Speculation Druid 20 VS Fighter 20 [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Pramxnim

2014-11-16, 05:23 PM

I had an opportunity to conduct a mock fight between two level 10 characters, one of which was a Circle of the Moon Druid. It's incredibly hard to take them down even without them resorting to spells, and most of the time they'll just win the war of attrition.

My character was a Human Barbarian 6/Rogue 4 who can Sneak Attack every round with Reckless Attack and who can grapple anything not immune to it thanks to Expertise on Athletics and Rage. Armed with a +1 Rapier, she had a +10 to hit, 2 attacks at 1d8+8 Piercing damage per attack, as well as 2d6 Sneak Attack damage that can be applied. Against Wild Shape's typical low AC, she can hit twice every round for an average of 26 damage.
With Bear totem Rage, my Barbarian only took 1/2 damage from the Druid's attacks. Even then, I could only take him down if he chose a form that could be grappled (i.e. Earth Elemental). Once the Druid adopts Fire Elemental form, it becomes impossible to win the war of attrition since the Druid can just heal up damage by burning spell slots while dealing reliable damage with the Fire Elemental's property. This is at level 10, with the Druid agreeing to not cast spells during the fight.

Now, for the level 20 version of the fight:

Without touching on the Fighter's optimization, as a Druid, I would build a Hill Dwarf that starts with:
10 Str
14 Dex
16 Con
10 Int
16 Wis
8 Cha
From point buy, then have +4 Con and +4 Wis from Ability Score Improvements, plus the feat War Caster. This Druid has, on average:
20 x 5 (Con) + 20 (Hill Dwarf) + 5 x 20 (Avg HP on a D8) + 3 (Max HP at 1st level) = 223 Hp

With Hide Armor, a Shield and 14 Dex, he has 16 AC, and has a 15% chance to dodge a Fighter's attack in Dwarf form.
The druid has a +2 bonus to Initiative, compared to the Fighter's +0 to +7 (depending on whether he chooses to put 14 in Dex or take the Alert feat), so depending on how the Fighter specs, the Druid could end up going second a fair amount of the time.

If given no prep time before the fight, the Druid won't be able to rely on Foresight, but he can cast Shapechange to turn into one of 3 CR 20 creatures: an Ancient Brass Dragon, an Ancient White Dragon or a Pit Fiend. It can also transform into the very menacing CR 19 Balor, which has guaranteed damage. Every one of these forms have a high Con save (+12 for Balor, +13 for Pit Fiend, +14 for the Dragons), and high AC (19 or 20), so it's reasonable to assume that the Druid can maintain these forms, especially with Advantage on the saving throw granted by War Caster (which can negate the Disadvantage imposed by the feat Mage Slayer that the Fighter most likely has).

Not even counting the infinite HP pool granted by Wild Shape and the Fire Elemental form which has guaranteed damage to whittle away at the Fighter, the Druid can end the fight against a Great Weapon Fighter just by Shapechanging into a Dragon and fly above the Fighter while biting and clawing at him from out of his reach. I've already listed how the Druid can easily make a saving throw against the Fighter's attacks (which deal 2d6+6 damage each, or 13 damage, which any of the above CR 20 creatures can make without even trying).

In the worst, worst case scenario for the Druid, the Fighter wins initiative, runs up to him and uses Action Surge to get 8 attacks on him. That's 16d6 + 48 damage, or a maximum of 144 damage, not enough to kill him in one shot. The only way to kill the Druid in one shot is for all of them to crit and for the Fighter to roll max damage on all but one or two of those attacks. Then, the druid simply needs to move back 5 ft, triggering an Attack of Opportunity that he can soak up with no problem whatsoever, cast Shapechange into a Dragon, and fly up to safety. Every round thereafter, he can swoop down with his 80 ft fly speed, attack the fighter from 10 ft away, then fly up again out of reach. This is not to mention the Fighter needs to save against the Dragon's Frightful Presence and contend with its Breath Weapon. The Fighter cannot possibly escape on foot since he only has 30 to 35ft movement speed max, and he can never reach the Dragon to attack.

EDIT: I just saw JoeJ's post, and I agree that if the Fighter gets the jump on the Druid, he can use Great Weapon Master's +10 damage to possibly kill the Druid in one round. He can also add up to 6d12 damage to his attacks with Superiority Dice (he needs to hit on 6 out of 8 attacks, or 75% of them). However, his accuracy suffers a lot if he uses GWM.
The Fighter has +12 bonus to hit, which is an 85% chance to hit the Druid, but if he uses Great Weapon Master, that decreases the chance to 60%. He still needs really good rolls to one shot the Druid. If he fails to do so, then as I outlined above, the Druid can kite him forever and win the fight that way.

numerek

2014-11-16, 05:49 PM

I think earth elemental would be better, same hitpoints better ac. damage doesn't really matter since the strategy is to wear down the fighter.

This largely is affected by how much preparation the druid has, with foresight the druid can have advantage on initiative, and the fighter definitely can't gain advantage on attack rolls against the druid and would under normal circumstances have disadvantage on its attack rolls. Regenerate 1 hour no concentration grants even more hitpoints a turn. Freedom of Movement 1 hour non concentration that can help against grappling shenanigans. Heroes' feast effects last 24 hours and helps against the nova round damage some people are hoping for also adds some immunities. longstrider 1 hour non concentration.

One doesn't have to one-round the mammoth, just bring it within one hit of death then next round hit it and one-round the druid. Still no easy job

As for that even if the druid can't wild shape while wild shaped he can burn spell slots to heal as a bonus action and burn spells slots to heal as a regular action.

As for casting during combat, the conjure woodland beings I believe can be exploited.

An eldritch knight would have some chance to dispel and counter the druids magic, but the druid could also dispel the EK's magic so no haste. And it is a low percentage chance the EK can dispel foresight or counter other high level spells, and will run out of spells slots pretty fast.

As for stats, feats, skills, assume max wisdom, not to many feats help a lot but here are some that provide something, mobility, warcaster to maintain concentration, inspiring leadership could help vs nova round, lucky is universally good, alert to help with initiative. I think it safe to assume 16 constitution and 16 dexterity as no other stats help druids much. which gives 163 hp in druid form and 15 ac. athletics and acrobatics could help vs grappling.

Naanomi

2014-11-16, 05:49 PM

That depends on whether your DM rules the druid can wildshape into a different wileshape form (and thus refresh mammoth), or has to revert first. But even if the druid has to revert first, he can just continuously hold an action to wildshape mammoth until he starts a round with near-full HP, then cast a single 7th, 8th, or 9th level spell that will probably come close to ending the fight. The fighter has to either win initiative or be able to one-round the mammoth in order to have a chance.
Readying an action takes your action for the turn, so a druid continually waiting to turn back into a mammoth isn't doing anything else of interest. Still, a fighter is hard pressed to kill the druid even if he breaks the mammoth state with attacks available still; and this is discounting spells

Perseus

2014-11-16, 07:34 PM

Does the fighter even have a "capstone"?

Though re-rolling 3 saves per day is pretty damn good.

Exactly.

I did a small house rule that actually makes re-rolling the saves worth it...

When you do the rerolls they are constitution saves. There was a feat in 3.5 that let you add your con mod to will saves so this should be right up everyone's ally.

silveralen

2014-11-16, 09:14 PM

Okay, which type of druid. Moon druid? Probably not. Foresight+earth elemental is just too much HP+AC to overcome in a round. Eldritch knight has a decent shot if he can dispel foresight, whittle down the HP of the creature, then nova with action surge. Battle master can as well, whittle monster HP down, then use feint+trip+action surge+whatever other damage boosting maneuvers you have. The fact we are limited to a +1 weapon really huts fighter, if the weapon were even on par with the stuff from the low level adventure path it wouldn't be nearly as difficult. If either can actually win initiative an the druid doesn't walk around in earth elemental form they could do so much easier.

There aren't a ton of good ways to actually kill a lvl 20 moon druid 1v1. In a group setting it becomes much easier to focus the druid down.

Exactly.

I did a small house rule that actually makes re-rolling the saves worth it...

When you do the rerolls they are constitution saves. There was a feat in 3.5 that let you add your con mod to will saves so this should be right up everyone's ally.

You could just give the fighter what amounts to legendary saves and I doubt people would be overly upset.

Eslin

2014-11-16, 09:16 PM

To all those postulating the fighter getting the jump on the druid, keep in mind it's a level 20 druid with unlimited wildshape - it probably spends most of its time as a nondescript animal, and if its expecting a fight (which it should be since the fighter is) it's probably several kilometres in the air.

Exactly.

I did a small house rule that actually makes re-rolling the saves worth it...

When you do the rerolls they are constitution saves. There was a feat in 3.5 that let you add your con mod to will saves so this should be right up everyone's ally.

It let you replace them, actually, but still I like the idea a lot, might borrow it.

silveralen

2014-11-16, 09:23 PM

Perseus

2014-11-16, 09:34 PM

You could just give the fighter what amounts to legendary saves and I doubt people would be overly upset.

Actually, yeah that's simpler and gives the fighter something awesome that no other PC can replicate easily.

It let you replace them, actually, but still I like the idea a lot, might borrow it.

Borrow away, make it legendary saves though. Legendary Saves is a great upgrade.

Eslin

2014-11-16, 09:36 PM

Actually, yeah that's simpler and gives the fighter something awesome that no other PC can replicate easily.

Borrow away, make it legendary saves though. Legendary Saves is a great upgrade.

I like a chance of failure and reroll based on your constitution is nice and high, probably sticking with it - giving them other advantages, if it were just making one change to the fighter then I'd straight up give them legendary saves.

JoeJ

2014-11-16, 09:49 PM

Foresight literally prevents surprise, meaning you can't ambush one regardless. You could win initiative, but you can't surprise one.

Foresight prevents surprise for 8 hours, but you can only cast it once every 24 hours. It also prevents you from casting Shapechange, Storm of Vengeance, or True Resurrection that day.

Perseus

2014-11-16, 09:50 PM

I like a chance of failure and reroll based on your constitution is nice and high, probably sticking with it - giving them other advantages, if it were just making one change to the fighter then I'd straight up give them legendary saves.

Yeah, I'm replacing Indomitable with Legendary Saves. No reroll of anything like that.

Perseus

2014-11-16, 09:53 PM

Foresight prevents surprise for 8 hours, but you can only cast it once every 24 hours. It also prevents you from casting Shapechange, Storm of Vengeance, or True Resurrection that day.

Why would the druid need to cast shape change or true resurrection?

Resurrection is cheating nature and shape change is kinda redundant.

I'll give you Storm of Vengeance but there is a ton of other things that can replace the other two spells.

Eslin

2014-11-16, 10:15 PM

Why would the druid need to cast shape change or true resurrection?

Resurrection is cheating nature and shape change is kinda redundant.

I'll give you Storm of Vengeance but there is a ton of other things that can replace the other two spells.

Resurrection is not cheating nature, it's a druid spell. It's clearly fine. Is making animals intelligent, changing weather or causing crops to grow better cheating nature? No.

Death may be natural but that doesn't mean it's a good thing - getting injured is natural, and druids can still heal wounds.

Perseus

2014-11-16, 10:40 PM

Resurrection is not cheating nature, it's a druid spell. It's clearly fine. Is making animals intelligent, changing weather or causing crops to grow better cheating nature? No.

Death may be natural but that doesn't mean it's a good thing - getting injured is natural, and druids can still heal wounds.

Druid spells copy what nature can already do (smarter animals is like allowing the animals to evolve until they are smart) they don't really break from nature.

Minor wounds are fine to heal (HP damage before death) you are just speeding up the natural process with spells. Copying lightning bolts or the forms of animals is fine too, you aren't breaking nature, just copying it or molding yourself to emulate it.

I've never liked Druids getting resurrection spells. Nature doesn't allow you to be reborn so a druid should not either. Ressurection on the druid list just never sat well with me.

JoeJ

2014-11-16, 10:46 PM

Why would the druid need to cast shape change or true resurrection?

Resurrection is cheating nature and shape change is kinda redundant.

I'll give you Storm of Vengeance but there is a ton of other things that can replace the other two spells.

How is Shapechange redundant? You seriously can't think of a reason a druid would want to turn into any CR 20 creature that isn't undead or a construct while retaining all their class features?

And if it's not okay for druids to cast True Resurrection, why is it on the druid spell list?

Perseus

2014-11-16, 10:53 PM

How is Shapechange redundant? You seriously can't think of a reason a druid would want to turn into any CR 20 creature that isn't undead or a construct while retaining all their class features?

And if it's not okay for druids to cast True Resurrection, why is it on the druid spell list?

You don't need shape change, plus if it becomes permanent you may or may not have to hand over your character sheet*. Also, you can pick up another spell and still have the "I turn into a big monster and punch you in the face" ability. Plus wildshape isn't *concentration* and is a bonus action.

You can use that slot for other stuff instead of doubling up on an ability you already have that is already pretty awesome.

Obviously the game designers think differently than me, doesn't mean I have to like it or allow it in my games. I think ressurection is on the druids list because it was on there before. Plus they are pretty afraid of shaking things up so its no surprise that they didn't take any chances on taking it off the Druid list.

Edit: May be thinking true polymorph or whatever. But the redundancy is still there.

Eslin

2014-11-16, 10:53 PM

Druid spells copy what nature can already do (smarter animals is like allowing the animals to evolve until they are smart) they don't really break from nature.
So many things wrong with that. Animals don't become smarter - it's conceivable that their ancestors could be more intelligent, but 'nature' doesn't make an animal smarter. And animals don't evolve until they're smart - there would need to be intense selective pressure towards intelligence for a long time for a species to be of human like intelligence, and that species certainly wouldn't be the same shape as the animal you just awakened. An animal's mind and body reflect each other - you wouldn't get just one changing in nature. Either way you look at it, it's unnatural.

Minor wounds are fine to heal (HP damage before death) you are just speeding up the natural process with spells. Copying lightning bolts or the forms of animals is fine too, you aren't breaking nature, just copying it or molding yourself to emulate it.

I've never liked Druids getting resurrection spells. Nature doesn't allow you to be reborn so a druid should not either. Ressurection on the druid list just never sat well with me.

Yet druids also get regenerate, and I'm pretty sure humans can't regrow limbs. Druids are not a reflection of the natural world, druids are casters that are in tune with it, who understand and can therefore change and manipulate it. As such, they're masters of the body - they can heal, regrow and change bodies, why can they not flat out bring life back to them?

As a side note, your logic undercuts itself. You claim awaken makes sense because they could 'evolve until they're smart' (intelligence costs energy, creatures only adapt for intelligence if doing so is a great enough benefit), but this is not the creature changing, it is the creature's descendents. If a spell representing a long line of descendents (new life) is allowed to change a creature, then why can't the same logic apply to resurrecting it? If you can change a creature based on the fact that its descendents may change, why can't you bring a creature to life on the grounds that its descendents will be alive?

Obviously the game designers think differently than me, doesn't mean I have to like it or allow it in my games. I think ressurection is on the druids list because it was on there before. Plus they are pretty afraid of shaking things up so its no surprise that they didn't take any chances on taking it off the Druid list.
They shook a lot up, look at what a bard can do with spells now. The reason druids can bring people back is that there is no reason they shouldn't be able to do so - out of all the resurrection spells, the druid's reincarnation is by far my favourite. This isn't a legacy thing, druids and bringing people to life don't clash thematically at all.

Perseus

2014-11-16, 11:05 PM

So many things wrong with that. Animals don't become smarter - it's conceivable that their ancestors could be more intelligent, but 'nature' doesn't make an animal smarter. And animals don't evolve until they're smart - there would need to be intense selective pressure towards intelligence for a long time for a species to be of human like intelligence, and that species certainly wouldn't be the same shape as the animal you just awakened. An animal's mind and body reflect each other - you wouldn't get just one changing in nature. Either way you look at it, it's unnatural.

Yet druids also get regenerate, and I'm pretty sure humans can't regrow limbs. Druids are not a reflection of the natural world, druids are casters that are in tune with it, who understand and can therefore change and manipulate it. As such, they're masters of the body - they can heal, regrow and change bodies, why can they not flat out bring life back to them?

As a side note, your logic undercuts itself. You claim awaken makes sense because they could 'evolve until they're smart' (intelligence costs energy, creatures only adapt for intelligence if doing so is a great enough benefit), but this is not the creature changing, it is the creature's descendents. If a spell representing a long line of descendents (new life) is allowed to change a creature, then why can't the same logic apply to resurrecting it? If you can change a creature based on the fact that its descendents may change, why can't you bring a creature to life on the grounds that its descendents will be alive?

Actually, healing as we know it, is a form of regeneration. However the regeneration is very very limited. The druid enhances the ability to heal.

Yeah, they speed up evolution and transfer it to the current animal. You are taking the potential for the animal and enhancing it through excellerated evolution... Or you can just say you are taking nature's design and speeding it up. It isn't full proof but it does explain it.

The only thing in the game that a druid can do that is not emulating or copying nature is ressurection. Nothing in nature outside of spells by the gods and such brings creatures back to life (phoenix downs only gets rid of the knocked out condition not death :p).

Everything can be explained easily but resurrection. The only reason they have it is because of old cows and such. It is the outlier.

Edit:

Bards...

Actually all they did was automatically give Bards a very common 3.5 prestige class. Many bard builds in 3.5 had full 9th level casting. Bards haven't changed that much from 3.5.

JoeJ

2014-11-16, 11:09 PM

You don't need shape change, plus if it becomes permanent you may or may not have to hand over your character sheet*. Also, you can pick up another spell and still have the "I turn into a big monster and punch you in the face" ability. Plus wildshape isn't *concentration* and is a bonus action.

You can use that slot for other stuff instead of doubling up on an ability you already have that is already pretty awesome.

Obviously the game designers think differently than me, doesn't mean I have to like it or allow it in my games. I think ressurection is on the druids list because it was on there before. Plus they are pretty afraid of shaking things up so its no surprise that they didn't take any chances on taking it off the Druid list.

Edit: May be thinking true polymorph or whatever. But the redundancy is still there.

You can't Wildshape into a dragon, or a planetar, or a pit fiend. Wildshape is limited to a CR 6 beast. Shapechange lets you become a CR 20 anything except construct or undead. It can't become permanent, but you can use an action to assume a new shape any time you want during the spell's duration.

Eslin

2014-11-16, 11:11 PM

Actually, healing as we know it, is a form of regeneration. However the regeneration is very very limited. The druid enhances the ability to heal.

Yeah, they speed up evolution and transfer it to the current animal. You are taking the potential for the animal and enhancing it through excellerated evolution... Or you can just say you are taking nature's design and speeding it up. It isn't full proof but it does explain it.

The only thing in the game that a druid can do that is not emulating or copying nature is ressurection. Nothing in nature outside of spells by the gods and such brings creatures back to life (phoenix downs only gets rid of the knocked out condition not death :p).

Everything can be explained easily but resurrection. The only reason they have it is because of old cows and such. It is the outlier.

That's not speeding up evolution though. Intelligence isn't some natural endpoint, creatures evolve and become a little smarter if their environment demands it, and if that intelligence is using up more energy than it is worth they become less intelligent. And if they become intelligent to such an absurd degree, their body naturally changes with it. Compare us to even close relatives like chimpanzees and you'll see a dozen ways in which intelligence has shaped our bodies - permanently changing an animal's mind to such a degree without changing their body is precisely the same as doing the reverse.

If there was a spell with which you could target an animal and make it bipedal, slower, give it a larger head with no fangs and uncouple its ribcage, remove its claws and give it fingers instead, but left it at its present intelligence, would you think that was an acceptable druid spell? Because it's the logical flipside of awaken.

Regarding copying nature - they start off with shillelagh and produce flame. What in nature hits things with tools, and what in nature throws fire at people from its hands?

Eslin

2014-11-16, 11:13 PM

JoeJ

2014-11-16, 11:18 PM

The only thing in the game that a druid can do that is not emulating or copying nature is ressurection.

Mending. Shillelagh. Detect Magic. Faerie Fire. Flame Blade. Heat Metal. Locate Object. Dispel Magic. Protection from Energy. Speak with Plants. Polymorph. Wall of Fire. Antilife Shell. Geas. Planar Binding. Reincarnate. Conjure Fey. Find the Path. Plane Shift. Reverse Gravity.

Perseus

2014-11-16, 11:26 PM

You can't Wildshape into a dragon, or a planetar, or a pit fiend. Wildshape is limited to a CR 6 beast. Shapechange lets you become a CR 20 anything except construct or undead. It can't become permanent, but you can use an action to assume a new shape any time you want during the spell's duration.

I said shape change is redundant not "wildshape is a perfect replica of shape change".

You don't really need shape change, pick a different spell for maximum efficiency. Wildshape is powerful enough (Moon druid) already.

It is like... Having Levitate and Spider Climb. You don't really need to learn both. Generally spider climb will get you where you need to go so why grab levitate also? Sure levitate can get you places spider climb can't but having both is redundant.

Plus wildshape is powerful and at-will (infinite HP), save the spell slot for something you need.

Eslin

2014-11-16, 11:31 PM

I said shape change is redundant not "wildshape is a perfect replica of shape change".

You don't really need shape change, pick a different spell for maximum efficiency. Wildshape is powerful enough (Moon druid) already.

It is like... Having Levitate and Spider Climb. You don't really need to learn both. Generally spider climb will get you where you need to go so why grab levitate also? Sure levitate can get you places spider climb can't but having both is redundant.

Plus wildshape is powerful and at-will (infinite HP), save the spell slot for something you need.

And shapechange might be something you need. You might be a land druid with crap wildshaping, but even if you aren't a moon druid's ability to constantly shapeshift into a CR 6 animal fills a very different niche than the ability to turn into a pit fiend or dragon.

Perseus

2014-11-16, 11:32 PM

Really? Because they can cast animate dead, contagion, fireball, true polymorph and teleport these days.

Anything not on the Bard's list was easily UMD or grabbed with splats. Plus again, the Bard was getting 9th level spells from outside the Bard list.

Mending. Shillelagh. Detect Magic. Faerie Fire. Flame Blade. Heat Metal. Locate Object. Dispel Magic. Protection from Energy. Speak with Plants. Polymorph. Wall of Fire. Antilife Shell. Geas. Planar Binding. Reincarnate. Conjure Fey. Find the Path. Plane Shift. Reverse Gravity.

Three big ones and I'm done with this, if you can't wrap your head around something... It isn't my responsibility to do it for you.

Flame Blade: Emulating Nature (setting something on fire)

Polymorph: Emulating Nature, maybe not material plane all the time but nature none the less.

Reincarnate: Don't like it just like ressurection.

Bonus: Reverse Gravity: Noooo gravity isn't a natural phenomenon that the druid is emulating at all!

The only thing the druid isn't emulating or copying from nature is ressurection spells (including reincarnate but I figured that was a given... Didn't think I would have to spell that one out).

Eslin

2014-11-16, 11:42 PM

Anything not on the Bard's list was easily UMD or grabbed with splats. Plus again, the Bard was getting 9th level spells from outside the Bard list.

Three big ones and I'm done with this, if you can't wrap your head around something... It isn't my responsibility to do it for you.

Flame Blade: Emulating Nature (setting something on fire)

Polymorph: Emulating Nature, maybe not material plane all the time but nature none the less.

Reincarnate: Don't like it just like ressurection.

Bonus: Reverse Gravity: Noooo gravity isn't a natural phenomenon that the druid is emulating at all!

The only thing the druid isn't emulating or copying from nature is ressurection spells (including reincarnate but I figured that was a given... Didn't think I would have to spell that one out).

Reverse gravity: reversing a natural phenomenon. Raise dead: reversing a natural phenomenon.

Well, a natural occurrence anyway. It's not an actual law, and unlike gravity hopefully we'll some day be rid of it.

Side note: UMDing and using one specific prestige class to grab some of those spells does not mean that's what a bard was, any more than a paladin is a caster of wizard spells who can dispel magic rather than cure disease, for all that mystic fire knight was the best way to build one.

JoeJ

2014-11-16, 11:44 PM

Three big ones and I'm done with this, if you can't wrap your head around something... It isn't my responsibility to do it for you.

Flame Blade: Emulating Nature (setting something on fire)

Polymorph: Emulating Nature, maybe not material plane all the time but nature none the less.

Reincarnate: Don't like it just like ressurection.

Bonus: Reverse Gravity: Noooo gravity isn't a natural phenomenon that the druid is emulating at all!

The only thing the druid isn't emulating or copying from nature is ressurection spells (including reincarnate but I figured that was a given... Didn't think I would have to spell that one out).

So... reversing gravity is emulating nature but reversing death isn't? And polymorphing? Nature changes people into animals of their choice? I notice, too, that you didn't say anything about Mending, which reverses entropy just like True Resurrection, or Dispel Magic, or Plane Shift.

If you don't like certain spells, that's fine. Don't cast them. When you DM you can ban them if you want. Within the topic of this thread, however, Shapechange, Storm of Vengeance, and True Resurrection are 9th level druid spells that must be considered along with Foresight as legitimate possibilities for the single 9th level slot. Shapechange, in particular, is arguably a better choice than Foresight if the druid doesn't know when (or if) the fight is going to take place.

Perseus

2014-11-16, 11:49 PM

Reverse gravity: reversing a natural phenomenon. Raise dead: reversing a natural phenomenon.

Well, a natural occurrence anyway. It's not an actual law, and unlike gravity hopefully we'll some day be rid of it.

So you really think I have a problem with resserection but not raise dead? Good spell for a blighter though (anti-druid who hates nature and had a clause in their PRC that made them lose their PRC lol).

I'm not even sure how gravity works in the d&d worlds but again EMULATING or COPYING nature is fine. Doing something that nature does not is not fine. I'm not sure why grasping this continues to be an issue...

Plane Shifting? Depends on the setting but there are D&D worlds where the plans come close together and you can travel from one to another naturally.

Eslin

2014-11-16, 11:52 PM

So you really think I have a problem with resserection but not raise dead? Good spell for a blighter though (anti-druid who hates nature and had a clause in their PRC that made them lose their PRC lol).

I'm not even sure how gravity works in the d&d worlds but again EMULATING or COPYING nature is fine. Doing something that nature does not is not fine. I'm not sure why grasping this continues to be an issue...

Plane Shifting? Depends on the setting but there are D&D worlds where the plans come close together and you can travel from one to another naturally.

You're not copying nature with reverse gravity. Gravity only goes one way in nature, all mass attracts other mass and you're somehow reversing that, which is far more unnatural than just having someone who was alive alive once more. Again, reverse gravity's somehow fine but reverse death isn't?

TheOOB

2014-11-17, 01:58 AM

Considering that D&D is not built for level 20 one on one duels between PC's, deciding who would win in a fight isn't a good comparison. Yes the Moon Druids capstone of conditional infinate hp is good, really good even, but D&D is about overcoming tough encounters as a party and not about tanking obscene amounts of potential damage.

Druids are not the best damage dealers in the game, their late damage comes mostly from spells, which they have a limited amount of and are not as efficient at removing threats as arcane spells for the most part. Further, while they themselves are quite difficult to kill(by no means impossible), they only have limited resources to keep their allies from getting killed.

Fighters are the most sustainable class in the game, they are extremely tough, and put out very high consistent damage, and as long as they get the occasional short rest, they are good all day. While it's true they don't get a strong capstone, fighters are not about capstones or overwhelming abilities, they are about consistency and efficiency. While other classes power level flucuates over the course of encounters/days/levels/ect, fighters stay fairly consistant.

