A Good Ending For The Goblin Race

[oppyu]

Over the course of the story, we the audience have learned that the goblin race is subject to great injustice and something should be done about that. However, I don't see how the story could progress in a way that results in... well, something being done about that. The Good-aligned forces trying to save the world certainly aren't inclined to do something about it. At the beginning they ranged from ambivalent to negative on goblin rights. And since then, all they've learned is that the goblin race are murderous slavers who need to be driven from Azure City with extreme prejudice. The Gods also won't be too thrilled if/when they learn that the Dark One was planning to free a deity-killing abomination to blackmail them. None of this is pointing towards a more compassionate outlook on the plight of goblins and other non-humanoid races.

So what does that leave? The villains successfully do the Gate thing and the world becomes a better place as a result? While that would certainly be a humorous way of reminding the readers that the Giant views the myth arc as being less important than character development (What? Everything the Order did was completely pointless and they should have just backed off from the start? Why did I bother reading this?) I'm having difficulty seeing the story end that way as well.

[Keltest]

Personally I suspect that the Order isn't going to have anything to do with any goblin-rights issues that get resolved. Azure City as an entity is in a much better position to actually do something about it. My personal theory is that the goblins and Azurites will be forced to work together for mutual survival, and this will breed an uneasy alliance that eventually becomes lasting peace.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I suspect things will only start changing for the goblin race towards the end of the story. Perhaps Xykon will discover Redcloak's treachery and Redcloak will try to get the Order to support his goals.

[Morty]

As I said in another thread, I really doubt the status quo of the monstrous races' situation is going to remain unchanged by the end of the story. To say that it doesn't look likely is making assumptions based on incomplete information. A lot may happen before the comic is over. The Order is led by a man who we know is unwilling to play along with the tendency to just kill them and not worry about it, and one of its members just got a horrifying lesson in not passing judgement on entire species of people.

[ti'esar]

If nothing else, I think it's very unlikely that the Order won't come to understand Redcloak's motivations a little better. It's theoretically possible that they won't and it'll be some kind of dramatic irony thing, but it doesn't seem likely.

I'm also not certain why people are so quick to assume that we're on a straight line to the ending from here. There's two whole books to go; I doubt either of them will be as long as BRitF, but they certainly won't be as short as DCF either. That's a lot of space for things to change in.

[Deliverance]

Over the course of the story, we the audience have learned that the goblin race is subject to great injustice and something should be done about that.

No, we have not.

We've learned that Redcloak believes they are subjected to great injustice, which is a different thing.

What we have learned, if we doubted it, is that the goblinoid races are people too and should be treated as such. Capable of distinguishing good from evil and right from wrong, and hence responsible for their actions.

It means that we should not excuse their behaviour when they want what others have and take it by force, but treat it as we would if it were done by any other people.

It means not excusing those members of the Sapphire Guard that committed an atrocity in the attack on Redcloak's village.

It means finding Redcloak's racism just as unacceptable as the elf commander's without excusing either.

With regards to Gobbutopia, what we saw was not an oppressed people seeking liberty - what we saw was 300 organized legions living in an area that could support them that, when urged by the their supreme leader, were more than happy to attack a distant city and enslave the inhabitants, taking the city for their own. This makes them neither better nor worse than any other people that would do the same.

[GAAD]

Eh, let's just give them all whistles and be done with it.
Wait, is whistle-giving morally justified?

[Ron Miel]

My prediction:

The world inside the rift becomes a homeland for goblins.

[Rinion]

My prediction:

The world inside the rift becomes a homeland for goblins.

Well, darn it. I was about to break my however-many-years-long lurking streak to suggest this.

Actually, can we be entirely certain this isn't part of the Dark One's plan already? Extracting the Snarl from the rift-world not only to coerce the other gods but to afford his people a safe, adventurer-free place to live? Although I don't see what reason he'd have to conceal it from Redcloak.

