Riding Dog: Is "combat riding" the same as "trained for war"

[Hiro Quester]

Playing a (2 1/2 foot tall, 30 lb) Forest Gnome Druid with a riding dog AC/mount. first level. Can it trip, or do I need to train it to do that?

A riding dog is already trained to carry a rider into combat, according to the Handle Animal Directions:


Combat Riding (DC 20): ... Warhorses and riding dogs are already trained to bear riders into combat, and they don’t require any additional training for this purpose.

The description for a riding dog says this, though:


If trained for war, these animals can make trip attacks just as wolves do (see the Wolf entry).

So the phrase "if trained for war" seems to imply that this is not the default option, and "trained for war" is not the same as trained for "combat riding". Training for war adds something, including being able to trip, to the standard riding dog.

So how do I make a riding dog "Trained for War"? Is there a separate instruction for "training for war" that I haven't found? Does it involve anything else, in addition to tripping?

Or is that just training one additional trick (tripping)? I guess then it can be a Druid AC's bonus trick (no extra training time, etc.)?

Or is it applying the whole "warbeast" template to the Riding Dog? (I doubt it's this, since that template is from MM2, outside the standard Core books, and these instructions are from Core.)

[Segev]

The rules never come right out and say what "trained for war" means. However, where the rules lack specific definitions, D&D uses English as it colloquially means. Therefore, any training for combat is colloquially, in the context of what the animal is doing, synonymous with being "trained for war."

If trained for combat riding or attack, at the very least, it should qualify. It could be stretched to allow for being trained to "defend," too, since that involves training for combat.

But the simplest gauge is this: is the animal intended for use in combat by its master, and has it been trained to be so used? If so, it's "trained for war." Don't stress too much about it. Being "trained for war" is, after all, just a matter of training. You absolutely should be able to get your DM to agree to let you have your animal companion so trained, provided you have the skill.

[Curmudgeon]

Combat Riding (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel.

Fighting (DC 20): An animal trained to engage in combat knows the tricks attack, down, and stay.
It's not a complete overlap; a Dog trained for Combat Riding isn't going to be able to stay in place without attacking someone who approaches.

[Urpriest]

It's not a complete overlap; a Dog trained for Combat Riding isn't going to be able to stay in place without attacking someone who approaches.

Are you assuming that a dog "trained for war" is trained for Fighting? Because typically an animal used in war is used for riding in combat, not for fighting by itself.

[Curmudgeon]

Are you assuming that a dog "trained for war" is trained for Fighting? Because typically an animal used in war is used for riding in combat, not for fighting by itself.
I don't think that's the most common case, given the large number of animal companion creatures who fight without being ridden.

[G.Cube]

I think the best thing to do here is ask your DM.

[Urpriest]

I don't think that's the most common case, given the large number of animal companion creatures who fight without being ridden.

I have the impression that very few legal animal companions are used by armies during wartime, though. The only animals I can think of that are also described as being used for war are described as mounts.

[Hiro Quester]

Perhaps I want it both ways, be able to bear a rider into combat, but also be able to work with me in attacking (flanking) or being sent to attack on his own while I hang back and entangle, buff, lob sling stones, produce flames, etc.


An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel.

It seems that he can attack, and bear a rider. He just doesn't know "stay".

I did ask our DM when I was designing the character about tripping. He said that the dog would need to be "trained for war" separately before he could trip like a wolf. A little gnome like me, by myself, before meeting the rest of our party, couldn't train him alone. That would need other party members, so there would be someone on whom to practice tripping.

But now we have finished out first session, and have officially met the rest of the party, I want to ask the party rogue and fighter to help me train him to trip, and to flank when attacking, if possible. I'm trying to figure out what that means and how we go about training him "for war".

I'd prefer come to DM (and rogue and fighter) with "as I understand it here are the rules, and here's what that means", rather than just asking what DM thinks that means. (Less work for him, and lowers the possibility that he might make up something that isn't how I want it to go :small wink:.)

I'm hoping he'll include tripping as a bonus skill, that the druid can teach a CA. That officially is supposed to take no time. But I'd also like to teach him to flank, and work with the party rogue to flank and/or trip opponents to enable sneak attacks, too.

the optimizer in me wants to also just adapt his "attack" trick, so that he flanks when there is an opportunity. That might take some time and Handle Animal rolls.

I think perhaps that delaying the dog being able to trip is also about game balance, and keeping this druid from breaking the first level game we just started playing. (Dog's natural armor plus dex and barding makes him higher AC than our party tank, so far. But that's mostly because the tank can't afford good armor yet.)

[Troacctid]

Did you take into account that animal companions gain bonus tricks based on your effective druid level?

I believe there is a "flank" trick in a supplement as well, although I'm AFB so not sure where. Complete Adventurer maybe? Edit: Complete Adventurer has the "assist attack" trick that lets you command an animal to flank the target and use the aid another action to improve your attack.

Also note that riding dogs are not normally proficient with armor, so they will take attack penalties for some kinds of barding.

[Jeff the Green]

Did you take into account that animal companions gain bonus tricks based on your effective druid level?

I believe there is a "flank" trick in a supplement as well, although I'm AFB so not sure where. Complete Adventurer maybe? Edit: Complete Adventurer has the "assist attack" trick that lets you command an animal to flank the target and use the aid another action to improve your attack.

Also note that riding dogs are not normally proficient with armor, so they will take attack penalties for some kinds of barding.

There is a trick for armor proficiency in Masters of the Wild.

[Hiro Quester]

CA isn't available to us (Core, plus PH2, DMG2 and Stormwrack), so "assist attack" isn't available, officially. I'm trying to persuade DM to let me train him to do it anyway.

He only has leather barding. The penalty for using armor in which u are not proficient is that you take the ACP on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks. But leather armor has no ACP, so he's okay.

[Jeff the Green]

CA isn't available to us (Core, plus PH2, DMG2 and Stormwrack), so "assist attack" isn't available, officially. I'm trying to persuade DM to let me train him to do it anyway.

You should definitely be able to. The tricks in the skill description are explicitly examples of what you can teach them, and the ones in splat books just further demonstrate the sort of things tricks should be able to do.

[Troacctid]

Indeed. The Handle Animal skill description prefaces its list of tricks with an "including but not limited to" disclaimer.

[Hiro Quester]

Yep, I didn't even need to point out the "not limited to" nor mention the CA trick as an example.

DM just replied that he'd consider tripping the bonus skill for AC (after one day training with party members); he needs someone to learn on.

He also said he considers flanking to be a natural attack style in wild creatures that hunt as packs. So if I use Speak with Animals while training, I'll be able to explain to the dog that our party is his "pack". A week's training with the party rogue and fighter and he can learn (adjust his "attack" command) to help the fighter or rogue flank, if possible, when he is told to attack.

So tripping after one more day adventuring, and flanking with a week's training.

Thanks for helping me make the case everyone.