Ashrym

2014-11-17, 02:19 AM

Really? Because they can cast animate dead, contagion, fireball, true polymorph and teleport these days.

They could do that in previous editions too. In 3.5 it was via PrC's and in 2e it was because they used a standard wizard list.

Bards are full progression casters in 5e because the only other option was to put them on the ranger / paladin spell progression, which was traditionally far more restricted than bards had ever been.

Other than 3.x, bards had almost the same spell levels as clerics in each edition, and in 3.5 the attempt was made to make up the difference with a lot of spell-like abilities in the songs. Rangers and paladins had much lower level spells and restricted caster levels so in the split they were closer to clerics and druids, and are able to be built using styles from various editions.

As it is, they usually just add what other classes already have while those classes increase in effectiveness with spells instead. It's not like bards get empowered evocation or natural recovery, as examples. They get abilities for skills and inspiration while other casters get abilities that work more with the spells.

3.5 spell substitution was popular for bards and there isn't anything really different in that regard

Back on topic, the fighter needs to lure the druid into a more confined space to limit wildshape options. Then he might be able to overcome the hit point advantage as damage over the shape carries over to the druid. That's not something I would be confident in, however.

Eslin

2014-11-17, 05:44 AM

They could do that in previous editions too. In 3.5 it was via PrC's and in 2e it was because they used a standard wizard list.

Bards are full progression casters in 5e because the only other option was to put them on the ranger / paladin spell progression, which was traditionally far more restricted than bards had ever been.

Other than 3.x, bards had almost the same spell levels as clerics in each edition, and in 3.5 the attempt was made to make up the difference with a lot of spell-like abilities in the songs. Rangers and paladins had much lower level spells and restricted caster levels so in the split they were closer to clerics and druids, and are able to be built using styles from various editions.

As it is, they usually just add what other classes already have while those classes increase in effectiveness with spells instead. It's not like bards get empowered evocation or natural recovery, as examples. They get abilities for skills and inspiration while other casters get abilities that work more with the spells.

3.5 spell substitution was popular for bards and there isn't anything really different in that regard

Back on topic, the fighter needs to lure the druid into a more confined space to limit wildshape options. Then he might be able to overcome the hit point advantage as damage over the shape carries over to the druid. That's not something I would be confident in, however.

It's not just 3.x, they were pretty much just leaders in 4e. Even in 3.x they couldn't cherry pick the best spells from every class - and they had options other than to lump them in with rangers/paladins, they could have given them level 6/7 total casting and had every level count as 2/3 as opposed to rangadin's 1/2 or eldritch trickster's 1/3. I'm just glad they didn't and made them full casters instead.

Galen

2014-11-17, 01:50 PM

I don't know of any fighter builds that can 1-round a mammoth with any degree of consistency.You have got to be kidding. How about ... almost all of them? A mammoth has 126 hit points and AC 13, which is no big deal for a fighter attacking 8 times per round with Action Surge. A plain Greatsword with GWM, and 8 attacks due to Action Surge, will do the trick pretty much regardless of anything else. I'm not even bothering with Battlemaster superiority dice or EK spells, just attack 8 times with GWM ...

MaxWilson

2014-11-17, 01:57 PM

You have got to be kidding. How about ... almost all of them? A mammoth has 126 hit points and AC 13, which is no big deal for a fighter attacking 8 times per round with Action Surge. A plain Greatsword with GWM, and 8 attacks due to Action Surge, will do the trick pretty much regardless of anything else. I'm not even bothering with Battlemaster superiority dice or EK spells, just attack 8 times with GWM ...

Yes, 8 * (8.33 + 5 + 10 + 8.33/20) * (26 - 13)/20 = 123.5, so the fighter nova has about a 50% chance to one-shot the Mammoth. Battlemaster superiority dice would boost that to near-certainty, as would EK spells or the Lucky feat.

However, Nova != consistency.

Perseus

2014-11-17, 02:01 PM

You're not copying nature with reverse gravity. Gravity only goes one way in nature, all mass attracts other mass and you're somehow reversing that, which is far more unnatural than just having someone who was alive alive once more. Again, reverse gravity's somehow fine but reverse death isn't?

That isn't what she said ;)

Also, the reverse gravity is only going one way, the Druid is emulating gravity and having the area be attracted to another celestial body (depending on the setting).

Again spells that copy or emulate nature is fine. Gravity exist in nature (and may or not really exist as we know it) but reversing death is not shown in nature. In nature gravity goes one way but so does reverse gravity, you are using magic to make gravity pull one way, which just happens to be the opposite way that it is pulling at the moment.

If all gravity went the same way then you would have a hell of a lot of problems...

Good plot hook though, you are in a dying solar system because everything is slowly being pulled toward the material plane because it is the only source of gravity in the solar system (or at least the strongest) due to some BBEG doing a ritual.

Galen

2014-11-17, 02:05 PM

Nova != consistency.
It's not even nova, it's something he can do twice per encounter. Ok, I get it, Druid 20 with his ability to shift into anything he bloody wants as many times as he bloody wants is more consistent. But there's this tendency to write off the fighter too quick. "oooh, look, a mammoth, the fighter is a goner!"

Yes, mammoth. A bag of 126 hp and poor AC. Big deal. Not trying to diss on the druid here, he will probably win at the end, but surely not with primitive tactics such as "I'm a mammoth, deal damage to me!"

Perseus

2014-11-17, 02:12 PM

It's not even nova, it's something he can do twice per encounter. Ok, I get it, Druid 20 with his ability to shift into anything he bloody wants as many times as he bloody wants is more consistent. But there's this tendency to write off the fighter too quick. "oooh, look, a mammoth, the fighter is a goner!"

Yes, mammoth. A bag of 126 hp and poor AC. Big deal. Not trying to diss on the druid here, he will probably win at the end, but surely not with primitive tactics such as "I'm a mammoth, deal damage to me!"

It isn't even just that, how does the fighter find the druid, how does the fighter reach the druid (great weapon was the original fighter type), and how does the fighter counter spells? Indomitable sucks as written and the Druid just has more versatility than poor old fighter.

Which sucks because you could make a fantastic fantasy fighter and yet they are unwilling, unable, or too afraid to do as much.

Z3ro

2014-11-17, 02:13 PM

The answer to taking down the druid at level 20 is not the fighter, but like most spellcasters, the monk. High level monk spams stunning strike and takes the druid down without allowing them to even act.

Pramxnim

2014-11-17, 02:20 PM

I think this thread has been quite derailed by now. We've got people talking about what spells make sense for a druid to have, after all. While that is a fascinating topic by itself, it's not the topic that was up for discussion in the first place. If you guys could kindly take that discussion to its own thread, that would be awesome.

Back on topic, is no one else going to comment on how the Fighter expects to deal with a Druid Shapechanging into a CR 20 monster? I outlined in my post why I thought it is futile for a Great Weapon Master Fighter to try to take on a level 20 Druid by himself. Does anyone agree or disagree with what I wrote?

Also, to answer Galen: I think Mammoth is just the default form people think of because it's the highest CR beast available to the Druid. However, I believe a Fire Elemental is actually the optimal choice for a Druid (that is only using Wild Shape) to chip away at the Fighter's health. Every turn, the Druid can move into the Fighter's space for a guaranteed 1d10 Fire Damage, and every time he gets hit by the Fighter's attack, he deals another 1d10 Fire Damage to the Fighter. Add to that another 1d10 Fire damage at the start of the Fighter's turn, and the damage really starts to rack up.

Z3ro

2014-11-17, 02:27 PM

Also, to answer Galen: I think Mammoth is just the default form people think of because it's the highest CR beast available to the Druid. However, I believe a Fire Elemental is actually the optimal choice for a Druid (that is only using Wild Shape) to chip away at the Fighter's health. Every turn, the Druid can move into the Fighter's space for a guaranteed 1d10 Fire Damage, and every time he gets hit by the Fighter's attack, he deals another 1d10 Fire Damage to the Fighter. Add to that another 1d10 Fire damage at the start of the Fighter's turn, and the damage really starts to rack up.

Fire elemental gives up too much defense for not enough offense. With only a 13AC and 102HP, the fighter easily drops the druid back to human with damage to spare in a single action surge, potentially killing the druid if the fighter rolls well on damage or crits a couple times. The second actions surge seals the deal.

silveralen

2014-11-17, 02:27 PM

If you assume advantageous situations for the Druid (starts the battle buffed and shifted) I wouldn't 1v1 him with any class except a monk, and even that's kinda iffy.

Perseus

2014-11-17, 02:41 PM

If you assume advantageous situations for the Druid (starts the battle buffed and shifted) I wouldn't 1v1 him with any class except a monk, and even that's kinda iffy.

Well even not buffed but shifted is a good assumption.

If you can at-will bonus action wildshape is there any reason not be be wildshaped?

You may not always have haste or whatever up but wildshape has no reason to not be on unless you specifically want to give others an advantage.

The Druid has to find (insert race fighter) but the Fighter had to find a chipmonk, a mammoth, perhaps a giraffe? Who knows.... The Fighter finally figures out that giraffes aren't native to this region, comes over a small hill, and all he sees is a flock of birds flying off into the distance.

But here is a good way to look at it.

Which class needs more optimization or focus for to win this battle if it was to go down. The Druid can just be a moon druid while the Fighter would have to specifically pick out and build himself to be a druid killer.

Druid: Perception Skill, Moon Druid (everything else is gravy)

Fighter: Nature Skill (hey that type of bird isn't native...), Perception Skill (hard to kill something if you can't see the Pink Mammoth in the room), Battle master Fighter, Needs +1 Sword/+1 Bow (original said +1 great sword I think), higher than average damage rolls... Am I missing anything?

Z3ro

2014-11-17, 03:11 PM

Fighter: Nature Skill (hey that type of bird isn't native...), Perception Skill (hard to kill something if you can't see the Pink Mammoth in the room), Battle master Fighter, Needs +1 Sword/+1 Bow (original said +1 great sword I think), higher than average damage rolls... Am I missing anything?

Or just ritual caster with the divination spell. Not exactly a huge leap for a class with feats to spare.

Pramxnim

2014-11-17, 03:12 PM

Fire elemental gives up too much defense for not enough offense. With only a 13AC and 102HP, the fighter easily drops the druid back to human with damage to spare in a single action surge, potentially killing the druid if the fighter rolls well on damage or crits a couple times. The second actions surge seals the deal.

The fighter can only Action Surge twice per encounter. A Hill Dwarf Druid can potentially have 223 Hp. He won't go down just from one Fire Elemental dying. In the meantime, the Fighter has also taken a ton of backlash damage from attacking the Fire Elemental. Alternatively, the Druid could start in Earth Elemental form, which is tankier than a Mammoth (126 Hp, 17 AC vs. 126 Hp, 13 AC) and comparable damage. If the Fighter does not use Action Surge against the Druid in one of those 2 forms, then he is already losing. Once the Fighter has exhausted his nova potential, the Druid assumes Fire Elemental form and whittles him down.

Actually, as I was writing this and looking up stats, I just noticed that the Fire Elemental isn't that different from a Mammoth in terms of tankiness. 102 HP vs. 126 HP is only about 1 or 2 hits difference. Meanwhile, the Fire Elemental does massively more damage than a Mammoth. There's almost no reason to go Mammoth over Fire Elemental against a melee Fighter. If the Fighter was ranged, then the Druid would need some adjustments to his strategy, but it's really easy to handle a melee Fighter.

If you assume advantageous situations for the Druid (starts the battle buffed and shifted) I wouldn't 1v1 him with any class except a monk, and even that's kinda iffy.

Actually, in my mock fight simulation, I assumed the Fighter got the drop on the Druid. He wins initiative and is in range of the unbuffed Druid in his natural form (a Hill Dwarf in my example) and cannot down the Druid in one turn. The Druid then proceeds to move away and Shapechange into a Dragon. It's trivial for the Druid's new form to make Concentration checks. It takes a Fighter rolling near max damage on a crit to even cause the Druid to have a chance to drop out of Dragon form. Meanwhile, the Fighter is fighting 1v1 against a CR 20 monster, a challenge worthy of at least 4 equal level adventurers. There is no way he can win that fight alone.

silveralen

2014-11-17, 03:13 PM

If the druid doesn't have foresight it is actually doable. An action surging great weapon fighter has (if every attack hits) an average damage around 200, and with battle master can guarantee advantage pretty easily, with which he has a 85% accuracy versus a mammoth and a 75% accuracy versus the earth elemental (this is just with a +1 great sword, something most people have before hitting double digit levels I might add). Add in the superiority dice as well and he can blow through the temp HP and hit the druid for a solid 40-50 damage. This isn't a druid killing build either, just a normal fighter. An optimized version might have grabbed hex via the magic initiate feat, the extra damage helps, the fighter has yet to use his bonus action, and you can apply disadvantage to a save which helps ensure your maneuvers go off and you get advantage

Archer is another option, eldritch knight helps the most here I'd say, it lets you grab advantage from greater invisibility, or just stack more attacks with haste. Beyond that change it's about the same as the above.

Now, an optimized build for taking on a moon druid would be one focused on burst damage, which basically means not a single class fighter. I'm of the opinion the last three levels of fighter aren't worth it anyways, so i say 17/3. A fighter (eldritch knight) 17/Paladin (vengance) 3 stands a good shot and is hardly a druid killer build, it's fighter sacrificing some sustained damage for burst. Which is what he benefits from the most here. Hasted you can drop 7 smites (21d8) after you mark them as your sword foe to gain advantage for a comfy 300ish damage nova. That's a build optimized to go against druids, by burning through almost everything in one round.

Galen

2014-11-17, 03:38 PM

A Hill Dwarf Druid can potentially have 223 Hp. He won't go down just from one Fire Elemental dying.So, now we're optimizing the Druid so he can better survive against the Fighter. If nothing else, that's significant progress compared to 3.5 :smallbiggrin:

Perseus

2014-11-17, 03:46 PM

Or just ritual caster with the divination spell. Not exactly a huge leap for a class with feats to spare.

So in order for the fighter to do 1 of 3 items they need to resort to magic haha... Back to 3.5 again I guess.

The only thing to beat magic is magic because everyone else is under a glass ceiling.

Perseus

2014-11-17, 03:55 PM

So, now we're optimizing the Druid so he can better survive against the Fighter. If nothing else, that's significant progress compared to 3.5 :smallbiggrin:

Choosing a good race for the druid isn't exactly optimization....

:smallbiggrin:

Z3ro

2014-11-17, 04:00 PM

So in order for the fighter to do 1 of 3 items they need to resort to magic haha... Back to 3.5 again I guess.

The only thing to beat magic is magic because everyone else is under a glass ceiling.

Yeah, except that every class in this edition gets easy access to magic. It's baked into this edition, not some patch to address a problem. Heck, the fighter has a whole subclass that lets them cast spells.

khachaturian

2014-11-17, 04:04 PM

so what is the fighter going to do against a flying opponent?

Sartharina

2014-11-17, 04:08 PM

Foresight literally prevents surprise, meaning you can't ambush one regardless. You could win initiative, but you can't surprise one.A Druid with Foresight is a Druid that can't use any other 9th-level spells. I'll take that deal.

Galen

2014-11-17, 04:10 PM

So in order for the fighter to do 1 of 3 items they need to resort to magic haha... Back to 3.5 again I guess.

The only thing to beat magic is magic because everyone else is under a glass ceiling.No, in 3.5 the Druid wouldn't even need to see the fighter. In 3.5 the Druid would delegate the task of fighting the Fighter to his animal companion. In 3.5 the amount of hit points the druid has would have been irrelevant, because the Druid would never get hit. Merely the fact we're actually counting the druid's hit points, goes to show how far we have come since 3.5.

Z3ro

2014-11-17, 04:13 PM

so what is the fighter going to do against a flying opponent?

Also cast fly.

Sartharina

2014-11-17, 04:20 PM

Also cast fly.That's a good way to go splat... except the druid needs to use all his actions to not get splatted himself, so the Fighter doesn't really have that fear...

Perseus

2014-11-17, 04:22 PM

Also cast fly.

And then the fighter doesn't get access to battle master for the additinal damage he will need to take out the extra HP the druid gets...

Sartharina

2014-11-17, 04:25 PM

And then the fighter doesn't get access to battle master for the additinal damage he will need to take out the extra HP the druid gets...

The Fighter doesn't need the Battlemaster's trivial damage boost.

Z3ro

2014-11-17, 04:28 PM

And then the fighter doesn't get access to battle master for the additinal damage he will need to take out the extra HP the druid gets...

Well, if the druid is flying they're either some sort of bird (very low HP, easy to kill), or an air elemental, the weakest of the various elementals. I'll take that trade off.

Ghost Nappa

2014-11-17, 04:29 PM

I think it might be an easier if we attempted to make two optimized 1v1 builds.

The answer to taking down the druid at level 20 is not the fighter, but like most spellcasters, the monk. High level monk spams stunning strike and takes the druid down without allowing them to even act.

Well actually three. I agree with Z3ro that Monk Vs. Druid is probably a better match-up for the martials than the Fighter. But let's set some ground-rules.

Assume Point-Buy. I think 4d6 drop lowest is more common overall, but the more randomized nature of the model interferes with the objectivity of the analysis. It'll be harder to tell whose winning and why: if the person whose rolls are better wins, it that from the stats or the class? The only way we'll get an answer on that question is if the build with the lower stats WINS.

It's easier and more convenient to assume the point-buy rules as both characters will be given a flat number to start with.

No multi-classing, this is 20 levels straight as per the OP.

Feats are allowed I suppose. Both characters can get them, and both benefit from their inclusion. The Fighter obviously gets more opportunities.

For now, assume no magic items or abilities provided outside racial and class abilities.

As for gold, assume...uhh...I don't know...I don't think it matters too much. At Level 20 you probably have enough gold to get whatever you're looking for. We're probably thinking in hundreds of thousands of platinum at this point if not more.

There's 12 different base match-ups here that can be pulled off from just class/subclass decisions at the moment:

2C1 Druid sub-classes vs. 3C1 Fighter sub-classes (6)
2C1 Druid sub-classes vs. 3C1 Monk sub-classes (6)

Forrestfire

2014-11-17, 04:39 PM

On the note of Druids, spells, and naturalness, how could it conceivably be argued that Resurrection is unnatural? The Positive Energy Plane is a natural thing, there are naturally-occurring creatures in the fluff that resurrect or can resurrect things, and the like. It makes perfect sense for druids, who are in tune with life and nature, to be able to channel positive energy to return someone to what their natural state (i.e. living).

Pramxnim

2014-11-17, 04:40 PM

For now, assume no magic items or abilities provided outside racial and class abilities.

The Fighter and Monk will need a magical weapon at least, otherwise the Druid can have resistance or even immunity to nonmagical damage and shut them down completely.

Z3ro

2014-11-17, 04:44 PM

The Fighter and Monk will need a magical weapon at least, otherwise the Druid can have resistance or even immunity to nonmagical damage and shut them down completely.

Well, the fighter will...

Perseus

2014-11-17, 04:51 PM

Monk isn't exactly a non-caster, just uses different magic. A more fitting option would be Rogue I guess but Alert shuts down the main damage dealer with that build.

But since the "martials" get two options so should the casters.

Perhaps a Tempest or Nature cleric?

Vogonjeltz

2014-11-17, 05:04 PM

So, a couple of friends and I have been reading the PHP, and where wondering: the Druid seems a bit weaker this time, how would a level 20 one compare to an equal leveled fighter?

They believe that the fighter would win most of the time, but I'm not conviced. Anyone here more mechanically savvy could perhaps tell us how it would work?

For the purpose of this scenario, the fighter has a +1 greatsword.

Actually, looking at the Druid capstone, and the number of hp from an Earth Elemental...how is anyone killing this solo? Unlimited turning into something with 126 hit points?

If we're talking a +1 greatsword with Fighter 20, they can get 4 attacks for 2d6+6, with an attack bonus of +12 vs AC 13 for a mammoth, or 17 earth elemental.

So, auto-hit on the mammoth, hit 75% of the time vs the elemental.
Damage is average of 13 per hit or 52 per round, excluding the possibilities of crits. It'll take the Fighter 10 hits (10th hit exceeds) on average to burn through the mammoth/elemental skin. That leaves 2 extra attacks that round to cut into the Druid's hp.

Druid has an average of 100 + conmodx20 hp, let's say it's maxed out, so 200 total hp. That last hit will on average chip away 4 hp, the two remaining attacks chip away another 26 on average for 30 damage pushing through to the Druid. If our Fighter saves his action surge for this eventuality (he should), he does another 52 for 82 damage to the Druid. If he saved his superiority dice (because why not?), he can add another 7d12 for 45.5 more damage average, bringing the total up to 121, average. Not quite enough. So the Fighter is looking at having to survive two iterations of Wildshaped Mammoth uses action surges once he knocks the Druid out of wildshape, or 6 rounds of combat.

Fighter has an AC of, let's say 18. Nonmagic armor, slightly better than the Druid. Druid has a to hit of +10 as a mammoth, so he has to beat an 8 AC. Unfortunately, he only has 1 attack. He does 1 gore, average hit of 25. If the Fighter has Heavy Armor Mastery, that's only 22. In 6 rounds he can do 132 damage. Fighter will have an average of 120 + conmodx20 hp, let's also say maxed out, so 220 hp. Fighter also has Second Wind for bonus hp of 25.5 average. His net total being 245.5;

To win this fight, the Druid needs to extend it another 5 rounds (11 rounds total).

He can try to do this by expending spell slots to heal himself, his spell slots at 20th potentially provide up to 40.5;36;31.5(x2);27(x2); 22.5 (x3); 18(x3); 13.5(x3); 9(x3); 4.5(x4) healing. Let's say he uses his best spell slots first, because they have the biggest impact (the 9th level slot almost extends the fight an entire round on its own, that's 1/5th of the way to the Druid's goal!)

So Druid has 126 hp at start.
Round 1: Druid takes 52 damage, uses bonus action to heal for 40.5; net loss 11.5; druid has 114.5
Round 2: Druid takes 52 damage, uses bonus action to heal for 36; net loss 16; Druid has 98.5
Round 3: Druid takes 52 damage, uses bonus action to heal for 31.5; net loss 20.5; Druid has 78
Round 4: Druid takes 52 damage, uses bonus action to heal for 31.5; net loss 20.5; Druid has 57.5
Round 5: Druid takes 52 damage, uses bonus action to heal for 27; net loss 25; Druid has 32.5
Round 6: Druid takes 149.5 damage, uses bonus action to return to form for 126 hp (83 real hp);
Round 7: Druid takes 52 damage, uses bonus action to heal for 27; net loss 25; Druid has 101 (83)
Round 8: Druid takes 52 damage, uses bonus action to heal for 22.5; net loss 29.5; Druid has 71.5 (83)
Round 9: Druid takes 52 damage, uses bonus action to heal for 22.5; net loss 29.5; Druid has 42 (83)
Round 10: This is the tricky round. The Fighter needs to deal 90 damage average AFTER knocking the Druid out of wildshape. So he might end up pulling his last attack, and doing only 39 damage average. Druid would be at 3 hp (83).
Round 11: If the Druid uses his bonus action to heal, he can only be at 25.5 hp. The Fighter would fall short of executing him by, on average 4.5 hp. So it's possible he could kill him, or not, depending on criticals. (Of which the Fighter will on average have 4 times as many thanks to having more attacks).

This could get swingy in other ways (if the Druid misses their attack, 40% chance) a Battlemaster gets a bonus attack on them, potentially, or just extra rounds to hammer the Druid. This is a big deal if it's on turns 5 (Druid has few hp remaining) or 10. Then the Druid might get knocked out of wildshape with substantially fewer hp. Anytime the Druid is low on wildshape hit points, it's probably in his best interest to draw an Opportunity Attack to deliberately get knocked out of wildshape, and then use his bonus action to go back into wildshape with 126 new hit points.

Also, this all changes dramatically depending on gear and feats taken and the class features the Fighter picked up (Druids being assumed to be the Moon Druid). For example, Savage Attacker + Great Weapon Fighting + Great Weapon Master would enable significantly higher damage output from the Fighter, presumably eclipsing the 4.5 average damage by quite a margin (GWM alone could net up to +40 damage per round). Polearm master is another 18.5 per round, average. So the average damage in a single round could be as high as...248 (197.375 adjusted for miss percentages) (Battlemaster nova + PM + GWM + action surge) before crits. So mammoth or fire elemental forms (13 AC!) are probably a huge mistake there, fire elemental more so as it has much fewer hit points. The fighter could potentially burn through that (hah) in one round, then execute the Druid round 2.

This is all going to be caveated that this is highly dependent on luck for both parties, and tactical/feat choices, etc...

Thoughts?

Oh, regarding shapechange, remember the Druid has to have seen whatever they want to turn into, furthermore, tactical withdrawal to force the Druid to change into something else (i.e. Move between trees such that the Druid can't return fire without becoming smaller) permanently reduces the HP of the shapechange form accordingly. So even if they can turn into a Huge creature with many hit points...if they are forced into becoming a medium sized creature by virtue of space, then they would have max hp from shapechange reduced accordingly. Also using that spell slot is an opportunity cost with healing from bonus action use of spell slots.

Actually, ideal for a Fighter here would be kiting the Druid by using a mount (for movement speed) + arrows and say, Sharpshooter for bonus damage. The damage potential is lower, but presumably the Fighter won't be taking damage as long as he can keep the distance up.

Galen

2014-11-17, 05:12 PM

Actually, looking at the Druid capstone, and the number of hp from an Earth Elemental...how is anyone killing this solo? Unlimited turning into something with 126 hit points?

If we're talking a +1 greatsword with Fighter 20, they can get 4 attacks for 2d6+6, with an attack bonus of +12 vs AC 13 for a mammoth, or 17 earth elemental.

So, auto-hit on the mammoth, hit 75% of the time vs the elemental.
Damage is average of 13 per hit or 52 per round, excluding the possibilities of crits. It'll take the Fighter 10 hits (10th hit exceeds) on average to burn through the mammoth/elemental skin. That leaves 2 extra attacks that round to cut into the Druid's hp.
Aw come on, you have to give the fighter something. Either superiority dice, or increased critical chance and self-healing due to Champion, or spells due to Eldritch Knight. Throw him a bone. He's going to be either a Battlemaster, or an Eldritch Knight, or a Champion. He literally must be one of the three.

MaxWilson

2014-11-17, 05:32 PM

Oh, regarding shapechange, remember the Druid has to have seen whatever they want to turn into, furthermore, tactical withdrawal to force the Druid to change into something else (i.e. Move between trees such that the Druid can't return fire without becoming smaller) permanently reduces the HP of the shapechange form accordingly. So even if they can turn into a Huge creature with many hit points...if they are forced into becoming a medium sized creature by virtue of space, then they would have max hp from shapechange reduced accordingly. Also using that spell slot is an opportunity cost with healing from bonus action use of spell slots.

It's not a permanent reduction in HP--they can always shapechange into something with regeneration like a Troll, and heal up to that form's max HP.

In your analysis, I didn't understand why the druid would be blowing bonus actions and 9th level spells on healing instead of just shifting to a new form for full HP.

Mobile feat is great for Mammoth druids: they can charge, gore, knock prone, trample, and back off again. It works better against monsters than against 20th level fighters but it is still one of the feats (plus Lucky) that would be high on my list. You can also use it to strafe as an Air Elemental, although again, that doesn't work as well vs. intelligent opponents. (By strict RAW it would at least prevent the fighter from Action Surging against you with melee attacks.)

