Assistance with paladin build

[Petioni]

So playgrounders, I seek your aid once again, my fighter has been sent for retraining as a paladin as they are in dire need (both thematically and mechanically [we have no frontline or main healer in our party]) and I am going 1 cleric/5 paladin(charging smite)/X gray guard(fits world theme and 6/9 divine casting). I have my feats pretty much down but could always use input, right now I have power attack, awesome smite and death devotion for a single target debuffer with sword and board (any way to increase damage done with one handers?). Any suggestions would be helpful such as enchantments and the like. All books are available but 3.5 only.

[heavyfuel]

Ok... Cleric 1/ Pally 5/ Gray Guard X is a horrible build, even by low OP standards. Given the amount of levels in Paladin you took, and considering that Paladins are only half-casters to begin with, the Gray Guard levels will give you terrible casting progression of either Cleric or Paladin spells.

Possibly the best combination for a Healer/Front Liner (if you don't go into Cleric-zilla builds) is Cleric 4 / Crusader 1 / Ruby Knight Vindicator 10.

You get 14/15 BAB, 12/15 Caster Levels, 13/15 Initiator Levels, and some really nice tanking abilities as well as some extra damage from Maneuvers and Stances. You can also take Cloistered Cleric instead of Cleric for extra skill points and Knowledge Domain (which you can then swap for Knowledge Devotion feat), but you will lose 1 BAB and some HP.

[Blackhawk748]

Ok, first question, what is with the Cleric Dip? Also ditch Power attack, its not worth it for one handers, since your Sword and Boarding i recommend Shield Ward (which requires Shield Spec as a Pre req, but youll have Shield AC to Touch AC, as well as several other things) Death Devotion is a solid choice for upping your killing potential and you can just burn your Paladin turn attempts to fuel it.

Personally i would just go Paladin 5/ Grey Guard X as Grey Guard is a Paladin Prc. Your other option is to go Cleric/Fighter/Prestige Paladin/Grey Guard, delays you entrance a bit but it gets you a much better spell list.

Oh you may want to consider Battle Blessing, Swift Action spells are sweet.

[Petioni]

Ok... Cleric 1/ Pally 5/ Gray Guard X is a horrible build, even by low OP standards. Given the amount of levels in Paladin you took, and considering that Paladins are only half-casters to begin with, the Gray Guard levels will give you terrible casting progression of either Cleric or Paladin spells.

Possibly the best combination for a Healer/Front Liner (if you don't go into Cleric-zilla builds) is Cleric 4 / Crusader 1 / Ruby Knight Vindicator 10.

You get 14/15 BAB, 12/15 Caster Levels, 13/15 Initiator Levels, and some really nice tanking abilities as well as some extra damage from Maneuvers and Stances. You can also take Cloistered Cleric instead of Cleric for extra skill points and Knowledge Domain (which you can then swap for Knowledge Devotion feat), but you will lose 1 BAB and some HP.

well here is the thing, my DM is relatively new and so am I, so I don't want to completely break his campaign over my knee nor do I want to deal with maneuvers very much as I always forget about them, this and flavor would be the reason for me taking gray guard I might just drop the cleric dip tho thank you for the knowledge regardless :).

[Blackhawk748]

well here is the thing, my DM is relatively new and so am I, so I don't want to completely break his campaign over my knee nor do I want to deal with maneuvers very much as I always forget about them, this and flavor would be the reason for me taking gray guard I might just drop the cleric dip tho thank you for the knowledge regardless :).

If thats the case, then go with my first recommendation. Its simple, flavorful and works ok, just be sure to use a Wand of Cure X instead of your precious, precious spell slots.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't want to crap on your build but heavyfuel is right, your spellcasting will be in the toilet. There's nothing wrong with that but you should be aware of it.

Since gray guard leans heavily on the LoH feature, picking up gear that improves it would be good, e.g. caduceous (sp?) bracers and a unicorn pendant.

The mount will be useless a couple levels after getting it so dump it for an acf. Charging smite is nice.