[Sylian]

(What? Everything the Order did was completely pointless and they should have just backed off from the start? Why did I bother reading this?)Remember that they're mainly out to stop Xykon, not Redcloak. It's possible (albeit somewhat unlikely) that the Order will defeat Xykon and Redcloak still will succeed with his plan. I do expect that the comic will end in a way that improves the lives of ordinary goblins; however, I suspect it might be in spit of Redcloak's actions, not because of. Maybe. I'm mostly just guessing, anyway, and Rich Burlew can be hard to predict at times.

[Windscion]

I do expect that the comic will end in a way that improves the lives of ordinary goblins; however, I suspect it might be in spite of Redcloak's actions, not because of.
You raise a valid point. After all, Redcloak's brother Right-Eye (deceased) told him (in SoD) that the Dark One's plan was crap. Of course, RC is the High Priest so he really cannot just chuck it, and I can accept that. And it is hard to see why RC should see the circumstances much differently from his diety -- the Dark One was betrayed by humans, and human paladins slaughtered Redcloak's village. I guess what I am saying is that I don't blame Redcloak for his point of view. So to the extent that he hurts, not helps his people, his life is a tragedy.

[Zordrath]

After Start of Darkness raised it as such a major issue, I really can't imagine that the main story won't address this. And in some way it will have to be adressed, because it's been one of the major sources of conflict in the story and even if the Order defeats Xykon it would keep on driving violence and war.

However, I find it interesting that without Start of Darkness readers don't really have much reason to actually sympathize with the Goblin cause thus far. In that book we see great injustice done to Redcloak's family and get a backstory that shows the entire race and their god mistreated (provided that's all true of course), so we may draw the conclusion that the Goblins should have been given a fairer shake from the start. In the main story, as far as I recall the Goblins are shown in a much less ambigous light: They enjoy war, they have fun beating up slaves, they plunder and pillage and they're just generally an Evil race without being overly provoked or forced into that. There are small hints like Redcloaks remark about his mother, but I wonder whether someone who hasn't read SoD would even enertain the notion that the Goblin race could or should get a happy ending?

[hamishspence]

However, I find it interesting that without Start of Darkness readers don't really have much reason to actually sympathize with the Goblin cause thus far. In that book we see great injustice done to Redcloak's family and get a backstory that shows the entire race and their god mistreated (provided that's all true of course), so we may draw the conclusion that the Goblins should have been given a fairer shake from the start. In the main story, as far as I recall the Goblins are shown in a much less ambigous light: They enjoy war, they have fun beating up slaves, they plunder and pillage and they're just generally an Evil race without being overly provoked or forced into that. There are small hints like Redcloaks remark about his mother, but I wonder whether someone who hasn't read SoD would even enertain the notion that the Goblin race could or should get a happy ending?

War & XPs readers might feel reason to wonder.

[Xapi]

I'm going to go on a limb here and say that I think we already have the Goblin's good ending, assuming the rest of the plot resolves favourably to the heroes (*).

They have a secure and highly defendable city, that was only taken down by the highest level arcane spellcaster in the world alongside one of the highest level divine spellcasters, and a huge friggin army.

They have a sensible leader, apparently loved by his peole.

The city is expected to have good farming grounds surrounding it, and lots of infrastructure must have survived the siege.

I really don't see how Hinjo can take the city back, and the Sapphire Guard has all but lost any meaning.

Didn't Goblins already achieve most, if not all of what RC is trying for with his plan?

(*) Xykon destroyed
Redcloak dead, de-powered or redeemed
Snarl contained, world safe, rifts deactivated

[Mike Havran]

I'm going to go on a limb here and say that I think we already have the Goblin's good ending, assuming the rest of the plot resolves favourably to the heroes. I agree. Goblins are on they way to become a more civilized and respected nation. A few generations later, the siege, bloodshed and slavery of the defeated Azurites will be just a chapter in a history book. I would be very surprised if, say, Greysky or Somewhere did not have a similarly bloody history.

