3.5 Playing a Rakshascubus?

[Zakerst]

Long time reader first time poster, I know savage species is 3.0, but hear me out.

My group plays a lot of gestalt, for no real reason other than we seem to prefer the extra options and "power" without the need for real optimization work, I'd describe us as for the most part being on the low to moderate end of PO.

So what I'm asking is for your opinions comments and concerns about playing this particular gestalt SS Rakshasa//Succubus/Incubus

Also here's my interpretation of how it shakes down: for most of the lvls you're getting d8 HD 8+int skills a decent skill list and sorc casting, and ending up with some really high stats at the end and a handbag of socially useful SLAs spell immunity to 1st-8th lvl spells and spell resistance (I guess for 9th and 0th lvl spells?) some resistances and electricity immunity the ever dangerous vulnerability to blessed crossbow bolts and two empty class lvls at 12 and 14 to pair with Rakshasa.

For my money I'd wager its at high tier 2 but like I said, I'm interested in what you have to say on the concept (I imagine playing it as political assassin type but I'm open to just about anything, and I've got plenty of time to work on it, though the spell selection has me a bit baffled as to what would fit best except alibi which is always awesome)



Racial starting features: Outsider, +2 dex +2 con +8 cha, land speed 40 ft, darkvision 60 ft, poison immunity, +8 listen and spot, automatic languages Abyssal, Infernal, Celestial, Draconic, Common and Undercommon



Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Skills
Feats
Class Features


1st
Rakshasa 1// Succubus 1
+1
+2
+2
+2
Bluff 4, concentration 4, disguise 4, knowledge(something) 4, hide 4, move silently 4, sense motive, 4 spot 4, (+ whatever my int lets me take from: listen, search, craft and escape artist)
Improved init
alternate form (1), alternate form 1/day (1hr), vulnerable to blessed crossbow bolts, +1 natural armor, tongues, 2 claws 1d4 resistances (acid 5, cold 5, elec 5, fire 5) subtypes (chaotic, lawful, evil), simple and martial weapon proficiency


2nd
Raksasa 2// Succubus 2
+2
+3
+3
+3
As above but 5

Spells, bite 1d6, +4 int, lesser succubus powers 1/day, telepathy 100ft


3rd
Rakshasa 3// Succubus 3
+3
+3
+3
+3
As above but +6
(unknown)
+2 str, +2 cha, fly 50 ft (average), alternate form (3), detect thoughts 1/day, +3 natural armor


4th
Rakshasa 4// Succubus 4
+4
+4
+4
+4
Skills++

+2 con, Alternate form 3/day (2 hrs), spell immunity (1st), lesser succubus powers 3/day


5th
Rakshasa 5// Succubus 5
+5
+4
+4
+4
Skills++

+2 dex, +2 int, alternate form (any humanoid), +5 natural armor


6th
Rakshasa 6// Succubus 6
+6
+5
+5
+5
Skills++
(unknowner)
+2 cha, lesser succubus powers at will, Detect thoughts 3/day, spell immunity (2nd),


7th
Rakshasa 7// Succubus 7
+7
+5
+5
+5
Skills++

+2 con, +4 wis, energy drain 1/day, +7 natural armor, resistances (acid 10, cold 10, elec 10, fire 10)


8th
Rakshasa 8// Succubus 8
+8
+6
+6
+6
Skills++

+2 int, DR 10/magic, succubus powers 1/day, alternate form at will, spell immunity (3rd)


9th
Rakshasa 9// Succubus 9
+9
+6
+6
+6
Skills++
(something)
+4 cha, detect thoughts at will, spell resistance, +9 natural armor


10th
Rakshasa 10// Succubus 10
+10
+7
+7
+7
Skills++

+2 dex, +2 wis, succubus powers 1/day or 3/day, electricity immunity, spell immunity (4th)


11th
Rakshasa 11// Succubus 11
+11
+7
+7
+7
Skills++

+2 str, energy drain at will, spell immunity (5th)


12th
Rakshasa 12// Succubus 12
+11
+7
+7
+7
None this level

+2 con, +4 cha, succubus powers 1/day or at will, summon balor (10%), spell immunity (6th)


13th
Rakshasa 13// ??? 1
+12
+8
+8
+8
Skills++ (maybe new skills here)
Now you get one
+2 cha, spell immunity (7th), (stuff from ???)


14th
Rakshasa 14// ??? 2
+12 or +13
+8 or 9
+8 or 9
+8 or 9
+ whatever I get from ???

DR 15/magic, spell immunity (8th)


15th
XXX 1// ??? 3
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills

New Class Abilities


16th
XXX 2// ??? 4
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
YOU GET ONE
New Class Abilities


17th
XXX 3// ??? 5
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills

New Class Abilities


18th
XXX 4// ??? 6
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills

New Class Abilities


19th
XXX 5// ??? 7
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills
Last one
New Class Abilities


20th
XXX 6// ??? 8
+x
+x
+x
+x
Skills

New Class Abilities






0th Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Caltrops, Acid Splash, Sonic Snap, Stick

1st Alibi, Color Spray, Grease, Protection From Good? (Potions of painless death might be fun though), Silent Image, (mage armor and shield might be good?)
Honestly I'm at a bit of a loss for this level, though I think once I've got second level spells picked out that might help. I'm not quite sure how many levels of each I'm going to end up with without knowing the other classes so help would be greatly appreciated.



