Magic as a skill in 3.5

[JackRackham]

A friend of mine had an idea (after looking at the homebrew rules for a low-magic, gestalt campaign setting in JaronK's discussion of the tier system) for a setting where magic is a skill that anyone could, in theory, train (in his world, though, the magic would have needed a source).

I like the idea, obviously, or I wouldn't be bringing it up. It could allow non-casters to have limited spellcasting abilities. It could allow DMs to easily scale how powerful magic users are without making magic itself less powerful. It would make magic less dependable, even dangerous, which adds mystery. I feel like there could be real problems, too however. It could be hard to get the DCs to make sense, given how D&D's skill system scales.

But, I have a bunch of ideas of how this could work. Spellcraft could simply allow any character to learn, prepare and cast spells. Alternatively, spellcraft could be broken up by school (with different schools perhaps governed by different attributes), leading to greater opportunities for specialization. Or spellcraft could be the check to cast and (Transmutation, Conjuration, etc) could be used to learn/craft spells. On a related note, Wizard specialization could mean two of these skills aren't class skills and one gets a (now-meaningful) bonus, in exchange.

Of course, this begs the question of whether these spells would be at-will, or whether you would need spell slots. And, if you need spell slots, do you get that from your class?

I feel like there is a lot one would have to work out, so I put it to the Playground: what are the main issues/challenges here? How would you do this? What set of DCs would work for a standard, high-fantasy d&d setting?

Edit: Factotum would probably have to be banned, of course.

[Emperor Tippy]

Let's see.

The general rules for my casting as skills system.

Each school of magic has its own Skill (Transmutation is a skill, for example). To cast a spell requires a skill check of 10+CL to cast the spell. So 11 for a 1st level spell and 27 for a 9th level spell. A natural 1 costs you a spell slot and any material or XP components that the spell requires, any other failure costs you the casting time of the spell but not any of the rest.

Everyone gets spells slots equal to their Int+Cha+Wis bonuses. So 30 Int would get you 10 spell slots and 30 Wis would get you another 10. Spell slots refresh at dawn each day if the character spends 15 minutes meditating.

To learn a spell requires a spell craft check equal to 20+ the spells required caster level (17 for a 9th level spell), a character can't take 20 on this check and it can only be made once per specific spell per character level. So if you fail to learn a spell then you must level up before you can try again. This check takes one day per level of the spell you are trying to learn (so 9 days of downtime to learn a 9th level spell).

Spell slots are not level dependent, you could theoretically cast 30 9th level spells in a day if you wanted to do so.

Spells also need not be prepared in spells slots. Spontaneously cast spells do, however, take another spell slot for each metamagic on the spell and gain no bonus to the skill check to cast the spell while also requiring all the material of focus components of a spell. Any cast can choose to prepare a spell at the start of the day (when meditating to regain spell slots) and in doing so they can put all of the meta that they want on the spell without taking up more slots. In addition another slot can be spent to negate the need for a material component and a second additional slot can be spent to negate the need for a focus component. If you spend all of your spell slots on a single spell then you can negate an XP component. You can also spend additional slots when preparing a spell to reduce the skill check required to cast it (2 point reduction per additional slot spent, might need to increase it a bit for balance reasons). To prepare a spell requires a relevant skill check of 10+spell CL and failure means that the spell can't be prepared that day (although it can still be spontaneously cast).

Casting classes get the relevant skills as class skills and get other benefits, wizards for example get to reduce the skill check of any spell that they prepare by half of their wizard level (so by 10 for a level 20 wizard).

---
I've played with this system for about 20 hours of total game time and it seemed to work out alright but it has not been extensively play tested so use it at your own risk.

[Crake]

Let's see.

The general rules for my casting as skills system.

Each school of magic has its own Skill (Transmutation is a skill, for example). To cast a spell requires a skill check of 10+CL to cast the spell. So 11 for a 1st level spell and 27 for a 9th level spell. A natural 1 costs you a spell slot and any material or XP components that the spell requires, any other failure costs you the casting time of the spell but not any of the rest.

