Using the wizard class to play a fighter type character

[questionmark693]

So I see comments made about how a wizard can fill every role. How does a wizard play a fighter at low levels? What's the lowest level it's possible, and how?

[Troacctid]

Trade your familiar for an animal companion. Your riding dog buddy should do a fine job tripping the bad guys. At 3rd level, you can get Alter Self to pick up a natural armor bonus that will make you nice and tanky, even if your HP is subpar. And once you get Polymorph at 7th level, it's elementary from there.

There's probably better ways to do it, but that's off the top of my head.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sub familiar for animal companion (UA), buff it with mage armor, expeditious retreat, etc. Buffed riding dog murders face better than a 1st level fighter ever could.

Edit: bah! Ninjas.

[questionmark693]

Ok, cool. So I'm asking because I'm potentially going to actually try to make this work...is it feasible to make the animal companion keep up until I can get polymorph active?

[DMVerdandi]

Once you have access to HEROICS (Spell level 2), you can obtain a fighter feat for every casting, which lasts 10/mins per level. That is a good one, especially if you use them to obtain TOB maneuvers.

Add in flame dagger for touch attacks.
Throw on mage armor and false life.

It's just going to be limited. The higher you are in level, the better you can play a fighter. In the beginning, the amount of spell slots that you have kind of limits it, as well as the spell durations based on caster level.

It becomes cheaper and easier as you move along, as many of the spells that can continue being useful forever can be made into items like eternal wands, and lesser schemas.

If the idea is to always be doing full attacks, though, that isn't how it works. It's really about the special attributes that the wizard spells can apply to weapons, as personal buffs, and as de-buffs. It becomes increasingly far easier to hit as a wizard than necessarily for a fighter. As seen they can obtain touch attacks quite easily, and very early.
Add in power attack, And the damage potential goes up. Add in spells that create hovering weapons that continue to do damage, and it increases further. Add in spells like haste and it goes further, and eventually getting to abjurant champion.

At the end game, a wizard who really WANTS to outclass a fighter without casting tricky spells, and just wants to brawl can get there.

[aleucard]

There's also the method of summoning/Commanding/etc.'ing various flavors of mob and/or NPC that will do the job nicely. Few melee types are improved that much by 2 levels in the case of the cohort methods, and few summons DON'T have something extra they can do besides be the party beefcake.

[Bryconium]

You could be a conjurer and trade your familiar for abrupt jaunt in PHB2 and use the spell stone fist, which gives you decent damage and survivability at low levels. This should remain effective till around level 4 or so, when you start to fall behind in damage and number of attacks, though with alter self and wraith strike you should still be able to hold your own in combat. Once you hit level 7 and get polymorph though, its all over.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ok, cool. So I'm asking because I'm potentially going to actually try to make this work...is it feasible to make the animal companion keep up until I can get polymorph active?

As long as you're buffing it properly it should work fine throughout your career. Polymorph can be applied to the little guy too.

Though you really should decide fairly early if you're going to be a minion master or a gish. The feat and prestige class choices you'll want to make for either of those is more than a little different than the one's you'd make for the other.

[Flickerdart]

I had a whole list specced out for a wizard who does nothing but cast spells that create magic flying weapons and then bludgeon his opponents to death with them. There are spells as early as level 1 that do this, but things take off at later levels when you can abuse Sonorous Hum.

[Fax Celestis]

Once you have access to HEROICS (Spell level 2), you can obtain a fighter feat for every casting, which lasts 10/mins per level. That is a good one, especially if you use them to obtain TOB maneuvers.

Due to the "Same Source, Differing Results" clause on magic, this doesn't work.


Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

[questionmark693]

Thanks for the help guys :) its a PF game, sorry for not being clear. I'm going to use a summoner that crafts, and focus on making my summons good :)

[TheCrowing1432]

Wizards are better at summoning beatsticks then being one.

Even the riding dog trick its your companion doing it, not you.

[Red Fel]

Wizards are better at summoning beatsticks then being one.

Shapechange (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shapechange) exists in PF, too. As do the spells it calls out.