Mostly it seems I need help picking a Classes after the gestalt and spell selections, though any other help would be awesome too.

[Extra Anchovies]

How are you justifying the fluff of a character taking two monster classes? I'm not even sure that that's RAW-legal.

Regardless, if I were DM I'd allow it, cuz hey, sexy catgirl.

[Blackhawk748]

How are you justifying the fluff of a character taking two monster classes? I'm not even sure that that's RAW-legal.

Obviously its a Demonic experiment to create the ultimate magical Assassin.............. or a demon wanted a sexy catgirl, either or

[Arcanist]

The concept is devilishly cool (pun intended). By 14th level (presuming you go 14//14 for both species), you're casting as a 9th level Sorcerer. that is cool and all, but you have 6 levels left on your build.

I cannot recommend going into Incantatrix or something to get you up to atleast 5th level (maybe 6th level spells. Considering Abjurant Champion for one side since your inherent immunities already make you a fairly good shield and your racial traits give you all the other necessary prerequisites (This should get you up to 14th level casting and 7th level spells). This leaves you with one level to put into whatever you want (My vote is a dip in Mindbender because Telepathy, and therefore Mindsight, is great). For the other 6 levels in your build? Look into Fiend of Blasphemy/Corruption/Possession. I'd definitely consider Blasphemy since it can effectively allow you to give your party members some of your Spell-like abilities, but Possession can be used for some cleaver tricks and turn you into a better sneak (Alternate Form helps as well in this regard).

Good luck and watch out for Detect Evil. See if you can convince your DM to only give you one of the conflicting subtypes (preferable Lawful Evil because... Lawful Evil is better). :smalltongue:

[Zakerst]

Hay, thanks for the quick responses, and as for the fluff I hadn't quite been sure myself. If I had to guess it would probably consist of the progenitor(s) making conflicting pacts/deals and both the other parties trying to collect at the same time, though using some of the sillier uses of blood line curses from BoVD might work too/fit in nicely.

It seems RAW legal so long as you're taking both at 1st lvl and finishing them out, also Succubus/Incubus is only 12 levels leaving 2 more open on that side.

Another weird thing is that due to the progression listed on the table you only really lose one HD with this combination, what with Succubus/Incubus giving two back at the start to back and then every other and Rakshasa giving them straight every other level.

As a side note my group also allows for generic classes in our gestalt so we've had some silly things. For example, recently one of us decided they wanted to be the best human hater possible so took ranger and generic warrior (and maybe two levels of generic expert too) and dumped all the generic feats into favored enemy humanoid human and some other stuff

As for talking my DM into letting me drop the conflicting subtypes I'm not sure how far that'd get I think she likes the idea of a character that is conflicted on such a basic level not to mention all the weird pinging that'd go off with any detect spells. "It's evil, it's lawful, it's chaotic? it's a demon, it's a fiend?? it's a sexy cat thing???" :smallconfused:

[Blackhawk748]

As for talking my DM into letting me drop the conflicting subtypes I'm not sure how far that'd get I think she likes the idea of a character that is conflicted on such a basic level not to mention all the weird pinging that'd go off with any detect spells. "It's evil, it's lawful, it's chaotic? it's a demon, it's a fiend?? it's a sexy cat thing???" :smallconfused:

Hilariously, if you take a level in standard Paladin youd ping on detect good too. You would confuse the absolute crap out of anyone trying to figure out what you are.

[Crake]

Hilariously, if you take a level in standard Paladin youd ping on detect good too. You would confuse the absolute crap out of anyone trying to figure out what you are.

Or just get a ring of mind shielding and dont show up at all XD

That said, both the succubus and rakshasa actually got fairly significant changes from 3.0 to 3.5. The succubus namely losing quite a few of it's SLAs and it's DR going from +2 to cold iron or good, and the rakshasa losing it's immunity to all spells of 8th level or lower in exchange for obscenely high SR, and no longer dying from a single blessed crossbow bolt, instead gaining DR/piercing and holy. So if you wanted to play them in a 3.5 game, you'd need to re-work the savage progression to fix all of that.... unless you like the idea of dying from a single shot fired by a level 1 paladin with true strike?

[Arcanist]

As a side note my group also allows for generic classes in our gestalt so we've had some silly things. For example, recently one of us decided they wanted to be the best human hater possible so took ranger and generic warrior (and maybe two levels of generic expert too) and dumped all the generic feats into favored enemy humanoid human and some other stuff

You should have said that in the first place. To hell with playing your special snowflake character! Play a Red Mage! (Generic Spellcaster 20//Generic Expert 1 / Generic Warrior 19) Make your DM rue the day that he ever allowed you to play such an class!



Crush the world beneath your heel.



Destroy everyone who has ever slighted you.



Tear down creation just to see if you can.



As for talking my DM into letting me drop the conflicting subtypes I'm not sure how far that'd get I think she likes the idea of a character that is conflicted on such a basic level not to mention all the weird pinging that'd go off with any detect spells. "It's evil, it's lawful, it's chaotic? it's a demon, it's a fiend?? it's a sexy cat thing???" :smallconfused:

Because all of the Word spells kill you. Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictim/Word of Chaos? All of them REALLY hurt... Ask if you get the extraplanar subtype. That is much more preferable.


Hilariously, if you take a level in standard Paladin youd ping on detect good too. You would confuse the absolute crap out of anyone trying to figure out what you are.