[Petioni]

Ok, first question, what is with the Cleric Dip? Also ditch Power attack, its not worth it for one handers, since your Sword and Boarding i recommend Shield Ward (which requires Shield Spec as a Pre req, but youll have Shield AC to Touch AC, as well as several other things) Death Devotion is a solid choice for upping your killing potential and you can just burn your Paladin turn attempts to fuel it.

Personally i would just go Paladin 5/ Grey Guard X as Grey Guard is a Paladin Prc. Your other option is to go Cleric/Fighter/Prestige Paladin/Grey Guard, delays you entrance a bit but it gets you a much better spell list.

Oh you may want to consider Battle Blessing, Swift Action spells are sweet.

Okay so death devotion, shield spec, and shield ward for 3 feats. Any recommendations for things after this or should i just ride out gray guard all the way?

[Blackhawk748]

Okay so death devotion, shield spec, and shield ward for 3 feats. Any recommendations for things after this or should i just ride out gray guard all the way?

Well Practiced Spellcaster will get your CL back to not garbage levels (still not great, but not terribad) Battle Blessing is nice for a Swift action Rhino's Rush, combined with your Charging Smite you can hit pretty hard when you want. On top of that Battle Blessing is just a good feat in general for Pallys.

Other than that grab what Kelb recommends, Lay on Hands is very important to a Grey Guard.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The cleric dip isn't such a bad thing. Heck, there's a whole handbook for taking a 1 level cleric dip.

[Extra Anchovies]

Okay so death devotion, shield spec, and shield ward for 3 feats. Any recommendations for things after this or should i just ride out gray guard all the way?

A dip into Pious Templar can nab you Mettle, which is always nice to have; alternately you could spend all of your last 5 levels in it. You'd lose out on Paladin casting but would get third-level casting from Pious Templar (coincidentally enough from the Paladin list).

[heavyfuel]

well here is the thing, my DM is relatively new and so am I, so I don't want to completely break his campaign over my knee nor do I want to deal with maneuvers very much as I always forget about them, this and flavor would be the reason for me taking gray guard I might just drop the cleric dip tho thank you for the knowledge regardless :).

It's cool of you don't want to break the campaign, but some abusive things aside (WRT to infinity, multiple Swift Actions) you're not gonna break anyone's campaign.

If so, then for a nice front liner/healer, Cleric 6 / Abjurant Champion 5 (Divine adaptation) / Fist of Raziel 9 gives you 18/20 BAB and 19/20 Casting. Using (Greater) Luminous Armor will give you pretty good AC, although the lack of a Shield spell will hurt a bit, but your HP will be pretty good because 14 out of your 20 levels you'll be rolling a d10, and a d8 for the other 6.

[Extra Anchovies]

It's cool of you don't want to break the campaign, but some abusive things aside (WRT to infinity, multiple Swift Actions) you're not gonna break anyone's campaign.

If so, then for a nice front liner/healer, Cleric 6 / Abjurant Champion 5 (Divine adaptation) / Fist of Raziel 9 gives you 18/20 BAB and 19/20 Casting. Using (Greater) Luminous Armor will give you pretty good AC, although the lack of a Shield spell will hurt a bit, but your HP will be pretty good because 14 out of your 20 levels you'll be rolling a d10, and a d8 for the other 6.

Indeed. The best Paladin is, sadly, a Cleric. But then, the best way to make any non-T1 non-psionic class effective is to emulate one via Cleric. Even without the divine AbjChamp adaptation it's pretty darn good. Consider alternately Ordained Champion (which is focused on a lawful good deity).

[Petioni]

Thanks for the help so far everyone. I think I am going to just drop the sword and board as that seems really feat intensive, is there an Ur-priest/paladin of tyranny build or something along those lines?

[Extra Anchovies]

Thanks for the help so far everyone. I think I am going to just drop the sword and board as that seems really feat intensive, is there an Ur-priest/paladin of tyranny build or something along those lines?

