An Alchemist For Kingmaker

[cecil1994]

Hey guys.

Recently, me and some other members of my Pathfinder group merged with a couple of other players to form a Kingmaker campaign. (For those of you who don't know what this is, you basically have to kill bandits/monsters/everything that disagrees with you and form a kingdom. This is a crappy description btw, it's actually an interesting story).

Now, I'm not new to Pathfinder. But I'm a little notorious for being an optimizer, and while every character I've rolled up recently has gotten progressively weaker, my GM put some restrictions down anyways. Here they are-

•only the core rulebook and the APG
•two traits, from only those two books +campaign ones
•1st level starting point, non-mythic (duh)
•roll 4d6 subtract lowest die for stats, drop ones

So... I feel rather limited.

Anyways I'm planning on making an Alchemist, focusing more on the explosives side of things than natural attacking. No archetypes, obviously (none for alchemist in the books mentioned).

Build tips? Other interesting suggestions for a different character?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Hmm. While that sucks your options are limited so, the base alchemist has a plethora of tools at his disposal to make a decent bomber. However, could you elaborate on the stat generation method? I am familiar with '4d6 drop the low', but what do you mean drop ones? Wouldn't that make for worse stats?

[cecil1994]

Hmm. While that sucks your options are limited so, the base alchemist has a plethora of tools at his disposal to make a decent bomber. However, could you elaborate on the stat generation method? I am familiar with '4d6 drop the low', but what do you mean drop ones? Wouldn't that make for worse stats?

Forgive me, drop was a bad choice of words.

I just got the GM's actual statement on this-

4d6 drop the lowest, reroll 1's once. Roll seven numbers and choose six as your stats.

Veeeeery generous. I'm scared.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

That's not too bad, just a lot of backups. Anyway, you should pick up at least one alternative bomb type; acid is very nice. There is an Alchemist guide somewhere on these forums, I would recommend looking at that.

[cecil1994]

That's not too bad, just a lot of backups. Anyway, you should pick up at least one alternative bomb type; acid is very nice. There is an Alchemist guide somewhere on these forums, I would recommend looking at that.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hChbcEsEfQsR7NkwKlzO-GLYtrOtxlkGHpRQgKKZ5gc/mobilebasic#kix.ig91ovna0v7a

I've actually been using this for reference, a very excellent guide to the alchemist. I'm only asking here because the information in the guide assumes you have access to all rulebooks.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

You can just cut out the stuff you don't have access to.

[cecil1994]

You can just cut out the stuff you don't have access to.

Yeah. But here, I get the nice combination of player experience, Kingmaker advice, and not having to sort through it manually ;)

[Incorrect]

I played an alchemist for the first couple of levels of Kingmaker, but I had made it too optimized and switched.
In Kingmaker you will usually have at least a few rounds to prepare before fighting. You will also for the most part only have one fight each day. This makes a buffer class, like the alchemist, very powerful.

For advise,
- Consider sharing buffs with the party, especially if you plan on blasting and don't need many yourself.
- With a full formula book, you can buff yourself to be anything you want, and change your play style each day; this might be an interesting character concept.
- You will have a lot of downtime, which makes crafting viable. I would suggest craft wonderous.
- Make a rough plan for your discoveries and feats, some of the cool ones have a lot of requirements.
- Do cool stuff.

Honestly you don't need advise for an alchemist in kingmaker :smallwink:

[ghanjrho]

Do check with your DM about taking crafting feats. The RAW is... unclear as to whether Alchemists have a caster level for the purpose of feats. Now, Master Craftsman isn't the worst choice, especially if you key it off your Craft(alchemy). This also assumes that your DM is lenient on what alchemy can create, but there's a fair few elixirs and whatnot in the Wondrous Items category.

[Edenbeast]

I suggest you have a look at Ogre's Alchemists Guide: http://pathfinder.ogrehut.com/2010/07/alchemist-build-guide/

It was the first alchemist guide and mainly contains core and APG and a bit of UM added later.

[grarrrg]

Do check with your DM about taking crafting feats. The RAW is... unclear as to whether Alchemists have a caster level for the purpose of feats.

It's somewhat clear that they aren't "actually" casters, what with the repeated reminders that an Alchemist "uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level." It even mentions that Extracts "cast" spells, quotes and all.
Nowhere does it say they actually _have_ a caster level.

But they're so close to being 'actual' casters that there's a FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9qdk).

It never hurts to ask your DM though. There's a good chance they'll let it slide.

[Incorrect]

To clarify on my suggestion on craft wondrous.
I did indeed mean to use Master Craftsman and create items via alchemy. Of cause you should check with your gm, but I would argue that amulets could be created by hardening alchemy. And that mundane boots infused with magical alchemy, is magical boots.