This is a good reason to be all the alignment subtypes... Or just take Mask of Gentality and don't ping at all :smalltongue:


unless you like the idea of dying from a single shot fired by a level 1 paladin with true strike?

I believe in the OP's ability to cast Wind Wall against everything with a crossbow :smallbiggrin:

[Deox]

What level are you starting at? Something interesting: Rakshasas could auto qualify for Swiftblade (https://web.archive.org/web/20100327172812/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)

[Fable Wright]

Because all of the Word spells kill you. Blasphemy/Holy Word/Dictim/Word of Chaos? All of them REALLY hurt... Ask if you get the extraplanar subtype. That is much more preferable.

Actually, no. All of them ignore you; they hurt non-evil/good/lawful/chaotic beings. Because you're all of them at once, you're safe from each.

[Mitchellnotes]

To the OPs question, jade phoenix mage could be an interesting route to go. It would play to your strengths, let you advance your sorc casting, and be really flavorful. Im at work so cant plug it in, but the couple levels on the succubus side you could use to grab some crusader levels, then should be good to enter it. (Although i think you might need 1 actual sorc level, correct?) While picking up the JPM levels, you could also grab some duskblade for channeling and for more spellslots to burn. Also, with all the outsider HD, knowledge devotion could be a good use for some skill points.

One quick question, what kind of racial stat adjustments are you using?

[Snowbluff]

Obviously its a Demonic experiment to create the ultimate magical Assassin.............. or a demon wanted a sexy catgirl, either or

Well, I don't know baout you, but sounds like a good plan.

As for options, maybe some binder feats? Your BAB should be near full, so Power Attack may be good. Being a spellcaster just makes you good, so you can always focus on expanding those abilities.

[Sartharina]

I can't say anything about the build.... but I really, really wish I could draw a picture of it.

[Zakerst]

I wont be doing any reworking of the classes for a couple reasons: 1. I like the way they read as is, I know they aren't perfect and the vulnerability would certainly give me something to be paranoid about, 2. they classes are still RAW legal because they haven't been updated or reprinted elsewhere and 3. for whatever reason my group seems allergic to most anything resembling home brew to the point of not letting any custom magic items be made/bought by players and only getting them form the DM at the time.

I'll likely be starting around lvl 3 (we've found that to be our happy starting point).

The stat adjustments are right out of SS, with the exception to the normal gestalt rules, that if both classes increase an ability score you add the increases together rather than just picking the one that adds the higher increase, if I did my homework right my final adjustments (before levels and stat generation) at level 14 should be : +4 str, +6 dex, +8 con, +8 int, +6 wis, +20 cha, though these may be off as I was half asleep when inspiration struck and I did the preliminary run through.

And finally any art would be awesome, but I'm not artist myself and without a more solid concept of who he/she is I don't think I'd really have a good place to start outside of learning how to draw wrists and hands wrong again. :/

Also with the option to take first level cleric spells as known are there any you could suggest enough to bump out the normal contenders for sorc slots?

[Extra Anchovies]

And finally any art would be awesome, but I'm not artist myself and without a more solid concept of who he/she is I don't think I'd really have a good place to start outside of learning how to draw wrists and hands wrong again. :/

Here's something (questionably SFW; it's PG-13ish) from Google ("demon catgirl"):

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/goku200378114/PixieDemonCatGirl.jpg
And before you ask, no. I don't have anything legitimately helpful to contribute :smallbiggrin:

[atemu1234]

Is the name pronounced Rack - sass - cub - US?

[(Un)Inspired]

Wait, you want your character to be a rakshasa and a succubus... and an incubus? That's like the most sexually terrifying thing ever.

Why on earth does everyone keep calling this thing a sexy cat girl? It got backwards hands!

Backwards Hands!

[Kid Jake]

Wait, you want your character to be a rakshasa and a succubus... and an incubus? That's like the most sexy terrifying thing ever.

Why on earth does everyone keep calling this thign a sexy cat girl? It got backwards hands!

Backwards Hands!


Because obviously you never waste a perfectly good catgirl fantasy on hand stuff. That's like cheating on a diet and eating salad.

[Sartharina]

Wait, you want your character to be a rakshasa and a succubus... and an incubus? That's like the most sexually terrifying thing ever.

Why on earth does everyone keep calling this thing a sexy cat girl? It got backwards hands!

Backwards Hands!

Unless the succubus/incubus thing fixes the hands. Then you have something so sexy it can't be posted anywhere without breaking forum limits.

[WhamBamSam]

What level are you starting at? Something interesting: Rakshasas could auto qualify for Swiftblade (https://web.archive.org/web/20100327172812/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)You need a level of the actual Sorcerer class to actually progress spellcasting with PrCs. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spells).
A spellcasting creature is not actually a member of a class unless its entry says so, and it does not gain any class abilities. A creature with access to cleric spells must prepare them in the normal manner and receives domain spells if noted, but it does not receive domain granted powers unless it has at least one level in the cleric class.Emphasis mine. Since progressing spellcasting with a PrC requires that you belong to a spellcasting class, you can't just go straight from RHD to PrCs. Still, the first level of Sorcerer is good enough that whichever option you go with you'll get something decent out of it.

[Zakerst]

Wait, you want your character to be a rakshasa and a succubus... and an incubus? That's like the most sexually terrifying thing ever.

