Psychic Chirugergy: made of awesome?

[kamikasei]

Before I ask the question I want to make it clear that I do not intend to start a balance debate or anything like it. There are already two threads about psionics and its strength. I would just like to know two things.

1: Can you use Psychic Chirurgery to give another psionic character (capable of manifesting 9th-level powers) knowledge of Psychic Chirurgery itself?
2: Does this, in fact, mean that a group of 17th-level-or-above psions, from various disciplines, who were adventuring regularly enough to absorb the XP cost, and among whom one telepath knew Psychic Chirurgery, could eventually each be able to manifest every single psionic power available to a psion?

[marjan]

1. Well I would say that "any power you know" includes Psychic Chirurgery.
2. Yes, but they would need great amount of XP to spend.

[GryffonDurime]

That sounds like the basic idea of the power, yes.

But I'd say any group dedicated enough to impede leveling into the Epic echelon in favor of learning every power -ever- is deserving of their prize.

[kamikasei]

Awesomesauce. So, next question: just how crazily powerful, overall, is a 17th-level-psion who knows every power from all the disciplines?

I'm vaguely thinking that if these guys aren't utterly broken it would be neat to have them as a (probably never encountered) faction of NPCs, like the High Wizards of the Cheesy Order or something.

edit: Come to think of it, given that he'd have the same limit on points available and points-per-manifestation as any other psion 17, would such a character actually be significantly more broken than a wizard who's sunk a lot of cash into adding every spell available to his spellbook?

[The Glyphstone]

This is yet another reason why the Thought Bottle is made of 100% pure, unfiltered CHEESE - and that the designers were as high as a Tarrasque Nailed to the Sky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/nailedToTheSky.htm) when they created it.

[kamikasei]

This is yet another reason why the Thought Bottle is made of 100% pure, unfiltered CHEESE - and that the designers were as high as a Tarrasque Nailed to the Sky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/nailedToTheSky.htm) when they created it.

I'm sure I saw something recently that specifically stated a Thought Bottle could only restore your XP if you'd suffered level loss in the interim, not if you'd been crafting or casting to lose the XP. (Though, given the wording, you could perhaps store your XP in a thought bottle - lose XP to crafting or something similar - have a level drained - and use the bottle to get back all the XP lost, not just the level...)

[Douglas]

RAW a Thought Bottle can restore any XP loss. When you use it to restore experience, it sets your XP total to exactly what it was the last time you stored it, no matter how it might have changed since then. You have to pay 500 (non-retreivable) XP each time you set it, but that's a pittance compared to some of the planned XP expenditures you can use it to negate. It was intended as a safeguard against level loss from death, but as written it can restore any and all XP expenditures except the one used to set it in the first place.

[Jasdoif]

1: Can you use Psychic Chirurgery to give another psionic character (capable of manifesting 9th-level powers) knowledge of Psychic Chirurgery itself?
2: Does this, in fact, mean that a group of 17th-level-or-above psions, from various disciplines, who were adventuring regularly enough to absorb the XP cost, and among whom one telepath knew Psychic Chirurgery, could eventually each be able to manifest every single psionic power available to a psion?1. Yes, assuming you have 9000XP to spare, or agree to split and you both have 4,500XP to spare.
2. Yes. Keep in mind, however, that six psions (one of each discipline) learning all of the other disciplines' discipline powers through psychic chirurgery (and assuming the list of those powers hasn't been extended outside the SRD) comes to a total cost 2,140,000XP. That's a lot.

[brian c]

1. Yes, assuming you have 9000XP to spare, or agree to split and you both have 4,500XP to spare.
2. Yes. Keep in mind, however, that six psions (one of each discipline) learning all of the other disciplines' discipline powers through psychic chirurgery (and assuming the list of those powers hasn't been extended outside the SRD) comes to a total cost 2,140,000XP. That's a lot.

Well, as noted above, a Thought Bottle can fix that problem. I'd say this is pretty damn broken.

[Emperor Tippy]

1. As has been said, yes.
2. Yes. And its quite fun but it takes forever. And requires thought bottle abuse out the ass.

[kamikasei]

I'd say this is pretty damn broken.

Well, that was my follow-up question. It's extraordinarily cheesy, but is it really all that broken? Will a know-everything psion 17 be more broken than a more-spellbooks-than-I-know-what-to-do-with,-but-I've-a-ridiculous-Int-so-I-know-what-to-do-with-them-anyway wizard 20?