Instead of using a 9th level spell slot on healing, BTW, I think the druid is better off shapeshifting into an Air Elemental and casting 9th level Call Lightning, then blasting the fighter/monk into oblivion with airstrikes.

Vogonjeltz

2014-11-17, 05:57 PM

It's not a permanent reduction in HP--they can always shapechange into something with regeneration like a Troll, and heal up to that form's max HP.

In your analysis, I didn't understand why the druid would be blowing bonus actions and 9th level spells on healing instead of just shifting to a new form for full HP.

Mobile feat is great for Mammoth druids: they can charge, gore, knock prone, trample, and back off again. It works better against monsters than against 20th level fighters but it is still one of the feats (plus Lucky) that would be high on my list. You can also use it to strafe as an Air Elemental, although again, that doesn't work as well vs. intelligent opponents. (By strict RAW it would at least prevent the fighter from Action Surging against you with melee attacks.)

Instead of using a 9th level spell slot on healing, BTW, I think the druid is better off shapeshifting into an Air Elemental and casting 9th level Call Lightning, then blasting the fighter/monk into oblivion with airstrikes.

Trolls don't have many hp, and the regen might as well not exist, they get cut down in a single round.

*wildshape is transforming from your normal form. This automatically disallows changing shape again before reverting. And reverting is your bonus action (which changing also is), so it's not possible for the moon Druid to drop form and turn in one go.

**mobile operates on opportunity attacks. Action surge has nothing to do with those.

***regarding the 9th slot, that's 40 less hp, the air elemental could get dropped in 1 round absent action surge, and the spell is dealing 49.5 damage average, but can be evaded entirely just by hiding behind a tree (a point you can't see). There are serious tactical issues with the spell.

Perseus

2014-11-17, 06:22 PM

Trolls don't have many hp, and the regen might as well not exist, they get cut down in a single round.

*wildshape is transforming from your normal form. This automatically disallows changing shape again before reverting. And reverting is your bonus action (which changing also is), so it's not possible for the moon Druid to drop form and turn in one go.

**mobile operates on opportunity attacks. Action surge has nothing to do with those.

Nothing stops a transformed druid from turning into another animal with a bonus action.

"Can't cast spells..."
"You retain the benefit of any features from your class..."

Do note that Wildshape is not a spell though it is magical. And if you couldn't use wildshape (due to being a spell) it would be a conflict with being able to revert back to normal form before your time is up.

I'm a more moderate decider, I don't lean toward favoring the players but I don't lean away from it either... And I see nothing in Wildshape that says you can't go from Bird to Chipmunk without a pit stop at your original form.

Edit:

For more fun to mess with the Fighter... The Druid could use alter self to change their appearance and then wildshape... If the fighter is able to revert them back to their normal form... Well... "This isn't the druid you are looking for" comes to mind haha...

Vogonjeltz

2014-11-17, 06:40 PM

Nothing stops a transformed druid from turning into another animal with a bonus action.

Yes nothing except this:

*wildshape is transforming from your normal form.

You can't change if you aren't already in your normal form.

Perseus

2014-11-17, 06:49 PM

Yes nothing except this:

You can't change if you aren't already in your normal form.

It doesn't say that

Wildshape "You can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before"'

Next is beast limitations and then it tells you what you gain while in wildshape...

I don't know if i'm missing something or my phb is wrong but wildshape doesn't say that "wildshape is transforming from your normal form."

Vogonjeltz

2014-11-17, 06:59 PM

It doesn't say that

Wildshape "You can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before"'

Next is beast limitations and then it tells you what you gain while in wildshape...

I don't know if i'm missing something or my phb is wrong but wildshape doesn't say that "wildshape is transforming from your normal form."

Yes exactly, if you are already in the form of a beast, you can't assume one, you're already it.

Perseus

2014-11-17, 07:01 PM

Yes exactly, if you are already in the form of a beast, you can't assume one, you're already it.

You are adding words to the RAW to make it ft your version of RAI, it does not say you have to be in your original form to use Wildshape.

silveralen

2014-11-17, 07:03 PM

I'm a more moderate decider, I don't lean toward favoring the players but I don't lean away from it either... And I see nothing in Wildshape that says you can't go from Bird to Chipmunk without a pit stop at your original form.

Okay, well yeah that's going to make it really difficult to kill the druid. Honestly, it isn't even a fighter problem, there just aren't many ways to kill something that can regenerate 120+ HP every turn no matter what.

You can completely shut down their ability to act, for which monk is the only class who seems able to do so consistently.

You can deal truly massive amounts of damage in a single turn, which is either sorcerer or some variation on fighter/paladin.

Drop a lvl 8/9 spell maybe. I say maybe because I've yet to find one that does so consistently without DM intervention. It'd be a nonstandard usage of wish, I don't see an obvious way to teleport unwilling creatures, feeblemind doesn't specifically prevent the druid from continuing to shift and it mentions a target can protect themselves/others, true polymorph can be shifted out of (unless you disallow this but not shifting between forms, which makes almost no sense), and dominate monster is targeting the druid's best ability score with advantage. So none of those is particularly ideal.

Seriously, this is a textbook case of an asinine RAW reading with zero common sense being used. The ability is broken with your interpretation. Badly. Even without that single usage it is still a very strong ability. Yet your main instance is it doesn't specifically spell out you can't.... despite the fact it specifically spells out returning to your main form and extending the duration of your animal form. Maybe the fact it doesn't mention shifting from form to form should be a clue?

MaxWilson

2014-11-17, 07:14 PM

Trolls don't have many hp, and the regen might as well not exist, they get cut down in a single round.

*wildshape is transforming from your normal form. This automatically disallows changing shape again before reverting. And reverting is your bonus action (which changing also is), so it's not possible for the moon Druid to drop form and turn in one go.

**mobile operates on opportunity attacks. Action surge has nothing to do with those.

***regarding the 9th slot, that's 40 less hp, the air elemental could get dropped in 1 round absent action surge, and the spell is dealing 49.5 damage average, but can be evaded entirely just by hiding behind a tree (a point you can't see). There are serious tactical issues with the spell.

I wanted to address this point. If you're melee-kiting as an air elemental, what you'd ideally like is for the fighter to stand there dumbly, waiting for you to swoop in, attack him, and fly away again (with no attack of opportunity thanks to Mobile). What is likely to actually happen is that the fighter will declare a held action to attack you as soon as you come into range. However, a held action (by strict raw) has to be an action or a move, and using Action Surge is neither. I'm AFB but it's possible that Action Surge has additional language about it having to be "on your turn." In this case, the lower HP of the air elemental don't matter, because without Action Surge the fighter isn't chewing through the Air Elemenal's HP in time to damage it anyway.

I don't feel the need to respond to your other points, they concern matters which are already well-understood.

Peace,
Max

archaeo

2014-11-17, 07:28 PM

You are adding words to the RAW to make it ft your version of RAI, it does not say you have to be in your original form to use Wildshape.

Actually, the useful language comes after the definition you've given:

You can stay in a beast shape for a number of hours equal to half your druid level (rounded down). You then revert to your normal form unless you expend another use of this feature. You can revert to your normal form earlier by using a bonus action on your turn. You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die.

Emphasis mine. If you use Wild Shape while in beast shape, the use of the feature only extends the length of your transformation and does not let you transform again. This is admittedly a close reading of the rules, but it's also very obviously the more "balanced" interpretation.

I'm otherwise totally nonplussed by the need to pit classes against one another, as it really doesn't say very much at all about the system. Pit them against identical monsters and groups of monsters, maybe, and you'd be saying something about D&D as it was designed to be played. No two level 20 characters are going to exist in some isolated white-room arena; at the very least, the Fighter, in this scenario, is likely to be packing quite the collection of magic items in almost any iteration of the game where all 20 levels were played.

Ashrym

2014-11-17, 08:24 PM

It's not just 3.x, they were pretty much just leaders in 4e. Even in 3.x they couldn't cherry pick the best spells from every class - and they had options other than to lump them in with rangers/paladins, they could have given them level 6/7 total casting and had every level count as 2/3 as opposed to rangadin's 1/2 or eldritch trickster's 1/3. I'm just glad they didn't and made them full casters instead.

I don't want to derail this thread because bards are off topic, so a final response on this.

There isn't much gap going from full progression to half progression because of the slower rate gain on higher level spell slots. What you describe doesn't give up a lot of casting. Making that change only promotes adding more abilities to the class progression. It doesn't matter if there are spells plus magical songs or if there are just spells to cover both, which is what full progression covers. There's no actual reason to restrict bards in that fashion when they are already restricted by class abilities focusing on skills instead of magic to put them into a secondary caster more like a cleric. That was something I also think was a good move.

Being "pretty much leaders in 4e" also left them as secondary controllers, and there were other options available. Since we've moved away from strict roles it also doesn't have much impact. It doesn't make sense to try and enforce 4e roles on bards when it's not being enforced on other classes.

The "cherry pick the best spells from every class" is hyperbole. They can add 2 spells of 5th level or lower, 2 spells of 7th level or lower, and 2 spells of 9th level or lower. Lore bards can also add 2 spells of 3rd level or lower. That's it. That's hardly the best spells from every class, and given that any 5th level spells (for example) should be the rough equivalent of another 5th level spell because spell power level is categorized that way all the ability does is add additional options and not additional power. More spells available doesn't equal more powerful spells, particularly when those spells are ranked by their relative power.

Magical secrets doesn't even put a dent in the list of non-bard spells from which to select, and often they could be simply used for bard spells. They also continue to not grant additional ability with those spells nor do they cover the class progression features in those classes that bards don't get. Magical secrets are the bard class progression abilities and that means they are missing out on something else where another class would have a benefit. Even 6 spells all from the same class is only a small portion of their lists. The only thing this ability really does is make a nicely customizable list to go with the nicely customizable skills.

The way I see some people post it looks like they think bards can cast every spell from every list just as well as those other classes.

archaeo

2014-11-17, 08:57 PM

The only thing this ability really does is make a nicely customizable list to go with the nicely customizable skills.

You know, I spent a little time looking, but I can't find a neat name to put to this particular kind of cognitive bias. People tend to give primacy to options with the fewest constraints in making future choices, often discounting the quality of these options. In the context of D&D, this often means that classes are evaluated on the basis of how many choices they can make as opposed to the content or quality of the options themselves.

It seems like there should be a nice little name for that, but gosh, I can't find it.

Druids suffer from the same problem, in many respects. The provisos hemming in Druids' power are pretty small-print -- the mechanics keeping Druids from shapeshifting while already in beast form require some real close reading to spot, and the PHB doesn't spend any time talking about how the "seen before" rule should operate in play -- but give the DM enormous latitude.

Either way, I think the playerbase has been sufficiently heated about Druids basically since the PHB was released, and I expect a fair bit of errata and clarification will be forthcoming.

MaxWilson

2014-11-17, 09:09 PM

Emphasis mine. If you use Wild Shape while in beast shape, the use of the feature only extends the length of your transformation and does not let you transform again. This is admittedly a close reading of the rules, but it's also very obviously the more "balanced" interpretation.

That doesn't follow from the quoted text. "Doing X costs Y" is not in any way equivalent to "Y may only be spent on X."

Doug Lampert

2014-11-17, 09:13 PM

Vogonjeltz

2014-11-17, 09:20 PM

I wanted to address this point. If you're melee-kiting as an air elemental, what you'd ideally like is for the fighter to stand there dumbly, waiting for you to swoop in, attack him, and fly away again (with no attack of opportunity thanks to Mobile). What is likely to actually happen is that the fighter will declare a held action to attack you as soon as you come into range. However, a held action (by strict raw) has to be an action or a move, and using Action Surge is neither. I'm AFB but it's possible that Action Surge has additional language about it having to be "on your turn." In this case, the lower HP of the air elemental don't matter, because without Action Surge the fighter isn't chewing through the Air Elemenal's HP in time to damage it anyway.

I don't feel the need to respond to your other points, they concern matters which are already well-understood.

Peace,
Max

And why wouldn't the Fighter just swap to a bow, trip the elemental (sending it crashing to the ground for falling damage as well), and then wallop on it with the greatsword?

numerek

2014-11-17, 09:21 PM

*wildshape is transforming from your normal form. This automatically disallows changing shape again before reverting. And reverting is your bonus action (which changing also is), so it's not possible for the moon Druid to drop form and turn in one go.

Moon druid gain the ability to wild shape as a bonus action it says nothing about losing the ability to wild shape as an action, so you revert as a bonus action wild shape as an action.

Eslin

2014-11-17, 09:32 PM

Bard stuff

Getting deraily, you're right, we'll discuss it next time there's a bard thread.

numerek

2014-11-17, 09:33 PM

So Druid has 126 hp at start.
Round 1: Druid takes 52 damage, uses bonus action to heal for 40.5; net loss 11.5; druid has 114.5
Round 2: Druid takes 52 damage, uses bonus action to heal for 36; net loss 16; Druid has 98.5
Round 3: Druid takes 52 damage, uses bonus action to heal for 31.5; net loss 20.5; Druid has 78
Round 4: Druid takes 52 damage, uses bonus action to heal for 31.5; net loss 20.5; Druid has 57.5
Round 5: Druid takes 52 damage, uses bonus action to heal for 27; net loss 25; Druid has 32.5
Round 6: Druid takes 149.5 damage, uses bonus action to return to form for 126 hp (83 real hp);
Round 7: Druid takes 52 damage, uses bonus action to heal for 27; net loss 25; Druid has 101 (83)
Round 8: Druid takes 52 damage, uses bonus action to heal for 22.5; net loss 29.5; Druid has 71.5 (83)
Round 9: Druid takes 52 damage, uses bonus action to heal for 22.5; net loss 29.5; Druid has 42 (83)
Round 10: This is the tricky round. The Fighter needs to deal 90 damage average AFTER knocking the Druid out of wildshape. So he might end up pulling his last attack, and doing only 39 damage average. Druid would be at 3 hp (83).
Round 11: If the Druid uses his bonus action to heal, he can only be at 25.5 hp. The Fighter would fall short of executing him by, on average 4.5 hp. So it's possible he could kill him, or not, depending on criticals. (Of which the Fighter will on average have 4 times as many thanks to having more attacks).

casting regeneration and heal would be a much better use of some of your spell slots. Also foresight gives the fighter disadvantage.

Pramxnim

2014-11-17, 11:34 PM

And why wouldn't the Fighter just swap to a bow, trip the elemental (sending it crashing to the ground for falling damage as well), and then wallop on it with the greatsword?

Because of the 4 elementals that the Druid can Wild Shape into, only the Earth Elemental is susceptible to the Prone or Grappled condition.

Vogonjeltz

2014-11-17, 11:44 PM

Moon druid gain the ability to wild shape as a bonus action it says nothing about losing the ability to wild shape as an action, so you revert as a bonus action wild shape as an action.

It says as a bonus action rather than as an action. That is replacement.

Jon D

2014-11-18, 12:39 AM

so what is the fighter going to do against a flying opponent?

Breath a sigh of relief that it's not limited to a single fighting style and pull out a long bow?

Seriously, fighters have options that are actually good now.

Eslin

2014-11-18, 01:14 AM

Breath a sigh of relief that it's not limited to a single fighting style and pull out a long bow?

Seriously, fighters have options that are actually good now.

Well... not really. They have the same options they always did, and in this case their options are dealing 1d8 damage at +6 to hit assuming they're strength/con based, or a chunk more if they're a dexterity fighter. Meanwhile the druid is hovering around as an air elemental hitting you every turn with a moonbeam for 1d10 damage per spell level used, or if facing a bow fighter has turned into something big and stompy and is punching it in the face. Though honestly I'd probably take the fly around nuking them as an air elemental option no matter what and throw out a wind wall then bombard them with cantrips.

Jon D

2014-11-18, 01:56 AM

Well... not really. They have the same options they always did, and in this case their options are dealing 1d8 damage at +6 to hit assuming they're strength/con based, or a chunk more if they're a dexterity fighter. Meanwhile the druid is hovering around as an air elemental hitting you every turn with a moonbeam for 1d10 damage per spell level used, or if facing a bow fighter has turned into something big and stompy and is punching it in the face. Though honestly I'd probably take the fly around nuking them as an air elemental option no matter what and throw out a wind wall then bombard them with cantrips.

Assuming the fighter hasn't dumped Dex, and why would you, let's say it's a +2 or 3. You can have the +5 str and great weapon style and archery style, that's going to be reliable damage, with the Champion critting on an 18-20, BM adding superiority dice, and the EK...well, nobody's perfect. Shield and some buffs will certainly drag things out.

Point being, the fighter can hurt the druid a lot, and do it consistently.

Eslin

2014-11-18, 02:24 AM

Assuming the fighter hasn't dumped Dex, and why would you, let's say it's a +2 or 3. You can have the +5 str and great weapon style and archery style, that's going to be reliable damage, with the Champion critting on an 18-20, BM adding superiority dice, and the EK...well, nobody's perfect. Shield and some buffs will certainly drag things out.

Point being, the fighter can hurt the druid a lot, and do it consistently.

You'd dump dex because with heavy armour dex ceases to contribute to your AC at all. Your typical fighter maxes strength and constitution, then goes for feats. And only the champion gets two styles, but that's ok since they're the most useless subclass, let's go with champion. The fighter will never be able to pump out enough damage to knock 90 hit points off the druid every turn, which is what you need to be doing to even hurt the druid.

I posit these scenarios, all achievable on the same day by a druid. How would you deal with any of these 5 things as a fighter? How would you deal with all 5? Keep in mind with plane shift and infinite wild shaping, the druid gets to pick the fight and choose a different tactic if the previous one did not succeed.

The druid, who has no reason not to spend his day wild shaped, is now floating say 80 feet in the air. He uses his action to cast moonbeam using let's say a sixth level spell slot, and uses his actions to move it in future, using his bonus actions to refresh wild shape and his pool of 90 ablative hit points.

If this strategy proves ineffective, he turns into an earth elemental and drops below the surface of the earth. He uses tremorsense to make sure he won't come out near you, and every turn he pops out of the ground, throws cantrips at you, and returns below ground until it's his turn again.

If this proves ineffective, he casts conjure woodland beings and has the pixies he summoned polymorph you into a penguin, and holds you still. The pixies who didn't polymorph you cast it on themselves turn into burrowing creatures (say, giant badgers and he turns himself into an earth elemental, and for the next 55 minutes digs a giant pit, puts you in a bag at the bottom of it and fills it back in again. He then dismisses the conjuration spell, casts move earth instead, and stacks a huge amount more on top of you, then turns into an earth elemental and attacks you while you're choking to death. Resisting the polymorph spells is a wisdom save by the way, and he has up to 8 available per 4th level spell slot.

If that somehow doesn't work, he relies on foresight giving him advantage on attack rolls and you disadvantage, turns into a mammoth and relies on the ability to constantly wild shape to restore hp in order to beat you in a straight fight. Keep in mind that you're getting to this point because due to his massive amount of options and ablative hp, if he screws up the above 3 steps he just needs to try something else, if you screw them up you're dead.

If you're somehow not dead he casts contagion, targeting your constitution, and proceeds to beat you to death now that you're permanently stunned.

archaeo

2014-11-18, 02:59 AM

That doesn't follow from the quoted text. "Doing X costs Y" is not in any way equivalent to "Y may only be spent on X."

You're careful reading is specifically stating that you CAN use the power while in beast form. The part you quote doesn't mention recovering HP, but it also doesn't mention what forms are available or any other limits or rules on how the power works.

As far as I can tell, a strict reading of the rules says nothing about transforming from beast form to another beast form. "You retain the benefit of any features from your class," sure, but the Wild Shape rules say nothing about using a use of Wild Shape while in beast form, only that if you use the feature while transformed, it extends the duration. The clear implication in the rules suggests that you are using the ability while in Druid form, and absent a clarification from Mearls & Co., I see no reason to question that implication.

Admittedly, I described it as "close," and it is. I would suggest that the absence of a clarification here is a flaw in the rules, but it is ambiguous enough to be a reasonable way to read the rules, especially since it prevents Archdruid from being absolutely insane rather than just the best self-healing ability in the game.

If changing form from an alternate form doesn't change HP then a druid 20 can become a sparrow with 136 HP by changing to mammoth and then changing to sparrow. That's YOUR LOGIC.

W-what? I'm not saying anything about the HP. By my reading of the rules, a level 20 Moon Druid could go from mammoth to sparrow using both a bonus action and an action, but you would end your turn with the sparrow's HP. You'd probably just want to go mammoth->Druid->mammoth though, you know, to get back to 136 HP.

Change form, change HP, that's how the power works, and you can use it while in animal form, as would be expected from the fact that it's not a spell and that non-spell class abilities explicitly work fine in wildshape.

Houserule this all you like, but it's a houserule.

I prefer to think of it more like contagion, which we know was intended in a way that certainly isn't clearly written. You can consider it a houserule if you want, but I think my ruling is closer to the designer's intent, and we'll either see errata confirming my belief or they'll just nerf it further.

Not that it matters to anybody except a level 20 Druid, who will be facing worse threats than HP damage except in silly scenarios where they're fighting a single level 20 Fighter.

Eslin

2014-11-18, 03:10 AM

I prefer to think of it more like contagion, which we know was intended in a way that certainly isn't clearly written. You can consider it a houserule if you want, but I think my ruling is closer to the designer's intent, and we'll either see errata confirming my belief or they'll just nerf it further.

Not that it matters to anybody except a level 20 Druid, who will be facing worse threats than HP damage except in silly scenarios where they're fighting a single level 20 Fighter.

Wait, how is contagion supposed to be meant other than as written? It contains like four different positive proofs, they can't have screwed up that badly by accident. They knew what they were doing, I just have no idea why they thought it was a good idea.

archaeo

2014-11-18, 03:21 AM

Wait, how is contagion supposed to be meant other than as written? It contains like four different positive proofs, they can't have screwed up that badly by accident. They knew what they were doing, I just have no idea why they thought it was a good idea.

Mearls clarified what he would rule in this tweet (https://thesageadvice.wordpress.com/2014/10/06/contagion/), the "3 failed saves, then disease takes effect" ruling. Even if you don't want to consider Mearls "I'd rule" language "RAW" enough, it's pretty obviously the only sane way to use the spell beyond banning it outright.

I can easily see a tired editor, knowing what the rules are supposed to say and skimming over this spell, seeing that things are grammatically correct without noticing how unclear it ended up. So it goes!

Eslin

2014-11-18, 05:00 AM

Mearls clarified what he would rule in this tweet (https://thesageadvice.wordpress.com/2014/10/06/contagion/), the "3 failed saves, then disease takes effect" ruling. Even if you don't want to consider Mearls "I'd rule" language "RAW" enough, it's pretty obviously the only sane way to use the spell beyond banning it outright.

I can easily see a tired editor, knowing what the rules are supposed to say and skimming over this spell, seeing that things are grammatically correct without noticing how unclear it ended up. So it goes!

Thereby sending it straight from way too good to absolutely useless. What fun. That's what annoys me most about this - A), the spell implies in two seperate places that the effects take place immediately and B) if you rule that they don't, the spell is useless.

Seriously, a 5th level spell slot that takes at a minimum 3 rounds to go into effect against a single target that you have to get into melee range for? Anything worth using it on is insanely unlikely to fail 3 constitution saves and in any case the fight will be won or lost by that point. Argh. And the only alternative to that is an instant incapacitation spell that can't be saved against, which is way too powerful.

Back on topic, does anyone want to take a crack at the druid vs fighter scenario? I've introduced 5 ways I think a druid could close to risklessly kill a fighter, would they work?

Ghost Nappa

2014-11-18, 07:38 AM

The Fighter and Monk will need a magical weapon at least, otherwise the Druid can have resistance or even immunity to nonmagical damage and shut them down completely.

A Level 6 Monk's unarmed Strikes count as magical.
I said no non-racial and non-class class abilities because I really didn't intend to bring into play equipment issues. If the Druid can be defeated by anyone with the +3 Flaming Sword of Oozkaqual, then it doesn't really count for the fighter, does it?

I will consent that it's alright to suppose the Fighter is somehow meeting the magical weapon issue. Either through his own "Magic Weapon" spell or a +1 weapon from somewhere. I just don't want people to start assuming it can create sonic booms or something.

Monk isn't exactly a non-caster, just uses different magic. A more fitting option would be Rogue I guess but Alert shuts down the main damage dealer with that build.

But since the "martials" get two options so should the casters.

Perhaps a Tempest or Nature cleric?

Monk is considered a Martial because it gets Extra Attack at Lvl 5. It's basically the anti-mage of the classes and I think it would be interesting to note whether or not it succeeds at its role where another class fails. I mention it more because I feel it was a mis-cast for the scenario. I don't think changing the druid to a cleric is going to solve or change the core issue behind the OP's comparison (Martial Vs. Caster, who wins?). Note that this is NOT necessarily the case with Monks which is SUPER-important and why I mentioned making a second comparison with them replacing the Fighter.

Perseus

2014-11-18, 07:50 AM

Actually, the useful language comes after the definition you've given:

Emphasis mine. If you use Wild Shape while in beast shape, the use of the feature only extends the length of your transformation and does not let you transform again. This is admittedly a close reading of the rules, but it's also very obviously the more "balanced" interpretation.

I'm otherwise totally nonplussed by the need to pit classes against one another, as it really doesn't say very much at all about the system. Pit them against identical monsters and groups of monsters, maybe, and you'd be saying something about D&D as it was designed to be played. No two level 20 characters are going to exist in some isolated white-room arena; at the very least, the Fighter, in this scenario, is likely to be packing quite the collection of magic items in almost any iteration of the game where all 20 levels were played.

That just mentions what happens if you let your time run out not that you normally have to revert to your normal form before wildshaping again. You can choose to use the same form with another wildshape use if you wish.

Actually that line supports that you can use wildshape while wildshaped, and not go back to your own form. It is letting people know you don't have to choose a new form when you use wildshape to stop DMs from saying you can't wildshape from Mammoth -> Mammoth without a stop at chipmunk or original form or whatever.

It would be like saying...

A wizard casts haste on themselves. Now do they have to stop concentration and go back to their normal form and then cast another concentration spell or can they just cast the new spell in which overides the old spell? The later is how it works as with wildshape (in its current written state).

I don't care which class can kill the other. My point has always been how much effort does it take one class to come close to being as good as the other. How much effort does it take the fighter to even think of matching the druid and how much non-fighter abilities must you tack on to the fighter to even find said druid.

This just shows how pitiful one class really is compared to the others a la 3.5. We are back to the "non-casters can kill but casters can do everything" issue again. The only difference now is that you don't have to optimize the crap out of the non-casters to let them keep up with the game.

Edit:

Extra attacks does not make a non-caster. Paladins and rangers are partial casters and they get extra attack. The only other non-caster in 5e thus far is the Barbarian and Rogue. Monks are "partial casters by any other name" sadly enough.

Z3ro

2014-11-18, 09:05 AM

I don't care which class can kill the other. My point has always been how much effort does it take one class to come close to being as good as the other. How much effort does it take the fighter to even think of matching the druid and how much non-fighter abilities must you tack on to the fighter to even find said druid.

This just shows how pitiful one class really is compared to the others a la 3.5. We are back to the "non-casters can kill but casters can do everything" issue again. The only difference now is that you don't have to optimize the crap out of the non-casters to let them keep up with the game.

I don't see how the druid (if you remove the infinite HP) is "doing everything" while the fighter does nothing.