[good fort/will class with spellcraft in-class] 5/Ur-priest 1/Prestige Paladin (LE or CE adaptation) 3/[something that advances casting] 7/[whatever else you want] 4

Otherwise, there isn't really much that enables divine/divine theurging.

[Blackhawk748]

Thanks for the help so far everyone. I think I am going to just drop the sword and board as that seems really feat intensive, is there an Ur-priest/paladin of tyranny build or something along those lines?

Well if your dropping sword and board, get Power Attack back and wield a valorous greatsword and use Battle Blessing to swift cast Rhinos Rush, so you can do triple damage on the charge plus your charging smite.

[heavyfuel]

Thanks for the help so far everyone. I think I am going to just drop the sword and board as that seems really feat intensive, is there an Ur-priest/paladin of tyranny build or something along those lines?

There might be. Something 5/ Ur priest 1 / Prestige Paladin of Tyranny 14. You get 8th level spells by lv 20 (more if you go Bone Knight, although you lose some BAB).

The main problem with this build is that 1: Prestige Paladin only applies to the regular Paladin; and 2: It comes only way too late. But if you don't care for the second one, and if your DM allows the first one, this can be an OK build.

[heavyfuel]

Well if your dropping sword and board, get Power Attack back and wield a valorous greatsword and use Battle Blessing to swift cast Rhinos Rush, so you can do triple damage on the charge plus your charging smite.

Valorous weapons deal double weapon damage on a charge, not double damage. His Valorous greatsword +1 will deal 4d6+2, but the damage from Str bonus, PA, Knowledge Devotion and whatever else won't be multiplied.


When used in a charge, the valorous weapon deals double damage

[Troacctid]

Valorous weapons deal double weapon damage on a charge, not double damage. His Valorous greatsword +1 will deal 4d6+2, but the damage from Str bonus, PA, Knowledge Devotion and whatever else won't be multiplied.

But most of that additional damage is dealt by the weapon. It is slashing damage, bypasses DR/magic, and so on.

[Petioni]

Valorous weapons deal double weapon damage on a charge, not double damage. His Valorous greatsword +1 will deal 4d6+2, but the damage from Str bonus, PA, Knowledge Devotion and whatever else won't be multiplied.

Hmmmm I see your point here, I think it would still might be worth getting, what about with an improved critical or keen weapon so I could also crit on the charge?

[Blackhawk748]

Hmmmm I see your point here, I think it would still might be worth getting, what about with an improved critical or keen weapon so I could also crit on the charge?

If your interested in Keen id use a Falchion, as it has a better crit range

[Petioni]

If your interested in Keen id use a Falchion, as it has a better crit range

Okay so now I am heading in a rough direction is there another paladin OR cleric build I could do around crit fishing?

[Extra Anchovies]

There might be. Something 5/ Ur priest 1 / Prestige Paladin of Tyranny 14. You get 8th level spells by lv 20 (more if you go Bone Knight, although you lose some BAB).

The main problem with this build is that 1: Prestige Paladin only applies to the regular Paladin; and 2: It comes only way too late. But if you don't care for the second one, and if your DM allows the first one, this can be an OK build.

Prestige Paladin isn't all that great after level 5 or so. Over the next 10 levels, you get... two weekly uses of remove disease and two daily uses of smite evil. Yes, that's totally worth five caster levels. Maybe try for that Abjurant Champion adaptation?

Although it doesn't work with Ur-Priest, Knight of the Raven kicks ass for divine gishes who don't want to rely on Divine Power all day. Full BAB, 9/10 casting, lots of fairly good class features. Sanctified Mind is 5/6 plus full BAB, and it theurges with psionics (but only requires a reserve of 1 power point, no manifesting necessary; psionic races help here) and gives out some nice anti-mind-affecting class features.

[heavyfuel]

Prestige Paladin isn't all that great after level 5 or so. Over the next 10 levels, you get... two weekly uses of remove disease and two daily uses of smite evil. Yes, that's totally worth five caster levels. Maybe try for that Abjurant Champion adaptation?