[cybishop]

I see three possibilities for Goblins:

1. Gobbotopia is as good as it gets and that's good enough, as people have said in this thread.

2. The world gets so nearly destroyed in the course of the story that everyone is basically bombed back to the Stone Age. In that case, goblinoids would have as good a chance of prospering as humans, and both would have a better chance if they work together, but either way we don't get to see the final word on it during the lifetime of the characters.

3. They go back to their usual lot in life of being chunks of XP for PCs. Yes, this would be sad. It would be used as either black comedy, further commentary on the screwed-up morality of D&D and similar game worlds, or both.

Also, assuming that The Plan is basically what we've been told (the Snarl really is like what everyone thinks, the ritual really does give the Dark One control of it, etc.), I think it's more likely that Redcloak becomes the Big Bad that has to be stopped and Xykon joins the heroes against him. Redemption would be ridiculous, but he'd be mad enough to want Redcloak dead after that, and they could use his help. That could easily make either my second or my third possibility more likely.

[LadyEowyn]

I think 1) is either the most likely or second-most-likely possibility for goblins. The other major possibility is that the Snarl emerges from the rift above the city and destroys Gobbotopia, giving Redcloak a very evident and crushing proof of what the Plan has cost Goblinkind. Regardless of what happens, there is going to be some positive change in the status quo around how goblins are treated.

The probability of 3) is next to non-existent; having that be the 'victory' ending for the heroes validates that state of society, and we know that Rich is heavily focused on the ideas his story is communicating. 2) also seems darker than this story generally gets.

[Tiri]

I would be very surprised if, say, Greysky or Somewhere did not have a similarly bloody history.

I think Greysky has a bloody present too.

[halfeye]

I think it's more likely that Redcloak becomes the Big Bad that has to be stopped and Xykon joins the heroes against him. Redemption would be ridiculous,

We have some backstory for Xykon, but from his teen years to the death of Fyron, nothing. If what was stolen from Fyron was the crown, which we know makes the carrier show as EVIL (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html) to a detect evil spell, it is (barely) possible that Xycon was called to by the crown which Fyron was holding captive against its wishes because it is immensely evil, and only became very evil himself after putting it on. Therefore, redemption while not likely (he set zombies on his parents) is not utterly impossible.


As I said in another thread, I really doubt the status quo of the monstrous races' situation is going to remain unchanged by the end of the story. To say that it doesn't look likely is making assumptions based on incomplete information. A lot may happen before the comic is over. The Order is led by a man who we know is unwilling to play along with the tendency to just kill them and not worry about it, and one of its members just got a horrifying lesson in not passing judgement on entire species of people.

Yes, there shall (hopefully) be justice.


I'm also not certain why people are so quick to assume that we're on a straight line to the ending from here. There's two whole books to go; I doubt either of them will be as long as BRitF, but they certainly won't be as short as DCF either. That's a lot of space for things to change in.
WT "sugar" (or expletive/euphemism of your choice that doesn't cross forum guidelines):

I'm fairly convinced that these last two books will be longer than any we've seen so far. It's entirely possible that there will be more than two to keep individual books short, but I would almost bet, and I'm not at all a betting man, that the total pagecount between the end of OoTS and the end of BRitF will be more than twice the pagecount of BRitF itself. I will probably enjoy all of it (supposing I'm not dead first).



Over the course of the story, we the audience have learned that the goblin race is subject to great injustice and something should be done about that.
No, we have not.
Yes we have in SoD.

[Jay R]

I would love to believe that uniting the goblin peoples into an empire centered on the old Azure City will give them everything they need, by eventually earning the respect of the other races, while all the attempts to open the Gate and release the Snarl for blackmail purposes will be useless.