Edit:

Extra attacks does not make a non-caster. Paladins and rangers are partial casters and they get extra attack. The only other non-caster in 5e thus far is the Barbarian and Rogue. Monks are "partial casters by any other name" sadly enough.

Both the barbarian and rogue (arcane trickster) can cast spells as part of their classes.

Perseus

2014-11-18, 09:12 AM

I don't see how the druid (if you remove the infinite HP) is "doing everything" while the fighter does nothing.

Both the barbarian and rogue (arcane trickster) can cast spells as part of their classes.

Do you forget about how versitile the druid really is outside of killing things?

They get them through subclasses whereas the monk gets casting as the core option. That casting is called ki. It may not be magic but it is a type of casting.

Like Incarnum isn't arcane or divine magic but they are casters.

Eslin

2014-11-18, 09:16 AM

I don't see how the druid (if you remove the infinite HP) is "doing everything" while the fighter does nothing.
He never said the fighter does nothing. He says all the fighter can do is hit and take hits, which is true, while the druid can hit, take hits better and raise the dead, control the weather, fly, heal the wounded and control the battlefield in any number of ways.

Both the barbarian and rogue (arcane trickster) can cast spells as part of their classes.
Yes, which doesn't make the barbarian a spellcaster. Being a spellcaster means massive in and out of combat utility that martials cannot match, by which metric the barbarian is not a spellcaster and arcane trickster kind of is. The more spells you have, the more use you bring to your party, so yeah while eldritch knight and ranger aren't great, at least they're something.

Z3ro

2014-11-18, 09:24 AM

Do you forget about how versitile the druid really is outside of killing things?

They get them through subclasses whereas the monk gets casting as the core option. That casting is called ki. It may not be magic but it is a type of casting.

Like Incarnum isn't arcane or divine magic but they are casters.

I didn't say the druid wasn't versatile, just that I didn't see how the fighter couldn't do anything.

He never said the fighter does nothing. He says all the fighter can do is hit and take hits, which is true, while the druid can hit, take hits better and raise the dead, control the weather, fly, heal the wounded and control the battlefield in any number of ways.

The fighter can also cast spells; I don't see how everyone keeps forgetting this.

Yes, which doesn't make the barbarian a spellcaster. Being a spellcaster means massive in and out of combat utility that martials cannot match, by which metric the barbarian is not a spellcaster and arcane trickster kind of is. The more spells you have, the more use you bring to your party, so yeah while eldritch knight and ranger aren't great, at least they're something.

I didn't say they got a lot of spells, just that they did, which they do. That makes them spellcasters. They aren't great spellcasters, but they cast spells. There is no class in the PHB which can't cast spells.

Perseus

2014-11-18, 09:49 AM

I didn't say the druid wasn't versatile, just that I didn't see how the fighter couldn't do anything.

The fighter can also cast spells; I don't see how everyone keeps forgetting this.

I didn't say they got a lot of spells, just that they did, which they do. That makes them spellcasters. They aren't great spellcasters, but they cast spells. There is no class in the PHB which can't cast spells.

You are confusing a class being a caster and a subclass being a caster.

A Fighter is not a caster unless they take the EK subclass. That subclass is the caster.

The monk is abcaster based on the class and not just the subclass.

Z3ro

2014-11-18, 10:06 AM

You are confusing a class being a caster and a subclass being a caster.

A Fighter is not a caster unless they take the EK subclass. That subclass is the caster.

The monk is abcaster based on the class and not just the subclass.

I am playing a little loose with confusing class and subclass, but it's in response to the blanket statement "fighters". If people were making that distinction (champion fighters can't cast spells, for example), I wouldn't feel the need to point this out.

Eslin

2014-11-18, 10:10 AM

The fighter can also cast spells; I don't see how everyone keeps forgetting this.

One subtype of the fighter can cast up to level 4 abjuration and evocation spells. That's not nothing, it gives them more in and out of combat utility than say a champion, but it's still many, many rungs lower down on the general usefulness ladder than the druid is.

MaxWilson

2014-11-18, 10:13 AM

And why wouldn't the Fighter just swap to a bow, trip the elemental (sending it crashing to the ground for falling damage as well), and then wallop on it with the greatsword?

Switching to a bow is a good plan (although it's only really good if you have Sharpshooter to support it, which a melee fighter might not have). In answer to your question, though, Air Elementals are immune to tripping (immune to prone) and have Hover in any case, so even if you could prone them they would not fall per the flying rules on PHB 191.

Z3ro

2014-11-18, 10:20 AM

One subtype of the fighter can cast up to level 4 abjuration and evocation spells. That's not nothing, it gives them more in and out of combat utility than say a champion, but it's still many, many rungs lower down on the general usefulness ladder than the druid is.

Plus 4 spells from any school. This gives them access to a lot of out-of-combat versatility.

MaxWilson

2014-11-18, 10:24 AM

Back on topic, does anyone want to take a crack at the druid vs fighter scenario? I've introduced 5 ways I think a druid could close to risklessly kill a fighter, would they work?

Fighter is the worst-possible opponent for Onion Druid, due to the fact that fighter specializes in removing HP, and the Onion Druid specializes in having bottomless HP. I particularly liked your "bury him deep underground" method. Yes, they would work, the fighter is dead.

That doesn't make the fighter bad, but paper covers rock here. Against something like a ghoul army, the fighter would be better.

Perseus

2014-11-18, 10:40 AM

Plus 4 spells from any school. This gives them access to a lot of out-of-combat versatility.

Ooo so amazing, good thing the opponent isn't a full caster with a good spell list... Oh wait...

Ghost Nappa

2014-11-18, 11:46 AM

Ooo so amazing, good thing the opponent isn't a full caster with a good spell list... Oh wait...

This isn't the important point of debate. This is semantics. It is a name difference between "full casters" (Bard, Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Warlock) and "everyone else", (martials, half-casters, fake-casters, other...etc.).

The distinction in their perceived power due to usefulness in previous editions is the main point of contention. Not what to call them. One common difference between them is that people who aren't getting Ninth Level spells ARE receiving multiple attacks per round.

One group has spellcasting as their main trick with other more mundane benefits like martial proficiency and physical traits supplementing their talents.

The other group has martial proficiency and physical prowess as their main trick with spellcasting supplementing their talents.

The important part to the debate in question is given equal resources, construction methodology and rules leniency, would a "full caster" win, tie, or lose to a "martial"? The examples chosen from those categories are Druid and Fighter. I believe the fight to be a mis-match, but I would much rather see an example of a Fighter built specifically to defeat a Druid vs. a Druid built specifically to defeat a Fighter OR an example of an optimized for normal gameplay Fighter vs. an optimized for normal gameplay Druid instead of the nomenclature semantics discussion.

Eslin

2014-11-18, 12:00 PM

This isn't the important point of debate. This is semantics. It is a name difference between "full casters" (Bard, Wizard, Druid, Cleric, Warlock) and "everyone else", (martials, half-casters, fake-casters, other...etc.).

The distinction in their perceived power due to usefulness in previous editions is the main point of contention. Not what to call them. One common difference between them is that people who aren't getting Ninth Level spells ARE receiving multiple attacks per round.
Or you could be a bard and get ninth level spells and four attacks per round =P

One group has spellcasting as their main trick with other more mundane benefits like martial proficiency and physical traits supplementing their talents.

The other group has martial proficiency and physical prowess as their main trick with spellcasting supplementing their talents.

The important part to the debate in question is given equal resources, construction methodology and rules leniency, would a "full caster" win, tie, or lose to a "martial"? The examples chosen from those categories are Druid and Fighter. I believe the fight to be a mis-match, but I would much rather see an example of a Fighter built specifically to defeat a Druid vs. a Druid built specifically to defeat a Fighter OR an example of an optimized for normal gameplay Fighter vs. an optimized for normal gameplay Druid instead of the nomenclature semantics discussion.
The main problem is full spellcasting flat out beats martials. A warlock, evoker or sorcerer can keep up with a martial's round to round damage, can deal far better aoe damage and on top of that have massive in and out of combat utility that martials can't approach.

Martials aren't useless any more, but for the most part there's nothing they can do which casters don't do better. The only thing they have any equality or advantage in is directly taking or dealing hp damage, and even in that respect things are a crapshoot.

MaxWilson

2014-11-18, 12:21 PM

The main problem is full spellcasting flat out beats martials. A warlock, evoker or sorcerer can keep up with a martial's round to round damage, can deal far better aoe damage and on top of that have massive in and out of combat utility that martials can't approach.

Martials aren't useless any more, but for the most part there's nothing they can do which casters don't do better. The only thing they have any equality or advantage in is directly taking or dealing hp damage, and even in that respect things are a crapshoot.

Naw. Setting warlocks aside for the moment, if you have a labyrinth full of goblins attacking you all day in little groups of twos and threes, a fighter will clean them up no sweat, but an evoker or sorcerer doesn't have a sustainable ability to kill more than one creature per turn. He will start taking damage and will eventually go down, particularly because he doesn't have the fighter's AC in the first place.

The fighter is dealing roughly 4 x (9 to 20) HP of damage per round, the evoker is dealing 1 x 27 HP of damage per round. There's a big difference in effectiveness there.

It doesn't even really need to be an all-day labyrinth full of goblins. Fifty hobgoblins spread out over a 400'x400' area will behave pretty much the same way. Spell ranges and AoEs are generally pretty tiny compared to weapon range.

Warlocks behave more like fighters here, but with worse AC.

Perseus

2014-11-18, 12:32 PM

Eslin

2014-11-18, 12:54 PM

Naw. Setting warlocks aside for the moment, if you have a labyrinth full of goblins attacking you all day in little groups of twos and threes, a fighter will clean them up no sweat, but an evoker or sorcerer doesn't have a sustainable ability to kill more than one creature per turn. He will start taking damage and will eventually go down, particularly because he doesn't have the fighter's AC in the first place. Not going to set warlocks aside for the moment, since they're quite relevant.
And goblins attacking you in little groups of twos and threes falls into the category of 'not really relevant', all the group has to do is kill one each all day long and they're fine.
The sorcerer will have eldritch blast as well because two levels of warlock are basically how you say that you're rolling a sorcerer and neither of them will be taking damage - just summon a bunch of creatures or undead minions to go first and hurt things for you if you're being accosted by small groups of minions.

The fighter is dealing roughly 4 x (9 to 20) HP of damage per round, the evoker is dealing 1 x 27 HP of damage per round. There's a big difference in effectiveness there.

It doesn't even really need to be an all-day labyrinth full of goblins. Fifty hobgoblins spread out over a 400'x400' area will behave pretty much the same way. Spell ranges and AoEs are generally pretty tiny compared to weapon range.

Warlocks behave more like fighters here, but with worse AC.
The fighter's damage (at level 20? not the best arena to pick here, since that's when casters are best) will be 9 to 20, that sounds about right, but the evoker will be dealing 48 damage a round - not quite the fighter's average of 58, but not far off it and dealt at range rather than melee. It's worth noting that despite having less hp, the wizard will have more armour - the last level or two of wizard aren't worth taking, you're better off picking up heavy armour from somewhere else and the wizard can cast unlimited shield spells for an extra +5.

Warlocks will have worse AC, but will be getting 25 temporary hp whenever they kill anything and have other defenses - casters tend not to get tanky through the same hp/armour stacking method a martial does, but they tend to be just as hard if not harder to kill. Each caster has their own set of methods for staying alive, but martials universally have to rely on absorbing hits.

And 50 goblins spread out over such an area still favours casters far more - aside from just meteor swarming half of them to death instantly, a caster can just summon a bunch of minions, kill a bunch, reanimate them and use those corpses to kill more goblins. Or if they're a druid, use your infinite hp to chew through them or just go underground, hollow yourself out a nice chamber and sit there casting control weather and turn everything into an arctic blizzard. Or just use your caster tools to get everyone out of there, mind control their leader into ordering them to do things that end badly or flood the place.

MaxWilson

2014-11-18, 01:08 PM

The fighter's damage (at level 20? not the best arena to pick here, since that's when casters are best) will be 9 to 20, that sounds about right, but the evoker will be dealing 48 damage a round - not quite the fighter's average of 58, but not far off it and dealt at range rather than melee.

1.) How's the evoker getting 48 damage per round here? I see 27 via cantrips.
2.) Why would you assume that the fighter is in melee? Weapon range is one of the biggest strengths of fighters relative to casters. A fighter can do melee, but he's much better off with a longbow.

Eslin

2014-11-18, 01:12 PM

1.) How's the evoker getting 48 damage per round here? I see 27 via cantrips.
2.) Why would you assume that the fighter is in melee? Weapon range is one of the biggest strengths of fighters relative to casters. A fighter can do melee, but he's much better off with a longbow.

Spell sniper (wizard doesn't need much apart from con and int, feats to spare) gives fire bolt which I assume we're using a 240 yard range in addition to letting it ignore cover.
And 48 damage wise - 40 from overchanneling, 5 from int and 3 from their magic weapon. Admittedly 3's probably an underestimate considering a fighter's +3 weapon will be adding 12 damage over the course of the turn, but we don't know what magic boosting items will look like yet so I lowballed it.

Bellberith

2014-11-18, 01:15 PM

I don't know why people are giving it this much thought..... a fighter using a longbow can kill the druid regardless of form from 600ft away. And the bow doesn't even have to be magical. Lets assume that they see each other at the same time from any distance except 5ft. The fighter will likely win initiative if the druid is in any form because i don't see any with a 20dex and a fighter will always have alert with his many feats to decide on.

Standard longbow shot by a fighter with 20dex + sharpshooter feat + archery style = 1d8+15 damage and a +8 to attacks.

The fighter shoots 8 times and misses 20% of the time when the druid is in mammoth form like everyone is saying they would start the fight in or primarily fight in. But we have to remember the fighter has his superiority dice at d12s.

The fighter will use on average 1 - 2 superiority dice turning any misses that arent critical fails into hits. so the fighter misses 5% of the time. let's subtract 1 hit and 2 superiority dice to be generous. 7/8 hits.

for the damage, use any maneuver that adds damage dice and roll. (lets take average)

7d8 = 24.5
7*15 = 105
4d12 = 26

so 155.5 damage on average while being super generous.

The fighter will win vs the druid the majority of the time. and that is with a standard non-magical longbow + 8 arrows (7 hitting with a 5% miss chance)

even if the druid goes first it will still be a difficult fight for him, going up against the fighter's raw damage is difficult.

Eslin

2014-11-18, 01:17 PM

Bellberith

2014-11-18, 01:28 PM

So why doesn't the druid just go underground while approaching the fighter? And why would he try to engage in a direct damage contest, why not just summon, say, 16 pixies and have them polymorph the fighter into a penguin?

Because if you read the post you would see that i said the druid/fighter see each-other at the same time. roll initiative.

MaxWilson

2014-11-18, 01:33 PM

Eslin

2014-11-18, 01:33 PM

Because if you read the post you would see that i said the druid/fighter see each-other at the same time. roll initiative.

The druid's got a much better perception score, likely a better stealth score and would be a hawk kilometres in the sky. a fish in the river or an elemental below the earth. There's no way the fighter would realise there was a fight anywhere near the same time the druid did.

Bellberith

2014-11-18, 01:56 PM

The druid's got a much better perception score, likely a better stealth score and would be a hawk kilometres in the sky. a fish in the river or an elemental below the earth. There's no way the fighter would realise there was a fight anywhere near the same time the druid did.

Fighter can easily take observant as a feat and be proficient in perception........ why would a druid be a random fish in a river? and the elemental can't see through earth.

What about 1200 feet?

lemme edit that, 10-600ft. when was the last encounter you had that started more than 600ft away? that is quite the distance. 1200ft away is insane, unless you are a caster teleporting, it would take multiple rounds for the two parties to meet.

By the looks of it, this thread is prolonged by people throwing out random scenarios..... fact is on AVERAGE the fighter will win. now you can make any class beat any class if you want to warp and twist the scenario in ones favor. otherwise stick to the basics of what is LIKELY to happen.

MaxWilson

2014-11-18, 02:32 PM

lemme edit that, 10-600ft. when was the last encounter you had that started more than 600ft away? that is quite the distance. 1200ft away is insane, unless you are a caster teleporting, it would take multiple rounds for the two parties to meet.

Last time... hmmm, in the game, that would be two sessions ago. Spotted some hobgoblins fleeing from a cave, a half mile or so away. Had several rounds to prepare before anyone was in range to do anything. Later on that same session, spotted some flying riders. Again, it was a minute or so before they came into range. (The DM was altering several rules in the name of a good story--in particular, the Perytons were going about 8x faster than the MM stats--but for our purposes it doesn't matter.)

In real life, the last time I had an encounter at a range greater than six hundred feet is probably when I recognized someone from across the parking lot and waved hello. If you don't see people before they get within six hundred feet, either you are indoors or there is something wrong with your vision. Were you intending for the druid vs. fighter cage match to take place indoors?

Z3ro

2014-11-18, 02:37 PM

In real life, the last time I had an encounter at a range greater than six hundred feet is probably when I recognized someone from across the parking lot and waved hello. If you don't see people before they get within six hundred feet, either you are indoors or there is something wrong with your vision. Were you intending for the druid vs. fighter cage match to take place indoors?

Just to be clear, six hundred feet is two football fields. That's a big parking lot; I know if I'm sitting in one endzone, I can't clearly make out people in the other, and you're talking double that distance.

Ashrym

2014-11-18, 02:42 PM

Thereby sending it straight from way too good to absolutely useless. What fun. That's what annoys me most about this - A), the spell implies in two seperate places that the effects take place immediately and B) if you rule that they don't, the spell is useless.

Seriously, a 5th level spell slot that takes at a minimum 3 rounds to go into effect against a single target that you have to get into melee range for? Anything worth using it on is insanely unlikely to fail 3 constitution saves and in any case the fight will be won or lost by that point. Argh. And the only alternative to that is an instant incapacitation spell that can't be saved against, which is way too powerful.

Back on topic, does anyone want to take a crack at the druid vs fighter scenario? I've introduced 5 ways I think a druid could close to risklessly kill a fighter, would they work?

The sentinel feat reduces movement to zero on opportunity attacks and I don't see anything preventing that from being effective on flyby attack tactics.

All fighters still have the option to stay behind or under cover, step out, make attacks, and then move back to the cover because of 5e's move rules. They can all use ranged attacks regardless of ability scores or acquire a flying mount given time and focus on it; obviously not a given but worth mentioning.

I disagree on champions being useless. Deliberate bonus damage (like battlemaster) is better than random bonus damage (from improved crit) but remarkable athelete is okay and survivor is a strong ability.

A druid damaging a fighter who is also recovering hp and deliberately trying to control the environment will struggle in damaging the fighter due to weaker damage options in the first place.

I don't think the fighter will be able to overcome the hit points from unlimited wildshape on a druid through sheer damage, tbh. That much wildshape is a lot of hit points and it would take a lot of luck, particularly with a strong spell like foresight in the mix. Eldritch knight has some spells available that might be more effective but unlimited wildshape into high hp forms really is a lot for any class to overcome.

MaxWilson

2014-11-18, 03:01 PM

Just to be clear, six hundred feet is two football fields. That's a big parking lot; I know if I'm sitting in one endzone, I can't clearly make out people in the other, and you're talking double that distance.

[shrug] It's a pretty big parking lot, but not the biggest I've seen (edit: I checked on Google maps, and it is only 550 feet across). You may not be able to "clearly" make out people, but you can make them out. Perhaps you're underestimating your visual system. I have 20/800 vision, and I can recognize people without my glasses at 20 feet, so normal people should be able to recognize people at 800 feet. It's not done by distinct visual cues, more of a gestalt thing--and yet it is doable. Soldiers in Afghanistan conduct half of their firefights at ranges between 300 and 500 yards, so double what we're talking about here.

20/20 vision normally resolves detail 1/16 of an inch across at 20 feet, so it will resolve detail 30 * 1/16 = 1.87 inches across at 600 feet. If there were a big "E" on your shirt ten inches high, a normal person could still read it at 600 feet. City blocks in Seattle are 400 feet (according to my GPS), and frequently I'm looking one or two lights ahead. 200 yards is not that far for visual range.

Galen

2014-11-18, 03:07 PM

and frequently I'm looking one or two lights ahead.
Except that traffic lights were specifically engineered to be well-seen. At some point, there was a group of experts sitting together and discussing, "how can we make this better visible". I doubt the fighter or druid were getting such help.

200 yards is not that far for visual range.It is very far, in most natural surroundings.

MaxWilson

2014-11-18, 03:15 PM

Except that traffic lights were specifically engineered to be well-seen. At some point, there was a group of experts sitting together and discussing, "how can we make this better visible". I doubt the fighter or druid were getting such help.

And human eyes were specifically designed to see other humans. Especially when they are moving. Note that I'm not just talking about seeing traffic lights at that distance: you can see cars, pedestrians, etc.

It is very far, in most natural surroundings.

Only if there is occlusion of vision. In dense forest, yes, you probably aren't going to see 50 yards out, much less 200. But if I google for natural terrain, I come up with stuff like this: http://overnature.com/photo/46-wallpaper-with-a-greeter-to-relax-and-distract-the-natural-terrain.html Could you see a person 600 feet away in that terrain? Yes, absolutely, especially if they were moving. (You can also see some thicker forest on the middle-left with much more impaired visibility. Natural terrain isn't going to be uniform--but moving humans are usually moving through clear terrain, not dense underbrush.)

Guys, just go outside and measure 600 feet. Or if you don't want to do that, look at the middle line on an eye chart, halfway between the huge "E" and the tiny "D E F P T C" etc. That's how big a human is at 600 feet. It's not that tiny.

Seeing someone at 1 kilometer is another matter entirely. That's like seeing them when they are as small as the tiny letters on the eye chart. You could still do it, in daylight, if the visual contrast was good (black on white), but it's much harder. Edit: nope, sorry, at 1 km they are half as big as the tiny letters on the eye chart.

Ashrym

2014-11-18, 03:28 PM

Again, non-casters can do damage and soak damage... No one is debating that.

But outside of that... They ain't got nothing that a caster can't replicate or do waaaay better.

Goblins attacking in one or two per group can be wiped out with cantrips or a crossbow just fine.

Also you are forgetting that cantrips level up, Firebolt for example goes from 1d10 all the way to 4d10 fire damage. Fire resistance? Feat for that!

Cantrip damage sucks compared to multiple attacks with the exception of warlocks using agonizing blast plus hex. A single attack of 4d10 or 4d10+5 is 22 or 27 damage before accuracy. Feats, fighting styles, and class damage bonuses are multiplied through those multiple attacks.

At 5th level, 2 attacks doing 2d6+4 is already doing 22 damage on average before fighting styles, feats, or other bonuses to compare with 17th level cantrip damage base.

Apply that to the thread title and let me know if another caster can overcome moon druid wildshape hit points when even the highest damage spell available, meteor swarm, will do less damage than an action surging fighter to that druid. ;-)

Regulas

2014-11-18, 04:03 PM

Bellberith

2014-11-18, 04:14 PM

It's fairly obvious that the winner is entirely based on the level of knowledge and preparation either has beforehand.

If the Fighter is capable of dealing damage to the druid then he can probably kill him in one round, in contrast if the druid knows what he's up against he can prepare his form and spells ahead of time in such a way that the fighter won't be able to damage him.

that is exactly the point, that is why to keep the scenario as unbiased as possible you set it up like a sudden encounter. 2 people see eachother at the same time from a reasonable distance.... within 2 football fields is more than reasonable. considering that it is very difficult to not only see that far away properly, but most terrain wont be flat or featureless from that distance either.

so as stated before, the fighter wins in a sudden encounter. given prep time? obviously a full caster will take the cake nearly 100% of the time.

MaxWilson

2014-11-18, 04:20 PM

that is exactly the point, that is why to keep the scenario as unbiased as possible you set it up like a sudden encounter. 2 people see eachother at the same time from a reasonable distance.... within 2 football fields is more than reasonable. considering that it is very difficult to not only see that far away properly, but most terrain wont be flat or featureless from that distance either.

so as stated before, the fighter wins in a sudden encounter. given prep time? obviously a full caster will take the cake nearly 100% of the time.

Two issues: if terrain is so difficult that you can't see until you get close, there is likely to be enough occlusion to grant partial cover, decreasing the fighter's nova damage. Additionally, the nova damage isn't enough to kill the druid anyway. He's got 200 HP and you're only doing 150ish in your calculations above.

Sartharina

2014-11-18, 04:21 PM

Most likely situation that I can imagine going on here:
The Fighter and Druid are in the same party, and an argument gets heated before going violent. There's a 50/50 chance of either being the one to initiate the confrontation, but both realize that things are gonna go downhill fast. Druid starts wildshaped, but initiative determines who goes first, and they're in close range.

Bellberith

2014-11-18, 04:46 PM

Two issues: if terrain is so difficult that you can't see until you get close, there is likely to be enough occlusion to grant partial cover, decreasing the fighter's nova damage. Additionally, the nova damage isn't enough to kill the druid anyway. He's got 200 HP and you're only doing 150ish in your calculations above.

thats 155.5 while missing 1 attack on a 5% misschance in 8 attacks (so being generous for the druid) and without any sort of magic on the bow by level 20.

the fighter can easily go beyond 200 damage with the 8th attack and a little magic on the bow.

also, have you read the sharpshooter feat? ignores up to 3/4th cover.

and normally a druid wouldn't have that much hp if he is relying on wildshape like everyone has been saying this whole time.

MaxWilson

2014-11-18, 05:17 PM

thats 155.5 while missing 1 attack on a 5% misschance in 8 attacks (so being generous for the druid) and without any sort of magic on the bow by level 20.

the fighter can easily go beyond 200 damage with the 8th attack and a little magic on the bow.

also, have you read the sharpshooter feat? ignores up to 3/4th cover.

and normally a druid wouldn't have that much hp if he is relying on wildshape like everyone has been saying this whole time.

Point taken on sharpshooter, I forgot you included that. Sharpshooter is pure awesome.

The druid does have that many HP according to the OP. 20 Con and 20 levels of druid = 203 HP. Edit: whoops, that's the druid in the other druid vs. fighter thread. This OP doesn't specify stats.

Vogonjeltz

2014-11-18, 05:28 PM

casting regeneration and heal would be a much better use of some of your spell slots. Also foresight gives the fighter disadvantage.

Regeneration's casting time makes it prohibitive to cast mid-combat (although it would be a more efficient use of its spell slot if the fight lasted more than 32 rounds. So...not a good use of the spell slot in this scenario at all); True, foresight would require the Fighter to find a way to have advantage, in order to even out...of course this also requires the foresight to use foresight sometime within the 8 hour window prior to the fight (it also has a combat prohibitive cast time). Were we not assuming no special preparation by either side? (i.e. a standard no warning encounter)

Because of the 4 elementals that the Druid can Wild Shape into, only the Earth Elemental is susceptible to the Prone or Grappled condition.

Ah good point (chagrin). I suppose it would just be a question of seeing how high up the elemental goes, and determining when the Fighter should pop its bubble for falling damage. Can't shift out and back in (for more bonus hit points) in one round so taking to the air can't last for more than 2 rounds (average damage over 2 rounds being 14 higher than hp max of the elemental)

Thereby sending it straight from way too good to absolutely useless. What fun. That's what annoys me most about this - A), the spell implies in two seperate places that the effects take place immediately and B) if you rule that they don't, the spell is useless.

