Dark Sun (Pathfinder)

[LordErebus12]

So i'm gonna run a pathfinder game for 6 players in the next few months after the current game ends. We've decided that Athas would be a neat choice setting.

They're into the concept of a post-apocalyptic wasteland with psionics in higher usage. This is their first time trying out Dark Sun, ftr.

Im allowing anything drawn from the following sources, since I own physical copies for in-game reference: Core Rulebook, Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Psionics, and Path of War. If Akashic Mysteries comes out soon, I'll allow material from those sources, since it looks awesome. Im also hoping that pharaoh class they teased comes out soon in full soon.

The classes allowed, as well as any changes:



Classes Allowed
Classification
Changes Made
Skill/Proficiency
Changes
Typical
Allegiances


Aegis
Psionic
N/A
N/A
The Will and The Way


Cryptic
Psionic
N/A
N/A
The Will and The Way


Dread
Psionic
N/A
N/A
The Will and The Way


Marksman
Psionic
N/A
N/A
The Will and The Way


Psion
Psionic
N/A
N/A
The Will and The Way


Psychic Warrior
Psionic
N/A
N/A
The Will and The Way


Soulknife
Psionic
N/A
N/A
The Will and The Way


Tactician
Psionic
N/A
N/A
The Will and The Way


Vitalist
Psionic
N/A
N/A
The Will and The Way


Wilder
Psionic
N/A
N/A
The Will and The Way


Alchemist
Divine

The alchemist gains the bard’s list of skills, as well as skill points per level as a bard (6 + Int modifier).
Sorcerer-Kings or Merchant Guilds


Cleric
Divine
Must take an elemental domain/ subdomain.
Favored weapons are based on the city of origin.
Elemental Planes


Druid
Divine
Must select an appropriate animal companion for the setting.
N/A
The Natural World, Other Druids, Preservers


Inquisitor
(Re-fluffed as Templars)
Divine
They must prepare their spells ahead of time, instead of spontaneous casting from the entire list.
N/A
Sorcerer-Kings, Other Templars


Oracle
Divine
N/A
N/A
Varies, typically none


Ranger
Divine
Must select an appropriate animal companion for the setting.
N/A
Varies


Magus
Arcane
Must choose between preserving and defiling.
N/A
Varies, typically defilers have none, while preservers often group together


Summoner
Arcane
Must choose between preserving and defiling.
N/A
Varies, typically defilers have none, while preservers often group together


Witch
Arcane
Must choose between preserving and defiling.
N/A
Varies, typically defilers have none, while preservers often group together


Wizard
Arcane
Must choose between preserving and defiling.
N/A
Varies, typically defilers have none, while preservers often group together





Classes Allowed
Classification
Changes Made
Skill/Proficiency Changes
Disciplines
Available
Refreshing Maneuvers


Barbarian
Initiator
(Warder’s progression for maneuvers known maneuvers readied and stances)
Gains Dazzling Display as a bonus combat feat at 1st level. Furthermore, you gain a bonus on intimidate checks equal to 1/2 initiator level.

You can use maneuvers, the skills that modify them, and stances while raging, despite the fact that they might normally not be allowed while raging.
Gains all skills associated with his chosen disciplines.
Broken Blade (Acrobatics)
Golden Lion (Diplomacy)
Primal Fury (Survival)
Thrashing Dragon (Acrobatics)
By performing a Dazzling Display, you recover a number of maneuvers equal to your charisma modifier (min 2).

Otherwise, by spending a swift action, you can recover 1 maneuver.


Cavalier
Initiator
(Warder’s progression for maneuvers known maneuvers readied and stances)
Gains Mounted Combat as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if they don't meet all prerequisites.

Uses kanks as mounts, instead of horses.
Gains all skills associated with his chosen disciplines.
Golden Lion (Diplomacy)
Iron Tortoise (Bluff)
Scarlet Throne (Sense Motive)
Solar Wind (Perception)
Whenever you successfully use mounted combat to block an attack against your mount or whenever you score a successful critical hit against the target of your challenge, you recover a number of maneuvers equal to your intelligence modifier (min 2).

Otherwise, by spending a swift action, you can recover 1 maneuver.