Everyone gets spells slots equal to their Int+Cha+Wis bonuses. So 30 Int would get you 10 spell slots and 30 Wis would get you another 10. Spell slots refresh at dawn each day if the character spends 15 minutes meditating.

To learn a spell requires a spell craft check equal to 20+ the spells required caster level (17 for a 9th level spell), a character can't take 20 on this check and it can only be made once per specific spell per character level. So if you fail to learn a spell then you must level up before you can try again. This check takes one day per level of the spell you are trying to learn (so 9 days of downtime to learn a 9th level spell).

Spell slots are not level dependent, you could theoretically cast 30 9th level spells in a day if you wanted to do so.

Spells also need not be prepared in spells slots. Spontaneously cast spells do, however, take another spell slot for each metamagic on the spell and gain no bonus to the skill check to cast the spell while also requiring all the material of focus components of a spell. Any cast can choose to prepare a spell at the start of the day (when meditating to regain spell slots) and in doing so they can put all of the meta that they want on the spell without taking up more slots. In addition another slot can be spent to negate the need for a material component and a second additional slot can be spent to negate the need for a focus component. If you spend all of your spell slots on a single spell then you can negate an XP component. You can also spend additional slots when preparing a spell to reduce the skill check required to cast it (2 point reduction per additional slot spent, might need to increase it a bit for balance reasons). To prepare a spell requires a relevant skill check of 10+spell CL and failure means that the spell can't be prepared that day (although it can still be spontaneously cast).

Casting classes get the relevant skills as class skills and get other benefits, wizards for example get to reduce the skill check of any spell that they prepare by half of their wizard level (so by 10 for a level 20 wizard).

---
I've played with this system for about 20 hours of total game time and it seemed to work out alright but it has not been extensively play tested so use it at your own risk.

Do you have a more extensive list of rules for this? It looks quiet interesting, but may need some tweaking (like for example, if you only have 1 or 2 spells per day, the XP negation seems a little too easy to achieve)

[torrasque666]

Let's see.

The general rules for my casting as skills system.

Each school of magic has its own Skill (Transmutation is a skill, for example). To cast a spell requires a skill check of 10+CL to cast the spell. So 11 for a 1st level spell and 27 for a 9th level spell. A natural 1 costs you a spell slot and any material or XP components that the spell requires, any other failure costs you the casting time of the spell but not any of the rest.

Everyone gets spells slots equal to their Int+Cha+Wis bonuses. So 30 Int would get you 10 spell slots and 30 Wis would get you another 10. Spell slots refresh at dawn each day if the character spends 15 minutes meditating.

To learn a spell requires a spell craft check equal to 20+ the spells required caster level (17 for a 9th level spell), a character can't take 20 on this check and it can only be made once per specific spell per character level. So if you fail to learn a spell then you must level up before you can try again. This check takes one day per level of the spell you are trying to learn (so 9 days of downtime to learn a 9th level spell).

Spell slots are not level dependent, you could theoretically cast 30 9th level spells in a day if you wanted to do so.

Spells also need not be prepared in spells slots. Spontaneously cast spells do, however, take another spell slot for each metamagic on the spell and gain no bonus to the skill check to cast the spell while also requiring all the material of focus components of a spell. Any cast can choose to prepare a spell at the start of the day (when meditating to regain spell slots) and in doing so they can put all of the meta that they want on the spell without taking up more slots. In addition another slot can be spent to negate the need for a material component and a second additional slot can be spent to negate the need for a focus component. If you spend all of your spell slots on a single spell then you can negate an XP component. You can also spend additional slots when preparing a spell to reduce the skill check required to cast it (2 point reduction per additional slot spent, might need to increase it a bit for balance reasons). To prepare a spell requires a relevant skill check of 10+spell CL and failure means that the spell can't be prepared that day (although it can still be spontaneously cast).