Seriously, a 5th level spell slot that takes at a minimum 3 rounds to go into effect against a single target that you have to get into melee range for? Anything worth using it on is insanely unlikely to fail 3 constitution saves and in any case the fight will be won or lost by that point. Argh. And the only alternative to that is an instant incapacitation spell that can't be saved against, which is way too powerful.

Back on topic, does anyone want to take a crack at the druid vs fighter scenario? I've introduced 5 ways I think a druid could close to risklessly kill a fighter, would they work?

See, I read it as functioning like the death saving throw. You undergo the save chain and it doesn't take effect (or actually go away) until one of the two conditions comes to pass (i.e. best of 5 coin toss). Yeah, that means it takes 3 rounds...but it also is an effect that persists 7 days (ring flashbacks, eep!). If we read it as taking effect immediately, that would mean without the target even getting a saving throw (although, it takes a touch attack, but still).

posited scenarios reposted:

I posit these scenarios, all achievable on the same day by a druid. How would you deal with any of these 5 things as a fighter? How would you deal with all 5? Keep in mind with plane shift and infinite wild shaping, the druid gets to pick the fight and choose a different tactic if the previous one did not succeed.

Keep in mind Plane Shift requires an attuned fork, and we don't even know how to acquire one of those yet, so neither does our hypothetical Druid. Sure, it might be easy, or it might be nigh impossible (as was the case according to the 3.5 rules that nobody ever followed). We're positing a level 20 fight, so if we assume the Druid has somehow (since, again, we don't know how) managed to acquire this magic related item, it would be reasonable for the Fighter to have also acquired a means of pursuit.

The druid, who has no reason not to spend his day wild shaped, is now floating say 80 feet in the air. He uses his action to cast moonbeam using let's say a sixth level spell slot, and uses his actions to move it in future, using his bonus actions to refresh wild shape and his pool of 90 ablative hit points.

We didn't set any parameters yet, beyond your contention the Druid is always wildshaped into something that flies (Air Elemental?), and the apparent assumption that he gets to go first (seems unlikely, but let's go with it). The Fighter goes under cover of...anything. It's light, it's blocked by trees/leaves/ledges/ceilings etc... This also negates the supposed flight advantage of the Druid and all it takes is movement. Second, moonbeam requires concentration. 4 attacks are likely to force up to 4 concentration checks, the Druid doesn't have that save, nor does the air elemental, and it's con bonus is +2, so there's a 40% chance of failure for each one. The spell is almost certain to be disrupted by a simple volley of arrows. I don't consider this strategy particularly useful, the average damage of the failed moonbeam is only 33, and that's before the saving throw that Fighters are proficient in (and could do-over if they really wanted to).

If this strategy proves ineffective, he turns into an earth elemental and drops below the surface of the earth. He uses tremorsense to make sure he won't come out near you, and every turn he pops out of the ground, throws cantrips at you, and returns below ground until it's his turn again.

He can't wildshape from a wildshape, he can only extend the current one. Dropping the wildshape is his bonus action, taking a new wildshape is a bonus action. So he'd have to wait for the form to get whittled down, or drop it on his own turn (being careful to land first, otherwise falling damage happens).

Trickier. Withdraw to worked earth/stone (or non-earth/stone terrain) that the Druid can't glide through, like a city, town, ruin, swamp, etc. Leaving the ground, say, by climbing up a tree. Would prevent tremorsense from functioning, also allows the Fighter to hide.

If this proves ineffective, he casts conjure woodland beings and has the pixies he summoned polymorph you into a penguin, and holds you still. The pixies who didn't polymorph you cast it on themselves turn into burrowing creatures (say, giant badgers and he turns himself into an earth elemental, and for the next 55 minutes digs a giant pit, puts you in a bag at the bottom of it and fills it back in again. He then dismisses the conjuration spell, casts move earth instead, and stacks a huge amount more on top of you, then turns into an earth elemental and attacks you while you're choking to death. Resisting the polymorph spells is a wisdom save by the way, and he has up to 8 available per 4th level spell slot.

Interesting idea, still it's only a DC 12 threat from the spells, the pixies have to roll initiative (so their turn order is unpredictable), and it's another concentration spell that it likely to be disrupted as soon as your turn ends; and the pixies stats are such that if you don't summon more than 4 the Fighter can instagib them in 1 round.

If that somehow doesn't work, he relies on foresight giving him advantage on attack rolls and you disadvantage, turns into a mammoth and relies on the ability to constantly wild shape to restore hp in order to beat you in a straight fight. Keep in mind that you're getting to this point because due to his massive amount of options and ablative hp, if he screws up the above 3 steps he just needs to try something else, if you screw them up you're dead.

Interesting side affect, there's no reason not to pile on beneficial things that also provide disadvantage on attacks, because it can't get worse (In the hypothetical scenario in which Foresight is somehow up owing to apriori knowledge or blind luck). We already know the mammoth route is dicey for the Druid at best. I'd advise attack improvisation, throwing dust/dirt/sand/grit into the Mammoth's eyes, blinding it and negating Foresight entirely.

If you're somehow not dead he casts contagion, targeting your constitution, and proceeds to beat you to death now that you're permanently stunned.

Constitution being a proficient save the Fighter easily makes all three saves and the disease never takes hold. You'd be better off targeting Int/Wis/Cha; assuming the Fighter didn't pick up resilience, of course there's no way to know if they did or didn't.

So no, I don't particularly think any of those plans of attack will be successful against a thinking opponent with decision making capabilities.

Again, non-casters can do damage and soak damage... No one is debating that.

But outside of that... They ain't got nothing that a caster can't replicate or do waaaay better.

Goblins attacking in one or two per group can be wiped out with cantrips or a crossbow just fine.

Also you are forgetting that cantrips level up, Firebolt for example goes from 1d10 all the way to 4d10 fire damage. Fire resistance? Feat for that!

Nobody is forgetting cantrips. Those are a sop to make casters not completely useless once their spells are gone. (And given the limited spell slots, that is going to happen.)

Spell sniper (wizard doesn't need much apart from con and int, feats to spare) gives fire bolt which I assume we're using a 240 yard range in addition to letting it ignore cover.
And 48 damage wise - 40 from overchanneling, 5 from int and 3 from their magic weapon. Admittedly 3's probably an underestimate considering a fighter's +3 weapon will be adding 12 damage over the course of the turn, but we don't know what magic boosting items will look like yet so I lowballed it.

Wizards only get 5 ability score increases. If they burn one on the feat, that's 4, so +8 total. That won't cover even two scores to 20, let alone the 3 they need/want (Casting + Con + Dex).

I think we can summarize the division in positions on outcomes thus far in two ways:
1) Wildshape says you can transform into a Beast, from which point you can: Remain as such for X hours, Revert to Human, Expend Wild Shape use to extend duration.

or

2) Wildshape doesn't say it's impossible to transform into Wild Shape from Wild Shape, so it must be possible.

Is there more nuance than the denialism standard being put forth?

Shining Wrath

2014-11-18, 05:53 PM

Foresight literally prevents surprise, meaning you can't ambush one regardless. You could win initiative, but you can't surprise one.

You can only have Foresight up 8 hours a day, though, so the Fighter has 2 chances out of 3 of catching the Druid without it.

MaxWilson

2014-11-18, 05:59 PM

You can only have Foresight up 8 hours a day, though, so the Fighter has 2 chances out of 3 of catching the Druid without it.

Well, maybe. Unless the druid sleeps in Stone Shape or puts up a Leomund's Tiny Hut (via Ritual Caster), that would make it 50/50.

Bellberith

2014-11-18, 06:04 PM

You can only have Foresight up 8 hours a day, though, so the Fighter has 2 chances out of 3 of catching the Druid without it.

Well, when the fighter can only miss on a 1 (assuming the druid relies on wildshapes...) disadvantage on attacks doesnt affect anything. statistically the fighter will still hit all 8 shots (8 shots at disadvantage is 16 rolls. and 5% is 1 in 20.) but going with the previous math he only needs to land 6 to take out the druids highest hp form (mammoth).

the funny thing is this is again, without any magic, and also it isnt even the highest damage fighter build around. just the most likely one to be able to attack with all 8 attacks on the first round because of the 600ft range.

MaxWilson

2014-11-18, 06:06 PM

I think we can summarize the division in positions on outcomes thus far in two ways:
1) Wildshape says you can transform into a Beast, from which point you can: Remain as such for X hours, Revert to Human, Expend Wild Shape use to extend duration.

or

2) Wildshape doesn't say it's impossible to transform into Wild Shape from Wild Shape, so it must be possible.

Is there more nuance than the denialism standard being put forth?

Here's a better paraphrase of position #2.

2.) Wildshape specifically says you retain class features except for those which are physically impossible, and doesn't single out Wildshape as something which isn't retained while in Wildshape. An Archdruid can cast spells while in wildshape, ignoring verbal, somatic, and some material components, and those are always more restrictive than wildshape. There is no verbiage even hinting at the possibility that you might lose Wild Shape ability while in Wildshape, so you retain the ability.

Bellberith

2014-11-18, 06:16 PM

Here's a better paraphrase of position #2.

2.) Wildshape specifically says you retain class features except for those which are physically impossible, and doesn't single out Wildshape as something which isn't retained while in Wildshape. An Archdruid can cast spells while in wildshape, ignoring verbal, somatic, and some material components, and those are always more restrictive than wildshape. There is no verbiage even hinting at the possibility that you might lose Wild Shape ability while in Wildshape, so you retain the ability.

i don't know why people insist on trying to twist the wording of some abilities in their favor......

a druid is clearly able to wildshape anytime they wish into whatever form they wish from any form they wish. (obviously within the limits of the ability)

think of it as shapechange the 9th level spell, but restricted to CR 6 creatures.

The ability simply says you can transform, not once does it say anywhere what form you have to be in to transform.

and to be completely honest, if a druid wants to transform into a mammoth with 126 hp, then let them..... it can get 1 round killed by nearly any other class.

Vogonjeltz

2014-11-18, 06:27 PM

MaxWilson

2014-11-18, 06:36 PM

Actually the wording that in wildshape you can extend by using wildshape is not merely a hint, it is quite explicit, that is what happens if you use wildshape while in wildshape.

No, that is what it costs to retain your shape longer than the specified duration. We've already been over this. I would write that rule exactly the same way: "after level/2 hours, you revert to your natural form unless you expend another use of wildshape." That doesn't mean I think you can't use Wildshape for other things. A bear can turn into a fish, as long as he is really a druid.

This is really straightforward and obvious by RAW. You retain class features, including Wildshape, unless your new form cannot accomodate the physical actions necessary to perform them. Do you really expect them to include a redundant line that says, "You retain all class abilities, including Wildshape"? No. You can wildshape when wildshaped, just like you can when in your own shape, as long as you have sufficient uses of Wildshape remaining.

Edit: I wonder, is this more obvious to me because I come from 2nd edition in which druid shapeshifting worked exactly this way? (It's even spelled out in the example, a wren turning into a black bear.) My total exposure to 3rd edition is restricted to the video games Temple of Elemental Evil and Icewind Dale II, but in both games, druid shapeshifting is a toggle. I figured that was due to game engine/software limitations but if the 3rd edition ruleset actually restricts shapeshifting to only human form, that might explain the source of the cognitive bias (for 3rd edition players). It wouldn't change the actual 5th edition rules of course.

Giant2005

2014-11-18, 06:47 PM

If the Druid can be defeated by anyone with the +3 Flaming Sword of Oozkaqual, then it doesn't really count for the fighter, does it?

The Fighter's greatest advantage is that he can use the +3 Flaming Sword of Oozkaqual twice as effectively as other martials or 4x as effectively as a non-martial. Taking the Fighter's greatest strength out of the fight askews the odds no less significantly than pairing up a Fighter against a Druid that has already expended all of his spell slots.

Vogonjeltz

2014-11-18, 07:11 PM

No, that is what it costs to retain your shape longer than the specified duration. We've already been over this. I would write that rule exactly the same way: "after level/2 hours, you revert to your natural form unless you expend another use of wildshape." That doesn't mean I think you can't use Wildshape for other things. A bear can turn into a fish, as long as he is really a druid.

This is really straightforward and obvious by RAW. You retain class features, including Wildshape, unless your new form cannot accomodate the physical actions necessary to perform them. Do you really expect them to include a redundant line that says, "You retain all class abilities, including Wildshape"? No. You can wildshape when wildshaped, just like you can when in your own shape, as long as you have sufficient uses of Wildshape remaining.

Edit: I wonder, is this more obvious to me because I come from 2nd edition in which druid shapeshifting worked exactly this way? (It's even spelled out in the example, a wren turning into a black bear.) My total exposure to 3rd edition is restricted to the video games Temple of Elemental Evil and Icewind Dale II, but in both games, druid shapeshifting is a toggle. I figured that was due to game engine limitations but if the 3rd edition ruleset actually restricts shapeshifting to only human form, that might explain the source of the cognitive bias (for 3rd edition players).

No, the wildshape feature replaced your normal form with that of a beast shape, this is all in the first two paragraphs of the ability. If you aren't in your normal form it can't very well do that.

Second, the mistake you've made is that this isn't 2nd edition. This also isn't 3rd or 3.5. This is 5th, the rules are different. Now Druids have to revert first to change to a new form.

MaxWilson

2014-11-18, 07:28 PM

Second, the mistake you've made is that this isn't 2nd edition. This also isn't 3rd or 3.5. This is 5th, the rules are different. Now Druids have to revert first to change to a new form.

Nice strawman. You must be getting desperate.

5th edition rules are quite clear. Addressed multiple times in this thread (#147, #150). You keep trying to find evidence for an alternate theory but it just isn't there.

No, the wildshape feature replaced your normal form with that of a beast shape, this is all in the first two paragraphs of the ability. If you aren't in your normal form it can't very well do that.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

Ghost Nappa

2014-11-18, 07:31 PM

The Fighter's greatest advantage is that he can use the +3 Flaming Sword of Oozkaqual twice as effectively as other martials or 4x as effectively as a non-martial. Taking the Fighter's greatest strength out of the fight askews the odds no less significantly than pairing up a Fighter against a Druid that has already expended all of his spell slots.

That line was made more with the implication that the undefined properties of a magic weapon shouldn't be the defining aspect of the strategy that the Fighter is using to defeat the Druid. Hence "Oozkaqual," a string of characters I made by literally pushing random buttons.

To my surprise, it's pronounceable.

Bellberith

2014-11-18, 09:35 PM

No, the wildshape feature replaced your normal form with that of a beast shape, this is all in the first two paragraphs of the ability. If you aren't in your normal form it can't very well do that.

Second, the mistake you've made is that this isn't 2nd edition. This also isn't 3rd or 3.5. This is 5th, the rules are different. Now Druids have to revert first to change to a new form.

how about this, you quote the ability and BOLD the text that you want us to read that makes us think what you are saying is true. because i read the ability multiple times and not once have i seen that wording.

Vogonjeltz

2014-11-18, 10:00 PM

how about this, you quote the ability and BOLD the text that you want us to read that makes us think what you are saying is true. because i read the ability multiple times and not once have i seen that wording.

Question remains as to what can be said, so I'll paraphrase with the standard use of ellipses to denote skipped text.

You can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before.
...
You can stay in a beast shape for a number of hours equal to.... You then revert to your normal form unless you expend another use of this feature. You can revert to your normal form earlier.... You automatically revert if you....
When you transform you assume the beast's...
When you revert to your normal form, you return to...before you transformed.

Do you really not see the use of language there? This is speaking of exactly two states of being, and no more. Normal form and transformed shape. Every part of changing references those two states.

All the rules use this formulation:
Normal transforms->Beast shape
Shape reverts->Normal form

Never once is this used:
shape->shape.

Lacking even a single example that fits the last pattern, there is no reason within the PHB to believe a Druid can transform from anything but their normal form.

Bellberith

2014-11-18, 10:11 PM

Question remains as to what can be said, so I'll paraphrase with the standard use of ellipses to denote skipped text.

Do you really not see the use of language there? This is speaking of exactly two states of being, and no more. Normal form and transformed shape. Every part of changing references those two states.

All the rules use this formulation:
Normal transforms->Beast shape
Shape reverts->Normal form

Never once is this used:
shape->shape.

Lacking even a single example that fits the last pattern, there is no reason within the PHB to believe a Druid can transform from anything but their normal form.

You then revert to your normal form unless you expend another use of this feature.

that line alone tells us you can still use the ability and nothing prevents you from using it to transform into another creature. based upon this line here as per when you use the ability

You can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before.

what you have posted only proves the point you were trying to refute.

MaxWilson

2014-11-18, 10:23 PM

Do you really not see the use of language there? This is speaking of exactly two states of being, and no more. Normal form and transformed shape. Every part of changing references those two states.

All the rules use this formulation:
Normal transforms->Beast shape
Shape reverts->Normal form

Never once is this used:
shape->shape.

Lacking even a single example that fits the last pattern, there is no reason within the PHB to believe a Druid can transform from anything but their normal form.

This is false. The only transition example which is given in the rules at all is "beast form (reverts to) normal shape." There are no examples given of "Normal (transforms into) beast shape," only of "(something) (transforms into) beast shape." It's fortunate that they didn't give such examples or you would seize the opportunity to argue that humanoid shape is the only one in which you can transform at all. In any case, they don't exist.

You can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before.
...
You can stay in a beast shape for a number of hours equal to.... You then revert to your normal form unless you expend another use of this feature. You can revert to your normal form earlier.... You automatically revert if you....
When you transform you assume the beast's...
When you revert to your normal form, you return to...before you transformed.

Wild shape has explicit language barring you from spellcasting in wild shape (until you reach 18th level). If wild shape were intended to be similarly restricted, it would have been simple to write the rules that way. "While in normal form, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast." No such language exists.

Enough beating of this dead horse. Go ahead and have the last word, I'm done here.

Demonicattorney

2014-11-18, 10:57 PM

Bellberith

2014-11-18, 11:11 PM

Eslin

2014-11-18, 11:29 PM

Its funny how no one is comparing a level 19 Druid vs a level 19 fighter, or you know a non-moon Druid. It is pretty clear that Moon Druids were not supposed to have unlimited healing. . . seems like people are arguing about a bug.

Its also a little weird comparing classes at this level without magic weapons or armor, since Fighters benefit disproportionately from them. Even without a specific magic weapon (like a sword against lycanthropy or shapeshifters, a +2d6 or +3d6 damage weapon (which were in the playtest), changes things significantly. Fighters can also choose to engage with a long-bow at a range that Druids cannot match, they can use terrain (being medium and not gargantuan), and can make use of concentration spells from magic items (like a ring of spell storing holding haste or fly) etc.

We're discounting magic items because we don't know that fighters will benefit disproportionately from them, and have fairly good evidence they won't. All classes should benefit equally from magic items as a whole, if they don't you end up with one of two situations: Class A benefits more from magical items than class B, and with magical items they're equally powerful. That means that without magical items class A is weaker than class B, which is bad game balance. Class A benefits more from magical items than class B, and without magical items they're equally powerful. That means that with magic items, class A becomes stronger than class B, which is bad game balance.

The only solution is obvious - all classes should be around equal in usefulness without magic items (obviously they are useful in different ways, a bard and barbarian have different strengths, but they should be about as useful as each other), and they should all gain the same level of use from magic items.

If you read one of my posts on page 5 of the thread (i think) i already explained this to people. a fighter with a standard mundane longbow can 1 round a druid with a near 95% certainty. a magic longbow? the damage just skyrockets and the druid doesn't stand a chance as long as the fighter gets his round in. (again, that was discounting prep-time and starting the fight within 2 football fields... aka 600ft)
A druid in air elemental form has 90hp and 15 AC, and once you've gotten through that in humanoid form has 203HP and 17-19 AC depending on dexterity, let's call it 18.
The fighter's doing 1d8+15(19.5) damage with a longbow at +8 to hit, and for generosity's sake let's say the druid hasn't foresighted himself (though he would have). You'll need to hit 15.5 times to do that amount of damage in one round (293 total, 15 hits would do an an average of 292.5, so on average you'll need fifteen and a half hits). How on earth are you doing that in one round?

And as a side note, how are you getting into longbow range? Why wouldn't the druid be several kilometres up in the air as an eagle or air elemental, spot you, get out of your range, go underground and then pop out and summon 24 pixies to polymorph you into a dodo? Seriously, druid has a huge advantage in terms of fight starting here. The druid can wildshape an infinite number of times, he's not gonna be just walking around - he's going to be a fish in the river or a bird in the sky.

Do you really not see the use of language there? This is speaking of exactly two states of being, and no more. Normal form and transformed shape. Every part of changing references those two states.

All the rules use this formulation:
Normal transforms->Beast shape
Shape reverts->Normal form

Never once is this used:
shape->shape.

Lacking even a single example that fits the last pattern, there is no reason within the PHB to believe a Druid can transform from anything but their normal form.
Remember the whole thing of inventing evidence to fit a theory from the other thread? This is that again in a nutshell.

The rules never use that formulation - Normal transforms->Beast shape is NOT what the rules say, the rules say use wild shape->beast shape. They never mention a single thing about requiring you to be in your humanoid form first.

Bellberith

2014-11-18, 11:47 PM

A druid in air elemental form has 90hp and 15 AC, and once you've gotten through that in humanoid form has 203HP and 17-19 AC depending on dexterity, let's call it 18.
The fighter's doing 1d8+15(19.5) damage with a longbow at +8 to hit, and for generosity's sake let's say the druid hasn't foresighted himself (though he would have). You'll need to hit 15.5 times to do that amount of damage in one round (293 total, 15 hits would do an an average of 292.5, so on average you'll need fifteen and a half hits). How on earth are you doing that in one round?

And as a side note, how are you getting into longbow range? Why wouldn't the druid be several kilometres up in the air as an eagle or air elemental, spot you, get out of your range, go underground and then pop out and summon 24 pixies to polymorph you into a dodo? Seriously, druid has a huge advantage in terms of fight starting here. The druid can wildshape an infinite number of times, he's not gonna be just walking around - he's going to be a fish in the river or a bird in the sky.

ah, to be honest i did forget that they revert to their normal form and then start taking damage to their actual hp.

regardless if you add magic onto that bow fitting for a level 20, then i think you will find it becomes more than enough to hit and kill the druid no matter the form.

also you have used those same example a few times and like i said before, there are a few problems.

1. how is the druid seeing a normal guy from thousands of meters away and distinguishing him as an enemy?
2. how is the druid seeing from underground?
3. why is he a fish when he can fly?
4. you are imputing obscure scenarios to try and give advantage to the druid that shouldn't be there for testing purposes. when testing you make the fight fair, within a reasonable distance, and both parties notice each other at the same time then roll initiative. once you determine who wins from there you can branch off into different scenarios from the typical fight and try to find out what it takes for each side to win reliably.

Druids are not as immortal as some people seem to think, a warlock17/fighter3 can easily 1 round a druid no matter what form he is in also with a 300dmg+ nova. although that is given a couple magical items as fit for a level 20.

Eslin

2014-11-19, 12:17 AM

ah, to be honest i did forget that they revert to their normal form and then start taking damage to their actual hp.

regardless if you add magic onto that bow fitting for a level 20, then i think you will find it becomes more than enough to hit and kill the druid no matter the form.

also you have used those same example a few times and like i said before, there are a few problems.

1. how is the druid seeing a normal guy from thousands of meters away and distinguishing him as an enemy?
2. how is the druid seeing from underground?
3. why is he a fish when he can fly?
4. you are imputing obscure scenarios to try and give advantage to the druid that shouldn't be there for testing purposes. when testing you make the fight fair, within a reasonable distance, and both parties notice each other at the same time then roll initiative. once you determine who wins from there you can branch off into different scenarios from the typical fight and try to find out what it takes for each side to win reliably.

Druids are not as immortal as some people seem to think, a warlock17/fighter3 can easily 1 round a druid no matter what form he is in also with a 300dmg+ nova. although that is given a couple magical items as fit for a level 20.
If you add magic to the bow it's still not enough, and if the fighter's got a magic weapon then the druid would have magic armour to cancel it out - this is why we aren't using magic items, we don't know what form they'll take.

Druids use tremorsense underground. And regarding the meeting scenarios, the least likely scenario is 'they appear 100 feet from each other and notice each other at the same time'. The druid has better perception, likely better stealth and many ways to see and remain unseen, I can't think of any scenario in which the fighter would be able likely to get the drop on him.

JoeJ

2014-11-19, 12:23 AM

The druid has better perception, likely better stealth and many ways to see and remain unseen, I can't think of any scenario in which the fighter would be able likely to get the drop on him.

What about if the battle takes place inside the fighter's castle? Or an arena specially built for gladiatorial combat? Or if they meet in the streets of the city? Or inside an underground labyrinth? There are a lot of possible scenarios that don't give the druid the advantage of favorable terrain that you're assuming.

Bellberith

2014-11-19, 12:28 AM

If you add magic to the bow it's still not enough, and if the fighter's got a magic weapon then the druid would have magic armour to cancel it out - this is why we aren't using magic items, we don't know what form they'll take.

Druids use tremorsense underground. And regarding the meeting scenarios, the least likely scenario is 'they appear 100 feet from each other and notice each other at the same time'. The druid has better perception, likely better stealth and many ways to see and remain unseen, I can't think of any scenario in which the fighter would be able likely to get the drop on him.

I never said the fighter got the drop on him, but at the same time you have to be one paranoid git to just constantly sneak wherever you go. Especially as a level 20, you would think he is confident enough to not scurry about everywhere.

And the most likely scenario is 2 party members getting into a fight. Which would normally happen within 600ft......

As for magic items, we have seem alot of them already, including a particular weapon from hoard of the dragon queen. If you take that weapon and strip it of all bonus effects, we see a similar weapon to that of a githyanki where it gains 1d6 bonus damage of a type per +1 bonus. now that is a standard based on what has been released and is in no way final, but we do have an IDEA on what to expect.

Eslin

2014-11-19, 12:36 AM

What about if the battle takes place inside the fighter's castle? Or an arena specially built for gladiatorial combat? Or if they meet in the streets of the city? Or inside an underground labyrinth? There are a lot of possible scenarios that don't give the druid the advantage of favorable terrain that you're assuming.

Which is the problem with this - context is everything. Who is hunting who, why are they fighting, why is all this taking place, where is all this taking place?

I never said the fighter got the drop on him, but at the same time you have to be one paranoid git to just constantly sneak wherever you go. Especially as a level 20, you would think he is confident enough to not scurry about everywhere.

And the most likely scenario is 2 party members getting into a fight. Which would normally happen within 600ft......

Which is true. But for the most part there's nothing a fighter can do to stop the druid just earth gliding to safety, and if the druid instead chooses to turn into something tough and rely on having advantage vs the fighter and the fighter having disadvantage plus endlessly refilling HP to just grind the fighter to death, he can - and there's nothing to stop him combining strategies by say summoning 24 pixies then turning into an earth elemental.

Bellberith

2014-11-19, 12:38 AM

Which is the problem with this - context is everything. Who is hunting who, why are they fighting, why is all this taking place, where is all this taking place?

Which is true. But for the most part there's nothing a fighter can do to stop the druid just earth gliding to safety, and if the druid instead chooses to turn into something tough and rely on having advantage vs the fighter and the fighter having disadvantage plus endlessly refilling HP to just grind the fighter to death, he can - and there's nothing to stop him combining strategies by say summoning 24 pixies then turning into an earth elemental.

That is assuming druid goes first and the fighter doesn't just nuke him down. Where the fighter will most likely have a higher initiative.

