TWF-feats?

[Falrin]

Just an idea: Do we really need TWF-tree?

Let's see. TWF is concidered one of the weaker choses for melee builds. What if we dropped the feats? Everybody meeting the Dex Prerq. can fight with Two Weapons and gets his secondary attacks with them.

The sword & board builds benefit from this as wel as wel. They tend to be low on the dex side, but now they can get an extra bash in whithout taking a load of feats.

Also remember you still get the -2/-2 when using a off hand light weapon. That's +4 damage for a powerattacking two-hander.

[Amiria]

The basic Two-Weapon Fighting feat should stay. Not everybody who is dextrous enough should be able to fight with two weapons.

But I agree that the Improved/Greater/Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting feats should should be removed. Extra attacks with the off-hand should be gained automatically with a high enough BAB.

[AtomicKitKat]

Just roll the whole tree into one.

TWF
Pre-requisite: Dexterity 13
Benefit: Extra attack with the Off-hand.(blah blah, negate most of the penalties, etc.)

Special: If you have Dexterity 15 and BAB 6, you get a second off-hand attack at -5(from the first attack). If you have Dexterity 17 and BAB 11, you get a third off-hand attack at -10(from the first attack). If you have Dexterity 19 and BAB 16, you get a fourth off-hand attack at -15(from the first attack).

Limits low Dexterity characters, and scales with level.

[kamikasei]

The basic Two-Weapon Fighting feat should stay. Not everybody who is dextrous enough should be able to fight with two weapons.

But I agree that the Improved/Greater/Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting feats should should be removed. Extra attacks with the off-hand should be gained automatically with a high enough BAB.

Well, anyone can fight with two weapons, they'll just not be very good at it. But I do think that making the basic TWF feat give its bonuses and then enable you to gain off-hand attacks automatically with BAB would be a good change.

[ravenkith]

I've got to back this change as well. It might help out the TWFers considerable...hrm what to do with two extra feats..

[AtomicKitKat]

I've got to back this change as well. It might help out the TWFers considerable...hrm what to do with two extra feats..

Flay/Skewer/Pulverise Foe from Champions of Ruin?:smallbiggrin:

[Closet_Skeleton]

Personally I would reinstate the old Ambidexterity and then merge Improved/Greater into normal Two-Weapon Fighting. Ambidexterity has a dex prerequisite but Two-Weapon Fighting doesn't. Possibly keep Supreme Two-Weapon Fighting at Epic as a seperate feat since it has a few abuses.

Two-Weapon Fighting
Prerequisites: Base Attack bonus +1
Benifit: You may reduce the normal two-weapon fighting penalties to a -5 penalty with your off-hand but no penalty to your on-hand. Off-hand attacks still only recieve 0.5 your strength bonus to damage.
Special: When you start to recieve extra attacks (+6 base attack bonus and every +5 after) you may make those attacks with your off-hand as well but suffer a -5 penalty on each one. If you are not wielding a light weapon in your off-hand double all penalties.

Ambidexterity
Prerequisites: Dexterity 15+
Benifit: You may use both hands equally. When wielding two-weapons you add 1x your strength bonus to both attacks and may choose to suffer a -2 penalty to both your on and off-hand attacks rather than a -5 penalty to your off-hand.
Special: If you are not wielding a light weapon in your off-hand double all penalties.

Two-Weapon Defence
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise
Benefit: When you are using the Combat Expertise feat you only recieve an attack penalty on your off-hand attacks. However the armour class bonus becomes a shield bonus rather than a dodge bonus.
Special: If you have the Improved Shield Bash feat you may stack the bonus from Combat Expertise with the bonus from your shield.

[RMS Oceanic]

What a Kwinkydink! I came up with some revised TWF feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38246) not too long ago. I think they pretty much cover the issues raised here.

[AtomicKitKat]

Personally I would reinstate the old Ambidexterity and then merge Improved/Greater into normal Two-Weapon Fighting. Ambidexterity has a dex prerequisite but Two-Weapon Fighting doesn't. Possibly keep Supreme Two-Weapon Fighting at Epic as a seperate feat since it has a few abuses.*snip*

You're not really addressing the fundamental problem of TWF, which is that it costs a tremendous amount of feats to make effective.