Dragon PCs

[torrasque666]

So from my understanding of the rules from the Draconomicon, if playing with a DM who doesn't use a lot of downtime, one never actually ages up right? allowing for repeated class levels without actual RHD?

Any tips or tricks I can do if this is true?

[WhamBamSam]

So from my understanding of the rules from the Draconomicon, if playing with a DM who doesn't use a lot of downtime, one never actually ages up right? allowing for repeated class levels without actual RHD?

Any tips or tricks I can do if this is true?Yes, this is true. There are also some tricks that you can use even in campaigns with lots of downtime to keep yourself young and impressionable, so that you don't have to eat any more RHD/LA than you already have. Quintessence (especially for tiny sized dragons for which you need less of it) and Smoky Confinement are good options.

The handbook in my sig should be helpful for making a dragon PC. Usually when I come across one of these threads someone else has already posted a link to it.

What kind of dragon are you looking into playing? I might be able to give some more specific advice.

[torrasque666]

Yes, this is true. There are also some tricks that you can use even in campaigns with lots of downtime to keep yourself young and impressionable, so that you don't have to eat any more RHD/LA than you already have. Quintessence (especially for tiny sized dragons for which you need less of it) and Smoky Confinement are good options.

The handbook in my sig should be helpful for making a dragon PC. Usually when I come across one of these threads someone else has already posted a link to it.

What kind of dragon are you looking into playing? I might be able to give some more specific advice.

Something that's either a beatstick(i love my beatsticks) without much of a casting focus. So not gishing. Either force or sonic breath weapon if possible.

[Jeff the Green]

Sounds like a cobalt dragon might be good. They have a line of force that bullrushes, and WhamBamSam has a build using them with dungeoncrasher.

[WhamBamSam]

The Wyrm of War Sovereign Archetype is your friend. If it's allowed, and you can manage the need to feed, take the Ravening Dragon Psychosis as well.

Mercury Dragons are pretty great. They have a reasonable ECL, especially with LA buyoff, and that fly speed is just oh so nice. A Flyby Attacking and eventually Tornado Throwing Swordsage is a nice way to go, as is dipping Totemist 2 for the Landshark Boots, then loading up on bonus damage for your 4-hit Flyby Attacks (though that stupid bit in the Rules Compendium about standard action attacks only getting precision damage on the first one makes that harder than it ought to be). Their breath weapon deals fire damage though.

The Sapphire Wyrmling and Battle Wyrmling are both 5 HD/2 LA and deal sonic damage with their breath weapons. Battle Dragons have a secondary fear breath, whereas the Sapphire uses a smaller dice size for the breath damage, but forces a will save against panic along with the damage. Battle Dragons have Perform as a class skill which can help them into various Bard PrCs. Battle Wyrmling of War Crusader, or Warblade 1/Warrior Skald 1/War Chanter 10/Crusader or Warblade +X isn't a bad build, nor is Sapphire Wyrmling of War 5/ LA 2/Disciple of the Eye 2/Avenging Executioner 5/Ninja 3/Disciple of the Eye +2/Whatever 1. The former is more of a buffer/leader with solid melee power and breath attack possibilities. The latter is a fear-op build, using the Sapphire Dragon breath weapon, Disciple of the Eye auto-qualification, and Avenging Executioner to debuff enemies with fear and then pummel them with Sudden Strike damage.

The varieties that spring to mind for force damage breath weapons are Ethereal Dragons, Radiant Dragons, and Cobalt Dragons. Ethereal Wyrmlings have basically nothing of interest besides the breath weapon, but they're the lowest ECL of the three, with only 4 RHD/2 LA. Your best bet would be to go Ravening, pick up 8 levels of Factotum and a Crown of the North Wind as soon as possible, and spam breath attacks like there's no tomorrow. Radiant Dragons have an obscene ECL with 9 RHD/4 LA, but they have medium size for wing attacks and good stats so you might be able to just load up on . Something like Ravening Radiant Wyrmling of War 9/LA 4/Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Wolf Totem Barbarian 1/Battle Dancer 1/Paladin of Freedom* 4/Barbarian +1 for just swinging away with a sheer number of attacks (bolstered by Improved Rapidstrike for both Claws and Wings) with bonus damage from sources like Shock Trooper, Knowledge Devotion, and Divine Might might be okay if you just want to maul face and occasionally breathe force. Cobalt Dragons are over ECL'd at 5 RHD/4 LA, but their breath weapon is just so darn cool what with its force damage and bull rush effect. Marshal for the Art of War Minor Aura (the only thing which boosts the check other than more damage by RAW) and Dungeoncrasher Fighter (because you're bull rushing, so duh) are basically mandatory. I'm fond of Cobalt Wyrmling of War 5/LA 4/Marshal 1/Zhentarim Soldier Dungeoncrasher Fighter 10 or Marshal 4/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/X 1.

If any of these sound appealing I can help put more complete builds together if you like.

*Horned Harbinger is a much better way to close out the last 5 levels of the build, but it requires you be Evil and worship Myrkul, which is a little weird for a dragon native to Celestia.

[TypoNinja]

Something that's either a beatstick(i love my beatsticks) without much of a casting focus. So not gishing. Either force or sonic breath weapon if possible.

If you are looking for beatstick Fang Dragon gives up its breath weapon in exchange for increased melee damage by one size catagory and a Con drain (yes drain) on bite.