[cecil1994]

I played an alchemist for the first couple of levels of Kingmaker, but I had made it too optimized and switched.
In Kingmaker you will usually have at least a few rounds to prepare before fighting. You will also for the most part only have one fight each day. This makes a buffer class, like the alchemist, very powerful.

For advise,
- Consider sharing buffs with the party, especially if you plan on blasting and don't need many yourself.
- With a full formula book, you can buff yourself to be anything you want, and change your play style each day; this might be an interesting character concept.
- You will have a lot of downtime, which makes crafting viable. I would suggest craft wonderous.
- Make a rough plan for your discoveries and feats, some of the cool ones have a lot of requirements.
- Do cool stuff.

Honestly you don't need advise for an alchemist in kingmaker :smallwink:

Now this is good advice. Craft Wondorous Item can be qualified for with a spell-like ability by the way, so if I grab one somehow that will work. And with the possibility of buffing time, even at 1st level I can drink a Dexterity Mutagen and a True Strike or Reduce Person.

Also, thanks for showing me Ogre's guide! I'll take a look.

[Spore]

Your main problem will be the limited amount of bombs/day. And you can't go for "Extra Bombs" every feat since you also need other feats to make your combat style work. I'd honestly use the bombs for tactical advantage and go for what Jolly calls "Generalist". Your possibly huge attributes support bombing, then entering melee as flanking buddy.

Set up the rogue for sneaks, give the fighter needed buffs, bomb that pesky flyer to smithereens, let those filthy minions taste your blade.


Other interesting suggestions for a different character?

Really depends on your group. I feel like an Alchemist comes together in a group between T5 and T3. If any "real casters" are around, you just feel like a poor substitute/poor man's wizard imho.

I personally feel Kingmaker sounds like a great module for more classical roles like rogues, clerics, paladins, fighter and the lot.

[cecil1994]

Your main problem will be the limited amount of bombs/day. And you can't go for "Extra Bombs" every feat since you also need other feats to make your combat style work. I'd honestly use the bombs for tactical advantage and go for what Jolly calls "Generalist". Your possibly huge attributes support bombing, then entering melee as flanking buddy.

Set up the rogue for sneaks, give the fighter needed buffs, bomb that pesky flyer to smithereens, let those filthy minions taste your blade.



Really depends on your group. I feel like an Alchemist comes together in a group between T5 and T3. If any "real casters" are around, you just feel like a poor substitute/poor man's wizard imho.

I personally feel Kingmaker sounds like a great module for more classical roles like rogues, clerics, paladins, fighter and the lot.

With regards towards my combat style, my most recent idea is to be human, take Point Blank and Rapid Shot, and toss out 2 vials of acid per round- at first level they do exactly the same damage as bombs. The bombs are more of a secondary weapon in this build.

And our group is a bit heavy on melee threats anyways- we've got a Cavalier, a Weapons Master Fighter, a Drunken Master Monk, a Court Bard, a Sorceror of some sort and me. I know for a fact the sorcerer won't be too strong, and I don't think I should fear rivaling the bard in spellcasting potential.

And on the role of the alchemist in Kingmaker- I intend to be the "Spymaster" character- good at intrigue, tactics, and subtlety. And for the rooting out of bandits? Let incendiary bombs eliminate any defenses they have. And acid can kill those that survive.

[Incorrect]

Fortunately for the daily limit on bombs, kingmaker only have one fight per day, usually (!) . But, granted, at level 8 with rapid shot and fast bombs, you will run out fast.
Using acid flasks is fine for the first couple of levels, and the Hybridization Funnel extends that a bit. Burning Acid, muhahaha! But this tactic will not last, and you might want to focus on bombs later on.
Maybe some of the debuffing bomb discoveries? Consider the possibility of applying 3 debuffs to a group of enemies in one round (fast bombs).

The spymaster role could fit you fine, buff your way to success.
On that note, remember to leave some extracts unprepared and fill them when you know what you need.
I disguised myself as a demigod and got some followers very early on. Luck, deduction and a magical disguise made it all possible.

Some magical equipment to consider later on: (sources unknown, YMMV)
Journal of the Beast Within
Sipping jacket
Bountiful Bottle
Admixture Vial

You have a very large group, and Kingmaker is not exactly hardcore. Maybe suggest to your GM to search for a 6 player conversion, I heard rumors of a very good one.

[cecil1994]

One thing, guys- how can I get out the flasks of acid every round? To draw and drink an extract or a Muragen is a standard action, as goes for the Bombs as well. But it's a move action to draw my Alchemist's Fire. How can I bypass this so I can full attack with them?

[Spore]

Quick Draw as far as I know. You pull every weapon, including thrown weapons, as free action.

[cecil1994]

Quick Draw as far as I know. You pull every weapon, including thrown weapons, as free action.

"Quick Draw (Combat)
You can draw weapons faster than most.

Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.

A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).

Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat."

Two problems- prerequisite 1 BAB, and the fact that it explicitly does not work on alchemical items. Specific beats general.