[Emperor Tippy]

Yes and no. The psion will always have the right tool for the job. He can never be unprepared again. But wizards (even ones who know every spell in the game) don't use 90% of there spells at those levels in the first place.

And spells are much, much better than powers. So it won't be more overpowered than a level 17 wizard (but that isn't saying much).

[kamikasei]

Yes and no. The psion will always have the right tool for the job. He can never be unprepared again. But wizards (even ones who know every spell in the game) don't use 90% of there spells at those levels in the first place.

And spells are much, much better than powers. So it won't be more overpowered than a level 17 wizard (but that isn't saying much).

That's what I was thinking - that, and that there are vastly fewer powers than spells anyway. Excellent, my plan for an NPC secret council of six immortal Elans who have total mastery of the mind is viable, then...

[Emperor Tippy]

Its quite fun. I've run them before. But remember to make some reason why the Elans don't run everything (perhaps they only came about 500 or so years back).

Those 6 adventured until they got to level 17 and had thought bottle goodness. Now they spend the next couple thousand years off working in libraries or some such. Each one has 20 points in a profession. So by taking 10 they get 15 GP per week of work. But Elans can work 4 hours longer than humans and don't need to eat. So lets assume after expenses they make 14 GP per week. There are 52 weeks in a year. Thats 728 GP per year in profit. Or 728,000 GP per millennium. Lets wait 10 thousand years. Each Elan has 7,280,000 GP. Now there are 6 of them. So they command 43,680,000 GP. With that kind of money you can do lots of cool things. And I didn't even account for interest or the like.

[Mewtarthio]

I hear alot about this "Thought Bottle." From what I infer, it allows you to instantly recover lost xp, but that seems blatantly overpowered. What does it do?

[Lemur]

Well, as noted above, a Thought Bottle can fix that problem. I'd say this is pretty damn broken.

You mean, the Thought Bottle, right? The power by itself is okay, I think.

Transferring powers among each other could have it's uses, but transferring Psychic Chirugery to another person already costs more than Wish or Reality Revision, let alone the transfer of subsequent powers. In most cases, you'd probably be better off taking Bend Reality, and just using that.

An evil telepath could squeeze some more out of it, but it'd still be hard. Essentially, he'd have to be able to dispell any effects like Mind Blank on another 17+ level psion, then successfully hit them with a Dominate before they could reset their protections. This would be awfully difficult, considering the will save of a high level psion, along with the high likelihood he can use Mind Blank.

From their though, it would just be a matter of giving your mindslave Psychic Chirgurery, and making him give you his best powers. Even at this point, he could only do so much, since his victim can only spend so much XP, assuming he has any to burn at all.

[Emperor Tippy]

You use a thought bottle at a cost of 500 XP. It stores your XP level at the time you use it inside of its self. Then later on when you activate it your XP level is reset to what ever is stored in the bottle.

For example: You have 10,500 XP when you use the bottle. You lose 500 XP. The bottle stores a figure of 10,000 XP. You go off and craft away 9,000 XP. You activate the bottle. Your XP is back up to 10,000. Repeat as desired.

[Mewtarthio]

You use a thought bottle at a cost of 500 XP. It stores your XP level at the time you use it inside of its self. Then later on when you activate it your XP level is reset to what ever is stored in the bottle.

For example: You have 10,500 XP when you use the bottle. You lose 500 XP. The bottle stores a figure of 10,000 XP. You go off and craft away 9,000 XP. You activate the bottle. Your XP is back up to 10,000. Repeat as desired.

...Seriously? It really effectively pays all but 500 xp of anything ever? And nobody said "This is blatantly overpowered"? I mean, I can understand a few "It looks fine at first glance, but if you really read it you can see it's horribly broken" tricks getting past a few imbeciles, but that's just ridiculous.

[kamikasei]

I hear alot about this "Thought Bottle." From what I infer, it allows you to instantly recover lost xp, but that seems blatantly overpowered. What does it do?

It's described here (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=1854222&postcount=7).

It's clearly intended to only let you recover a lost level, but because it says you get back your exact stored XP total, you could potentially use up XP on crafting or spells - get a level drained - get back the level, and the expended XP; and so on, and so forth.

As I've said before in the thread, though, I'm certain I happened to come across something just the other day specifically saying you couldn't do that.

[Mewtarthio]

It's described here (http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=1854222&postcount=7).