Why on earth does everyone keep calling this thing a sexy cat girl? It got backwards hands!

Backwards Hands!

Well the succubus/incubus is just how the class is listed so for precision and clarity that's how I listed it. On the other hand alter self as gained by the classes should be enough to change the hand and perhaps gender/sex not to mention liberal use various other uses/applications of disguise (skill and similar spells) it ought to be pretty hard to say what he/she actually is. As a note on this I hadn't actually settled on a gender/sex for the char natively.


Is the name pronounced Rack - sass - cub - US?

I'm not quite sure but I think its Rack-sass-Qu-Bus :smallconfused:


Stuff and relevant info

Well while it might not normally advance spell casting as they'd have no spell casting granting class this may be an odd case where the monster class grants spell casting so might be advanced at least arguably, though no I wouldn't be able to get into any classes that require levels of sorcerer or any other class for that matter free of charge. Likewise this particular example doesn't seem to require any spell casting class just that you "be able to cast haste" (not as an SLA I think is this requirement and access and knowledge of the spell) and that "Must have spent the entire previous level using all 3rd level spell slots to exclusively cast haste." (for any 3rd lvl spell slot used it must have been used for casting haste and only haste for the entire previous level)

Of course I'm not an absolute expert on RAW so I may be mistaken, part of why I'm here to ask and receive knowledge not better gain by passive reading. If I'm in the wrong please let me know after all I do want to play this char and not have it thrown out for being illegal.

[Urpriest]

That quote prevents you from gaining class features. It doesn't prevent you from progressing your spellcasting with a PrC, as evidenced by the many monsters printed throughout the years that went straight from their racial casting into PrCs.

[Zakerst]

Ok thanks Urpriest, I had hoped that was the implication but I'm never quite sure with DND.

On a slightly different note are there any 1st level cleric spell that would be worth taking over normal sorc/wizard spells since I can add those to my known spells?

[WhamBamSam]

Well while it might not normally advance spell casting as they'd have no spell casting granting class this may be an odd case where the monster class grants spell casting so might be advanced at least arguably, though no I wouldn't be able to get into any classes that require levels of sorcerer or any other class for that matter free of charge. Likewise this particular example doesn't seem to require any spell casting class just that you "be able to cast haste" (not as an SLA I think is this requirement and access and knowledge of the spell) and that "Must have spent the entire previous level using all 3rd level spell slots to exclusively cast haste." (for any 3rd lvl spell slot used it must have been used for casting haste and only haste for the entire previous level)

Of course I'm not an absolute expert on RAW so I may be mistaken, part of why I'm here to ask and receive knowledge not better gain by passive reading. If I'm in the wrong please let me know after all I do want to play this char and not have it thrown out for being illegal.The quote specifically pertains to spellcasting creatures. They aren't a special case that's exempt from the rule, they're the special case for which the rule applies.

You certainly can qualify for Swiftblade as an out of the box Rakshasa, but you cannot advance your racial casting that way unless you also have a level of Sorcerer.


That quote prevents you from gaining class features. It doesn't prevent you from progressing your spellcasting with a PrC, as evidenced by the many monsters printed throughout the years that went straight from their racial casting into PrCs.That's probably the RAI, but it's pretty clearly not the RAW. Casting PrCs refer to "a spellcasting class to which you belonged prior to taking the Prestige Class level" and the quote says that you are not a member of the class by virtue of racial casting alone. It's not a good rule or a rule that I like, but I can't see any good reason why it wouldn't be the case. How can you belong to a class which you are explicitly not a member of?

WotC prints characters that break the rules all the time. This is just another case of that.

[Zakerst]

stuff

The point I was making is that in this case I am getting casting from a class the Rakshasa class from Savage Species, not from playing a rakshasa with the normal racial hit die, so I think I would be gaining casting as though I had taken more levels in Rakshasa (which cast as though a sorc with levels equal to hits hit die gained by class levels with the addition of gaining first level cleric spells as possible spells known).

So yes while I might not gain additional spell casting if I were to get there by racial HD getting there by the class is slightly different and in this case I think maybe importantly so. As an aside I also wouldn't be able to also get the effects from being a succubus/incubus if I had advanced my HD to 12 from rakshasa, in this particular case I am gaining them from the gestalt combination of the two classes from the book Savage Species, rather than the monsters with level adjustments from the Monster Manual so I have a spell casting class for the PRC to refer back to which itself is templated off of sorc casting but not equal to it.

In conclusion Rakshasa (class) != rakshasa (monster/outsider HD) and Rakshasa casting != sorc casting (though any spell on sorc list will be on the Rakshasa list + first level cleric spells, and both cast off cha and learn and approx the same rate with respect to HD gained though class levels though Rakshasa only gains them at every other level.

So if I take a PRC that adds +1 casting of arcane spell casting class you belonged to that would refer to Rakshasa not (error no class found)[due to only having outsider HD]

[WhamBamSam]

The point I was making is that in this case I am getting casting from a class the Rakshasa class from Savage Species, not from playing a rakshasa with the normal racial hit die, so I think I would be gaining casting as though I had taken more levels in Rakshasa (which cast as though a sorc with levels equal to hits hit die gained by class levels with the addition of gaining first level cleric spells as possible spells known).