Casting classes get the relevant skills as class skills and get other benefits, wizards for example get to reduce the skill check of any spell that they prepare by half of their wizard level (so by 10 for a level 20 wizard).

---
I've played with this system for about 20 hours of total game time and it seemed to work out alright but it has not been extensively play tested so use it at your own risk.

Huh. This seems like a good way to go about removing the T1/T2 classes from a game, yet not removing the effect they'd have. Interesting. I'll pass this along to my DM one day.

[Shadowquad]

A side effect of Tippy's method might be to make factotums the best spellcasting class, as they can make insane skill checks outside of combat, when learning and preparing spells.
Although it only works once per day per skill, their bonus to the relevant skill is equal to their class level, i.e. twice the bonus of a wizard of the same level.

[Crake]

A side effect of Tippy's method might be to make factotums the best spellcasting class, as they can make insane skill checks outside of combat, when learning and preparing spells.
Although it only works once per day per skill, their bonus to the relevant skill is equal to their class level, i.e. twice the bonus of a wizard of the same level.

clearly, factotums are the new tier 1

[Gemini476]

I assume that you've taken a look at Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm)? Because that's the first thing I think of when people say "low-magic skill-based casting that anyone can use".

[nedz]

It always struck me as strange than you can cast perfect illusions no matter what your artistic skill level is. This is not so much about casting the spell competently, but rather how realistic the effect is. The same kind of argument could apply to travel based spells and the ability to navigate, or not.

[Yael]

Let's see.

The general rules for my casting as skills system.

Each school of magic has its own Skill (Transmutation is a skill, for example). To cast a spell requires a skill check of 10+CL to cast the spell. So 11 for a 1st level spell and 27 for a 9th level spell. A natural 1 costs you a spell slot and any material or XP components that the spell requires, any other failure costs you the casting time of the spell but not any of the rest.

Everyone gets spells slots equal to their Int+Cha+Wis bonuses. So 30 Int would get you 10 spell slots and 30 Wis would get you another 10. Spell slots refresh at dawn each day if the character spends 15 minutes meditating.

To learn a spell requires a spell craft check equal to 20+ the spells required caster level (17 for a 9th level spell), a character can't take 20 on this check and it can only be made once per specific spell per character level. So if you fail to learn a spell then you must level up before you can try again. This check takes one day per level of the spell you are trying to learn (so 9 days of downtime to learn a 9th level spell).

Spell slots are not level dependent, you could theoretically cast 30 9th level spells in a day if you wanted to do so.

Spells also need not be prepared in spells slots. Spontaneously cast spells do, however, take another spell slot for each metamagic on the spell and gain no bonus to the skill check to cast the spell while also requiring all the material of focus components of a spell. Any cast can choose to prepare a spell at the start of the day (when meditating to regain spell slots) and in doing so they can put all of the meta that they want on the spell without taking up more slots. In addition another slot can be spent to negate the need for a material component and a second additional slot can be spent to negate the need for a focus component. If you spend all of your spell slots on a single spell then you can negate an XP component. You can also spend additional slots when preparing a spell to reduce the skill check required to cast it (2 point reduction per additional slot spent, might need to increase it a bit for balance reasons). To prepare a spell requires a relevant skill check of 10+spell CL and failure means that the spell can't be prepared that day (although it can still be spontaneously cast).

Casting classes get the relevant skills as class skills and get other benefits, wizards for example get to reduce the skill check of any spell that they prepare by half of their wizard level (so by 10 for a level 20 wizard).

---
I've played with this system for about 20 hours of total game time and it seemed to work out alright but it has not been extensively play tested so use it at your own risk.

This is just so damn solid. Tippy, my liege.

[gooddragon1]

Hold on now, doesn't truenaming count as magic? It uses skills to generate results... sometimes. It's in a tier of it's own.

[Gemini476]

Hold on now, doesn't truenaming count as magic? It uses skills to generate results... sometimes. It's in a tier of it's own.