[Nightcanon]

Wizards are better at summoning beatsticks then being one.

Even the riding dog trick its your companion doing it, not you.

True, but (outside the specific context of this thread), the issue isn't that a Wizard can personally and at all levels outperform each non-tier 1 class at doing their thing, but that a Wizard can make their thing (whether it is tanking or trapsmithing or climbing or dealing damage) obsolete. In the context of this thread, it is being pointed out that, while a Fighter's whole thing is fighting, a Wizard can select a superior fighter (in the shape of an Animal Companion) as a class feature.

[Dalebert]

You'll fight pretty well at 1st level playing a Foresight specialist (Divination variation). They can make an extra roll many times a day which can be used to give you an extra roll for attacks. That beats the Hell out of +1 BAB. Have scrolls of shield and keep one in hand. You'll always get to act in the surprise round with foresight in order to cast it. If you're not expecting the game to go into high levels, consider giving up a couple points of Int to bump Con and Dex. Not sure it's worth it at later levels though.

[TheCrowing1432]

The wizard already plays "Everything you can do, I can do better" with virtually every class in the game as it is, and fighters are one of the worst classes in the game.

Its hardly fair asking if its possible to emulate it.


Hell to step this up, I want a wizard to emulate a Swordsage or Crusader from Tome of Battle. Not a rinky dink Fighter from PHB.

Lets see some maneuver imitations going on.

[Troacctid]

The wizard already plays "Everything you can do, I can do better" with virtually every class in the game as it is, and fighters are one of the worst classes in the game.

Its hardly fair asking if its possible to emulate it.


Hell to step this up, I want a wizard to emulate a Swordsage or Crusader from Tome of Battle. Not a rinky dink Fighter from PHB.

Lets see some maneuver imitations going on.

Heroics for Martial Study.

Next question please.

[Red Fel]

Seriously, though. Tome of Battle improved melees by giving them special abilities beyond simply full attack, trip, and disarm. It's called "Blade Magic," and often derided as "spellcasting for non-spellcasters." People who look down on it accuse it of being a pale imitation of what a spellcaster can do with one hand and his eyes closed.

... And you're asking whether a Wizard can do that?

[TheCrowing1432]

...uh.

I suppose it would be easier to ask

Is there anything a wizard CANT do?

[Kelb_Panthera]

...uh.

I suppose it would be easier to ask

Is there anything a wizard CANT do?

In a word: no.

[aleucard]

In a word: no.

Assuming you have enough advance warning or only need a single spell slot to do it, of course. Granted, what counts as 'enough' may vary from one table to the next, but as long as you've been updating your spellbook properly, that should be at most 24 hours, or even less with some creative use of whatever you have prepared that day. The real benefit of a caster is being able to Rube Goldberg your way through anything, after all.

[Lans]

Due to the "Same Source, Differing Results" clause on magic, this doesn't work.

That says
Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others.

So it might work

[aleucard]

That says

So it might work

That sounds the kind of dubious that would allow Wish Loops to work. Few DM's are insane enough to allow such a thing more than once in their careers as DM, and those that do are going to be returning fire.

[Curmudgeon]

If you look at the actual stacking rules in Player's Handbook (pages 171-172) rather than the hopelessly truncated SRD versions, you'll see that the prohibition is on stacking magical effects rather than stacking spells. So if your castings of Heroics each produce a different effect (different feat), and you qualify for each feat as you cast the spell, these castings will stack.

[aleucard]

If you look at the actual stacking rules in Player's Handbook (pages 171-172) rather than the hopelessly truncated SRD versions, you'll see that the prohibition is on stacking magical effects rather than stacking spells. So if your castings of Heroics each produce a different effect (different feat), and you qualify for each feat as you cast the spell, these castings will stack.

