition domain, you're great at locking down other casters.

The Divine Magician ACF allows you to trade one domain for a domain composed of Divinations, Necromancies and Abjurations off of the Sor/Wiz list. This opens up a lot of great negative energy Debuffs, such as Enervate. I also like Ray of Exhaustion here. Add Split Ray and you're basically delivering Exhaustion with no save. This trick works well if you're a Cloistered Cleric trading away your Knowledge Domain (since you're a debuffer cleric, what do you need with Knowledge Devotion anyway?)

The Spontaneous Domain Casting ACF is pretty bad. What you want is the Domain Spontaneity feat from CDiv.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fear effects (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809) could be useful, though Cleric isn't quite as good at that as other classes/builds.

Cleric can do Shadowcraft Mage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5638.0) fairly well, just get either the Gnome or Illusion domain (or both!) with the Spontaneous Domain Casting ACF and use (DMM) Heightened Silent Image to make your shadow illusions.



The Spontaneous Domain Casting ACF is pretty bad. What you want is the Domain Spontaneity feat from CDiv.

Not so, especially regarding the trick he described! Spontaneous domain casting trades your ability to spontaneously convert cure or inflict spells, whereas Domain Spontaneity costs you a feat and you have to spend a turn/rebuke use every time you use it. His suggestion was to use Divine Defiance, which costs a turn/rebuke use whenever you use it, so you can't use Domain Spontaneity with that as they're both divine feats, per CD p77:

Regardless, you may activate only one divine feat (or use the ability to turn or rebuke undead once) per round, though overlapping durations may allow you the benefits of more than one divine feat at a time.

[Fax Celestis]

Ah then he probably wants the Spontaneous Domains feat from CCham.

[Gullintanni]

Ah then he probably wants the Spontaneous Domains feat from CCham.

No, I was specifically referencing Spontaneous Domain Casting from PHBII, pg 37 that allows you to forgo the spontaneous conversion of spells into cure or inflict spells in order to spontaneously cast Dispel Magic from the Magic Domain with a +4 untyped bonus to caster level check from Church Inquisitor.

Spending a turn attempt, via the Divine Defiance feat, permits you to counter opposing spellcasters as an Immediate Action.

Spontaneous cures and inflicts? Who needs 'em. Wand of Lesser Vigor. Persisted (if allowed) Lesser Vigor. Prepare your cure spells, and convert them into counterspells as necessary. This set up also means you never have to spend any of your domain spell slots in the Magic domain, leaving you the freedom to ham it up with your Divine Magician ACF.

The point is, if you're playing a competent counterspell//debuff cleric, and you miss Spontaneous healing, there's an outside chance that you're doing it wrong ;)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

On the topic of a divine debuffer who counterspells, here's a Paladin build for that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?275093-its-a-villain-sort-of#5). It produces multiple fear effects, uses immediate action counterspells, and is extremely dangerous in melee and moderately tanky to boot.

Otherwise if you're not married to the Cleric class features of domains and Turn Undead, you would probably be better off with an Archivist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) since that gets nearly every spell in the game (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1023251), including most of the best debuffs.