Fighter (Re-fluffed as Gladiators)
Initiator
(Warlord’s progression for maneuvers known maneuvers readied and stances)
You lose your fighter bonus feat at 1st level.
Gains Dazzling Display as a bonus combat feat at 1st level.
They can swap out any of their fighter bonus feats each day, as long as all their feats prerequisites are all still met after the changes.
Increasing skill points to 4 + Int Modifier (per level).
Gains all skills associated with his chosen disciplines.
Broken Blade (Acrobatics)
Golden Lion (Diplomacy)
Iron Tortoise (Bluff)
Primal Fury (Survival)
Scarlet Throne (Sense Motive)
Thrashing Dragon (Acrobatics)
By performing a Dazzling Display, you recover a number of maneuvers equal to your intelligence, wisdom, or charisma modifier (whichever is higher, min 2).

Otherwise, by spending a swift action, you can recover 1 maneuver.


Ninja
(Re-fluffed as Assassins)
Initiator
(Stalker’s progression for maneuvers known maneuvers readied and stances)
You lose access to the Ninja trick: vanish.

In its place, you gain a bonus supernatural stance called 'vanish' at 1st level. You can initiate this special stance as a swift action, which functions like the invisibility spell, which lasts until you break the stance's effect (see invisibility spell) or change stances.

You can activate this stance a number of times per day equal to your charisma modifier. Alternatively, you can spend 1 ki point to activate the stance, even if you've reached your daily use limit.
Gains all skills associated with his chosen disciplines.

Proficient with all exotic weapons.
Black Seraph (Intimidate)
Broken Blade (Acrobatics)
Scarlet Throne (Sense Motive)
Steel Serpent (Heal)
Veiled Moon (Stealth)
Whenever you are in your vanish stance, you recover a number of maneuvers per round equal to your charisma modifier.

Otherwise, by spending a swift action, you can recover 1 maneuver.


Rogue
Initiator
(Stalker's progression for maneuvers known maneuvers readied and stances)
You gain the 'hide in plain sight' ability at 1st level, usable only in desert terrain.
Gains all skills associated with his chosen disciplines.
Broken Blade (Acrobatics)
Primal Fury (Survival)
Scarlet Throne (Sense Motive)
Steel Serpent (Heal)
Veiled Moon (Stealth)
Whenever you successfully use stealth to avoid detection or deal sneak attack damage with an attack, you recover a number of maneuvers equal to your intelligence modifier (min 2).

Otherwise, by spending a swift action, you can recover 1 maneuver.


Stalker
Initiator
N/A
N/A
Broken Blade (Acrobatics)
Solar Wind (Perception)
Steel Serpent (Heal)
Thrashing Dragon (Acrobatics)
Veiled Moon (Stealth)
N/A


Warder
Initiator
N/A
N/A
Broken Blade (Acrobatics)
Golden Lion (Diplomacy)
Iron Tortoise (Bluff)
Primal Fury (Survival)
N/A


Warlord
Initiator
N/A
N/A
Golden Lion (Diplomacy)
Primal Fury (Survival)
Scarlet Throne (Sense Motive)
Solar Wind (Perception)
Thrashing Dragon (Acrobatics)
N/A



Any advice? Suggestions? Campaign Concepts?

[Elricaltovilla]

When you say the fighter, cavalier, ninja, rogue etc. Are initiators "as stalker/warder/warlord" what exactly does that mean? I assume they get the maneuvers known/readied/stances of said class, but what about their maneuver recovery? That's tied pretty intrinsically to each initiator's unique class features, so how are you handling that?

EDIT: I'd like to say though, that I really like your campaign setting and that you're bringing all this stuff together. I wish I could join it :smallbiggrin:

[LordErebus12]

When you say the fighter, cavalier, ninja, rogue etc. Are initiators "as stalker/warder/warlord" what exactly does that mean? I assume they get the maneuvers known/readied/stances of said class, but what about their maneuver recovery? That's tied pretty intrinsically to each initiator's unique class features, so how are you handling that?

EDIT: I'd like to say though, that I really like your campaign setting and that you're bringing all this stuff together. I wish I could join it :smallbiggrin:

Basically, the initiator classes function as stalker/warder/warlord in regards to the number of maneuvers/stances known, maneuvers prepared and maneuver recovery, but have access to a different set of disciplines.

Edit: perhaps each class should have its own method of recovery, though. Maybe the fighter (gladiator) recovers by using performance combat feats? Maybe the barbarian recovers through an intimidating roar/cry? Rogues might recover maneuvers if they successfully use stealth to move... while ninjas might make a series of lightning quick flourishes. Cavaliers might refresh through a handle animal/ride check...

[Thealtruistorc]

Basically, the initiator classes function as stalker/warder/warlord in regards to the number of maneuvers/stances known, maneuvers prepared and maneuver recovery, but have access to a different set of disciplines.