Yeah, P Pally sucks after lv 5. I just really couldn't think of any other class. The lack of Luminous Armor and Shield for this evil Abjurant Champion will negate his trademark strengths, although I suppose it's still way better than extra levels in P Pally, even if just for BAB and CLs

[Petioni]

Okay so I think I have found something, A kind of Sorcadin build starting with Paladin 2 (LG or LE) or what about soulborn and then transferring into a casting class, thoughts; suggestions?

[Troacctid]

Okay so now I am heading in a rough direction is there another paladin OR cleric build I could do around crit fishing?

Fist of Raziel automatically confirms critical hits when you smite evil.

[Petioni]

So now I am thinking of going full on evil and going 2 Soulborn(LE)/3 PoT/1 Ur-priest/something that advances casting, what do you guys think of this?

[Petrocorus]

First, is DragMag material allowed? Is DMM allowed?

Two, are you really decided on the classes and PrC? Is there a particular reason to take Gray Gard?

Three, are you decided on the alignment?

Four, are you really decided on arcane or divine paladin? Both can heal with the right feats.

There are many possible paladin or paladin-like builds. You can just check my sig, there are some builds i gathered or made.

Concerning the healing, i would advise the Touch of Healing reserve feat, for some kind of unlimited lay-on-hands, up to half the normal maximum HP of the target. You can also dip into Dragon Shaman for the aura of vigor. Or go into persisted Vigorious Circle.

The fifth level of Paladin won't do any good, as already stated, the mount will be useless after a few level, unless you use one of those DragMag feat that allow to count the CL to improve the mount.

If you go into an alternate casting PrC like Pious Templar, Disciple of Thrym, Divine Crusader, Suel Arcanamach, Vigilante, etc, then you don't really need the paladin spellcasting. You can trade it for a bonus feat with that ACF from CChamp.

The adaptation section of the Ur-Priest let the DM make a good version of the Ur-Priest. That can be useful.

[Xerlith]

Paladin of Tyranny loses two big things:
- Sacred Exorcist class ,giving him access to Turn Undead with full casting progression
- Abjurant Champion-enhanced Exalted (Very-good-only) Luminous Armor line of spells, giving obscene amounts of AC.

That said, there are lots of build that you can make work, but for now you didn't specify what exactly it is you want from the build. Does it simply need to contain Paladin levels? Or do you want a straight-up paladin? Then the A-Game Paladin (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3407376) is pretty much your to-go source of inspiration.

Is it gishing? Then a Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist8 makes a great job being a martial fullcaster with a divine flair.

A magic-enhanced primary melee? Then you may want to look up a Mystic Fire Knight (All Substitution levels, Champions of Valor web enhancement) Paladin 6/Suel Arcanamach3/Abjurant Champion5/Spellsword4/Fighter2.

EDIT: Really, just roll up a Crusader20. For mercy's sake, you considered an UR-PRIEST.

[Petioni]

First, is DragMag material allowed? Is DMM allowed?

Two, are you really decided on the classes and PrC? Is there a particular reason to take Gray Gard?

Three, are you decided on the alignment?

Four, are you really decided on arcane or divine paladin? Both can heal with the right feats.

1. yes and yes.

2. No, not really, Flavor.

3. yes Lawful-something

4. Divine particularly but both work

[Xerlith]

Sanctified Mind is 5/6 plus full BAB, and it theurges with psionics

Actually it calls out "divine OR psionic", so sadly no theurgy.

[Petrocorus]

Is it gishing? Then a Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist8 makes a great job being a martial fullcaster with a divine flair.

And thanks to Hoard Life(RotD) and Undying Vigor of the Dragonlords (DMagic), the Sorcadin can heal. And fuel the Touch of Healing reserve feat.


A magic-enhanced primary melee? Then you may want to look up a Mystic Fire Knight (All Substitution levels, Champions of Valor web enhancement) Paladin 6/Suel Arcanamach3/Abjurant Champion5/Spellsword4/Fighter2.


Depending on the specific needs, 2 or 4 level of paladin can be replaced with Ranger, Fighter, Hexblade (for Mettle).