And honestly, you cant discount magic weapons because that will play a large roll. What people were saying is true, in comparison to other classes the fighter will benefit far more than everyone else with a stronger weapon. why? because he can attack 8 times with it.

Eslin

2014-11-19, 12:50 AM

That is assuming druid goes first and the fighter doesn't just nuke him down. Where the fighter will most likely have a higher initiative.

And honestly, you cant discount magic weapons because that will play a large roll. What people were saying is true, in comparison to other classes the fighter will benefit far more than everyone else with a stronger weapon. why? because he can attack 8 times with it.

Which isn't quite the case - a fighter gets twice as many attacks with a magic sword as a paladin, but since the paladin's attacks do more the extra accuracy benefits the paladin just as much. And I can and will discount magic items, since we have a vague idea of what the fighter can use and no idea at all for the druid.

And again, how would the fighter nuke him down? In almost no context will the fighter be in a position to do so, since with better perception and infinite shapeshifting the druid is unlikely to be attacked before he has a chance to realise what's going on and wind wall or just go underground.

Next question: An action surging fighter gets 8 attacks per round, and will usually need to burn through about 300hp at about 17 AC. How is a fighter going to do 300hp with 8 attacks at disadvantage (given its use, duration and lack of concentration, any 9th level character that engages in combat is almost guarantee to be foresighted)

Vogonjeltz

2014-11-19, 01:06 AM

that line alone tells us you can still use the ability and nothing prevents you from using it to transform into another creature. based upon this line here as per when you use the ability

That line tells us that using wildshape while transformed only extends the shape.

It necessarily follows that it doesn't change to another shape. There is still zero evidence that this can occur, just a ton of wishful thinking.

*and general to specific is that in general the shapes retain class abilities (if they are physically capable of performing them; questionable), but specifically using wild shape while transformed by wild shape extends the current wild shape.

Remember the whole thing of inventing evidence to fit a theory from the other thread? This is that again in a nutshell.

The rules never use that formulation - Normal transforms->Beast shape is NOT what the rules say, the rules say use wild shape->beast shape. They never mention a single thing about requiring you to be in your humanoid form first.

Almost missed this. The rules use the term revert in describing the change from beast form back to normal form. That word choice itself dictates the terms under which wild shape operates, which is exactly that: normal form->shape.

JoeJ

2014-11-19, 01:10 AM

Eslin

2014-11-19, 01:12 AM

That line tells us that using wildshape while transformed only extends the shape.

It necessarily follows that it doesn't change to another shape. There is still zero evidence that this can occur, just a ton of wishful thinking.

*and general to specific is that in general the shapes retain class abilities (if they are physically capable of performing them; questionable), but specifically using wild shape while transformed by wild shape extends the current wild shape.

The evidence that this can occur is the fact that A) wild shape lets you transform into a full hp beast of your choice and B) you retain your class features in wild shape, one of which is the ability to wild shape. That's all the evidence anyone needs - the game explicitly tells you what you can do, and there's no reason that you can't do it while wild shaped.

Vogonjeltz

2014-11-19, 01:15 AM

The evidence that this can occur is the fact that A) wild shape lets you transform into a full hp beast of your choice and B) you retain your class features in wild shape, one of which is the ability to wild shape. That's all the evidence anyone needs - the game explicitly tells you what you can do, and there's no reason that you can't do it while wild shaped.

As already noted, wild shaping again extends the shape, nothing more, so the parts that are specific to shaping in normal form do not and can not apply.

Bellberith

2014-11-19, 01:18 AM

Eslin

2014-11-19, 01:23 AM

As already noted, wild shaping again extends the shape, nothing more, so the parts that are specific to shaping in normal form do not and can not apply.

Wild shape can extend the form, it says 'you then revert to normal form unless you expend another use of this feature'. That does not mean wild shape can only be used to extend the form, it does nothing to interfere with wild shape's normal functionality.

Paladins also have a very heavy focus in landing their hits, but the Fighter attacking 8 times definitely gets better mileage.

The druid doesn't have to realize squat, initiative is initiative and the person who goes first is going first.
Except it doesn't work like that. What possible situation between a level 20 fighter and level 20 druid could possibly lead to it being decided by an initiative contest, and how could a fighter do enough damage to kill the druid before the druid's turn comes up and he becomes unhittable?

silveralen

2014-11-19, 01:31 AM

Wild shape can extend the form, it says 'you then revert to normal form unless you expend another use of this feature'. That does not mean wild shape can only be used to extend the form, it does nothing to interfere with wild shape's normal functionality.

Except it doesn't work like that. What possible situation between a level 20 fighter and level 20 druid could possibly lead to it being decided by an initiative contest, and how could a fighter do enough damage to kill the druid before the druid's turn comes up and he becomes unhittable?

That's your interpretation, wildshape can be used exactly as laid out with other usages outside of that up for debate. There is ambiguity, which means it will vary table to table since it never explicitly says, and the closest it comes to saying so (use class features when shifted) also comes with a caveat (if the form is capable of using those abilities) which the DM can interpret as he wishes.

Any round in which the DM rules neither side is surprised. Going by the player's handbook... any round they come together without either side specifically making an effort to stay hidden, and any situation where both sides notice the other. So...the vast majority unless your druid is now a stealth expert who sneaks around 24/7.

Again, literally any build that can nova for 200-300 damage a round. Which is a lot of common fighter builds already.

Eslin

2014-11-19, 01:51 AM

That's your interpretation, wildshape can be used exactly as laid out with other usages outside of that up for debate. There is ambiguity, which means it will vary table to table since it never explicitly says, and the closest it comes to saying so (use class features when shifted) also comes with a caveat (if the form is capable of using those abilities) which the DM can interpret as he wishes.

Any round in which the DM rules neither side is surprised. Going by the player's handbook... any round they come together without either side specifically making an effort to stay hidden, and any situation where both sides notice the other. So...the vast majority unless your druid is now a stealth expert who sneaks around 24/7.

Again, literally any build that can nova for 200-300 damage a round. Which is a lot of common fighter builds already.

There is no ambiguity, wild shape clearly gives you the ability to turn into a full hp animal, and there is absolutely no part that says you can't do that while already in animal shape. That is not ambiguous, that is you not liking the rules.

Initiative wise - not really the case. The only way for the fighter to get a turn off first is if the fighter has range and line of effect to the druid at the point that he notices the druid, who has better perception and advantage on perception/stealth checks. Otherwise if for instance they spot each other from a distance the druid can literally go to ground to avoid being hit, and if it's not from a distance the 31 passive perception means the druid's going to notice the fighter a lot sooner than the fighter notices the druid.

JoeJ

2014-11-19, 02:09 AM

Initiative wise - not really the case. The only way for the fighter to get a turn off first is if the fighter has range and line of effect to the druid at the point that he notices the druid, who has better perception and advantage on perception/stealth checks. Otherwise if for instance they spot each other from a distance the druid can literally go to ground to avoid being hit, and if it's not from a distance the 31 passive perception means the druid's going to notice the fighter a lot sooner than the fighter notices the druid.

The druid's passive perception only applies if the fighter is trying to be stealthy, which is unlikely for a Str build.

Bellberith

2014-11-19, 02:10 AM

That's your interpretation, wildshape can be used exactly as laid out with other usages outside of that up for debate. There is ambiguity, which means it will vary table to table since it never explicitly says, and the closest it comes to saying so (use class features when shifted) also comes with a caveat (if the form is capable of using those abilities) which the DM can interpret as he wishes.

Any round in which the DM rules neither side is surprised. Going by the player's handbook... any round they come together without either side specifically making an effort to stay hidden, and any situation where both sides notice the other. So...the vast majority unless your druid is now a stealth expert who sneaks around 24/7.

Again, literally any build that can nova for 200-300 damage a round. Which is a lot of common fighter builds already.

Let him play his druids, and then complain fighters are OP when more magic items get released and they are 1 rounding 320dmg like a warlock can already do. (we already have a few magic items that are very powerful)

I'm done with the back and fourth, clearly he doesn't know what initiative is and that the most common scenario is a in-party fight. Because lets face it... when is a druid going to be openly hostile toward anyone in a normal situation? And when are 2 level 20s going to be in close proximity to each other while the before situation is true...... most likely in a party.

Edit: saying he doesn't know what initiative is might be a little mean, but a fight starts with initiative. and when 2 people are currently facing one another in an argument that is escalating quickly who is surprised when it breaks out into a fight? and if your DM rules someone is surprised (i wouldnt play in that game for 1.... but IF he did) then the druid would most likely be the surprised one considering the fighter is more apt to have a temper.

But the entire point is moot considering both are probably going to have Alert and/or Foresight.... making them roll initiative as normal anyways.

Eslin

2014-11-19, 02:13 AM

Let him play his druids, and then complain fighters are OP when magic items get released and they are 1 rounding 320dmg like a warlock can already do.

I'm done with the back and fourth, clearly he doesn't know what initiative is and that the most common scenario is a in-party fight. Because lets face it... when is a druid going to be openly hostile toward anyone in a normal situation?

I do know what initiative is. It just seems very unlikely that it would come down to an initiative contest when the druid is going to know of the fighter's presence a lot earlier than the fighter will know of the druid's.

And unless they've ****ed up the balance, magic items should help warlocks just as much as fighters. If they don't then either they're equal with magic items and the fighter is worse when neither have them or they're equal without them and the fighter is better with them - neither of which are balanced options in a game where magic items are supposed to be optional for the DM.

The druid's passive perception only applies if the fighter is trying to be stealthy, which is unlikely for a Str build.

Why would how good you are at detecting other people only matter when the other person's trying to be stealthy? If they aren't, you should detect them from further away than you otherwise would have.

Bellberith

2014-11-19, 02:17 AM

I do know what initiative is. It just seems very unlikely that it would come down to an initiative contest when the druid is going to know of the fighter's presence a lot earlier than the fighter will know of the druid's.

And unless they've ****ed up the balance, magic items should help warlocks just as much as fighters. If they don't then either they're equal with magic items and the fighter is worse when neither have them or they're equal without them and the fighter is better with them - neither of which are balanced options in a game where magic items are supposed to be optional for the DM.

Why would how good you are at detecting other people only matter when the other person's trying to be stealthy? If they aren't, you should detect them from further away than you otherwise would have.

reread the edit, did it just after you posted this.

also i dont think you understand that the opportunity to be stealthy isnt there. unless you are playing a character that hides from its own party 24/7?

JoeJ

2014-11-19, 02:25 AM

Why would how good you are at detecting other people only matter when the other person's trying to be stealthy? If they aren't, you should detect them from further away than you otherwise would have.

Because that's the way perception works in this game. If somebody isn't trying to hide, you don't need passive (or active) perception to see them.

So: The druid and the fighter round the corner and see each other. Roll initiative.
Or, they both enter the arena to the roars of the crowd. Roll initiative.
Or, their argument in the tavern turns violent. Roll initiative.

Eslin

2014-11-19, 02:50 AM

Because that's the way perception works in this game. If somebody isn't trying to hide, you don't need passive (or active) perception to see them.

So: The druid and the fighter round the corner and see each other. Roll initiative.
Or, they both enter the arena to the roars of the crowd. Roll initiative.
Or, their argument in the tavern turns violent. Roll initiative.
Sure, this is workable. If the druid and fighter are level 20, they know the other is in the area, so the druid's not going to risk walking around the corner, he's going to be under the ground, wearing someone else's face, stonemelding his way through buildings or high in the air.
If they're both entering the arena, the druid's aware of what is happening and is entering as an earth elemental 20 feet below the ground.
If their argument in a tavern is looking to turn violent, the high insight druid is not going to wait for things to turn violent. You don't get to level 20 by sitting there in melee when a fight's looking to break out, you reverse gravity or put a wall of stone between the two of you and leave. I gotta reiterate, a level 20 druid is wise and doesn't get to level 20 by doing idiot things like arguing in a bar with a level 20 fighter, the wise don't give in to pride.

Side note - are you honestly claiming perception is only relevant to other creatures if they're actively trying to hide? If you the top of a hill and you look for, say, an army of orcs in the distance who have taken two halflings prisoner, you ask the guy with the good perception skill what is elf eyes see. As the DM, you'd honestly make it that the guy with 11 passive perception and the guy with 31 passive perception spot things in the distance at the exact same time?

reread the edit, did it just after you posted this.

also i dont think you understand that the opportunity to be stealthy isnt there. unless you are playing a character that hides from its own party 24/7?
If they're party mates, why would it matter? The rest of the party will intervene, it's not a druid vs fighter case any more. If two party mates hate each other for some reason then victory's going to the one who cuts the other's throat in the night.

JoeJ

2014-11-19, 03:14 AM

Sure, this is workable. If the druid and fighter are level 20, they know the other is in the area, so the druid's not going to risk walking around the corner, he's going to be under the ground, wearing someone else's face, stonemelding his way through buildings or high in the air.

Then the question of who wins is moot; the fight was avoided. That druid's not going to have much of a life, though, if he hides underground all the time and is afraid to even walk around corners.

If they're both entering the arena, the druid's aware of what is happening and is entering as an earth elemental 20 feet below the ground.

In that case, the druid violated the rules, so the fighter wins by default.

If their argument in a tavern is looking to turn violent, the high insight druid is not going to wait for things to turn violent. You don't get to level 20 by sitting there in melee when a fight's looking to break out, you reverse gravity or put a wall of stone between the two of you and leave. I gotta reiterate, a level 20 druid is wise and doesn't get to level 20 by doing idiot things like arguing in a bar with a level 20 fighter, the wise don't give in to pride.

Initiative is rolled when the druid tries to cast reverse gravity or wall of stone. Maybe the spell goes off in time, maybe it doesn't.

Side note - are you honestly claiming perception is only relevant to other creatures if they're actively trying to hide? If you the top of a hill and you look for, say, an army of orcs in the distance who have taken two halflings prisoner, you ask the guy with the good perception skill what is elf eyes see. As the DM, you'd honestly make it that the guy with 11 passive perception and the guy with 31 passive perception spot things in the distance at the exact same time?

The rules for passive perception are on p. 176. The surprise rules are on p. 189. Passive perception is compared with the Dex (stealth) check of whomever is trying to hide. It's not used to "find" somebody who isn't hidden. (And looking for an army, or anything else, is not a passive check of any kind.)

Eslin

2014-11-19, 03:40 AM

Then the question of who wins is moot; the fight was avoided. That druid's not going to have much of a life, though, if he hides underground all the time and is afraid to even walk around corners.
The druid's not afraid to walk around corners, he's just not an idiot. A level 20 fighter is much more dangerous than, say, a rabid tiger. If you knew there was a rabid tiger nearby but you were capable of observing it without being caught by going underground or flying, why wouldn't you? Again, a wise man doesn't get to level 20 by letting pride dictates his actions.

In that case, the druid violated the rules, so the fighter wins by default.
What rules? Why on earth would a level 20 druid be stupid enough to be visible in a fight he knew was coming?

Initiative is rolled when the druid tries to cast reverse gravity or wall of stone. Maybe the spell goes off in time, maybe it doesn't.
If he does it before anyone else tries to act, he gets his turn first.

The rules for passive perception are on p. 176. The surprise rules are on p. 189. Passive perception is compared with the Dex (stealth) check of whomever is trying to hide. It's not used to "find" somebody who isn't hidden. (And looking for an army, or anything else, is not a passive check of any kind.)
An object makes a low humming noise, which can be heard as you approach. A building is barely in the far distance. The hobgoblin's corpse has been left to rot.

Are you suggesting that in all of these cases, each character observes these phenomena at precisely the same distance away? That all have exactly identical ability to notice things? And if not, would you not use perception as the determining factor?

Demonicattorney

2014-11-19, 04:07 AM

There is no winning with Eslin, all of his high-level characters have perfect foresight and are paranoid. Every character will be using all of their abilities at all times to the maximum potential, regardless of whether it makes sense or not.

Here's the thing, nobody thinks the Druid is favored unless he wildshapes every turn in order to heal himself. That alone tells you that Fighters are at least on par non-moon druid builds. The game isn't played purely at level 20, so the fighter seems competitive in the 19 levels before 20 as well. In fact, its far better to be a good class throughout the game than just at the end.

Morever, Druids dont get to keep the magical properties of their armor and weapons in wildshape, so how exactly do they get equal benefit? Also, the HP of these test druids seem alittle high, they only get around 165 with a 16 con, so I'm not sure where we are getting 200+ unless there is some weirdo, dwarf/stack con action going on, (which is frankly a strange druid to RP), and doesn't make much sense considering Con has no impact on your HP while wild-shaped (unless your worried about getting nova'd in a fairly niche playtest scenario).

TheDeadlyShoe

2014-11-19, 04:13 AM

I think it'd be interesting if a druid is knocked out of a wildshape form, they can no longer assume that form until they complete a rest.

There is no ambiguity, wild shape clearly gives you the ability to turn into a full hp animal, and there is absolutely no part that says you can't do that while already in animal shape. That is not ambiguous, that is you not liking the rules.

There is ambiguity. A wildshape'd druid may use class features if the form is capable of using those features; there is no RAW guarantee that beasts or elementals can use wildshape. DMs could even make such a call on a case-by-case basis, like saying that Elementals are not capable of wildshaping.

Ashrym

2014-11-19, 04:34 AM

Which isn't quite the case - a fighter gets twice as many attacks with a magic sword as a paladin, but since the paladin's attacks do more the extra accuracy benefits the paladin just as much. And I can and will discount magic items, since we have a vague idea of what the fighter can use and no idea at all for the druid.

Magic weapons do exist in the released material; +3 is the top bonus. It doesn't make sense to ignore what does exist because of what does not exist or what might some day exist. It's rather moot, however, because equipment normally merges into the form or drops to the ground. In either case the equipment won't benefit the druid while wildshaped anyway.

And again, how would the fighter nuke him down? In almost no context will the fighter be in a position to do so, since with better perception and infinite shapeshifting the druid is unlikely to be attacked before he has a chance to realise what's going on and wind wall or just go underground.

Next question: An action surging fighter gets 8 attacks per round, and will usually need to burn through about 300hp at about 17 AC. How is a fighter going to do 300hp with 8 attacks at disadvantage (given its use, duration and lack of concentration, any 9th level character that engages in combat is almost guarantee to be foresighted)

The disadvantage from foresight can be countered by advantage from another source. Improved invisibility on an eldritch knight, for example.

Wind wall has material components and cannot be cast in wildshape. Beast spells allows for verbal and somatic components but not material. In order to cast a lot of spells the druid needs to spend the bonus action to return to normal form and will be susceptible to that massive damage by returning to normal form for regular casting. That's kind of like an Achille's Heal moment.

The entire issue with the comparison is in that the druid and fighter would would together against monsters, and the druid won't be doing the damage the fighter can. The druid is also better off to cast foresight on the fighter instead of himself for more effective use of the spell.

Eslin

2014-11-19, 05:03 AM

I think it'd be interesting if a druid is knocked out of a wildshape form, they can no longer assume that form until they complete a rest.

There is ambiguity. A wildshape'd druid may use class features if the form is capable of using those features; there is no RAW guarantee that beasts or elementals can use wildshape. DMs could even make such a call on a case-by-case basis, like saying that Elementals are not capable of wildshaping.
Nor are beasts capable of being immune to poison and disease, and yet the druid retains those capabilities. The druid retains any class feature that the new form can physically do - and since wild shape doesn't have any physical requirements (unlike say spellcasting), you clearly retain that ability.

There is no winning with Eslin, all of his high-level characters have perfect foresight and are paranoid. Every character will be using all of their abilities at all times to the maximum potential, regardless of whether it makes sense or not.
My characters don't have perfectly foresight, but they do have the closest anyone can come to it, the foresight spell. And yes, they're paranoid. I've never had a character survive to 20 that wasted resources or took risks they didn't anticipate a greater return in investment from.

Here's the thing, nobody thinks the Druid is favored unless he wildshapes every turn in order to heal himself. That alone tells you that Fighters are at least on par non-moon druid builds. The game isn't played purely at level 20, so the fighter seems competitive in the 19 levels before 20 as well. In fact, its far better to be a good class throughout the game than just at the end.
In terms of being competitive - this is about one on one fights between characters, a rare occurrence. If we want to measure how useful the characters are, the fighter comes up absurdly short - the druid does less melee damage, but can take far more, which makes it something of a wash where taking and dealing hp damage is concerned. In terms of the rest of the game, the fighter can't come close to comparing to the druid's usefulness. The druid can scout, fly, heal, raise the dead, control the weather, talk to plants and animals, let the party breathe in or walk on water, let the party fly to their destination, magically track, shift planes and a dozen other things and I haven't even mentioned their in combat utility like wall of stone and sleet storm.

Morever, Druids dont get to keep the magical properties of their armor and weapons in wildshape, so how exactly do they get equal benefit? Also, the HP of these test druids seem alittle high, they only get around 165 with a 16 con, so I'm not sure where we are getting 200+ unless there is some weirdo, dwarf/stack con action going on, (which is frankly a strange druid to RP), and doesn't make much sense considering Con has no impact on your HP while wild-shaped (unless your worried about getting nova'd in a fairly niche playtest scenario).
A druid will have 20 constitution by level 20, they only really need wisdom and constitution so there's no reason they wouldn't end up with maximum constitution by 20. Druids can choose whether their equipment stays on, merges with them or falls to the ground when they wildshape, and there will certainly be magic items that are meant for shifting between forms. How do I know?
Two reasons. One, druids kept their magical items functioning last edition and were able to by the end of the edition before that - the company knows it works, they aren't gonna turn around and make druids unable to wear magical items. Two, not letting druids wear magic items means they're either too strong when no-one has any or too weak when everyone does, and while they may screw up balance sometimes they're not going to deliberately ruin it when the logic's so clear.

Magic weapons do exist in the released material; +3 is the top bonus. It doesn't make sense to ignore what does exist because of what does not exist or what might some day exist. It's rather moot, however, because equipment normally merges into the form or drops to the ground. In either case the equipment won't benefit the druid while wildshaped anyway Equipment can be kept if it is wearable, and considering how obviously necessary to balance it is they will make sure druid friendly magic items will be in the DMG. And it does make sense to ignore what does exist when we know we have an incomplete picture - it would be like having a battle between a barbarian and a paladin before the PHB was released when we knew everything about the barbarian but had no information about the paladin's subclasses. When forming a theory, you never include incomplete evidence.

The disadvantage from foresight can be countered by advantage from another source. Improved invisibility on an eldritch knight, for example.

Wind wall has material components and cannot be cast in wildshape. Beast spells allows for verbal and somatic components but not material. In order to cast a lot of spells the druid needs to spend the bonus action to return to normal form and will be susceptible to that massive damage by returning to normal form for regular casting. That's kind of like an Achille's Heal moment.

The entire issue with the comparison is in that the druid and fighter would would together against monsters, and the druid won't be doing the damage the fighter can. The druid is also better off to cast foresight on the fighter instead of himself for more effective use of the spell.
Yes, advantage can be cancelled out. I'd imagine you'd want to do so where possible, it seems practical.

And yes, that is the issue with the comparison, we're imagining two characters that weren't balanced against each other dueling. The druid's ability to infinitely replenish their hit points is not so useful in ordinary combat because monsters can just target something else, such abilities only become overwhelming when taken out of context.

Rack

2014-11-19, 05:08 AM

archaeo

2014-11-19, 08:25 AM

Physically capable of doing so. If an elf is physically capable of wildshaping so is a bear. The rules are as clear cut as they are stupid. This one needs house ruling.

Isn't the mere fact that lots of reasonable people seem to be disagreeing about how to read these rules evidence of ambiguity? Neither side is depending on actual words that say "A Druid may transform from one beast shape into another" or the opposite; we're all reading into the rules, to a greater or lesser degree. It seems super obviously ambiguous to me.

Personally, I think all Archdruid needs is forbidding beast-to-beast transformation, since it at least means level 20 Druids have to spend all their actions for a turn refreshing their HP. Anything else starts to get into some really goofy HP bookkeeping that isn't altogether necessary when characters are supposed to be at the peak of their prowess. If you have to call it a house rule to use it, go ahead, I guess? The only difference between "RAW" and "house rule" here is how much more superior you get to feel w/r/t WotC.

Eslin

2014-11-19, 08:36 AM

Isn't the mere fact that lots of reasonable people seem to be disagreeing about how to read these rules evidence of ambiguity? Neither side is depending on actual words that say "A Druid may transform from one beast shape into another" or the opposite; we're all reading into the rules, to a greater or lesser degree. It seems super obviously ambiguous to me.
No, it isn't. The rules very clearly state you can transform into the CR appropriate beast or elemental of your choosing, and there is no part of them that suggests you lose this ability when wild shaped - indeed, it specifically tells you you keep class abilities. That does not contain a single trace of ambiguity, the difference is that a lot of people don't like the idea of the rules working the way they do.

I will now use an example to illustrate the difference: Much of the wizarding world is prejudiced against muggleborns, despite the fact that there is no difference in ability between a muggleborn and a half or pure blood. They want or believe the world to work a different way than it does, one in which muggleborns are inferior. They're wrong, but there are many of them, and they all claim that they are correct and muggleborns are not their equals. The rational man looks at the body of evidence and he says 'it is clear, in the end there is no difference in ability between a muggleborn and a wizardborn', but the blood purist who wants things to be different says 'but wait, many people disagree! Doesn't the fact that so many people disagree mean this is an ambiguous issue? We can't be sure!', but he is incorrect. The issue is not ambiguous.

archaeo

2014-11-19, 09:05 AM

No, it isn't. The rules very clearly state you can transform into the CR appropriate beast or elemental of your choosing, and there is no part of them that suggests you lose this ability when wild shaped - indeed, it specifically tells you you keep class abilities. That does not contain a single trace of ambiguity, the difference is that a lot of people don't like the idea of the rules working the way they do.

And yet I, and several other people in this very thread, have honestly said that we read the rules in another way. I mean, assume bad faith if you want, Eslin, but I sincerely read the rules and came to the conclusion that beast-to-beast transformations are verboten.

I will now use an example to illustrate the difference: Much of the wizarding world is prejudiced against muggleborns, despite the fact that there is no difference in ability between a muggleborn and a half or pure blood. They want or believe the world to work a different way than it does, one in which muggleborns are inferior. They're wrong, but there are many of them, and they all claim that they are correct and muggleborns are not their equals. The rational man looks at the body of evidence and he says 'it is clear, in the end there is no difference in ability between a muggleborn and a wizardborn', but the blood purist who wants things to be different says 'but wait, many people disagree! Doesn't the fact that so many people disagree mean this is an ambiguous issue? We can't be sure!', but he is incorrect. The issue is not ambiguous.

Did...you just compare me to Voldemort?

The really super clear difference here man is the fact that there isn't a "body of evidence." There are a few "naturally worded" sentences. No clarification from Mearls et al., no operationally defined game terms, etc. Just a couple lines in Wild Shape and a bullet point on the following page.

Eslin

2014-11-19, 09:22 AM

And yet I, and several other people in this very thread, have honestly said that we read the rules in another way. I mean, assume bad faith if you want, Eslin, but I sincerely read the rules and came to the conclusion that beast-to-beast transformations are verboten.
I kind of am assuming bad faith, considering how clear the rules are.

Did...you just compare me to Voldemort?
You can't prove that!