So yes while I might not gain additional spell casting if I were to get there by racial HD getting there by the class is slightly different and in this case I think maybe importantly so. As an aside I also wouldn't be able to also get the effects from being a succubus/incubus if I had advanced my HD to 12 from rakshasa, in this particular case I am gaining them from the gestalt combination of the two classes from the book Savage Species, rather than the monsters with level adjustments from the Monster Manual so I have a spell casting class for the PRC to refer back to which itself is templated off of sorc casting but not equal to it.

In conclusion Rakshasa (class) != rakshasa (monster/outsider HD) and Rakshasa casting != sorc casting (though any spell on sorc list will be on the Rakshasa list + first level cleric spells, and both cast off cha and learn and approx the same rate with respect to HD gained though class levels though Rakshasa only gains them at every other level.

So if I take a PRC that adds +1 casting of arcane spell casting class you belonged to that would refer to Rakshasa not (error no class found)[due to only having outsider HD]I don't buy any of that. Apart from anything else, there's no defined spellcasting beyond the levels in the Rakshasa 'class' that you already have.

I double don't buy the idea that the monster class is different from simply being the monster in any way other than gaining the benefits over the course of the full ECL rather than needing to start at the full ECL, but I guess that the whole premise of this thread relies on that interpretation, so whatever.

[Zakerst]

I don't buy any of that. Apart from anything else, there's no defined spellcasting beyond the levels in the Rakshasa 'class' that you already have.

I double don't buy the idea that the monster class is different from simply being the monster in any way other than gaining the benefits over the course of the full ECL rather than needing to start at the full ECL, but I guess that the whole premise of this thread relies on that interpretation, so whatever.

You may be right on the first point though if I were to try and parse out the way the PRC's work in this case it would be something like: PRC level gained -> does subject have a class that grants spell casting? -> (yes (Rakshasa)) -> increment (Rakshasa (spells)) -> Rakshasa spells (did I gain HD this level?)) -> yes -> increase spell casting as a sorcerer = HD, that said it might not work that way in which case I would need a level of sorcerer anyway too which stacks with Rakshasa.

Another major difference is that the Raksahasa class does not grant the same stuff as the monster race, the race for example does not have the vulnerability to blessed crossbow bolts nor the spell immunity and the monster race has no class levels where as a char with levels in the Rakshasa class most certainly does.

Finally the difference is that it is a class where as outsider HD are not though in many ways they act similarly and yes the case at hand does assume that you can take two monster classes at the same time assuming you fallow the rules for those as well as the normal rules for gestalt (starting at first level and finishing the class before taking any others) and finally that they are classes.

I'm not sure where the jump is made that you disagree with so if you could show it to me that might help.

(please note I'm not trying to be confrontational, however my philosophy background requires me to ask questions and pose my thoughts in the fashion I am if I'm out of line or what have you I'll try to tone it back so please let me know) [BTW congrats on all the medals, those were some fun reads]

[Urpriest]

That's probably the RAI, but it's pretty clearly not the RAW. Casting PrCs refer to "a spellcasting class to which you belonged prior to taking the Prestige Class level" and the quote says that you are not a member of the class by virtue of racial casting alone. It's not a good rule or a rule that I like, but I can't see any good reason why it wouldn't be the case. How can you belong to a class which you are explicitly not a member of?

WotC prints characters that break the rules all the time. This is just another case of that.

RAI and RAW are both poor guidelines for monsters, though. Ideally, you want to be able to use as many published monsters as possible, which is why I tend to advocate Rules as Maximally Consistent. It's just as objective as RAW, a lot easier to figure out than RAI, and serves a practical purpose in that it gives the DM more resources.

[TypoNinja]

You may be right on the first point though if I were to try and parse out the way the PRC's work in this case it would be something like: PRC level gained -> does subject have a class that grants spell casting? -> (yes (Rakshasa)) -> increment (Rakshasa (spells)) -> Rakshasa spells (did I gain HD this level?)) -> yes -> increase spell casting as a sorcerer = HD, that said it might not work that way in which case I would need a level of sorcerer anyway too which stacks with Rakshasa.

Another major difference is that the Raksahasa class does not grant the same stuff as the monster race, the race for example does not have the vulnerability to blessed crossbow bolts nor the spell immunity and the monster race has no class levels where as a char with levels in the Rakshasa class most certainly does.

Finally the difference is that it is a class where as outsider HD are not though in many ways they act similarly and yes the case at hand does assume that you can take two monster classes at the same time assuming you fallow the rules for those as well as the normal rules for gestalt (starting at first level and finishing the class before taking any others) and finally that they are classes.

I'm not sure where the jump is made that you disagree with so if you could show it to me that might help.

(please note I'm not trying to be confrontational, however my philosophy background requires me to ask questions and pose my thoughts in the fashion I am if I'm out of line or what have you I'll try to tone it back so please let me know) [BTW congrats on all the medals, those were some fun reads]

I tend to lean towards "It counts" because of this.


Spells: A rakshasa character casts spells as a 7th-level sorcerer. If the character takes additional levels of sorcerer, these levels stack with the rakshasa’s base spellcasting ability for spells known, spells per day, and other effects dependent on caster level.


Spells

A rakshasa casts spells as a 7th-level sorcerer.

Monsters with this kind of language are implying to me a different functionality to me than something with just a pile of SLA's. Thematically this thing isnt just a magical monster, its a Sorcerer.

Combine with the Complete arcane spelling out how SLA's and/or caster levels work for PrC qualifications and its pretty clear, to me at last, how this should work. Its a Spellcaster not just a magical monster.