With Sword of the Arcane Order, the Suel Arcanamach can qualify for Prestige Bard and then for Sublime Chord.


1. yes and yes.
Look up the Serenity feat from Dragon Compendium, it keys the Pally abilities to Wisdom reducing the MADness if your PrC casting is keyed on Wisdom, like with Ur-Priest.


2. No, not really, Flavor.

Have you think about playing a Favoured Soul, the fluff can be really close to that of of a Pally.


3. yes Lawful-something

So, no Barbarian dip for Pounce, then.


4. Divine particularly but both work
I would really advise to take only 2 or 4 level of Paladin (for Turn Undead) and to go Favoured Soul or to take a PrC with and alternate casting. Divine Crusader, Disciple of Thrym being considered among the bests this side of Ur-Priest which may be considered as cheesy. Pious Templar is quite good too. Then you may go to another PrC with continuing casting like Windwalker (full casting, full BAB !), Ordained Champion (bonus domain), etc...

[Jane_Smith]

I dunno if this helps much or not, but, for some things you might enjoy;

Gauntlet's of Heartfelt Blows from dragon mag, 12,000 gp, 1 pound hand-slotter's. Gives you charisma bonus as bonus damage to all melee attacks and all touch attacks (melee or ranged). This combined with smite and divine wrath is glorious and I am asuming it would apply to lay on hands and cure spells used offensively vs. undead, as they deal damage and are touch attacks to deliver.

Confidence Enchantment from Book of Erotic Fantasy, +1 value enchantment for armor. Gives you a +2 enchantment bonus to Charisma (So doesnt stack with eagle's splendor or cloak of charisma), but gives charisma bonus to will saves. This of course, stacks with your charisma to all saves being paladin. So for 4k gp you can grab a +1 armor of Confidence (plus base cost of armor/masterwork) and get stupidly high will saves.

[Petioni]

And thanks to Hoard Life(RotD) and Undying Vigor of the Dragonlords (DMagic), the Sorcadin can heal. And fuel the Touch of Healing reserve feat.


Depending on the specific needs, 2 or 4 level of paladin can be replaced with Ranger, Fighter, Hexblade (for Mettle).

With Sword of the Arcane Order, the Suel Arcanamach can qualify for Prestige Bard and then for Sublime Chord.

Look up the Serenity feat from Dragon Compendium, it keys the Pally abilities to Wisdom reducing the MADness if your PrC casting is keyed on Wisdom, like with Ur-Priest.

Have you think about playing a Favoured Soul, the fluff can be really close to that of of a Pally.

So, no Barbarian dip for Pounce, then.

I would really advise to take only 2 or 4 level of Paladin (for Turn Undead) and to go Favoured Soul or to take a PrC with and alternate casting. Divine Crusader, Disciple of Thrym being considered among the bests this side of Ur-Priest which may be considered as cheesy. Pious Templar is quite good too. Then you may go to another PrC with continuing casting like Windwalker (full casting, full BAB !), Ordained Champion (bonus domain), etc...

I have considered favored soul and it is looking better by the second, the only thing that irks me is the BAB, is there any way to cover over this or is it in the casting we find solace for BAB?

[Extra Anchovies]

Actually it calls out "divine OR psionic", so sadly no theurgy.

Hm. Never saw that. Does it still require both, though? That's icky.

[Blackhawk748]

I have considered favored soul and it is looking better by the second, the only thing that irks me is the BAB, is there any way to cover over this or is it in the casting we find solace for BAB?

There are several PrCs that give full casting and full bab (sadly i cant think of any off the top of my head lol) so you can pretty much become a paladin with a better spell list.

[Petioni]

So the things I am seeing here bring me to this build so far 4 Paladin/Xx Favored soul; my feats would be Power attack, Divine might, and touch of healing as of now. So anything else the playground can come up with?

[Extra Anchovies]

There are several PrCs that give full casting and full bab (sadly i cant think of any off the top of my head lol) so you can pretty much become a paladin with a better spell list.