It's clearly intended to only let you recover a lost level, but because it says you get back your exact stored XP total, you could potentially use up XP on crafting or spells - get a level drained - get back the level, and the expended XP; and so on, and so forth.

As I've said before in the thread, though, I'm certain I happened to come across something just the other day specifically saying you couldn't do that.

Okay, then it's a little nicer, but still blatantly exploitable. Now all you have to do is Planar Bind a Succubus and have her make out with you for a few seconds, then suffer some permanent level drain so you can reuse the Bottle.

[Emperor Tippy]

Intended and what it says are 2 different things though.


Experience: A thought bottle can be used to offset level loss as a restoration spell can, but is effective against level loss that even a restoration can't undo (Inculding levels lost due to death, but not the negative levels bestowed by magic items such as a holy weapon). When a user's experience has been stored within the bottle, he can subsequently access the bottle to restore his XP total to exactly what it was when it was last stored, negating any level loss in the interim. Storing experience in the bottle is difficult, and the user must pay 500 XP (Deducted before storing) to do so. Only the creature that stored the experience can retrive it, but if the bottle is destroyed or lost, the user suffers no ill effects.How its actually worded you don't have to lose a level. Its just that if you do happen to lose a level its fine and dandy and replaced along with the XP.

[marjan]

So basicaly, you can get +5 inherent bonus to any stat with 500XP (with your wizard of course). Nice.

[Lemur]

Okay, then it's a little nicer, but still blatantly exploitable. Now all you have to do is Planar Bind a Succubus and have her make out with you for a few seconds, then suffer some permanent level drain so you can reuse the Bottle.

Hey, you know what? Forget Psychic Chirgurery. If a thought bottle lets me make out with succubi with impunity, I'm all for 'em then.

[kamikasei]

So basicaly, you can get +5 inherent bonus to any stat with 500XP (with your wizard of course). Nice.

Remember that you can't use up more XP in castings or manifestings than you have above the minimum for your current level; so you can't simply use a thought bottle, cast or craft your way down to 1XP, and use it to get back up to full (leaving aside the fact that you'd be losing access to the powers you're trying to use as you lose levels).

[marjan]

Yes, but still just making one scroll of Wish at the price of 500 XP is good enough.

[marjan]

Or alternativly you could cast Phoenix Fire for your personal "Blaze of Glory" effect at just 500 XP cost. I'm just wondering who was the mastermind behind this creation.

[kamikasei]

This thought bottle business is making me queasy. I think I'll go with a psionic McGuffin of XP-negating or something - usable only with Psychic Chirurgery, of course, and known only to the six Elans, and possibly destroyed now.

I should note that, as far as I can see, Wish or Reality Revision or Miracle wouldn't let you duplicate this without overreaching. None allow you to duplicate a spell or power higher than 8th level, and none say anything about giving someone else an ability like a spell or power.

[Emperor Tippy]

If you are level drained though you count as 1 level lower for all rules purposes. Including XP spending. Now wish can make any magic item that you can afford to spend the XP on. Well lets level drain our level 17 down to level 16. That gives you 16,000 XP to blow on a wish. Subtract the 5K for the wish and your left with 11K to blow on magic items. But you pay double the normal XP rate. So any ingame item that costs less than 5.5K XP to make is now yours for just 500 XP. And you can improve a magic item the same way.

Lets look at you being only a few XP shy of level 18 though when you are drained. You now have almost 33K XP to work with. Subtract the 5K for wish and divide by 2. You can get any item with a regular XP cost of up to 14K for only 500 XP.


But lets go for the real fun. The wizard and his artificer buddy. The artificer drains the XP from the created item to add to his crafting pool. Do this 10 times and for the actual XP cost of 1 wish your artificer has a crafting pool of 55,000 XP to work with. That is enough to make two +5 Tomes.

[Jasdoif]

This thought bottle business is making me queasy. I think I'll go with a psionic McGuffin of XP-negating or something - usable only with Psychic Chirurgery, of course, and known only to the six Elans, and possibly destroyed now.Disallowing the thought bottle, or altering the way it works, is certainly an option if you're the DM here.

Perhaps, your council of Elan psions discovered an artifact that was like a dorje of psychic chirurgery complete with 9000XP per charge, and they consumed all its charges and supplemented the rest with their own XP.

Or maybe they somehow gained the ability to use psychic chirurgery as a psi-like ability at will. Psi-like abilities don't have XP costs.