It certainly does, although it's got a lot of problems. Even if you reduce the insane DCs to a manageable level, or optimize your skill checks so they're pretty much at-will, or just outright homebrew it into actually being at-will like the Warlock? The Utterances just... aren't good. There's a few noteable outliers, but most of them are just bad.


Fax Celestis is working on a PF "Truenaming" thing for Dreamscarred Press (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?380602-Dreamscarred-Press-Tzocatl-The-First-Language-Open-Playtest)that looks decent, though. It might be worth nicking some ideas from, I suppose.

[Coidzor]

It always struck me as strange than you can cast perfect illusions no matter what your artistic skill level is. This is not so much about casting the spell competently, but rather how realistic the effect is. The same kind of argument could apply to travel based spells and the ability to navigate, or not.

I think part of it may be a thematic difficulty in deciding what would have to be rolled and how it'd be opposed .

[Gemini476]

I think part of it may be a thematic difficulty in deciding what would have to be rolled and how it'd be opposed .

Craft(Illusion) vs. Int check? Maybe?

Not that specific example, though, since the math for that is quite frankly unusable. A Wizard is expected to max out his Int constantly, so that would end up being a 23 point difference at level 20! On a 20-sided die.

[thorr-kan]

I assume that you've taken a look at Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm)? Because that's the first thing I think of when people say "low-magic skill-based casting that anyone can use".
That's the route I'd go, too.

Incantation Sources:
Unearthed Arcana
Urban Arcana (D20 Modern)
Zombie Sky Press's Incantations from the Other Side and Incantations in Theory and Practice PDFs (PF)
a bunch of stuff by Kobold Press, scattered throughout their products.

[Prime32]

It always struck me as strange than you can cast perfect illusions no matter what your artistic skill level is. This is not so much about casting the spell competently, but rather how realistic the effect is. The same kind of argument could apply to travel based spells and the ability to navigate, or not.I've done some work with converting spells into feat chains (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=67) that are either based on your ranks in a skill, or enhance the normal usage of that skill (e.g. charm person becomes a feat that lets you rush Diplomacy checks without penalty, as long as your target isn't somehow warded against magic).

[nedz]

I've done some work with converting spells into feat chains (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=67) that are either based on your ranks in a skill, or enhance the normal usage of that skill (e.g. charm person becomes a feat that lets you rush Diplomacy checks without penalty, as long as your target isn't somehow warded against magic).

Interesting. At first glance this is like a cross between Warlock and 5E casters ?

[Extra Anchovies]

I've done some work with converting spells into feat chains (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=67) that are either based on your ranks in a skill, or enhance the normal usage of that skill (e.g. charm person becomes a feat that lets you rush Diplomacy checks without penalty, as long as your target isn't somehow warded against magic).

Oooh, this is really cool! I like, definitely bookmarking this.

[SiuiS]

A friend of mine did extensive breakdowns on epic magic for some ungodly reason, and I did some cursory overview in te same vein, and the result was to find that the system basically works exactly as Tippy described – the epic magic system works for non epic magic, requiring a skill check per spell of approximately what a character of the appropriate level could routinely make. If you're willing to kibosh skill abuse, you could make your magic system out of spellcraft and the epic magic seeds, just allowing the existence of weaker effects in tr same vein for lower base DC.

Or you could pinch Tippy's. Probably simpler.

[Ansem]

Magic as skill checks, just no....

[gorfnab]

A variant I've kicked around a few times based on a version from one of the DMs I played with at college:

No Spell Slots. As long as you can make the Spellcraft check you can cast the spell. Abilities that use a Spell Slot are treated as if you were trying to cast a spell of the required level.

Spellcraft DC to cast a spell = 10 + level of spell you are trying to cast + number of spells you have cast that day (does not include cantrips, see below).

Spellcraft DC to cast a cantrip (0th level spell) = 10 + number of cantrips that you have cast that day.

Spellcraft skill is based on the spell save DC stat of the class.