Edit: perhaps each class should have its own method of recovery, though. Maybe the fighter (gladiator) recovers by using performance combat feats? Maybe the barbarian recovers through an intimidating roar/cry? Rogues might recover maneuvers if they successfully use stealth to move... while ninjas might make a series of lightning quick flourishes. Cavaliers might refresh through a handle animal/ride check...

Why not try these? I made them a while back for this purpose: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?379057-Proposed-Path-of-War-2-Archetypes

This whole concept looks fantastic! I also wish I could be part of your party.

[Elricaltovilla]

Basically, the initiator classes function as stalker/warder/warlord in regards to the number of maneuvers/stances known, maneuvers prepared and maneuver recovery, but have access to a different set of disciplines.

Edit: perhaps each class should have its own method of recovery, though. Maybe the fighter (gladiator) recovers by using performance combat feats? Maybe the barbarian recovers through an intimidating roar/cry? Rogues might recover maneuvers if they successfully use stealth to move... while ninjas might make a series of lightning quick flourishes. Cavaliers might refresh through a handle animal/ride check...

Mmkay that's what I figured. I think it'd be great to give each class a unique recovery method, but that could be a good bit of work. If I were to make suggestions, it'd be something like this:


1. Barbarian- Full Round Action, using Dazzling Display (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dazzling-display-combat) feat, with circumstance bonus to Intimidate equal to 1/4 IL
2. Cavalier- Recover 1 maneuver each time they successfully negate an attack using Mounted Combat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/mounted-combat-combat---final) Feat (grant them Mounted Combat at level 1). It's a non action so they can consistently recover every round, maybe give a circumstance bonus equal to Initiating Modifier on the check.
3. Fighter- Use something similar to 3.5's warblade recovery, Swift+Full Attack action, does not have to hit targets.
4. Ninja/Rogue- Full Round Action, go invisible (as vanish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/vanish)) for 1 round/level and recover Initiating Modifier maneuvers.

[ghanjrho]

Your Inquisitor entry is off. Inquisitors do (normally) cast spontaneously, but they do not know their entire list. Now, I do think that making them prepare in exchange for knowing their entire spell list is perfectly fair (though you might perhaps have to adjust spells per day), but they do not normally operate under a best of both worlds system.

Have you given any thoughts to ACG content? Really, most of the classes in there would work well. The gods don't seem to be as active in Dark Sun, so maybe nix the Warpriest (though if you don't, I strongly encourage you to adjust their spell list. An option that I like is to give them the first 6 levels of the cleric list, plus the paladin and antipaladin lists, governed by alignment). Arcanist and Bloodrager would choose between preserver and defiler, and convert the Swashbuckler, Brawler and Slayer to initiators. Possibly:

Brawler: Broken Blade, Thrashing Dragon, Iron Tortoise
Slayer: Thrashing Dragon, Steel Serpent
Swashbuckler: Scarlet Throne, Primal Fury, Golden Lion

[Phelix-Mu]

Alright, I really like what the OP is doing here. Although I know little of PF, Dark Sun has been my favorite setting fluff-wise for several editions now, even though I've not played in it proper since 2e (and that was a bit of a hash, to be honest). But I've always ported large bits of their fluff/races/classes into my custom setting, and I probably was an Athasian halfling druid in another lifetime; I'll seriously never get tired of playing them. Back in 2e, Dark Sun was the only world where halfling druids existed, and that was probably the start of my love affair with the place.

Anyway, best of luck. Athas.org has been a good resource for me in the 3e environment, and might have some fluffy resources that you can transplant into your PF rendition.

Out of curiosity, which version of defiling rules are you using? Is there even one out there for PF? Cause I was pretty unimpressed by the Dragon Magazine feat that was published, and would be interested in how you are going to model that style of casting mechanically. It's obviously one of the turning points of the setting, and it's a shame that it hasn't been given a more functional and fluff-accurate treatment in 3e.

[LordErebus12]

updated the table a bit.

[Oracle_of_Void]

Why are the alchemists listed as divine? I don't they are strictly arcane, but certainly not divine.

[Elricaltovilla]

I looked over the changes you made and I think you're on the right track, but you might want to refine things a bit.