Favored Soul 6/Knight of the Raven 10/Sanctified Mind 4 has BAB +18 and 18/20 casting. ETA: Wow, that's actually pretty darn good. I now want to do this.

Paladin/Favored Soul is not recommended.

[Petrocorus]

I have considered favored soul and it is looking better by the second, the only thing that irks me is the BAB, is there any way to cover over this or is it in the casting we find solace for BAB?
Favoured Soul 8 makes you lose only 2 point of BAB, not that bad. Paladin 2 / Favoured Soul 8 / Windwalker 10 is a perfectly good build with BAB 18 and CL 18. You can also go into Prestige Paladin, that require dipping into a class that gives Turn Undead, like Knight of the Raven. I have 5 Favoured Soul builds there (http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img577/9184/2pw1.jpg).

You can also go FS 4 / Ordained Champion 3 or 5 / Something else n or FS 6 / Knight of the Raven 10 / Something 4. You qualify easily for both. Just remember not to lose more than 2 CL.
Windwalker is my personal favourite, but requires some cross-class skill, so maybe a ranger dip of some Skill Knowledge feat from UA, or Apprentice feat from DMG2.


Hm. Never saw that. Does it still require both, though? That's icky.

It actually require neither of them. BAB +4, proficiency with all martial weapon and power reserve of 1 single point that you can get from a race or Hidden Talent.


So the things I am seeing here bring me to this build so far 4 Paladin/Xx Favored soul; my feats would be Power attack, Divine might, and touch of healing as of now. So anything else the playground can come up with?

Holy Warrior (CChamp) is very good with a spontaneous caster. Knowledge Devotion is considered very good if you have the knowledge skill to go with it.
DMM: Persist go without saying for almost any divine casting build. Travel Devotion can be very useful too. I thing there is a feat somewhere in DragMag that get rid of the dual abilities casting of the Favoured Soul.

[Xerlith]

Favored Soul 6/Knight of the Raven 10/Sanctified Mind 4 has BAB +19 and 18/20 casting. ETA: Wow, that's actually pretty darn good. I now want to do this.

Paladin/Favored Soul is not recommended.

It's actually 18 BAB, since FS has 3/4 BAB. I would do a FS6/KotR10/PrC Paladin 3/FS+1 myself, though. Same BAB, same spellcasting, but more Charisma synergy and the relevance to low-lvl slots that Paladin spells bring.

[Extra Anchovies]

It's actually 18 BAB, since FS has 3/4 BAB. I would do a FS6/KotR10/PrC Paladin 3/FS+1 myself, though. Same BAB, same spellcasting, but more Charisma synergy and the relevance to low-lvl slots that Paladin spells bring.

Hm. You are correct about BAB, whoops! Also, that does look like a slightly better build. I like.

[Blackhawk748]

Favored Soul 6/Knight of the Raven 10/Sanctified Mind 4 has BAB +18 and 18/20 casting. ETA: Wow, that's actually pretty darn good. I now want to do this.

Paladin/Favored Soul is not recommended.

And you get a spiffy Raven buddy and are REALLY good at wrecking undead. Wow, fluffy and competent, not to often you see that in a build

[Extra Anchovies]

And you get a spiffy Raven buddy and are REALLY good at wrecking undead. Wow, fluffy and competent, not to often you see that in a build

Indeed. Could make for a nice servant of Odin, with a goal of ending the existence of the cowards who are too afraid to face death (i.e. intelligent undead such as vampires and liches). They know that they will not see Odin's hall, but refuse to accept their fate in Hel? Preposterous. They must be brought to a swift and brutal end.

...I am so making this my next character.

[Blackhawk748]

Indeed. Could make for a nice servant of Odin, with a goal of ending the existence of the cowards who are too afraid to face death (i.e. intelligent undead such as vampires and liches). They know that they will not see Odin's hall, but refuse to accept their fate in Hel? Preposterous. They must be brought to a swift and brutal end.

...I am so making this my next character.

Yup this now made my list of characters to play.