Spells known gained for full spellcasters (and Bards) at casting mod (unmodified by magic items, minimum 2) per level. Cantrips (0th level spells) known is equal to casting mod (unmodified by magic items, minimum 2) at first level with a bonus cantrip known on levels that are multiples of 4 (4, 8, 12, etc...). So a first level Cleric with an 18 Wisdom would know 4 cantrips and 4 first level spells. At 2nd level that Cleric would add 4 spells of any level they can cast to their spells known list (so 4 more first level spells, or 2 first level spells and 2 cantrips, etc...). For full spellcasters follow the chart for Cleric to determine level of spells you can cast (Bards follow the Bard chart). Half casters such as ranger gain one spell known every level starting at the level they can cast spells.

Spellcasters do not have to prepare spells. You can cast any spell you know if you can make a successful Spellcraft check. Spellcasters regain spells (basically reset spells cast that day) after 8 hours of rest and 15 minutes of meditation or prayer (similar to a sorcerer). Any class that can cast spells but does not have Spellcraft as a skill gains Spellcraft as a class skill.

New class: Mage (gestalt of Sorcerer/Wizard) - basically Saves, BAB, HD, Familiar, Skill points per level, and Proficiencies of a Sorcerer. Skill list is the combined list of Sorcerer and Wizard skills. Scribe Scroll and bonus feats of a Wizard. Spellcasting stat can be Int or Cha chosen at first level. Ability to switch out spells known on the even levels as a Sorcerer.

[thorr-kan]

That's the route I'd go, too.

Incantation Sources:
Unearthed Arcana
Urban Arcana (D20 Modern)
Zombie Sky Press's Incantations from the Other Side and Incantations in Theory and Practice PDFs (PF)
a bunch of stuff by Kobold Press, scattered throughout their products.

Also, errata from the Freeport setting, specifically the D20 Freeport Companion (renamed 3rd Era Freeport Companion when the d20 license expired):
Freeport Incantation Rules for d20
https://sites.google.com/site/timserrataarchive/home/freeport-errata/d20-freeport-companion/freeport-incantation-rules-for-d20

[SiuiS]

Magic as skill checks, just no....

Why not? Actual reasoning or knee jerk reaction?

It's actually perfect. It lets you have magic be non-guaranteed at first and slowly become mastered, each new level of effort being harder than the last, and it lets you have wiggle room so your reach can exceed your grasp, to pull out effects that you normally couldn't. Or to reduce effect to have a better guarantee.

[mabriss lethe]

You might also want to look at Starwars Saga Edition and its Force rules.

[Snowbluff]

Hold on now, doesn't truenaming count as magic? It uses skills to generate results... sometimes. It's in a tier of it's own.
No it counts as rabies.

[Knaight]

It's actually perfect. It lets you have magic be non-guaranteed at first and slowly become mastered, each new level of effort being harder than the last, and it lets you have wiggle room so your reach can exceed your grasp, to pull out effects that you normally couldn't. Or to reduce effect to have a better guarantee.

It also creates a really, really effective skill that is way more useful than other skills unless there are some serious constraints as to use. Plus, 3.5 has so much in the way of skill shenanigans that it can be extremely broken - that was the fundamental issue with the Truenamer, and it's still the case here.

With that said, if feats are also brought in, and the rules are understood to be within the optimization parameters of the group(s) they are made for, it could work pretty well.

[Gemini476]

Why not? Actual reasoning or knee jerk reaction?

It's actually perfect. It lets you have magic be non-guaranteed at first and slowly become mastered, each new level of effort being harder than the last, and it lets you have wiggle room so your reach can exceed your grasp, to pull out effects that you normally couldn't. Or to reduce effect to have a better guarantee.

It does have some issues with how the skill system in general is terribly unbalanced and abusable, however. But that's what you get when the bonuses are between -5 and +lots on a d20, I guess.

As long as you make sure that the spells won't be horribly unbalanced by being usable at-will that's alright, though. There's lots of ways to go about doing that with even powerful effects.