The really super clear difference here man is the fact that there isn't a "body of evidence." There are a few "naturally worded" sentences. No clarification from Mearls et al., no operationally defined game terms, etc. Just a couple lines in Wild Shape and a bullet point on the following page.
Yeah, all there is is the text telling you you can use an ability to turn into an animal and telling you you retain that ability while in animal form. That's all the evidence needed, just as the bit that says 8d6 fire damage is all the evidence needed that fireball does 8d6 damage.

Giant2005

2014-11-19, 09:28 AM

How do I know?
Two reasons. One, druids kept their magical items functioning last edition and were able to by the end of the edition before that - the company knows it works, they aren't gonna turn around and make druids unable to wear magical items. Two, not letting druids wear magic items means they're either too strong when no-one has any or too weak when everyone does, and while they may screw up balance sometimes they're not going to deliberately ruin it when the logic's so clear.
I have a third reason! And it is the most significant reason...
The items are already in the game. Magic items change their size to fit the wearer - the Wildshaped Druid can wear some +1 leather, some bracers of defense, Insignia of Claws, various rings or even the Black Dragon Mask. Magic items aren't being excluded because they aren't in the game, they are being excluded because it is advantageous to the Druid to exclude them.

it specifically tells you you keep class abilities.
You keep forgetting to include the operative part of that quote; the piece that is most relevant to the discussion - the piece where it specifically states that you only keep those class abilities if the form you are in is physically capable of performing those same abilities. The cartoon "Beast Wars" was a work of fiction, animals don't really do that sort of thing in real life, nor the DnD setting.

If an elf is physically capable of wildshaping so is a bear.
Yet an Elf is physically capable of casting spells and the same is not true for the bear unless it has a specific high level exception. Just because an Elf is capable of something doesn't mean a bear is - the evidence suggests the opposite.

Eslin

2014-11-19, 09:52 AM

I have a third reason! And it is the most significant reason...
The items are already in the game. Magic items change their size to fit the wearer - the Wildshaped Druid can wear some +1 leather, some bracers of defense, Insignia of Claws, various rings or even the Black Dragon Mask. Magic items aren't being excluded because they aren't in the game, they are being excluded because it is advantageous to the Druid to exclude them.
No, they're being excluded because we have a very small selection and no idea what type and how many's worth a level 20 character would have. Again, insufficient evidence, using it for the theory would not be fitting.

You keep forgetting to include the operative part of that quote; the piece that is most relevant to the discussion - the piece where it specifically states that you only keep those class abilities if the form you are in is physically capable of performing those same abilities. The cartoon "Beast Wars" was a work of fiction, animals don't really do that sort of thing in real life, nor the DnD setting.

Yet an Elf is physically capable of casting spells and the same is not true for the bear unless it has a specific high level exception. Just because an Elf is capable of something doesn't mean a bear is - the evidence suggests the opposite.
Spellcasting is an ability that specifies verbal and somatic components an animal cannot do. Wild shape requires no such thing. The evidence does not suggest the opposite, the evidence is a weak positive instead - since we have example of abilities requiring specific bodyparts (such as verbal and somatic components for spells) we know that they could have included them in wild shape if they wanted wild shape to work that way, but they decided not to do so. Wild shape does not rely on any physical bodypart to use any more than action surge does.

archaeo

2014-11-19, 10:07 AM

Yeah, all there is is the text telling you you can use an ability to turn into an animal and telling you you retain that ability while in animal form. That's all the evidence needed, just as the bit that says 8d6 fire damage is all the evidence needed that fireball does 8d6 damage.

As literally just pointed out, it says you can use the ability if you're physically capable of doing so. You defend that with:

Spellcasting is an ability that specifies verbal and somatic components an animal cannot do. Wild shape requires no such thing. The evidence does not suggest the opposite, the evidence is a weak positive instead - since we have example of abilities requiring specific bodyparts (such as verbal and somatic components for spells) we know that they could have included them in wild shape if they wanted wild shape to work that way, but they decided not to do so. Wild shape does not rely on any physical bodypart to use any more than action surge does.

The entire Wild Shape section is written with the premise that you are leaving your normal shape and taking a beast shape. The feature also explicitly says you can't cast spells, and while Wild Shape isn't a spell, it sure does seem like magic!

But whatever, I know that nobody's going to convince you that this is what the rules say, especially with that last weak point I made -- all the other points have been repeated, forever, always, in every Druid thread. But it would be nice if you and others would at least admit that ambiguity exists here. The rules just aren't clear enough; neither of us is depending on a definite rule, like the book saying "You may use Wild Shape while already in a beast form" or vice versa, but on sloppily defined terms like "features" and "beast/creature" and other junk.

But I guess if you just want to think of us as wrong people who are outright incorrect, whatever, that's fine too.

Giant2005

2014-11-19, 10:20 AM

No, they're being excluded because we have a very small selection and no idea what type and how many's worth a level 20 character would have. Again, insufficient evidence, using it for the theory would not be fitting.
So what is the point of the theory in the first place? If you can't or won't pose a complete scenario, the scenario itself has no value.

Spellcasting is an ability that specifies verbal and somatic components an animal cannot do. Wild shape requires no such thing. The evidence does not suggest the opposite, the evidence is a weak positive instead - since we have example of abilities requiring specific bodyparts (such as verbal and somatic components for spells) we know that they could have included them in wild shape if they wanted wild shape to work that way, but they decided not to do so. Wild shape does not rely on any physical bodypart to use any more than action surge does.

An Elemental can perform both verbal and somatic components and is still excluded from spellcasting while Wildshaped without the exempting ability.

Shining Wrath

2014-11-19, 10:22 AM

I'd like to point out you can only have Foresight on 8 hours per day, at the cost of your 9th level slot. I would argue that many, many, many level 20 full casters would not have Foresight on when, say, the situation in the tavern went south. They might not even have it on when rounding a corner in a dungeon; yes, the dungeon is a dangerous place where Foresight would be prudent, but you might want to use your 9th level slot for something else, or at least hold it in reserve.

Therefore, Eslin, I must argue that assuming that every person who could have Foresight therefore does have it at the start of every thought experiment is inaccurate. At best you have a 50 / 50 chance, and that's only by assuming that the caster has a perfectly safe place to rest for 8 hours a night. Given the number of useful 9th level spells available to Druids, the real odds are probably closer to 1/5 or even 1/10.

Eslin

2014-11-19, 10:27 AM

As literally just pointed out, it says you can use the ability if you're physically capable of doing so. You defend that with:

The entire Wild Shape section is written with the premise that you are leaving your normal shape and taking a beast shape. The feature also explicitly says you can't cast spells, and while Wild Shape isn't a spell, it sure does seem like magic!

But whatever, I know that nobody's going to convince you that this is what the rules say, especially with that last weak point I made -- all the other points have been repeated, forever, always, in every Druid thread. But it would be nice if you and others would at least admit that ambiguity exists here. The rules just aren't clear enough; neither of us is depending on a definite rule, like the book saying "You may use Wild Shape while already in a beast form" or vice versa, but on sloppily defined terms like "features" and "beast/creature" and other junk.

But I guess if you just want to think of us as wrong people who are outright incorrect, whatever, that's fine too.
Yes, wild shape seems like magic. I'd say it seems like magic because it is magic, just as dragon wings and divine smite and a hundred things are supernatural but aren't spells and so don't require specific body parts to use (well, draconic wings requires a back, but most things have backs).

I'm not going to admit to any ambiguity because there isn't any. Your class features give you the ability to change into a beast, you explicitly keep those features even when you change into a beast. Therefore you can use it again while you're already transformed. It SAYS you keep your class features, which include the ability to wildshape. So why on earth would you not be able to?

So what is the point of the theory in the first place? If you can't or won't pose a complete scenario, the scenario itself has no value.

An Elemental can perform both verbal and somatic components and is still excluded from spellcasting while Wildshaped without the exempting ability.
I have a complete scenario, it just has no magic items for either side. Since the only way to balance magic items is for all classes to find them equally useful and they wouldn't deliberately unbalance their own game we can posit that taking magic items from both sides leaves them equal.

Giant2005

2014-11-19, 10:34 AM

Yes, wild shape seems like magic. I'd say it seems like magic because it is magic, just as dragon wings and divine smite and a hundred things are supernatural but aren't spells and so don't require specific body parts to use (well, draconic wings requires a back, but most things have backs).

I'm not going to admit to any ambiguity because there isn't any. Your class features give you the ability to change into a beast, you explicitly keep those features even when you change into a beast. Therefore you can use it again while you're already transformed. It SAYS you keep your class features, which include the ability to wildshape. So why on earth would you not be able to?
As already stated repeatedly (At this point it is almost like you are sticking your fingers in your ears and intentionally ignoring contrary statements): That quote you keep pulling out is incomplete, the operative part is the fact that you can only keep those class abilities if you shift into a form that is physically capable of using them. As of now, there are currently no beast or elemental forms that have been releqased that are capable of using Wildshape.

I have a complete scenario, it just has no magic items for either side. Since the only way to balance magic items is for all classes to find them equally useful and they wouldn't deliberately unbalance their own game we can posit that taking magic items from both sides leaves them equal.

No. We can say with 100% certainty that the Fighter gets more use out of magic items than every other class due to having more attacks, he gets more procs with those magic weapons than anyone else. The Fighter has been balanced around that very fact - having more attacks is his strength and any scenario where you deny him that strength is too riddled with bias to hold any relevance. It isn't because the game is unbalanced, it is because the scenario you are posing is unbalanced.

Eslin

2014-11-19, 10:42 AM

As already stated repeatedly (At this point it is almost like you are sticking your fingers in your ears and intentionally ignoring contrary statements): That quote you keep pulling out is incomplete, the operative part is the fact that you can only keep those class abilities if you shift into a form that is physically capable of using them. As of now, there are currently no beast or elemental forms that have been releqased that are capable of using Wildshape.

No. We can say with 100% certainty that the Fighter gets more use out of magic items than every other class due to having more attacks, he gets more procs with those magic weapons than anyone else. The Fighter has been balanced around that very fact - having more attacks is his strength and any scenario where you deny him that strength is too riddled with bias to hold any relevance. It isn't because the game is unbalanced, it is because the scenario you are posing is unbalanced.
No, I'm not ignoring contrary statements. If there are no beast or elemental forms physically capable of using wildshape then there are no humanoids that can either. The relevant section says 'if they are physically capable of using them' - wildshape, being a magical ability that doesn't rely on words and gestures like some other magical abilities do, has no physical requirement.

The fighter can't have been balanced around needing magic items, since they stated very clearly that magic items are optional this edition. If the fighter's balanced around using magical items then the fighter is either A) weaker than other classes without them or B) stronger than other classes with them, which is not a particularly complicated piece of logic, and the designers would not have set out to deliberately unbalance the classes.

archaeo

2014-11-19, 10:44 AM

I'm not going to admit to any ambiguity because there isn't any. Your class features give you the ability to change into a beast, you explicitly keep those features even when you change into a beast. Therefore you can use it again while you're already transformed. It SAYS you keep your class features, which include the ability to wildshape. So why on earth would you not be able to?

Why on earth should you be able to? The only thing Wild Shape explicitly says you can do while in beast form is expend a use to extend the transformation. Everything else just assumes that you're "physically capable" of using Wild Shape while in beast form, a contention I think reasonable DMs are totally at liberty to disagree about.

The way I see it, there are three possibilities:

1) My interpretation is correct. Archdruid, while very powerful, requires every action you can take the turn you revert and transform again if you're a Moon Druid and is impossible to use to refresh HP as a Land Druid.

2) Your interpretation is correct, but it's entirely unintentional. It's a bug, and it will be duly errata'd next year.

3) Your interpretation is correct and intentional. Numerous people, both at WotC and their playtesters and consultants, looked at Archdruid, thought about it, and decided, "hey, it's a great idea to include an ability that gives 100+ HP every turn as a bonus action."

Perseus

2014-11-19, 10:53 AM

.

3) Your interpretation is correct and intentional. Numerous people, both at WotC and their playtesters and consultants, looked at Archdruid, thought about it, and decided, "hey, it's a great idea to include an ability that gives 100+ HP every turn as a bonus action."

And why would this surprise you?

We are talking about WotC here after all.

Hell, look at the Cleric's capstone of " yo god, get down here and do something for me". Edit: And it works 100% of the time.

They tend to devalue strong things and overvalue weak things. Going by what the text says (you get to keep your class features) and by WotC logic... It seems like you are getting your RAI thumb in the RAW pie.

Giant2005

2014-11-19, 10:55 AM

The fighter can't have been balanced around needing magic items, since they stated very clearly that magic items are optional this edition. If the fighter's balanced around using magical items then the fighter is either A) weaker than other classes without them or B) stronger than other classes with them, which is not a particularly complicated piece of logic, and the designers would not have set out to deliberately unbalance the classes.

No it isn't a complicated piece of logic but it is a deeply flawed piece of logic.
If a Fighter and Druid are balanced without magic items and are still balanced with magic items even though a Fighter has 4x the number of attacks, then the Druid's magic weapon is 4x as powerful as the Fighter's. That also means that something like a Barbarian with only two attacks per round is no longer balanced with the Druid if he has the magic sword due to him only having two attacks and the Druid's equipment being balanced around the Fighter's 4 attacks. Your "uncomplicated" logic isn't logical at all.
If 5e follows the route of 4e and gives spellcasters items that increase their spell damage at all, they have to be balanced with the standard two attacks that Martials have available. the Fighter is the exception that will always gain more benefit from magic weapons due to having more attacks than the norm.
Although that is all theory. I don't actually believe for a second that spellcasters will have weapons that enhance their spell damage in the same way as martial weaponry does. They might get focuses that increase attack modifiers and damage by a fixed enchantment level but they won't get extra variables like +2D6 fire damage or whatever like martials do - it would be impossible to balance such a mechanic with the huge variation in spellcasting (Scorching Ray is the obvious issue).

archaeo

2014-11-19, 11:04 AM

And why would this surprise you?

We are talking about WotC here after all.

Hell, look at the Cleric's capstone of " yo god, get down here and do something for me". Edit: And it works 100% of the time.

They tend to devalue strong things and overvalue weak things. Going by what the text says (you get to keep your class features) and by WotC logic... It seems like you are getting your RAI thumb in the RAW pie.

I'd be surprised because I think 5e is an otherwise well-designed and reasonably balanced game? I mean, the Cleric capstone is essentially a slightly more powerful wish you can use one time every week. How does that compare with an ability that literally gives you 100+ HP every turn for the mere cost of a bonus action?

Sorry for sticking my thumb in a rotten pie, I guess? My interpretation, which does not seem like an unreasonable twisting of the rules at all, at least gives the ability the semblance of balance. I assure you, I'll sleep fine tonight even though I've sullied the purity of RAW with my reading.

Eslin

2014-11-19, 11:14 AM

No it isn't a complicated piece of logic but it is a deeply flawed piece of logic.
If a Fighter and Druid are balanced without magic items and are still balanced with magic items even though a Fighter has 4x the number of attacks, then the Druid's magic weapon is 4x as powerful as the Fighter's. That also means that something like a Barbarian with only two attacks per round is no longer balanced with the Druid if he has the magic sword due to him only having two attacks and the Druid's equipment being balanced around the Fighter's 4 attacks. Your "uncomplicated" logic isn't logical at all.
If 5e follows the route of 4e and gives spellcasters items that increase their spell damage at all, they have to be balanced with the standard two attacks that Martials have available. the Fighter is the exception that will always gain more benefit from magic weapons due to having more attacks than the norm.
Although that is all theory. I don't actually believe for a second that spellcasters will have weapons that enhance their spell damage in the same way as martial weaponry does. They might get focuses that increase attack modifiers and damage by a fixed enchantment level but they won't get extra variables like +2D6 fire damage or whatever like martials do - it would be impossible to balance such a mechanic with the huge variation in spellcasting (Scorching Ray is the obvious issue).

Not really how that works. A generic magic sword is, for the most part, best in the hands of a fighter because they get more attacks with them (there are fringe cases but on the whole, the fighter's best). That doesn't equate to magic items being best on the fighter, just as an item which boosts your radiant damage wouldn't make magic items best on the paladin. They know the mistakes of previous editions, and overall I would be very surprised if magic items didn't benefit everyone around equally - but equally does not have to mean the same.

That's why I don't include magic items in these kind of calculations, we don't know what more than a very small percentage of magic items will look like.

Ashrym

2014-11-19, 01:48 PM

Not really how that works. A generic magic sword is, for the most part, best in the hands of a fighter because they get more attacks with them (there are fringe cases but on the whole, the fighter's best). That doesn't equate to magic items being best on the fighter, just as an item which boosts your radiant damage wouldn't make magic items best on the paladin. They know the mistakes of previous editions, and overall I would be very surprised if magic items didn't benefit everyone around equally - but equally does not have to mean the same.

That's why I don't include magic items in these kind of calculations, we don't know what more than a very small percentage of magic items will look like.

Wildshape states the items fall off or merge into the form. Wildshape also states the druid does not gain benefit from merged items. We do know magic weapons and items exist and common or uncommon are pretty safe to assume by level 20 with the exception of some campaign specific styles.

Not including magic items is ignoring a benefit for one class simply because a similar benefit doesn't exist for the other class. That's like deciding to ignore wildshape as an option because there might be a fighter subclass with the ability someday. A good analysis doesn't ignore existing options.

Things can change, definitely, but things are also what they are now.

It's not really a negative demonstration of a fighter when no classes are overcoming moon druid 20th level wildshape hit points. Just the opposite -- it demonstrates strong damage ability because it's always the class players look at in the comparisons because of the extremely high single target sustainable and burst damage.

BlueBiscuit

2014-11-19, 03:20 PM

I probably should have said this before, but the reason I said +1 greatsword for the Fighter is because otherwise the Druid's elemental shapes would make any fighter build other than the EK too weak. The +1 is there exclusively to make the fighter competitive, because we don't know much about magic items yet.
So the fighter's weapon is, for the purpose of discussion, simply magical.

silveralen

2014-11-19, 03:25 PM

Bellberith

2014-11-19, 03:54 PM

If he does it before anyone else tries to act, he gets his turn first.

That would be called a surprise round, and when everyone is expecting something to happen, it isn't surprise.... it is called initiative rolls. Maybe you should do a quick once over on that section on the phb.

Another thing, no level 20 fighter in his right mind would be without Alert. So regardless the druid can't act first without an initiative roll in ANY situation.

MaxWilson

2014-11-19, 04:02 PM

Personally, I think all Archdruid needs is forbidding beast-to-beast transformation, since it at least means level 20 Druids have to spend all their actions for a turn refreshing their HP. Anything else starts to get into some really goofy HP bookkeeping that isn't altogether necessary when characters are supposed to be at the peak of their prowess. If you have to call it a house rule to use it, go ahead, I guess? The only difference between "RAW" and "house rule" here is how much more superior you get to feel w/r/t WotC.

Forbidding beast-to-beast transformation may work as a nerf for Archdruid, but from a fluff perspective it makes druids lamer for the 19 levels preceding it. A bear turning into a fish is cool. If you want to nerf Archdruid, nerf the capstone directly.

silveralen

2014-11-19, 04:50 PM

Forbidding beast-to-beast transformation may work as a nerf for Archdruid, but from a fluff perspective it makes druids lamer for the 19 levels preceding it. A bear turning into a fish is cool. If you want to nerf Archdruid, nerf the capstone directly.

It's entirely pointless for the Druid to do so for the first 19 levels. In combat, he'd be wasting temporary HP (since he can do two shifts per). Out of combat, the difference would be a matter of seconds. The bear jumping towards the lake and having his body shift from bear-human-fish is awesome regardless.

MaxWilson

2014-11-19, 04:58 PM

It's entirely pointless for the Druid to do so for the first 19 levels. In combat, he'd be wasting temporary HP (since he can do two shifts per). Out of combat, the difference would be a matter of seconds. The bear jumping towards the lake and having his body shift from bear-human-fish is awesome weird and disturbing regardless.

Fixed that for you.

silveralen

2014-11-19, 05:05 PM

Fixed that for you.

So... bear->fish is awesome.

Bear->human->fish is disturbing.

I'm confused but okay.

Vogonjeltz

2014-11-19, 05:30 PM

Wild shape can extend the form, it says 'you then revert to normal form unless you expend another use of this feature'.

Yes, that's exactly what I said. Wildshaping extends the form. That's all that is offered up.

That does not mean wild shape can only be used to extend the form, it does nothing to interfere with wild shape's normal functionality.

The normal functionality of Wild Shape is to transform from normal form to Beast Shape. The only listed functionality of Wild Shape while in Beast Shape is extension of Wild Shape duration.

Much of the text of the Wild Shape ability is only applicable when transforming from Normal form to a Beast Shape.

That's your interpretation, wildshape can be used exactly as laid out with other usages outside of that up for debate. There is ambiguity, which means it will vary table to table since it never explicitly says, and the closest it comes to saying so (use class features when shifted) also comes with a caveat (if the form is capable of using those abilities) which the DM can interpret as he wishes.

There is no ambiguity

If I want to be ironic, I can agree with Eslin on this, but only because I believe he's unambiguously wrong in his reading of the text.

Let him play his druids, and then complain fighters are OP when more magic items get released and they are 1 rounding 320dmg like a warlock can already do. (we already have a few magic items that are very powerful)

Don't get me wrong, I believe in live and let live in terms of how people want to play the game. But this point is crucial to the question of the original poster (how would a level 20 druid compare to a level 20 fighter).

The consequences of each reading are thus:
If we accept Eslin's reading, then I would say the Druid approach's unkillable status simply because it could turn into an Earth Elemental every round, giving itself a 126 hp buffer.

If we accept my reading, then the Druid is a formidable, but equal, foe to the other classes. There's a reasonable chance of each winning, varying based on actions taken and circumstances.

I know, the outcome shouldn't matter, but do you really think WoTC would be like: "Oh yeah, we should totally give someone a 126 hp shield EVERY ROUND...nothing can go wrong with this feature. Brilliant!"

If their argument in a tavern is looking to turn violent, the high insight druid is not going to wait for things to turn violent. You don't get to level 20 by sitting there in melee when a fight's looking to break out, you reverse gravity or put a wall of stone between the two of you and leave. I gotta reiterate, a level 20 druid is wise and doesn't get to level 20 by doing idiot things like arguing in a bar with a level 20 fighter, the wise don't give in to pride.

couple things. 1) Nobody knows what level anyone is. That's a metagame construct. If you wanted to phrase it as: "Experienced adventurers became and remain experienced, in general, by not doing overtly stupid things." I think we can all agree. Where I can't agree is that this generalism, that isn't even universally applicable (there are plenty of adventurers who do stupid things and survive to do more difficult stupid things and survive, and so on), automatically confers some sixth sense that initiative is about to be rolled.
2) Maybe the Druid standing up to leave is what starts the fight itself: Someone spills a drink or makes a wrong comment. Everyone gets tense. The Druid stands up to leave and punches start flying (roll initiative). The other choices are themselves combat provoking (start casting reverse gravity or wall of stone? roll initiative, no surprise round is possible because everyone is expecting a fight. If nobody was expecting a fight, the Druid wouldn't have had cause to want to leave/cast a spell, it's true because it's necessarily true.)

The rules for passive perception are on p. 176. The surprise rules are on p. 189. Passive perception is compared with the Dex (stealth) check of whomever is trying to hide. It's not used to "find" somebody who isn't hidden. (And looking for an army, or anything else, is not a passive check of any kind.)

The idea that perception might be needed for anything not stealth related likely is a holdover from 3.5, where the Spot/Hide skills were usually misread to say that a Spot check might be needed to see someone not actively hiding; the actual rule was that Spot checks weren't needed unless someone was trying to hide, or would be difficult to see normally. I figure there will be a shaking out period where people have to adjust to remembering this is a new system and nothing from the previous versions is applicable.

In terms of being competitive - this is about one on one fights between characters, a rare occurrence. If we want to measure how useful the characters are, the fighter comes up absurdly short - the druid does less melee damage, but can take far more, which makes it something of a wash where taking and dealing hp damage is concerned. In terms of the rest of the game, the fighter can't come close to comparing to the druid's usefulness. The druid can scout, fly, heal, raise the dead, control the weather, talk to plants and animals, let the party breathe in or walk on water, let the party fly to their destination, magically track, shift planes and a dozen other things and I haven't even mentioned their in combat utility like wall of stone and sleet storm.

I think you're overstating the Druid ability and understating the Fighters. At lvl 20 with a 20 in wisdom, the Druid gets 4/8 cantrips and 25 of 102 spells. So, choices have to be made, the Druid isn't all things at all times the way you portray. And some of these capabilities are mutually exclusive, the Druid can't use true ressurrection AND foresight (for example). Either way, conflating potential spell options with real spell options isn't indicative of actual ability. The ultimate utility of the Druid is highly dependent on being lucky enough to pick the right spells for the problems encountered that day.

In terms of skill proficiencies Druids and Fighters get to pick the exact same number, although Fighters actually have more options. The Druid doesn't have the option to get Athletics, Acrobatics, History, or Intimidation; the Fighter doesn't get Arcana, Medicine, or Nature. The rest are shared options. The Druid lacks any choice for 'face' proficiencies and frankly nature and arcana are borderline worthless.

I'm not going to admit to any ambiguity because there isn't any. Your class features give you the ability to change into a beast, you explicitly keep those features even when you change into a beast. Therefore you can use it again while you're already transformed. It SAYS you keep your class features, which include the ability to wildshape. So why on earth would you not be able to?

I don't think anyone is arguing the Wild Shape ability isn't retained.* What is being argued is that the Wild Shape ability functions distinctly differently for a Druid in normal form vs a Druid in beast shape.

*I then of course read Giant2005 doing just that. Ok, I don't agree with Giant2005 that Wild Shape isn't an ability while in Wild Shape; but it no longer functions the same because its functioning is entirely dependent on the user being in normal form or not.

Why on earth should you be able to? The only thing Wild Shape explicitly says you can do while in beast form is expend a use to extend the transformation. Everything else just assumes that you're "physically capable" of using Wild Shape while in beast form, a contention I think reasonable DMs are totally at liberty to disagree about.

The way I see it, there are three possibilities:

1) My interpretation is correct. Archdruid, while very powerful, requires every action you can take the turn you revert and transform again if you're a Moon Druid and is impossible to use to refresh HP as a Land Druid.

2) Your interpretation is correct, but it's entirely unintentional. It's a bug, and it will be duly errata'd next year.

3) Your interpretation is correct and intentional. Numerous people, both at WotC and their playtesters and consultants, looked at Archdruid, thought about it, and decided, "hey, it's a great idea to include an ability that gives 100+ HP every turn as a bonus action."

1) Combat Wild Shape changes Wild Shape so it is used "on your turn as a bonus action, rather than as an action." So under no circumstances can a Moon Druid drop wild shape (bonus action required) and then restore it on the same turn. Unless of course there's a means for getting a second bonus action (action surge is another action, so that doesn't count).

2) Agreed with your read on this. I don't think his interpretation is correct, however there will still probably be clarification assuming the editors get wind of this as a common question. (If they think it's clear, they won't know to do errata either way, so on this basis alone it would be worth everyone putting this forward to them for an answer).

3) I don't see a way this could possibly be the case. Do even the people arguing that this is the way the ability is written to work think that this is a 'good idea'? I find it doubtful, but I would be interested to hear why (if anyone does).

It does not say you do so unconditionally, and comes with a modifier (if the form could do so). Can a bard/druid inspire someone while shifted? That'll depend on the table. Same with htis. There is a caveat.

Almost certainly not (for the Dard (Bruid?) inspiration question). It requires stirring words or music, that's outside the scope of what a Beast can do, physically.