[WhamBamSam]

RAI and RAW are both poor guidelines for monsters, though. Ideally, you want to be able to use as many published monsters as possible, which is why I tend to advocate Rules as Maximally Consistent. It's just as objective as RAW, a lot easier to figure out than RAI, and serves a practical purpose in that it gives the DM more resources.Consistent with what exactly? Because WotC making frequent rules errors in their own sample characters would certainly be consistent with how they write non-monstrous characters. I guess I don't really see what's more consistent about that interpretation compared with what seems to be the clear-cut RAW.


You may be right on the first point though if I were to try and parse out the way the PRC's work in this case it would be something like: PRC level gained -> does subject have a class that grants spell casting? -> (yes (Rakshasa)) -> increment (Rakshasa (spells)) -> Rakshasa spells (did I gain HD this level?)) -> yes -> increase spell casting as a sorcerer = HD, that said it might not work that way in which case I would need a level of sorcerer anyway too which stacks with Rakshasa.

Another major difference is that the Raksahasa class does not grant the same stuff as the monster race, the race for example does not have the vulnerability to blessed crossbow bolts nor the spell immunity and the monster race has no class levels where as a char with levels in the Rakshasa class most certainly does.The monster class is identical to the 3.0 Rakshasa. Properly updating Savage Species to 3.5 would resolve the discrepancy. But reading over the exact nature of the Rakshasa monster class spellcasting, I can see where you're coming from. Still, you would be gaining something other than a Rakshasa HD, and it still comes off as sketchy that you would automatically get an HD level as opposed to a LA level when progressing with PrCs. I also still think it's potentially valid to say that since Rakshasas advance by character class, not HD, there is no Rakshasa spell progression beyond that point to progress. I guess you'll just have to ask your DM what they make of all this though.


Finally the difference is that it is a class where as outsider HD are not though in many ways they act similarly and yes the case at hand does assume that you can take two monster classes at the same time assuming you fallow the rules for those as well as the normal rules for gestalt (starting at first level and finishing the class before taking any others) and finally that they are classes.

I'm not sure where the jump is made that you disagree with so if you could show it to me that might help.

(please note I'm not trying to be confrontational, however my philosophy background requires me to ask questions and pose my thoughts in the fashion I am if I'm out of line or what have you I'll try to tone it back so please let me know) [BTW congrats on all the medals, those were some fun reads]My disagreement is with the notion that Savage Species monster classes are anything other than smoothing out monstrous races into progressions over the course of the creature's ECL. As I said though, that is to some extent the premise of the thread. From a false hypothesis everything follows and all that.

No worries. I'm not offended or angry or anything. And thank you, I'm glad you liked them.

EDIT:
I tend to lean towards "It counts" because of this.





Monsters with this kind of language are implying to me a different functionality to me than something with just a pile of SLA's. Thematically this thing isnt just a magical monster, its a Sorcerer.

Combine with the Complete arcane spelling out how SLA's and/or caster levels work for PrC qualifications and its pretty clear, to me at last, how this should work. Its a Spellcaster not just a magical monster.The text I quoted does not refer to creatures with lots of SLAs. It refers to creatures with spellcasting. Creatures which cast as Sorcerers or Druids or Clerics or whatever are exactly the thing it is talking about.

[Urpriest]

Consistent with what exactly? Because WotC making frequent rules errors in their own sample characters would certainly be consistent with how they write non-monstrous characters. I guess I don't really see what's more consistent about that interpretation compared with what seems to be the clear-cut RAW.

Those rules errors don't tend to be made in a consistent manner, though, and there really aren't any rules you can extrapolate from them.

The idea is to find a ruleset which allows you to use as much WotC-published content as possible unaltered, using as few and as minor houserules as possible. Basically, finding the interpretations that lead to the most consistency with published material. You can't get complete consistency because there are contradictory errors, but with monsters there are a good number of rules that are applied almost everywhere in practice even if they aren't detailed anywhere. "Two Slams Bad, One Slam Good" is an example of this sort of rule discovered by another forumite.

[Sith_Happens]

Here's something (questionably SFW; it's PG-13ish) from Google ("demon catgirl"):

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/goku200378114/PixieDemonCatGirl.jpg
And before you ask, no. I don't have anything legitimately helpful to contribute :smallbiggrin:

That is one of the most deformed torsos I've ever seen.:smalleek:

[Extra Anchovies]

That is one of the most deformed torsos I've ever seen.:smalleek:

I think it's supposed to be viewed half from the side and half from the front in one of those "boobs-and-butt" poses, but it's just... ick. Where are her organs?

[Dusk Eclipse]

She is a devil-catgirl, she does not need these fancy organs you are talking about :smalltongue:

[Sith_Happens]

I think it's supposed to be viewed half from the side and half from the front in one of those "boobs-and-butt" poses, but it's just... ick. Where are her organs?

I didn't think of that, I was more focused on "Rib cages do not work like that!"

On a related note, for good demon-catgirl pictures I suggest searching for "Hanekawa Black." While the character in question only has catgirl features, a number of images scattered about the search results make her look sufficiently demonic. Like this one:

https://hrvojemostarac.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/cthk4ke.jpg
Alternatively, the Dungeons & Dreamboats thread might be able to help you.

[TypoNinja]

I think it's supposed to be viewed half from the side and half from the front in one of those "boobs-and-butt" poses, but it's just... ick. Where are her organs?