[Petioni]

Favoured Soul 8 makes you lose only 2 point of BAB, not that bad. Paladin 2 / Favoured Soul 8 / Windwalker 10 is a perfectly good build with BAB 18 and CL 18. You can also go into Prestige Paladin, that require dipping into a class that gives Turn Undead, like Knight of the Raven. I have 5 Favoured Soul builds there (http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img577/9184/2pw1.jpg).

You can also go FS 4 / Ordained Champion 3 or 5 / Something else n or FS 6 / Knight of the Raven 10 / Something 4. You qualify easily for both. Just remember not to lose more than 2 CL.
Windwalker is my personal favourite, but requires some cross-class skill, so maybe a ranger dip of some Skill Knowledge feat from UA, or Apprentice feat from DMG2.

Okay so I have now a paladin 2/ FS 8/ Kight of the raven 10 for 18 BAB and 17/20 casting for now with the feats Power attack, touch of healing, and battle blessing as of level 7(which I am going to be). Thank you playgrounders for being my fountain of knowledge, you have my profound respect as a paladin.

[Xerlith]

Okay so I have now a paladin 2/ FS 8/ Kight of the raven 10 for 18 BAB and 17/20 casting for now with the feats Power attack, touch of healing, and battle blessing as of level 7(which I am going to be). Thank you playgrounders for being my fountain of knowledge, you have my profound respect as a paladin.

Um... You'd probably be better off using the Prestige Paladin, or your Battle Blessing will do exactly nothing with Paladin 2(base), as you'll have no paladin spells at all.
On the bright side, you get 18/20 casting. So, nines.

[Petrocorus]

Okay so I have now a paladin 2/ FS 8/ Kight of the raven 10 for 18 BAB and 17/20 casting for now with the feats Power attack, touch of healing, and battle blessing as of level 7(which I am going to be).

I know you're really trying to optimize, but remember the n°1 rule: Thou Shalt Not Lose A Caster Level.
The Favoured Soul cannot lose more than 2 because he get 9 lvl spells at CL 18.
If you start with paladin 2, you cannot use KotR without losing 9 lvl spell. If you want KotR, you'd better use Prestige Paladin, KotR give you Turn Undead at 3rd level. So FS 6 / KotR 3 / Pr Paladin 2 / KotR +7 / Pr Paladin +1 / FS (or maybe Contemplative) +1 like Xerlith recommended.



Thank you playgrounders for being my fountain of knowledge, you have my profound respect as a paladin.

I'm happy to comply.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I know you're really trying to optimize, but remember the n°1 rule: Thou Shalt Not Lose A Caster Level.
The Favoured Soul cannot lose more than 2 because he get 9 lvl spells at CL 18.
If you start with paladin 2, you cannot use KotR without losing 9 lvl spell. If you want KotR, you'd better use Prestige Paladin, KotR give you Turn Undead at 3rd level. So FS 6 / KotR 3 / Pr Paladin 2 / KotR +7 / Pr Paladin +1 / FS (or maybe Contemplative) +1 like Xerlith recommended.

This is fine for theorycraft but in actual games it's a -lot- less important than some would like to believe. 8th level spells are plenty powerful enough to crush cr 17-20 foes. Hell, 6th and 7th level spells are adequate to the purpose in most instances. 9ths only really matter when the other guy is swinging them too, which will only happen frequently in a fairly high-op campaign.

[Gwendol]

With that build you should be wielding a falchion with the Bless weapon spell on a wand in a wand chamber.

[Troacctid]

With that build you should be wielding a falchion with the Bless weapon spell on a wand in a wand chamber.

But remember that Bless Weapon only auto-confirms critical hits on weapons that don't already have magical effects related to critical hits, so it's not a combo with a keen weapon. (Works fine with Improved Critical though.)

[Gwendol]

Yeah, I'd pick Imp crit over keen on a paladin using bless weapon (buying a valorous weapon when the funds are available).

[Petioni]

So, since this is still relativity on the front page what about Fighter 2/ FS 8/ Knight of the raven 10 for bonus feats so i could get pounce maybe?