[NullAshton]

Thought bottle abuse doesn't work, Wizards has said so themselves. They have said that it only negated XP loss from level drain, NOT from crafting or casting spells.

EDIT: Also, look at Psionic Powers Overview in the SRD. A psion can gain knowledge of any spell by spending one week per level of the power, with 200 XP spent per week. At the end of the time, and with a successful psicraft check, the character learns the new power.

[Douglas]

If WotC wants to make an official statement that Thought Bottle abuse doesn't work, they need to put it in the errata. They haven't. Until they do, the RAW is that it can restore ANY XP, and only errata can change that.

It's not explicitly stated, but I'm pretty sure the Independent Research section does not allow circumventing the powers known by level charts.

[Emperor Tippy]

If WotC wants to make an official statement that Thought Bottle abuse doesn't work, they need to put it in the errata. They haven't. Until they do, the RAW is that it can restore ANY XP, and only errata can change that.

It's not explicitly stated, but I'm pretty sure the Independent Research section does not allow circumventing the powers known by level charts.
But the power Psychic Chirugery does explicitly allow you to circumvent the powers known table.

And I agree. If WoTC wants to say that Thought Bottles don't restore craft XP thats fine and dandy, but they at least need to put it in the FAQ (if not the errata)

[NullAshton]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070308a

Linky! Official, too.

[kamikasei]

Thank you, I knew I'd seen that somewhere.

It doesn't really help all that much, though. It doesn't either clarify or errata the actual text of the item description. What happens, for example, if you:
- Use a thought bottle while you have <level>+600 xp, leaving you with <level>+100xp.
- Get level drained, leaving you at <level-1> + 50% xp.
- Use that 50% xp, leaving you at <level-1> xp.
- Retrieve the thought bottle's stored xp.

Do you go back up a level, but pay the xp that you used on crafting or whatever? How does this work, since it reduces your xp below the minimum for your level, which crafting and so on explicitly can't do?

[Ramza00]

I'm sure I saw something recently that specifically stated a Thought Bottle could only restore your XP if you'd suffered level loss in the interim, not if you'd been crafting or casting to lose the XP. (Though, given the wording, you could perhaps store your XP in a thought bottle - lose XP to crafting or something similar - have a level drained - and use the bottle to get back all the XP lost, not just the level...)

Bingo and the sage recently said this(note sage rational is not the raw, regardless). Just kill yourself and then have your partner resurrect you and the thought bottle will return your memories.

[Emperor Tippy]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070308a

Linky! Official, too.
Only mildly correct. Its not actually RAW. That distinction belongs only to Published books and Errata (and the sage is neither).

Without a full write up and the sage actually giving a reason (he has been wrong numerous times in the past) or reasons why he decided that way you have to actually go by the rules. The rules are quite clear (broken and should be houseruled but still RAW clear.



Experience: A thought bottle can be used to offset level loss as a restoration spell can, but is effective against level loss that even a restoration can't undo (Including levels lost due to death, but not the negative levels bestowed by magic items such as a holy weapon).
Here is the first thing a thought bottle can do. Restore a lost level.


When a user's experience has been stored within the bottle, he can subsequently access the bottle to restore his XP total to exactly what it was when it was last stored,
Heres another thing that the thought bottle can do. It is quite clear. When the bottle is accessed it restores the users XP total to exactly what it was when last stored.


negating any level loss in the interim.
The above restoration of the XP has the side effect of restoring a lost level (as your XP total is now great enough to level you).

Incidentally a Thought Bottle can't restore any more than 1 missing level. If you gain enough XP to level you more than once at a single time then you get enough XP to put exactly 1 below the second level.

So while the sage is most likely correct in saying what was intended, and it should be housruled that way, he is RAW wrong. Maybe it will be errated in the Rules Compendium but until such a time as official errata comes out you can RAW use the bottle to craft for cheap.

[Ramza00]

Shame on Everybody that posted so far in this post.

We spent 36 posts on this topic and nobody mentioned psychic reformation

2 lvl 18 psions are all you need. Lvl 17 for 9th lvl powers, lvl 18 for a feat to use with expanded knowledge. Psychic Reformation every single power using expanded knowledge to gain powers that are not part of psion or your discipline. We don't need a large group of psions, we just need two allies.

After you are done with this and have all the non epic psionic powers you gain the body of a tarrasque as follows.