Hammerspace, naturally. :D

[darksolitaire]

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r171/goku200378114/PixieDemonCatGirl.jpg
And before you ask, no. I don't have anything legitimately helpful to contribute :smallbiggrin:

Note that the high heels in this particular case are justified, as she can use her tail for balance. Also, since she has wings on her backside which add extra mass, there needs to be a counter weight to prevent any undue swinging.

[Sith_Happens]

Note that the high heels in this particular case are justified, as she can use her tail for balance. Also, since she has wings on her backside which add extra mass, there needs to be a counter weight to prevent any undue swinging.

Did... did you just provide a practical reason for winged humanoids to have large breasts?:smalleek: On behalf of approximately half the Internet, I thank you.

[Blackhawk748]

Did... did you just provide a practical reason for winged humanoids to have large breasts?:smalleek: On behalf of approximately half the Internet, I thank you.

Holy crap he did............. THANK YOU!!!

[atemu1234]

Holy crap he did............. THANK YOU!!!

I'd bump that up to about 55-60%, with a margin of error.

[Snowbluff]

Indubitably.

[Zakerst]

The monster class is identical to the 3.0 Rakshasa. Properly updating Savage Species to 3.5 would resolve the discrepancy. But reading over the exact nature of the Rakshasa monster class spellcasting, I can see where you're coming from. Still, you would be gaining something other than a Rakshasa HD, and it still comes off as sketchy that you would automatically get an HD level as opposed to a LA level when progressing with PrCs. I also still think it's potentially valid to say that since Rakshasas advance by character class, not HD, there is no Rakshasa spell progression beyond that point to progress. I guess you'll just have to ask your DM what they make of all this though.

My disagreement is with the notion that Savage Species monster classes are anything other than smoothing out monstrous races into progressions over the course of the creature's ECL. As I said though, that is to some extent the premise of the thread. From a false hypothesis everything follows and all that. [(Zakerst edit) I think you're referring to a principal in logic from which you can derive anything from a contradiction but perhaps not, as even a false hypothesis will not entail anything just things that it entails which may or may not be the case]

OK I see where you jump off so to speak, and I agree that advancing it straight might not net increased spell casting though I disagree in that is seem like the way it is worded the advanced spell casting would just extrapolate out of the modified sorc casting, but perhaps not, in which case yes a single level of sorc would be best. (possible case without means that it advances casting but I goes nowhere) With sorc casting explicitly stack with rakshasa casting, one level would be all you need and you'd increment the sorc casing everytime which in turn is identical to incrementing Rakshasa casting.

Likewise updating the class would resolve the end differences but I don't think it would change the fact that it would be a class which if I'm understanding you correctly is where our major disagreement comes from, and while I'm not sure this would be any more motivating but as a counter point (admittedly not the strongest) I would reference the dragon disciple PRC which turns you into a half dragon and is clearly a class and if it granted independent spell casting it would be possible to advance it through a PRC.

Though I'm not sure it would help looking at the Drider class's (SS) spell casting and seeing what you would rule might let me see a bit better if the line is as firm as it seems, if you would say that Drider's advancing into PRCs would gain spell casting then I see no reason Rakshasa would not. However if you believe that they need a level of a spell casting class as well then the same would hold true for the Rakshasa.

As a final conciliation, yes the whole thread does rest on the interpretation that the Monster classes are different from just advancing through HD. (for our group I have precedence to indicate that is the case, as we allowed a Trent to gestalt with Monk, and a Djinn, to gestalt with paladin)

Now on to this busyness of heals being practical for winged bipeds, yep looks correct (try it with a backpack on some time for reference), though without them you end up with it in a perpetual stalking crouch for balance. Given the possible cat like tendencies this also seems reasonable. Also it may help with the (ribs don't work that way to look at the image on a smaller screen as on my laptop it does look odd and out of place but on my phone where the image is smaller a line is visible that was not before showing the ribcage to be a solid object pivoting about the spine. My objection would be the normal ones of wings not being large enough and the musculature not being sufficient.

As my final bit of banter at the moment: it seems like the char is going to be very manipulative, and prone to keeping combat light or at range with magic, though in melee likely fierce and panicky, yet strangely over confident in his/her durability and deffences, and likely near omnimalevolent (as inherited tendencies from both races). Given the option I think his/her favorite form of target elimination would be isolation -> temptation -> energy drain, taking on the guise of someone the subject lusts after, and would tend to try and raise "cults of personality" around his/herself. He/she would likely make a good "person behind the throne," probably would not be content to stay there. Finally He/she would have in born fear(s) of more powerful beings (bred in by the brutal nature of LE outsiders in general to say nothing of the assassin culture of Rakshasas and the often abusive nature of CE demons) and of course a hatred and fear of crossbows everywhere.

Sorry about the wall of text :smallredface:

[WhamBamSam]

OK I see where you jump off so to speak, and I agree that advancing it straight might not net increased spell casting though I disagree in that is seem like the way it is worded the advanced spell casting would just extrapolate out of the modified sorc casting, but perhaps not, in which case yes a single level of sorc would be best. (possible case without means that it advances casting but I goes nowhere) With sorc casting explicitly stack with rakshasa casting, one level would be all you need and you'd increment the sorc casing everytime which in turn is identical to incrementing Rakshasa casting.