First things first: Initiation Modifier. Each initiating class has one, it affects a number of things: save DCs, several class abilities and most importantly maneuver recovery. The only one of your classes that recovers maneuvers like that is the Barbarian, whom you've tied his maneuver recovery to CON. For your classes, I'd recommend making the Initiation Modifiers as such:

1. Barb- CHA (Intimidate synergy),
2. Cavalier- INT or CHA (Int mostly for variety, CHA for class ability synergy)
3. Fighter- Pick from INT, WIS, CHA at creation (they're more general, so should have a little freedom)
4. Ninja- CHA (Ki pool synergy)
5. Rogue- INT (Skills synergy, Ki pool synergy if they take that trick)

Now, some nitpicks with your class recovery systems:

1. Cavalier- Recovery not tied to any Initiating Modifier, and Critical Hit recovery. At least Crit recovery is in addition to other stuff, but this should be tied to a single stat so that they don't end up shorted on recoveries.
2. Fighter- too limiting, standard attack+move action prevents movement and full attacks, leaving them open for punishment. In addition, recover 1 maneuver? That's pathetic.
3. Ninja/Rogue- vanish isn't a stance, its a Ki trick, meaning it costs a daily resource, which is a big no no. That's why I suggested giving them a Full Round Action to recover Initating Modifier maneuvers (min 2) and as a bonus, a free casting of vanish. The way you have it written now, they have to spend multiple rounds doing nothing in order to gain back maneuvers, and nobody should be forced out of the fight for more than 1 round, if that.

My only other suggestion right now is to give Rogues Thrashing Dragon instead of Scarlet Throne. It offers better synergy with TWF and opens up thrown weapons as an option as well. I think it fits better with the rogue, and helps differentiate them from the Ninja.

[Xsatra]

I'm a bit curious about how you intend to deal with the scarcity of magic items in the Dark Sun setting. PF tends to assume that you have magic items in line with your WBL, while Dark Sun throws WBL to the wind.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'm a bit curious about how you intend to deal with the scarcity of magic items in the Dark Sun setting. PF tends to assume that you have magic items in line with your WBL, while Dark Sun throws WBL to the wind.

Also supply of metal weapons can make mundane v caster conflicts even worse. Traditional Athas has little in the way of any of the unusual metals, with many races eking out an existence with bone, obsidian, and stone weapons, and hide armours. Really makes spellcasting look even more attractive when you can't even lay hands on a greatsword.

[LordErebus12]

Also supply of metal weapons can make mundane v caster conflicts even worse. Traditional Athas has little in the way of any of the unusual metals, with many races eking out an existence with bone, obsidian, and stone weapons, and hide armours. Really makes spellcasting look even more attractive when you can't even lay hands on a greatsword.

The trade off, in my mind is that all non-casters gain maneuvers and stances. They become far more useful without fancy weapons, since they can still contribute to combat in a meaningful way.

Edit: I've changed how maneuvers could function.

Assassin (Ninja): Whenever you are in your 'vanish' stance, you recover a number of maneuvers per round equal to your charisma modifier.
Barbarian: By performing a Dazzling Display, you recover a number of maneuvers equal to your charisma modifier (min 2).
Cavalier: Whenever you successfully use mounted combat to block an attack against your mount or whenever you score a successful critical hit against the target of your challenge, you recover a number of maneuvers equal to your intelligence modifier (min 2).
Gladiator (Fighter): By performing a Dazzling Display, you recover a number of maneuvers equal to your intelligence, wisdom, or charisma modifier (whichever is higher, min 2).
Rogue: Whenever you successfully use stealth to avoid detection or deal sneak attack damage with an attack, you recover a number of maneuvers equal to your intelligence modifier (min 2).

Alternatively, all new initiator classes can spend a swift action to recover a single maneuver.

[Arbane]

Seems kind of rude to force fighters to take Dazzling Display, though.

Possibly, use the old Warblade recovery method? (If they make a full-attack or spend a round showing off, they get back X maneuvers.)

[Elricaltovilla]

I agree with Arbane about the fighters, and I guess Barbarians (although I think it makes more sense for them, and you could just give them the bonus feat at level 1).

I'm still confused by what you mean by "vanish stance" for ninjas. I think there's some miscommunication going on between us?

Using Stealth in combat is extremely tricky, although sneak attacking to recover maneuvers is nice. Maybe they could use the claim mechanic similar to the Soul Hunter Stalker Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/stalker/stalker-archetypes/soul-hunter-stalker-archetype)?

EDIT: Also, all initiators can already recover a single maneuver as a standard action. So if you're upgrading this to a swift, it shouldn't just apply to the new guys. I'd also recommend against it as it pretty much negates the opportunity cost of choosing between an attack and recovering a maneuver.

[Ssalarn]

@ the OP

I read your post, just wanted to note that the Vizier from Akashic Mysteries is both up for sale and already posted to d20pfsrd.com.

Somewhat interestingly, my iconic Vizier was playtested in a very Dark Sun-like world and served the same basic role as the templars do in that setting. The akashic races currently available for playtest are aimed at desert environments primarily as well.