Wow, that's a bunch of work... now for the even harder part.
PART 4: GAINING THE BODY OF THE TARRASQUE
1. Some how locate the tarrasque. Maybe hire a tracker, find some spellcaster who has seen the beast and then pay them to cast discern location (from a scroll if necessary), NPC casting of divination spells will help. I generally allot 50,000 gp to this part of the quest... whatever it takes though.
2. Once the tarrasque is found, combat is simple. Using greater invisibility while flying on the greater carpet of flying under a globe of invisibility, approach within medium range of the tarrasque (preferrably straight above the beast so that it cannot get at you). Once within range, Father will attempt to dominate it (the tarrasque must roll a 15 or higher), after 3 or 4 attempts (the tarrasque is sure to be dominated. All the while, the Son and the Spirit were navigating the carpet out of the way of the beast.
3. Once dominated the Father commands the beast to stay put. The Trinity will approach the tarrasque. The Spirit then approaches the tarrasque and casts polymorph on the beast (assuming it is willing because the Spirit is an ally of the Father and the tarrasque is too stupid to know whether the spell will do it harm or good). Or if this is not good enough for your DM, have the Spirit use Baleful Polymorph while flying around the beast invisible and out of range until it rolls a 1 on its fort save (SR check is not a problem (see Spirit entry above) she always gets a 33 > 32 SR of the tarrasque). Either way, the tarrasque is reduced to a small fuzzy white bunny.
3. Now the tarrasque still has too many hit dice to mind-switch with, but we can deal with this. The trinity grabs hold of the rabbit, and teleports to their safe abode. They put the tarrasque in an adamantine cage. The Spirit whips out her wand of enervation that she crafted and starts blasting the rabbit. (Remember the tarrasque, now a rabbit, is no longer immune to energy drain and does not have SR as those are traits of his former body). After about 30 negative levels have been bestowed the Spirit stops her punishment. (This should take no more than 15 charges) This has the effect of reducing the tarrasque's effective hit dice (as well as its saves). Note that this magical effect is drain on the essence of the tarrasque's soul and therefore will travel with his mind when his mind is no longer in his body.
4.The Father, now shackled with masterwork adamantine manacles, starts casting Mind-Switch with the tarrasque and after a minute usurps the rabbit's body (no chance of failure because the rabbit has a -10 to his will save after 30 negative levels). The Son lets the Father out of the cage. The Father then hops over to his old body and manifests one power on it: microcosm.
5. The Father dispels the polymorph effect on the rabbit and returns to tarrasque form. The old body is taken care of as follows: NPC casts either flesh to stone or crystalize on it, it is permanently reduced to tiny and placed in a jar filled with quintessence. This jar is then placed in a bag of holding which is kept in the Father's posession.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=523121

This is why you should not do cheese.

[Mewtarthio]

Shame on Everybody that posted so far in this post.

We spent 36 posts on this topic and nobody mentioned psychic reformation

2 lvl 18 psions are all you need. Lvl 17 for 9th lvl powers, lvl 18 for a feat to use with expanded knowledge. Psychic Reformation every single power using expanded knowledge to gain powers that are not part of psion or your discipline. We don't need a large group of psions, we just need two allies.

But what about the ninth-level powers outside your discipline?

[Jasdoif]

Thank you, I knew I'd seen that somewhere.

It doesn't really help all that much, though. It doesn't either clarify or errata the actual text of the item description. What happens, for example, if you:
- Use a thought bottle while you have <level>+600 xp, leaving you with <level>+100xp.
- Get level drained, leaving you at <level-1> + 50% xp.
- Use that 50% xp, leaving you at <level-1> xp.
- Retrieve the thought bottle's stored xp.

Do you go back up a level, but pay the xp that you used on crafting or whatever? How does this work, since it reduces your xp below the minimum for your level, which crafting and so on explicitly can't do?The only way I can think of that will make it any different then what it was before (with the added inconvenience of having to die and pay for the resurrection), is that it restores the amount of XP you had when you died, up to a maximum of the amount you had after paying the 500XP to use the bottle. That would be a house rule, of course.

In my personal opinion though, the experience use of the thought bottle is sheer bad taste. It makes true resurrection far less useful worthless as long as the body exists, since you can negate the level loss. Even the epic life seed doesn't negate that!


Shame on Everybody that posted so far in this post.