[t209]

Even though I kinda like Gobbotopia, but I felt that they should have a party..
like how Freys did for the Starks and Tullys after Robb refused to take his wife.
or
feast with "secret recipes" for the diplomatic meetings after the OOTS Version of Red Wedding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html).

[Koo Rehtorb]

A painless death.

[Porthos]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I will be a little surprised if Gobbotopia doesn't stand more or less as it is at the end of the story (maybe with some better conditions with Jirix in charge, maybe not). Mostly because the folks who actually give a crap about restoring Azure City are literally an ocean away.

Basically I'm of the position that every passing day just re-enforces the emerging status quo. Goblins and co in one city, Azurites in their new found home. It's not like they aren't used to living in a city-state anyways.

Speaking of which, that gives me an idea for a thread that I haven't seen talked much about. It's something I was already thinking about today, and this thread is giving me the impetus to start a discussion about it.

How would a Neo Azure City affect the Western Continent? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?385281-How-would-a-Neo-Azure-City-affect-the-Western-Continent)

Check it out if discussion idea looks appealing at all. :smallsmile:

[Xapi]

We have some backstory for Xykon, but from his teen years to the death of Fyron, nothing. If what was stolen from Fyron was the crown, which we know makes the carrier show as EVIL (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html) to a detect evil spell, it is (barely) possible that Xycon was called to by the crown which Fyron was holding captive against its wishes because it is immensely evil, and only became very evil himself after putting it on. Therefore, redemption while not likely (he set zombies on his parents) is not utterly impossible.


The crown registered evil because the Most Powerful Evil Entity in the Universe, Powered by Negative Energy wore it for a long time. Even Durkon explains this in the comic you linked.

Xykon stole the crown from Fyron because it looks badass.

[halfeye]

The crown registered evil because the Most Powerful Evil Entity in the Universe, Powered by Negative Energy wore it for a long time. Even Durkon explains this in the comic you linked.

Xykon stole the crown from Fyron because it looks badass.
It seems to me that was Durkon's best guess. I don't think he was quoting lore when he said that. We know it makes the bearer detect as evil now, we don't know that it definitively didn't have that property before Xykon got hold of it. After all, it was in Master Fyron's collection, why would he have wanted a mundane crown?

[Keltest]

It seems to me that was Durkon's best guess. I don't think he was quoting lore when he said that. We know it makes the bearer detect as evil now, we don't know that it definitively didn't have that property before Xykon got hold of it. After all, it was in Master Fyron's collection, why would he have wanted a mundane crown?

Obviously because it looks awesome.

[Wardog]

[completely missing the point of the story]
A good ending for the goblin race?

All of them six-feet under!
[/completely missing the point of the story]

Joking aside:

I'm not sure "the goblins get a new homeworld in the rift" would be a very good resolution. Well, it might be good "in-universe" for the goblins (and their enemies), but from a telling-a-story-with-a-moral-message, it would be pretty bad (IMO). It would essentially be saying "no, goblins can't live in peace with everyone else - they have to go into exile in another universe". Which is pretty useless as far as making a real-world ethical point would be.


One solution might be to have the Snarl and/or the Dark One initiating a terrible cataclysm, and the other goblins joining with the rest of the world to stop it, thereby earning respect and redemption. (Although hopefully the Giant won't go down the Warcraft implementation of that trope, and have the goblins act almost as bad as before while insisting "They helped defeat the demons - they're totes as good as everyone else!").


The "hold onto Gobbotopia" could work too. I disagree with the notion sometimes expressed that all the Azurites deserve to be driven from their homes (if they weren't killed or enslaved) and have no right to go back. But if the goblins manage to hold it for a few generations, by which time all the people who remember the people who lived in Azure City are dead, then they won't be any different from any other city or civilization with conquest in their history, and everyone ought to accept them (assuming they don't abuse their new power). And even if they do, that wouldn't make them worse than many other civilizations, so they would cease to become "walking chunks of XP" and instead become "militaristic nation #17, to scheme with/against as appropriate".