Just because it's 100% objectively rules-legal doesn't mean that it's completely absurdly powerful. The only restrictions on this is the time limit and needing to burn a spell slot to make use of each individual feat. The level of contrivance required to make a person with a CL at or greater than 12 run out before the end of the mission on every major mission is beyond sensibility, and due to it being a Lv. 2 spell, higher level casters are going to be otherwise short on major things to do with those spell slots anyway so dropping 8 or so on this alone isn't as much of a cost as you'd think. If a restriction on how many simultaneous castings could be used were implemented (for example, 1 iteration/5 CL, or 1 iteration/spell level with a built-in Heightening mechanic), it'd be much better.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't see this (stacking Heroics castings) as being abusive. The whole point is the Wizard is trying to use their class resources (spells) to emulate the Fighter's class resources (BAB, proficiencies, Fighter Bonus Feats). So let's see what it takes to make them a melee combatant, more or less like a Fighter. I'll pick one FBF feat tree for example purposes; it could be any other.

Mage Armor
Shield
Heroics: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)
Bull's Strength
Heroics: Power Attack
Heroics: Cleave
Heroics: Great Cleave

The Wizard is still limited to ½ BAB, meaning their Power Attack is only half as good as the Fighter's. Most of these are encounter-duration spells, so the Wizard would need to spend additional time at the start of every encounter to get ready. The Wizard normally has only 4 2nd-level spell slots for the day (5 for a specialist); INT of up to 21 gives them only a single bonus there. Four daily encounters is going to leave the Wizard spamming Heroics running on empty.

[Fax Celestis]

If you look at the actual stacking rules in Player's Handbook (pages 171-172) rather than the hopelessly truncated SRD versions, you'll see that the prohibition is on stacking magical effects rather than stacking spells. So if your castings of Heroics each produce a different effect (different feat), and you qualify for each feat as you cast the spell, these castings will stack.

So you're of the mind then that energy immunity (fire) followed by energy immunity (electricity) provides immunity to both fire and electricity, despite the SRD rules on stacking effects explicitly stating:
Same Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.?

[Curmudgeon]

So you're of the mind then that energy immunity (fire) followed by energy immunity (electricity) provides immunity to both fire and electricity Absolutely.

despite the SRD rules on stacking effects explicitly stating: ?
If you read the primary source there (Player's Handbook, page 172) you'll realize that different energy types are independent, not differing (as a creature's form must be, because it can only have one at a time). The SRD on combining magical effects is quite misleading, so I always go with the primary source (as the Primary Source Errata Rule requires anyway).

[Zubrowka74]

Shapechange (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shapechange) exists in PF, too. As do the spells it calls out.

It took a heavy hit from the nerf bat. No healing. Specific boosts to attributes depending on the size, which is limited of course. And special abilities / attacks are picked from a set list. No wish granting or whatever. So to melee you need to have a frame for it, otherwise you low STR won't outshine the fighting classes.

[Oko and Qailee]

Trying to use minimal resources and make the wizard the fighter.

At level 1.
Enlarge Person. Shield. Mage Armor.
You and your familiar can go to town.

[Ssalarn]

I read the thread title and immediately thought of the "swatting beehives with nuclear weapons thread".

While I can't recall a lot of instances in 3.5 where I was particularly interested in playing a wizard who got his hands dirty, I know that there were several fun ways to get all martial in Pathfinder:
Wizard (Spellslinger)/Gunslinger/Eldritch Knight - you get guns right from first level, good BAB, and decent AC even before your buffs are counted in. Orc/Dragon/Abyssal Bloodline Sorcerer. In particular, I like the Orc Bloodline Sorcerer. You cast a bunch of buffs, increase to size large, pick up the Quicken Spell-like Ability feat so you can slap on up to a +10 to attack, damage, and Will saves as a swift action, and then wrap it all up by casting transformation when you're ready to beat face. It helps that he's got lots of good "Fighter" feats as Bloodline feats, and if you use an actual half-orc, you're proficient with the falchion and greataxe as well, letting you do your thing from first level. Wizard with the Divination (Foresight) School - lots of rerolls right from first level means you can compete in combat until you have enough spells to save those rerolls for other things. Helpful to choose a race that gets a decent weapon, like elves or half-orcs, but a good trait works too. Wizard (Scrollmaster) - starting at 1st level, treat your scrolls as masterwork swords and shields! At 3rd level, this kicks up to magic swords and shields.