Likewise updating the class would resolve the end differences but I don't think it would change the fact that it would be a class which if I'm understanding you correctly is where our major disagreement comes from, and while I'm not sure this would be any more motivating but as a counter point (admittedly not the strongest) I would reference the dragon disciple PRC which turns you into a half dragon and is clearly a class and if it granted independent spell casting it would be possible to advance it through a PRC.I'm really not sure what the Dragon Disciple has to do with anything. It's clearly different from a Savage Species monster class. A monster class is just a way of saying "your race is X" and really has nothing to do with various classes that change your type. The RHD parts act sort of like class levels in some senses, but your spellcasting is racial, not "Rakshasa class casting" or whatever, and you do not belong to a spellcasting class.


Though I'm not sure it would help looking at the Drider class's (SS) spell casting and seeing what you would rule might let me see a bit better if the line is as firm as it seems, if you would say that Drider's advancing into PRCs would gain spell casting then I see no reason Rakshasa would not. However if you believe that they need a level of a spell casting class as well then the same would hold true for the Rakshasa. I would rule the same way for a Drider. The issue is that the creature is not a member of a spellcasting class until it takes a level of that class.


As a final conciliation, yes the whole thread does rest on the interpretation that the Monster classes are different from just advancing through HD. (for our group I have precedence to indicate that is the case, as we allowed a Trent to gestalt with Monk, and a Djinn, to gestalt with paladin)Allowing RHD/LA on one side of the gestalt is common, and gestalt doesn't really define how it works for monstrous characters, so that's down to the individual DM. A Djinn//Paladin is not the same as a Rakshasa//Succubus except under your interpretation.

[Zakerst]

I'm really not sure what the Dragon Disciple has to do with anything. It's clearly different from a Savage Species monster class. A monster class is just a way of saying "your race is X" and really has nothing to do with various classes that change your type. The RHD parts act sort of like class levels in some senses, but your spellcasting is racial, not "Rakshasa class casting" or whatever, and you do not belong to a spellcasting class.

I would rule the same way for a Drider. The issue is that the creature is not a member of a spellcasting class until it takes a level of that class.

Allowing RHD/LA on one side of the gestalt is common, and gestalt doesn't really define how it works for monstrous characters, so that's down to the individual DM. A Djinn//Paladin is not the same as a Rakshasa//Succubus except under your interpretation.

You are quite right SS doesn't do much for explaining how it would work with gestalt (if it even would, it is unlikely that the creators had really thought of the combination) and UA doesn't say anything on it either so it would come down to DM discretion, to give you some insight into my group dynamic and DM situation I'll provide more info below.

My group typically does not allow RHD and/or LA to count only on one side, making monster classes a lot more attractive, though depending on who in the group is DMing they will allow RHD to count as only half a side. ex my anthro giant squid had to eat his LA and RHD (with one DM) and with my anthro giant constrictor I was able to get 3 levels of classes in but still had to eat the LA. Likewise in the previous cases monster classes have been allowed to freely be gestalted with others, however no one has yet tried it with two monster races yet (the inspiration only stuck me the day before my first post). We are mostly cooperative and play to have fun more than be competitive though there is some of that, by in large I seem to have the most system mastery. We have only occasionally had problems with overshadowing and over powering, which have been able to be resolved OOC, and have kept IC problems IC. Two of use have a programing back ground and think of things in that fashion at times, and two of us have philosophy back grounds (incidentally DND is really useful in philosophy problems as a catalyst for intuition pumps) and 2.5~3 of us have medical backgrounds (depending on the depth and particular subject). we have some experience with 4th ed and a couple other role playing games though 3.5 is our favorite so far. We have on occasion mixed in some things piecemeal from D20 modern (mostly the guns explosives and a few skills and general equipment). We pretty freely use 3.0 material but not pathfinder or homebrew, even custom items and what have you tend to get a lot of discussion/prompt problems. (that's part of why I don't/wont bother trying to update the classes to match the current iteration of the monsters though I think the DR/+3 ect. will get changed to DR/magic due to a universal change of all instances of DR/+x being changed to DR/magic, on the positive side I'll get the spell immunity and some other goodies)

Now here is something I think might be more relevant (though you're right I'm not sure what I was thinking with the DD example), pg 152 of SS first paragraph "Each class..." (emphasis added) I'd put the rest but I don't think its OGL, that paragraph seems to support my thesis. If you still disagree after I can only sum up my argument in the form that the char in question has NO RHD and only HD gained through class levels. It seems that you are insisting that coming from a monster class they are RHD, in which case I would agree with your claim without suit upon this examination. So after this last bit of evidence if it fails to convince you, I doubt I'll come up with anything that will, so we'd likely be talking past each other to discuss it further. That said I'd still be happy to continue if you would like. (if you however agree that we would likely be talking past each other if you would be so kind as to grant my interpretation if only for the sake of thought experiment, I'd appreciate it especially as you seem to have a lot of insight into the game)

Strangely this though just occurred to me that if the Rakshasa//Succubus classes did both count as RHD and the Spell section of Rakshasa refers only to RHD then my spell casting level would be much higher than anticipated. I'm not inclined to think this myself but I would like to hear yours and perhaps others thoughts on the matter.:smallconfused:

In addition I'm still open to any suggestions and critiques, by anyone here. (in particular I at the moment need help with 1st level spell selection)

[Zakerst]

I updated the original post, to be a bit more clear and provide more info now that I have it.