We spent 36 posts on this topic and nobody mentioned psychic reformation

2 lvl 18 psions are all you need. Lvl 17 for 9th lvl powers, lvl 18 for a feat to use with expanded knowledge. Psychic Reformation every single power using expanded knowledge to gain powers that are not part of psion or your discipline. We don't need a large group of psions, we just need two allies.Sure, if you ignore the part where Expanded Knowledge lets you pick powers that are up to one level lower then the maximum you can manifest. (Or were you planning to do this at 21st with Epic Expanded Knowledge?)

And that by replacing one expanded knowledge feat with another you would lose the benefit of the first, in this case the particular power you added.

[Ramza00]

Sure, if you ignore the part where Expanded Knowledge lets you pick powers that are up to one level lower then the maximum you can manifest. (Or were you planning to do this at 21st with Epic Expanded Knowledge?)

And that by replacing one expanded knowledge feat with another you would lose the benefit of the first, in this case the particular power you added.

I forgot that its one level lower than the max you can cast. So yeah it would have to be lvl 21.

The whole point is using expanded knowledge on Person A get the power you need, than use Psychic Chirurgery to transfer it to Person B. Now psychic reformation on person A and get a new power and expanded knowledge. Repeat process till person B has all powers known, then he uses psychic chirugery on person A till that person knows them all.

[Douglas]

And that by replacing one expanded knowledge feat with another you would lose the benefit of the first, in this case the particular power you added.
But you already gave that power to the other guy with Psychic Chirurgery, and he can give it right back after you switch out the feat. End result, both of you know that power without having to spend anything but a little time and some XP (negated by the Thought Bottle), leaving your normal powers known and feats available for other stuff.

[Aquillion]

Or you could, you know, play an Erudite. Just a thought.

[Jasdoif]

The whole point is using expanded knowledge on Person A get the power you need, than use Psychic Chirurgery to transfer it to Person B. Now psychic reformation on person A and get a new power and expanded knowledge. Repeat process till person B has all powers known, then he uses psychic chirugery on person A till that person knows them all.
Ahh...must've missed that part.

But...since you transfer the power via psychic chirurgery, reform with psychic reformation, then have the other guy use psychic chirurgery to give it back to you...aren't you paying XP for the power transfer twice, plus the 50 for reformation for each power?

[Ramza00]

Another benefit is making a metamind useful.

Using this power with a Psion 5/Metamind 10/Psion 3 (as person B not Person A). Sure you are 5 manifester levels behind thus you are about 122 power points behind (You do get font of power and free manifesting several times per day) but with practiced manifester (which gives you more bonus power points) your manifester level is now 17 and not 13 at lvl 18. Thus you can learn up to 9th lvl powers with psychic chirugery for you don't need to be able to cast those powers normal, just manifest them (which you can now manifest every 9th lvl power.

There is also a trick with metamind and the temporal reiteration. Temporal Reiteration is a power in complete psionic that is swift action and costs 9 power points (Nomad 5). It increases the duration of all ongoing effects by 1 round. Thus you can use Temporal Reiteration to continue the font of power ability. Then use Font of Power to manifest Bestow Power. With Bestow Power he can now give 10 power points per round to Psion A. It would normally cost him 15 power points to do this, but since he is using font of power, he can give power points with no cost. Eventually Psion B decides Psion A has enough power points and stops his font of power/temporal reiteration trick. Psion A then gives power points back to Psion B so they are equally distributed.

So yes all powers known (besides some 9th lvl ones which you will hunt down people and pay them/dominate to give you) and enough power points per day. One of the few ways you can break psionics. Here is another one.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=793447

Remember cheese is bad, it can get stinky. Chocolate Milkshakes are better :smallsmile:

[Ramza00]

Ahh...must've missed that part.

But...since you transfer the power via psychic chirurgery, reform with psychic reformation, then have the other guy use psychic chirurgery to give it back to you...aren't you paying XP for the power transfer twice, plus the 50 for reformation for each power?

Yes, but with thought bottle cheese that isn't much of a problem (note I have said the word cheese a total now of 3 times in this thread.)

[marjan]

Thought bottle abuse doesn't work, Wizards has said so themselves. They have said that it only negated XP loss from level drain, NOT from crafting or casting spells.
Not quite wording they have in the description of it.

And once again from something completly broken they made useless crap.

[kamikasei]

The only way I can think of that will make it any different then what it was before (with the added inconvenience of having to die and pay for the resurrection), is that it restores the amount of XP you had when you died, up to a maximum of the amount you had after paying the 500XP to use the bottle. That would be a house rule, of course.

You don't need to die to lose the level (I think...), getting level drained would do.