[WhamBamSam]

If you are looking for beatstick Fang Dragon gives up its breath weapon in exchange for increased melee damage by one size catagory and a Con drain (yes drain) on bite.The reason I didn't mention Fang Dragons is that he said he doesn't want to gish, and Fang Wyrmlings really benefit from taking something with the PsyWar Power List so they can size up with Expansion and make more attacks/better use of their trip ability, or size down to the point of true ridiculousness for Confound the Big Folk type shenanigans. Also, as nice as being able to deal Ability Drain is, it not scaling with level is kind of a drag. Dragons with actual breath attacks can at least buy a Crown of the North Wind and be treated as if they were of Young age for effects that depend on age category (like damage).

I guess Confound the Big Folk optimization might still work okay (tiny size is pretty good) and/or you could load up things that deal Con damage/drain on your Bite. Shadow Hand and Stone Dragon have a some good maneuvers for the latter and the former would likely be easy to squeeze in, with how feat heavy Wyrm of War makes you. So maybe a Fang Dragon Swordsage.

[torrasque666]

I'd also like to avoid faerunian dragons if I can.

[RedMage125]

Dragon #320 had Savage Species-stye progressions for the 5 core Metallic dragon types.

Dragon #332 had the same for the 5 core Chromatics.

[WhamBamSam]

I'd also like to avoid faerunian dragons if I can.That rules out Mercury, and maybe Shadow and Fang from among the good non-casting dragons, though the latter two were both reprinted in Draconomicon. None of the others I mentioned have specific ties to a given setting. Did any of them sound appealing? Any thoughts on a particular flavor of beatstick you might want (ie, what sort of fighting style)? I was just sort of tossing out whatever came to mind in my post last night.

[torrasque666]

That rules out Mercury, and maybe Shadow and Fang from among the good non-casting dragons, though the latter two were both reprinted in Draconomicon. None of the others I mentioned have specific ties to a given setting. Did any of them sound appealing? Any thoughts on a particular flavor of beatstick you might want (ie, what sort of fighting style)? I was just sort of tossing out whatever came to mind in my post last night.

Either some sort of speedy skirmisher or natural weapon attacker.

[WhamBamSam]

Either some sort of speedy skirmisher or natural weapon attacker.Well, natural weapon attacker is sort of a nebulous term. Most dragon builds will use some natural attack at some point. But it sounds like the Sapphire Dragon build and the Radiant Dragon build might suit your fancy. Here are some more complete stubs and explanations. Maybe you'll like one of them or at least some portion of it.

Sapphire Wyrmling of War 5/Disciple of the Eye 4/Avenging Executioner 5/Ninja 3/Hit-and-Run Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 3
1. Dragon HD 1 - Flyby Attack
2. Dragon HD 2
3. Dragon HD 3 - Darkstalker
4. Dragon HD 4 -Improved Unarmed Strike
5. Dragon HD 5
6. Disciple of the Eye 1 - Martial Study (Cloak of Deception)
7. Disciple of the Eye 2
8. Avenging Executioner 1 - Weapon Finesse
9. Avenging Executioner 2 - Superior Unarmed Strike
10. Avenging Executioner 3
11. Avenging Executioner 4
12. Avenging Executioner 5 - Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance or Child of Shadow), Shadow Blade
13. Ninja 1
14. Ninja 2
15. Hit-and-Run Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 1 - Craven
16. Disciple of the Eye 3 - Intimidating Strike
17. Disciple of the Eye 4
18. Ninja 3 - Gloom Razor
19. Fighter* 2
20. Fighter* 3 - Martial Study (Obscuring Shadow Veil) or Quicken Breath

*Last two Fighter levels assume LA Buyoff. If it's not available, then they can be dropped. If multiclass penalties are enforced, you can switch up Ninja 3 and Fighter 2 to avoid them.

Stealthy skirmishing and fear. Your breath weapon can cause panic, eventually can attempt 3 separate fear effects on a single flyby attack and once you reach Disciple of the Eye 4 you have a swift action fear effect to throw around as well. You've also got great stealth, high speed, and (Ex) spider climb. Even damage output is respectable with lots of precision dice, which Avenging Executioner keeps reliable by making enemies under a fear effect flatfooted for Sudden Strike purposes, Craven, and Dex to damage twice. As a dragon, you also have UMD as a class skill on your RHD, so you can potentially get the ranks in to manage a few of the necessary wands to deal with enemies that are normally immune.

Radiant Wyrmling of War 9/LA +4/Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Battle Dancer 1/Horned Harbinger 5
1. Dragon 1 - Power Attack
2. Dragon 2
3. Dragon 3 - Knowledge Devotion
4. Dragon 4 - Improved Bull Rush
5. Dragon 5
6. Dragon 6 - Shock Trooper
7. Dragon 7
8. Dragon 8 - Multiattack
9. Dragon 9 - Rapidstrike (Claws)
10. Pouncebarian 1
11. Battle Dancer 1 - Improved Unarmed Strike
12. Horned Harbinger 1 - Divine Might, Beast Strike, Death Devotion
13. Horned Harbinger 2
14. Horned Harbinger 3 - Extra Turning
15. Horned Harbinger 4 - Improved Rapidstrike (Claws), Extra Turning
16. Horned Harbinger 5 - Improved Rapidstrike (Wings)

I posted a good aligned stub above, but this is just a better build. The Paladin version loses out on either one of the two Improved Rapidstrikes or on Divine Might, in addition to a natural attack and the nice undead goodies. So we've got a stolen egg or traitor on our hands here. You can make 19 attacks on a full attack with Shock Trooper, Knowledge Devotion, and Divine Might, though you might consider dropping Knowledge Devotion, and taking Travel Devotion instead. Nothing fancy here, just a furious flying blender. If you ever leave an intact corpse, raise it with SLA animate dead.