[Xsatra]

I think you should probably let gladiator be an archetype. There are plenty of fighters in Athas that aren't gladiators, like caravan guards, mercenaries, raiders, city guards etc.
There is an existing gladiator archetype in Ultimate Combat, though you should probably expand upon it as it doesn't do a whole lot.

I'm also going to echo Phelix-Mu's earlier recommendation to check out Athas.org. They have a conversion of Dark Sun for 3.5 which shouldn't be too difficult to port to Pathfinder.
In fact, here: Dark Sun 3.5 (http://www.athas.org/products/ds3/documents/109). It should at least give you some inspiration and some ideas for how to handle certain elements of the setting.

[LordErebus12]

I'm still confused by what you mean by "vanish stance" for ninjas. I think there's some miscommunication going on between us?

EDIT: Also, all initiators can already recover a single maneuver as a standard action. So if you're upgrading this to a swift, it shouldn't just apply to the new guys. I'd also recommend against it as it pretty much negates the opportunity cost of choosing between an attack and recovering a maneuver.

Instead of getting a ki ability that grants invisibility for 1 round, you get a class specific stance, which allows you to turn invisible until you make a hostile action or switch stances. I dont understand whats so difficult to imagine about that... its use-limited, but better than the vanish ki ability.


@ the OP

I read your post, just wanted to note that the Vizier from Akashic Mysteries is both up for sale and already posted to d20pfsrd.com.

Somewhat interestingly, my iconic Vizier was playtested in a very Dark Sun-like world and served the same basic role as the templars do in that setting. The akashic races currently available for playtest are aimed at desert environments primarily as well.

I dont know how well Viziers will work at filling that roll. Furthermore, I haven't even acquired Path of War yet, let alone Akashic Mysteries. I ordered PoW, but it takes DCP/Paizo forever to ship it. I dont allow material that isn't right in front of us on the bookshelf.


I think you should probably let gladiator be an archetype. There are plenty of fighters in Athas that aren't gladiators, like caravan guards, mercenaries, raiders, city guards etc.
There is an existing gladiator archetype in Ultimate Combat, though you should probably expand upon it as it doesn't do a whole lot.

I'm also going to echo Phelix-Mu's earlier recommendation to check out Athas.org. They have a conversion of Dark Sun for 3.5 which shouldn't be too difficult to port to Pathfinder.
In fact, here: Dark Sun 3.5 (http://www.athas.org/products/ds3/documents/109). It should at least give you some inspiration and some ideas for how to handle certain elements of the setting.

I'll take a look at the Gladiator archetype in a bit.

As for Athas.org... I've looked at it before and I am going to use parts of their work, but am otherwise unimpressed with their gladiator and defiling rules.

[Ssalarn]

I dont know how well Viziers will work at filling that roll. Furthermore, I haven't even acquired Path of War yet, let alone Akashic Mysteries. I ordered PoW, but it takes DCP/Paizo forever to ship it. I dont allow material that isn't right in front of us on the bookshelf.



4E used the Warlock chassis for the templars, so Vizier clicks into that same basic role very well. You just refluff akasha as the arcane power the god-kings stuff into their servants. I just got my print copy of Path of War from Paizo, so hopefully yours shows up soon! As to the question "Why is a DSP author ordering DSP books on the Paizo site?", I subscribed to Path of War on Paizo back before I started writing Akashic Mysteries :P

[LordErebus12]

4E used the Warlock chassis for the templars, so Vizier clicks into that same basic role very well. You just refluff akasha as the arcane power the god-kings stuff into their servants. I just got my print copy of Path of War from Paizo, so hopefully yours shows up soon! As to the question "Why is a DSP author ordering DSP books on the Paizo site?", I subscribed to Path of War on Paizo back before I started writing Akashic Mysteries :P

hmm, I'll look into making a mid level character and see for myself.

[Blackhawk748]

Personally i would always give characters the option to Defile, as if they dont choose you get 2E Dark sun, which is great in pretty much every regard, except for the Defiling rules. Personally letting them always have that option open will make them more inclined to try it every now and again...... and again and again...........

[LordErebus12]

Personally i would always give characters the option to Defile, as if they dont choose you get 2E Dark sun, which is great in pretty much every regard, except for the Defiling rules. Personally letting them always have that option open will make them more inclined to try it every now and again...... and again and again...........

Yeah, you can always choose to either preserve or defile, but eventually you will favor one over the other. Once it gets out that you are a defiler, the title tends to stick, even if you never again defile.