Forbidding beast-to-beast transformation may work as a nerf for Archdruid, but from a fluff perspective it makes druids lamer for the 19 levels preceding it. A bear turning into a fish is cool. If you want to nerf Archdruid, nerf the capstone directly.

A medium creature grappling a Huge dragon by grabbing its nostrils and making it prone by pulling its head to the ground would be cool too...but being cool doesn't automatically make it rules legal. (Grappler feat lets you grapple a huge sized creature, but nothing I can find allows the shove action technically doesn't allow anyone to knock someone two sizes larger prone; imo this falls under improvised actions, but again, not a standard rules option no matter how cool).

MaxWilson

2014-11-19, 05:33 PM

couple things. 1) Nobody knows what level anyone is. That's a metagame construct.

Battlemasters do actually. (Sometimes.) Don't underrate this ability, it's pretty cool.

3) I don't see a way this could possibly be the case. Do even the people arguing that this is the way the ability is written to work think that this is a 'good idea'? I find it doubtful, but I would be interested to hear why (if anyone does).

Sure. It's a 20th level capstone; generally the problem with capstones is that they're lame, which encourages multi-classing, but in the druid's case Archdruid makes a pretty good inducement to play straight druid all the way to 20. It still won't help you make saving throws, but as far as resisting HP damage, it's awesome. (It's even more awesome for non-combat utility and just pure fun.) And capstone abilities need to be awesome to function correctly as inducements. Just look at the ranger for an example of what happens when the capstone in insufficiently awesome. Wizards are similar: if Signature Spell (20th level) were even close to the utility of Spell Mastery (18th level) you'd see fewer Fighter 1/Wizard 19s.

Vogonjeltz

2014-11-19, 06:40 PM

Battlemasters do actually. (Sometimes.) Don't underrate this ability, it's pretty cool.

Touché. That is still a relativity measure. In game (from the character perspective, not the players) this is just a measurement of how experienced they are, and how skilled. Ie is this guy more or less experienced than me? (Class levels) Do they have more or less training than me? (Fighter levels)

Sure. It's a 20th level capstone; generally the problem with capstones is that they're lame, which encourages multi-classing, but in the druid's case Archdruid makes a pretty good inducement to play straight druid all the way to 20. It still won't help you make saving throws, but as far as resisting HP damage, it's awesome. (It's even more awesome for non-combat utility and just pure fun.) And capstone abilities need to be awesome to function correctly as inducements. Just look at the ranger for an example of what happens when the capstone in insufficiently awesome. Wizards are similar: if Signature Spell (20th level) were even close to the utility of Spell Mastery (18th level) you'd see fewer Fighter 1/Wizard 19s.

The capstone is unlimited uses of wild shape, I was asking about the claim that wild shape can happen to heal the character in wild shape.

MaxWilson

2014-11-19, 08:57 PM

The capstone is unlimited uses of wild shape, I was asking about the claim that wild shape can happen to heal the character in wild shape.

You were asking whether anyone thought unlimited wildshaping is a good idea (in a universe where wildshaping can be used while wildshaped), and I said, "Yes, because it's awesome." I know I've used this example numerous times, but a bear turning into a fish when it jumps into a lake, and then into a duck to fly into the air, and then into an albatross to float on the wind for even longer, is awesome. That is absolutely a great thing to supply as a capstone, and it comes with a HP reset as a byproduct. (I suspect the 5E designers would rule that you have to change forms to get the HP reset, so it's not strictly-speaking a heal ability. That's just a guess at their thinking style though.)

Does the fact that it allows a druid to tank a practically-infinite number of orcs make it a bad idea? No, because it doesn't affect saves or other things that bypass HP. An Onion Druid who tries to stupidly tank an infinite number of ghouls in mammoth form will rapidly die. Besides, in practice the 5E designers probably expect a 20th level druid to be fighting something other than unending hordes of orcs: they expect you to be fighting dragons and Empyreans and liches and such. (I might be underestimating the designers here, because Bounded Accuracy was specifically invented so that high-level adventures could still incorporate orcs, but it really doesn't matter for purposes of this discussion as long as encounters are not composed purely of orc hordes but also include some liches and Empyreans.)

BTW, Onion Druid isn't the only great capstone or meta-capstone out there. A Warlock 2/Necromancer 18 can get unlimited Web spells to go with his skeletal minions and Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast. That can also kill a practically-unlimited number of orcs.

Vogonjeltz

2014-11-19, 09:17 PM

You were asking whether anyone thought unlimited wildshaping is a good idea (in a universe where wildshaping can be used while wildshaped), and I said, "Yes, because it's awesome." I know I've used this example numerous times, but a bear turning into a fish when it jumps into a lake, and then into a duck to fly into the air, and then into an albatross to float on the wind for even longer, is awesome. That is absolutely a great thing to supply as a capstone, and it comes with a HP reset as a byproduct. (I suspect the 5E designers would rule that you have to change forms to get the HP reset, so it's not strictly-speaking a heal ability. That's just a guess at their thinking style though.)

Does the fact that it allows a druid to tank a practically-infinite number of orcs make it a bad idea? No, because it doesn't affect saves or other things that bypass HP. An Onion Druid who tries to stupidly tank an infinite number of ghouls in mammoth form will rapidly die. Besides, in practice the 5E designers probably expect a 20th level druid to be fighting something other than unending hordes of orcs: they expect you to be fighting dragons and Empyreans and liches and such. (I might be underestimating the designers here, because Bounded Accuracy was specifically invented so that high-level adventures could still incorporate orcs, but it really doesn't matter for purposes of this discussion as long as encounters are not composed purely of orc hordes but also include some liches and Empyreans.)

BTW, Onion Druid isn't the only great capstone or meta-capstone out there. A Warlock 2/Necromancer 18 can get unlimited Web spells to go with his skeletal minions and Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast. That can also kill a practically-unlimited number of orcs.

Are you really trying to tell me I don't know what I was asking, but you do?

I was asking if anyone even thought it was a good idea to allow wild shape into wild shape.

MaxWilson

2014-11-19, 09:27 PM

Are you really trying to tell me I don't know what I was asking, but you do?

I was asking if anyone even thought it was a good idea to allow wild shape into wild shape.

All I can do is go back to the text you were responding to, which was Archaeo's three bullet points, of which number three was, '3) Your interpretation is correct and intentional. Numerous people, both at WotC and their playtesters and consultants, looked at Archdruid, thought about it, and decided, "hey, it's a great idea to include an ability that gives 100+ HP every turn as a bonus action."' You asked whether anyone thought this was a good idea, and said you'd like to hear from one of them, and I responded.

archaeo

2014-11-19, 09:33 PM

1) Combat Wild Shape changes Wild Shape so it is used "on your turn as a bonus action, rather than as an action." So under no circumstances can a Moon Druid drop wild shape (bonus action required) and then restore it on the same turn. Unless of course there's a means for getting a second bonus action (action surge is another action, so that doesn't count).

It reads "you gain the ability to use Wild Shape on your turn as a bonus action, rather than as an action." I read "gain" here as saying that, in addition to being able to use Wild Shape as an action, you may also use it as a bonus action. It does not say that Combat Wild Shape replaces the normal use of Wild Shape.

I think we can probably agree that this is at least a little ambiguous. If you make Combat Wild Shape replace the normal mechanics of Wild Shape, which may be what was intended, this whole argument gets a lot less silly.

GiantOctopodes

2014-11-19, 09:50 PM

Almost certainly not (for the Dard (Bruid?) inspiration question). It requires stirring words or music, that's outside the scope of what a Beast can do, physically.

You've obviously never played Donkey Konga.

Vogonjeltz

2014-11-19, 10:19 PM

You've obviously never played Donkey Konga.

Neither has anyone who is a D&D character, so...

Eslin

2014-11-19, 11:34 PM

couple things. 1) Nobody knows what level anyone is. That's a metagame construct. If you wanted to phrase it as: "Experienced adventurers became and remain experienced, in general, by not doing overtly stupid things." I think we can all agree. Where I can't agree is that this generalism, that isn't even universally applicable (there are plenty of adventurers who do stupid things and survive to do more difficult stupid things and survive, and so on), automatically confers some sixth sense that initiative is about to be rolled.
2) Maybe the Druid standing up to leave is what starts the fight itself: Someone spills a drink or makes a wrong comment. Everyone gets tense. The Druid stands up to leave and punches start flying (roll initiative). The other choices are themselves combat provoking (start casting reverse gravity or wall of stone? roll initiative, no surprise round is possible because everyone is expecting a fight. If nobody was expecting a fight, the Druid wouldn't have had cause to want to leave/cast a spell, it's true because it's necessarily true.)
1) I said no-one gets to 20 nor fights a level 20 fighter, not that those terms meant anything to the characters. A character doesn't have to use the words attack of opportunity to know to avoid provoking one.
2) Again, why is the druid stupid enough to get into this situation in the first place? The very cautious (since he's survived to 20), extremely wise guy who spends his time frolicking in forests or whatever is going to walk into an enclosed space with a powerful warrior he doesn't trust? Why would he go into a bar in the first place?

The idea that perception might be needed for anything not stealth related likely is a holdover from 3.5, where the Spot/Hide skills were usually misread to say that a Spot check might be needed to see someone not actively hiding; the actual rule was that Spot checks weren't needed unless someone was trying to hide, or would be difficult to see normally. I figure there will be a shaking out period where people have to adjust to remembering this is a new system and nothing from the previous versions is applicable.
This isn't a previous edition thing. This is a 'how would I determine who spots things the earliest? How would I figure out which character smells the faint smell of the corpse or hears the hum earliest?' thing. And the answer is, incredibly obviously, perception. There are reasons to be difficult to perceive someone apart from that person actively hiding, and in those cases you'd use perception.

I think you're overstating the Druid ability and understating the Fighters. At lvl 20 with a 20 in wisdom, the Druid gets 4/8 cantrips and 25 of 102 spells. So, choices have to be made, the Druid isn't all things at all times the way you portray. And some of these capabilities are mutually exclusive, the Druid can't use true ressurrection AND foresight (for example). Either way, conflating potential spell options with real spell options isn't indicative of actual ability. The ultimate utility of the Druid is highly dependent on being lucky enough to pick the right spells for the problems encountered that day.

In terms of skill proficiencies Druids and Fighters get to pick the exact same number, although Fighters actually have more options. The Druid doesn't have the option to get Athletics, Acrobatics, History, or Intimidation; the Fighter doesn't get Arcana, Medicine, or Nature. The rest are shared options. The Druid lacks any choice for 'face' proficiencies and frankly nature and arcana are borderline worthless.
Nature and arcana are both very very useful, they've let my players know the weaknesses of creatures they're facing dozens of times. And if you need face skills, get them from your background. And a druid doesn't need to use foresight and true resurrection - he foresights himself and then if he comes across a situation where trueres is needed, he does it a different day - its not like the corpse can't wait. And the druid doesn't need to be lucky - you act smart, pick things that are suitable for the day's likely activities, but at the end of the day even if you don't spells like conjure woodlands beings/animals, contagion, cure wounds, wall of fire, sleet storm, greater restoration, confusion, faerie fire and scrying will get you through the day. That was 9 spells, the druid now has room to prepare a bunch of spells that may come in useful today.

I don't think anyone is arguing the Wild Shape ability isn't retained.* What is being argued is that the Wild Shape ability functions distinctly differently for a Druid in normal form vs a Druid in beast shape.

1) Combat Wild Shape changes Wild Shape so it is used "on your turn as a bonus action, rather than as an action." So under no circumstances can a Moon Druid drop wild shape (bonus action required) and then restore it on the same turn. Unless of course there's a means for getting a second bonus action (action surge is another action, so that doesn't count).

2) Agreed with your read on this. I don't think his interpretation is correct, however there will still probably be clarification assuming the editors get wind of this as a common question. (If they think it's clear, they won't know to do errata either way, so on this basis alone it would be worth everyone putting this forward to them for an answer).

3) I don't see a way this could possibly be the case. Do even the people arguing that this is the way the ability is written to work think that this is a 'good idea'? I find it doubtful, but I would be interested to hear why (if anyone does).
1) The druid doesn't need to, she just uses a bonus action to wild shape while she's wild shaped. There's nothing in the rules to suggest that this doesn't work.

2) Can't really say anything on whether they'll errata.

3) I'm fairly sure they looked at it and decided it was fine - it's only a pool of ablative hp for you, and while wild shaped your damage isn't that amazing. It's not like immense damage or control as a capstone that could end encounters by itself - the enemy can still incapacitate you without hp damage or focus on the rest of the party.

Almost certainly not (for the Dard (Bruid?) inspiration question). It requires stirring words or music, that's outside the scope of what a Beast can do, physically.
Birdsong!

GiantOctopodes

2014-11-20, 12:04 AM

3) I'm fairly sure they looked at it and decided it was fine - it's only a pool of ablative hp for you, and while wild shaped your damage isn't that amazing. It's not like immense damage or control as a capstone that could end encounters by itself - the enemy can still incapacitate you without hp damage or focus on the rest of the party.

The trouble is not a pool of ablative HP. The trouble is the size of that pool. In order for something to pose a reasonable threat to a Druid through HP damage, it must be able to then 1 turn the entirety of that ablative pool, and then some. However, anything that can deal 180 damage per turn could instead just 1 shot every other party member, one at a time. It's the same trouble you run into in 3.5 with enemies that aren't automatically hit by the fighter or barb (attempting to limit power attack abuses)- they end up being impossible to hit by anyone else. Some of the main and obvious design goals of 5e are the following:
1) Allow everyone to contribute
2) Smooth the impact caused by level differences, so someone level 5 vs level 9 isn't absolutely worthless
3) make it easier for DMs to design, run, and balance encounters

Now, sure, the old tricks (get a frigging giant in there to bash away at the druid while the rest of the party handles the mooks) work, and there are other ways to deal with him (eliminate him altogether through SOD effects), but those always cheat someone or another (in the case of having the Druid square off against the big bad, everyone else is like 'sure, I took down a troll, but he solo'd a frigging giant. He could easily have done my job, I'd have been clobbered trying to do his'; meanwhile, eliminating him from the fight through a SOD effect is anticlimactic and tactially uninteresting. 'Oh, you didn't roll well enough on this one roll? Too bad, may as well sit on the couch and watch some football, this fight is effectively over for you'). This is exacerbated by Druids, since they only have one 'real' pool of HP to worry about, since Int is nigh well useless in this edition for anyone not a Wizard, since Dex and Str get replaced, that leaves Druids with the following stat priorities, pretty much every time: Wis, Con, Cha, everything else. Since Wis and Con are the only Save or Die saving throws, that means that the Save or Die tactics you recommend against them are less likely to work against them than virtually anyone else, as well.

Beyond that, in terms of the impact caused by level differences, if you look at the power difference of a level 19 druid vs a level 20 druid, it's absolutely staggering. It infinitely increases their effective hitpoints (though not their EHP/turn), and makes a mockery of any other power differences by level that may exist.

So, if a single ability outpaces all other abilities in the game in its impact on combat, makes it tremendously much harder to effectively balance encounters (especially if you want to preserve everyone being able to have a chance at the spotlight), and totally changes the entire party dynamic once an entirely arbitrary XP total is reached, no, I don't think they'll say it's fine as is.

The only thing that might save it is that no one actually hits level 20. For all people's arguing about the theory of it, how many people are currently actively playing in a campaign that features a level 20 druid? If people just complain about it in theory, and less than 1% of all groups ever encounter the issue because campaigns just don't go that long, I can't imagine it as a high priority for them to clarify or resolve.

EugeneVoid

2014-11-20, 12:12 AM

...However, anything that can deal 180 damage per turn could instead just 1 shot every other party member, one at a time. It's the same trouble you run into in 3.5...

...Beyond that, in terms of the impact caused by level differences, if you look at the power difference of a level 19 druid vs a level 20 druid, it's absolutely staggering. It infinitely increases their effective hitpoints (though not their EHP/turn), and makes a mockery of any other power differences by level that may exist.

So, if a single ability outpaces all other abilities in the game in its impact on combat, makes it tremendously much harder to effectively balance encounters (especially if you want to preserve everyone being able to have a chance at the spotlight), and totally changes the entire party dynamic once an entirely arbitrary XP total is reached, no, I don't think they'll say it's fine as is.

The only thing that might save it is that no one actually hits level 20. For all people's arguing about the theory of it, how many people are currently actively playing in a campaign that features a level 20 druid? If people just complain about it in theory, and less than 1% of all groups ever encounter the issue because campaigns just don't go that long, I can't imagine it as a high priority for them to clarify or resolve.

This is mostly good stuff, so I'll quote the parts I especially liked.

Eslin

2014-11-20, 12:18 AM

The trouble is not a pool of ablative HP. The trouble is the size of that pool. In order for something to pose a reasonable threat to a Druid through HP damage, it must be able to then 1 turn the entirety of that ablative pool, and then some. However, anything that can deal 180 damage per turn could instead just 1 shot every other party member, one at a time. It's the same trouble you run into in 3.5 with enemies that aren't automatically hit by the fighter or barb (attempting to limit power attack abuses)- they end up being impossible to hit by anyone else. Some of the main and obvious design goals of 5e are the following:
1) Allow everyone to contribute
2) Smooth the impact caused by level differences, so someone level 5 vs level 9 isn't absolutely worthless
3) make it easier for DMs to design, run, and balance encounters

Now, sure, the old tricks (get a frigging giant in there to bash away at the druid while the rest of the party handles the mooks) work, and there are other ways to deal with him (eliminate him altogether through SOD effects), but those always cheat someone or another (in the case of having the Druid square off against the big bad, everyone else is like 'sure, I took down a troll, but he solo'd a frigging giant. He could easily have done my job, I'd have been clobbered trying to do his'; meanwhile, eliminating him from the fight through a SOD effect is anticlimactic and tactially uninteresting. 'Oh, you didn't roll well enough on this one roll? Too bad, may as well sit on the couch and watch some football, this fight is effectively over for you'). This is exacerbated by Druids, since they only have one 'real' pool of HP to worry about, since Int is nigh well useless in this edition for anyone not a Wizard, since Dex and Str get replaced, that leaves Druids with the following stat priorities, pretty much every time: Wis, Con, Cha, everything else. Since Wis and Con are the only Save or Die saving throws, that means that the Save or Die tactics you recommend against them are less likely to work against them than virtually anyone else, as well.

Beyond that, in terms of the impact caused by level differences, if you look at the power difference of a level 19 druid vs a level 20 druid, it's absolutely staggering. It infinitely increases their effective hitpoints (though not their EHP/turn), and makes a mockery of any other power differences by level that may exist.

So, if a single ability outpaces all other abilities in the game in its impact on combat, makes it tremendously much harder to effectively balance encounters (especially if you want to preserve everyone being able to have a chance at the spotlight), and totally changes the entire party dynamic once an entirely arbitrary XP total is reached, no, I don't think they'll say it's fine as is.

The only thing that might save it is that no one actually hits level 20. For all people's arguing about the theory of it, how many people are currently actively playing in a campaign that features a level 20 druid? If people just complain about it in theory, and less than 1% of all groups ever encounter the issue because campaigns just don't go that long, I can't imagine it as a high priority for them to clarify or resolve.

You are actually mostly correct, but there are a couple of details I disagree with, mostly because of what level 20 play looks like. The druid is a foresighted ball of infinitely replenishing hp, which could outshine the rest of the party except that the rest of the party got true polymorphed into pit fiends or celestials or ancient dragons days ago. The druid's job is basically to take hits and provide utility for the party.

Gwendol

2014-11-20, 10:17 AM

1) The druid doesn't need to, she just uses a bonus action to wild shape while she's wild shaped. There's nothing in the rules to suggest that this doesn't work.

Ah, wildshape while in wildshape! That does not seem to be supported by the current rules. While in Wildshape you can extend the beast form, or revert to normal form using a bonus action. That's it.

Please explain what rules support your claim. Unless your new form is physically capable of Wildshaping that class feature is out of reach (other than the actions listed above). And yes, I believe strongly this is exactly what is intended.

pwykersotz

2014-11-20, 12:44 PM

Eslin, your claim of the omni-prepared Druid is a little ridiculous in an RPG where he is a player. However, I'm sure there's a paranoid NPC or two who might do something like this. The Druid you describe would seldom interact with the campaign world at all. Also, if you wouldn't mind, a breakdown of the spell list you use by default would be nice, so the argument cant change to fit anyone's whim.

But I have a question. Have we forgotten that reverting does not restore status? Why does the fighter not simply knock out the Druid when he gets the form to 0hp instead of going for a killing blow? It's true we don't have rules for coup de grâce yet, but attacks on an unconscious character are auto-crits...with advantage to hit. A fighter can one-round anything in that state.

Edit: I just started on the other thread Eslin started where there are more details about this omni-druid. That should be sufficient.

Giant2005

2014-11-20, 12:57 PM

But I have a question. Have we forgotten that reverting does not restore status? Why does the fighter not simply knock out the Druid when he gets the form to 0hp instead of going for a killing blow? It's true we don't have rules for coup de grâce yet, but attacks on an unconscious character are auto-crits...with advantage to hit. A fighter can one-round anything in that state.

It doesn't work. Wild Shape says this: As long as the excess damage doesn’t reduce your normal form to 0 hit points, you aren’t knocked unconscious."

MaxWilson

2014-11-20, 01:02 PM

Eslin, your claim of the omni-prepared Druid is a little ridiculous in an RPG where he is a player. However, I'm sure there's a paranoid NPC or two who might do something like this.

Some players are very paranoid. Even moreso than NPCs.

But I have a question. Have we forgotten that reverting does not restore status? Why does the fighter not simply knock out the Druid when he gets the form to 0hp instead of going for a killing blow? It's true we don't have rules for coup de grâce yet, but attacks on an unconscious character are auto-crits...with advantage to hit. A fighter can one-round anything in that state.

This won't work on elementals--they are immune to the Unconscious status.

pwykersotz

2014-11-20, 02:05 PM

Some players are very paranoid. Even moreso than NPCs.

This won't work on elementals--they are immune to the Unconscious status.

Wow...that sounds like so much fun...

If they're only turning into Elementals, we could always pull out another rules amiguity. Banishment! Castable by Eldritch Knights, Elementals have poor charisma, and since you assume the totality of the statblock when you transform, it's up to a DM ruling whether the spell sends you to the harmless demiplane or perma-shifts you to your new native plane.

But now we've whittled it down to "20th level Moon Druids who shift exclusively into Elementals could possibly/probably win" which is a fair step up.

Perseus

2014-11-20, 02:16 PM

You are actually mostly correct, but there are a couple of details I disagree with, mostly because of what level 20 play looks like. The druid is a foresighted ball of infinitely replenishing hp, which could outshine the rest of the party except that the rest of the party got true polymorphed into pit fiends or celestials or ancient dragons days ago. The druid's job is basically to take hits and provide utility for the party.

Sooo this thread should be

Level 20 Pitfiend Martial Class versus Level 20 Moon Druid?

Vogonjeltz

2014-11-20, 05:29 PM

1) I said no-one gets to 20 nor fights a level 20 fighter, not that those terms meant anything to the characters. A character doesn't have to use the words attack of opportunity to know to avoid provoking one.
2) Again, why is the druid stupid enough to get into this situation in the first place? The very cautious (since he's survived to 20), extremely wise guy who spends his time frolicking in forests or whatever is going to walk into an enclosed space with a powerful warrior he doesn't trust? Why would he go into a bar in the first place?

The implication was that the Druid had some concept of what level the Fighter was. You say this was unintentional, fine I accept that, but if you're not expressly saying anything about the opponent, why does the Druid fear this situation? Your original reasoning was pointing to the threat posed by an equal level Fighter, so if you expressly remove that, the point you were trying to make no longer makes any sense.

2) The situation is the Druid goes to an inn and is eating a meal. He's stupid enough because he likes to eat food (a hot meal has alot going for it) and not die of starvation. Most adventurers would prefer NOT to live in the "Wretched", "Squalid", or "Poor" lifestyles. Instead they would opt for the "Modest", "Comfortable", "Wealthy", or "Aristocratic" options. That necessarily means going to places where other people are and doing things that are social. He's in an enclosed space, otherwise known as a common room of a tavern, inn, bar, or other establishment, with an warrior he doesn't know because that's how public spaces work. Why wouldn't he go to the bar? He has to keep the elements in balance, and there's too much fire in his belly and he needs some liquid courage to balance it out.

This isn't a previous edition thing. This is a 'how would I determine who spots things the earliest? How would I figure out which character smells the faint smell of the corpse or hears the hum earliest?' thing. And the answer is, incredibly obviously, perception. There are reasons to be difficult to perceive someone apart from that person actively hiding, and in those cases you'd use perception.

No, the answer is on page 189 under the section titled "Surprise"! If neither side is trying to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. No perception checks required. As I mentioned in the passage you quoted, the method you find incredibly obvious is what was done in 3.5; it's not what is done in 5th.

Nature and arcana are both very very useful, they've let my players know the weaknesses of creatures they're facing dozens of times. And if you need face skills, get them from your background. And a druid doesn't need to use foresight and true resurrection - he foresights himself and then if he comes across a situation where trueres is needed, he does it a different day - its not like the corpse can't wait. And the druid doesn't need to be lucky - you act smart, pick things that are suitable for the day's likely activities, but at the end of the day even if you don't spells like conjure woodlands beings/animals, contagion, cure wounds, wall of fire, sleet storm, greater restoration, confusion, faerie fire and scrying will get you through the day. That was 9 spells, the druid now has room to prepare a bunch of spells that may come in useful today.

A fascinating house rule on knowing weaknesses; interestingly this is another 3.5 skill check that doesn't exist in 5th.
5 backgrounds give face skills, and none of them are thematic to a Druid. (Charlatan, Criminal, Guild Artisan, Noble, Soldier). I suppose there's nothing stopping a Druid from having a jarringly discordant background that completely clashes with their class, but it seems as probable as the character having 18s in all stats at 1st level.

Corpse could get eaten, extremely expensive material component could get stolen or damaged (lowering its value). Time is always a potential issue.

1) The druid doesn't need to, she just uses a bonus action to wild shape while she's wild shaped. There's nothing in the rules to suggest that this doesn't work.

2) Can't really say anything on whether they'll errata.

3) I'm fairly sure they looked at it and decided it was fine - it's only a pool of ablative hp for you, and while wild shaped your damage isn't that amazing. It's not like immense damage or control as a capstone that could end encounters by itself - the enemy can still incapacitate you without hp damage or focus on the rest of the party.

As Gwendol mentioned, can't wild shape to gain a new form while wild-shaped, instead that extends the duration. That's a specific rule.
We can say anything we want. This topic is controversial enough, and game-altering enough, that it would be unwise not to address it firmly.
3) Huh, I can only say I disagree. We've already determined it's extremely difficult for any individual to burn through the hit points of a Wild Shaped Moon Druid just to touch their real hp, and it often requires several rounds or the expenditure of limited use abilities. If they could use wild shape from wild shape form to restore all hp, that would be game-breakingly pointless. It would also render the 2nd level class feature of being able to convert spell to hit points entirely pointless.

Why would anyone expend a spell, and their bonus action, to heal 1d8 to 9d8 hit points when they could use just their bonus action to heal the equivalent of 12d10 hit points? It doesn't make any logical sense at all.

Birdsong!

Is neither song nor music, it's chirping. It's also just warnings to other birds to get off their turf. This doesn't work.