Removing Class Levels

[torrasque666]

Is there any RAW way to completely remove a class level? I know negative levels don't actually do it, they just impose a penalty on the character in question. I'm looking for a way to permanently remove class levels and HD, or does the line about failing the saving throw reducing level by one actually reduce hit die as well?

Basically, I want to play the psychic sandwich, or more accurately psychic armor, at ECL 11.

[Venger]

Is there any RAW way to completely remove a class level? I know negative levels don't actually do it, they just impose a penalty on the character in question. I'm looking for a way to permanently remove class levels and HD, or does the line about failing the saving throw reducing level by one actually reduce hit die as well?

Basically, I want to play the psychic sandwich, or more accurately psychic armor, at ECL 11.

huh?

negative levels totally remove your class levels after the 24 hour duration's passed. the process of knocking a couple levels off yourself for Reasons is known as "Do[ing] the Wight Thing"

just have a wight in a controlled environment, make him touch you till you lose the specified amount of levels, fail your saves, and boom, you're at whatever level it was you wanted.

[torrasque666]

This reeks of gouda, but I am now tempted to run this past my DM to see if he'd approve it.

[Venger]

This reeks of gouda, but I am now tempted to run this past my DM to see if he'd approve it.

of course. it's a famous very far-flung TO trick. but if you're using it to willingly make yourself less powerful, he shouldn't care.

[Phelix-Mu]

If all you want is a self-nerf, I'd probably just allow the character to inflict brain/soul damage on themselves, and skip the silliness with the wight.

Also, certain weapons inflict negative levels while you hold them. I think it's the temporary kind, but maybe the DM would be open to you finding a cursed item of some kind. Or maybe one of those unusual greater bestow curses; I think they were outlined in BoVD.

Anyway, as venger says, this should only be a real concern for the DM if it is the secret route to even more power. If that's the case, you might want to let him/her know about the trick first. Or bring a crash helmet to the session where your evil plan comes together.:smallsmile:

[Tohsaka Rin]

If you have access to Unearthed Arcana, ask your DM about using the optional rules for retraining.

That's a very nice option, that keeps players from having to worry too much about making 100% optimal choices.

[Phelix-Mu]

If you have access to Unearthed Arcana, ask your DM about using the optional rules for retraining.

That's a very nice option, that keeps players from having to worry too much about making 100% optimal choices.

Wait...are there rules in UA for that too? The only ones that I am familiar with are the ones in PHB2, and they leave something to be desired in several areas.

[Venger]

Wait...are there rules in UA for that too? The only ones that I am familiar with are the ones in PHB2, and they leave something to be desired in several areas.

PHB2 doesn't let you retrain class levels.

[Phelix-Mu]

PHB2 doesn't let you retrain class levels.

But there are rules in UA that do? I confess I haven't read the entirety of UA, and generally only permit it upon request, but might have to go back digging if there is something useful like this.

[Venger]

But there are rules in UA that do? I confess I haven't read the entirety of UA, and generally only permit it upon request, but might have to go back digging if there is something useful like this.

Not that I know of. I've only read UA in its entirety a couple of times, but my recall isn't perfect. A quick runthrough of its table of contents doesn't show anything about rebuilding/retraining and all the class/xp stuff is unrelated.

people often just assume that since PHB2's retraining is a variant that applies to the system as a whole rather than just one class like an ACF, that it's from UA, so that's probably what happened.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Ugh, I have a wicked-bad migraine tonight, I was sure class retraining was in UA.

I'll dig through some more books, and see if I can find where it actually is. Heck, it might even be in UA, and I'm just not seeing it.

[Phelix-Mu]

Fair enough.

I also tend to be generous with rebuilds, provided that the character has some kind of in-character justification for it and jumps through a few role play hoops. People aren't always aware of how a build will pan out in actual play, and party dynamic often changes as well, so it can really pay off to be a bit flexible in this regard.

In my view, Incarnation #5 of a veteran character is better than Character Replacement #5.

Not sure a rebuild will work for this trick, though, as it seems to be rather more nuanced than most rebuilds entail.

[Venger]

Ugh, I have a wicked-bad migraine tonight, I was sure class retraining was in UA.

I'll dig through some more books, and see if I can find where it actually is. Heck, it might even be in UA, and I'm just not seeing it.

no problem, it's how we learn stuff. it's in PHB2 on page 192 to save you a little time.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Found it! Page 197/198 PHB2, class level rebuilding.

It allows you to go on a quest, then swap some existing levels for another class. Not exactly removing, per-se, but better than nothing.

[Venger]

Found it! Page 197/198 PHB2, class level rebuilding.

It allows you to go on a quest, then swap some existing levels for another class. Not exactly removing, per-se, but better than nothing.

that sounds promising.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Yeah, migraines scramble my memory something fierce, so it's no wonder I couldn't remember where the rules were.

Hope this helps you, torrasque666, many bothans di- errr, playgrounders were slightly inconvenienced to acquire this information.

Though it's probably nice for some people, who didn't know/couldn't find the info. A character saved, is four hours not wasted rolling up a new one, right?

[Phelix-Mu]

Hehe, yeah, that's what I was referring to. It's definitely more flavorful and functional for a real game than "Do the Wight Thing," which would tend to elicit thrown books around my table (though not necessarily from me).

From experience, a good quest, religious awakening, or plain old Cruel Tutelage of Pai Mei are all really flavorful, especially if you can manage to drag the rest of the party along for at least part of the ride. Otherwise, consider handling the rebuild in a one-on-one aside, encouraging role play and having an in-character feel for why all the effort at changing focus. Work developing motives, raison d'etre, and methodology generally pays off in spades when I've done it.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Don't forget vision quests.

You could have an entire grand adventure, without ever leaving a sweat lodge.

"How long were we out for?"

'About two hours.'

"Ok, wow."

And that's usually not even a full session, for most groups. Best way to non-interrupt the plot, ever.

[Phelix-Mu]

Don't forget vision quests.

You could have an entire grand adventure, without ever leaving a sweat lodge.

"How long were we out for?"

'About two hours.'

"Ok, wow."

And that's usually not even a full session, for most groups. Best way to non-interrupt the plot, ever.

Yeah, I actually had something happen like this in a dream quest for one of my players. His exalted ranger/Lion of Talisid was becoming a cleric, so I had a good goddess of winter (Hleid, from Frostburn) approach him in a dream sequence. Really memorable stuff, probably one of the best bits of one-on-one role play I've had the privilege of being a party to.

[prufock]

Is there any RAW way to completely remove a class level?

Death, followed by raise dead.