[Xerlith]

There is no bonus fighter feat that grants pounce. For pounce you want to go Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian1. Which means that Spirit Lion Barbarian 1/Favored Soul9/Knight of the Raven 10 is a fully functional and viable build. You won't notice the BAB loss, since Divine Power is a thing and you get both high Charisma and Turn Undead to fuel all kinds of Divine feats, including Divine Metamagic to persist said Divine Power.

[Petioni]

There is no bonus fighter feat that grants pounce. For pounce you want to go Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian1. Which means that Spirit Lion Barbarian 1/Favored Soul9/Knight of the Raven 10 is a fully functional and viable build. You won't notice the BAB loss, since Divine Power is a thing and you get both high Charisma and Turn Undead to fuel all kinds of Divine feats, including Divine Metamagic to persist said Divine Power.

And I can be lawful at the same time? If so I am totally doing this.

[Red Fel]

And I can be lawful at the same time? If so I am totally doing this.

Alas, stupid though it may be, Barbarians must be nonlawful. That means you either have to (1) schedule an alignment shift between taking Barbarian levels and taking other levels, (2) talk to your DM about removing the alignment restriction on Barbarians (because it's silly), or (3) plan differently.

Now, there are feat-based methods of acquiring Pounce, for certain definitions of pounce. A popular one is Shape Soulmeld (Sphinx Claws). The problem: Sphinx Claws only lets you Pounce with natural weapons. So, no falchion there. There's Catfolk Pounce, which gives you a full attack on a charge if your opponent is flat-footed, but that only works if you're playing Catfolk. There's Martial Study (Pouncing Charge), which gives you the Pouncing Charge maneuver, but it requires two maneuvers as a prereq, as well as a high Initiator Level.

There are also methods of acquiring Shadow Pounce, which does the same thing but on a teleport; problem is that those are very class level-intensive.

My advice? Negotiate the Barbarian level.

[Xerlith]

You know, I can totally see a Lawful Barbarian, roleplayed as a paladin. Call your Rage something along the lines of Righteous Fury or Holy Fury and you're good.

Hmf. Now I kind of want to play a Crusader/Hellreaver.

[Red Fel]

You know, I can totally see a Lawful Barbarian, roleplayed as a paladin. Call your Rage something along the lines of Righteous Fury or Holy Fury and you're good.

You mean a Champion of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch?

[Xerlith]

You mean a Champion of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch?

Wasn't that Gwyneth Paltrow?

[aleucard]

You could also go for a poor man's Pounce and get some method of letting you make move actions and full-attack in the same round. You miss the benefits of charging, but it's much less of a headache to get. The Sudden Leap maneuver is one idea if you have the ranks to spare, as are things like Anklets of Translocation or (even better, assuming that rough terrain and/or gaps aren't involved) the Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker.

[Petrocorus]

LST Barbarian is good, but remember that then, you'll loss Divine Grace.
A Champion of Gwynharwyf (BoED) is a real possibility, but you cannot be lawful.
I also ave a Neutral-Good Paladin build if you want.


You mean a Champion of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch?

You actually have that name saved somewhere and you copy-paste each time you want to speak of Champion of Gwynharwyf, haven't you. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Cy-Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch_%28Welsh_pronunciation%2C_recorded_17-05-2012%29.ogg)


the Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker.

Waht is that?

[Xerlith]

Waht is that?

500gp, wondrous item, neck slot, 1/day move up to half your speed as a swift action.

[Extra Anchovies]

Wasn't that Gwyneth Paltrow?

That's my new favorite misspelling of Gwynharwyf. Oddly enough, I find it a breeze to spell correctly. I guess the word was unusual enough that it stuck.

[Petrocorus]

That's my new favorite misspelling of Gwynharwyf. Oddly enough, I find it a breeze to spell correctly. I guess the word was unusual enough that it stuck.

Champion of Gwynethpaltrow. Champion of Gwenstefani. That brings an all new fluff and purpose to the class.
Probably add Perform to the class skill list.