Building a gestalt character with some ridiculously high stats to play with.

[Curunir471]

Hello Playgrounders, I hope to find you well.

So here's the skinny, I am building my first gestalt character ever, the party will be just 2 characters at sixth level, the other character will be a (divine caster)//Samurai 2/Fighter2/Warblade2. I happened to be blessed by the dice gods on stat generation, base stats before race are as follows
Str 18
Dex 18
Con 18
Int 18
Wis 16
Cha 18

The DM couldn't believe it (he watched me roll them right in front of his face) his only response was "I hate you" to which I laughed really hard. Starting gold is 26,000(double standard 6th level).

The overall goal of the character is to play a sorcerer whose armor class is essentially untouchable, I was planning on using the battle dancer class as well as the War Mage class from Age of Mortals to use charisma for my main AC, using paladin of freedom for divine grace. This character will need to be able to act as a "rogue" in that he can check for traps and open locks (I'm working on a backstory to explain the PoF and rogue levels, maybe he had multiple personality disorder or something). (FYI, not a fan of factorum)

Relevant house rules: Once a class skill, always a class skill. All official books allowed on a case by case basis. Trying to avoid homebrew, but if its awesome I'll try to talk my way into it. The game is on Friday so I have plenty of time to prepare.

I would love the assistance of some people who have used the gestalt system/ know their way around a source book.

Thanks, Curunir.

[Red Fel]

First off, several key rules of gestalt: Ability score synergies. Now, it sounds like you want a lot of Cha synergies (Sorcerer casting, PoF Divine Grace, etc.) so you seem to get this idea. Keep it in mind, however, when choosing classes. Basic class synergies. It's very helpful to pair a class with powerful class features (e.g. spellcasting) but poor class chassis (e.g. BAB and saves) with a class that has powerful class chassis (e.g. BAB and saves). Pairing Paladin with Sorcerer (e.g. Sorcadin) is a good start. Keep this in mind as well. Active versus passive synergies. This one is key. The action economy limits what you can do in a given turn. Many people fall into the trap of pairing two classes with powerful active abilities, forgetting this key fact. What you want are classes that lend both passive benefits (such as Divine Grace and buffs) and active powers (such as Smite Evil and offensive spells). Many gestalt players refer to this as the "active side" and "passive side" of the build, although any given "side" of the build does not have to be solely one or the other.
So, where does this leave you? Well, one of the easiest strategies is to look at the X Stat to Y Bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus) thread. Pick one or two stats, and weaponize them.

Since you mention you want to be untouchable, I would suggest focusing on Dex as well as Cha. (Not that your build particularly needs to focus; your stats are awesome.) The thing to remember is that AC drops off in utility, and your Battledancer Cha-to-AC only applies when unarmored anyway. You need to juice up your touch AC, which tends to be far more useful. (Miss chance would be great, too.) Taking feats that focus on your Dex will really help you. You might also consider dipping Whirling Frenzy Barbarian for this purpose - being able to grab a Dodge bonus will help your touch AC as well as your regular AC.

[Curunir471]

@Red Fel

Are there any good combinations that you can think of to increase survivability? This DM likes to run 5/6 encounters without letting us rest.

Would I want to go 2-handed weapon or just stick with the punching power of the Battle Dancer?

I have been looking at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus but it can be a bit overwhelming.

Do you have any recommendations on race? I like the Lesser Aasimar from PGtF for its darkvision and +2 wis +2 cha. Do you know any that have a better set up?

Thanks for responding so quickly, it is greatly appreciated.

[Necroticplague]

A short dip in the Ghost savage progression gives your CHA as a deflection bonus to AC, so you can go higher on your AC. In addition, a monk dip and the feat Ascetic Mage turns the monk's AC bonus into being CHA based, so combined with the Battledancer you mentioned, you have CHA to AC 3 times. Plus, being a ghost means you have access to the Evolved template, which both increases the deflection bonus by one, and increases your charisma by two (which, in this case, would give you +3 AC). So each level you're willing to give up to Evolved would give you 4 more AC. The Spark template gives a bonus to CHA, but penalty to CON. However, a ghost wouldn't have a CON, making that irrelevant. Being a ghost also opens up access to Ghost feats, from ghostwalk. This includes some useful gems like at-will negative energy touch.

[Curunir471]

A short dip in the Ghost savage progression gives your CHA as a deflection bonus to AC, so you can go higher on your AC. In addition, a monk dip and the feat Ascetic Mage turns the monk's AC bonus into being CHA based, so combined with the Battledancer you mentioned, you have CHA to AC 3 times. Plus, being a ghost means you have access to the Evolved template, which both increases the deflection bonus by one, and increases your charisma by two (which, in this case, would give you +3 AC). So each level you're willing to give up to Evolved would give you 4 more AC. The Spark template gives a bonus to CHA, but penalty to CON. However, a ghost wouldn't have a CON, making that irrelevant. Being a ghost also opens up access to Ghost feats, from ghostwalk. This includes some useful gems like at-will negative energy touch.

This DM is a huge fan of using evil clerics against us, can't tell you how many times I've been blinded by him. So being an undead is not a good idea.

Do you happen to know the LA's of those templates off hand?

[Sartharina]

A short dip in the Ghost savage progressionYou can't 'dip' into Savage Progressions.


But from those stats... I suggest going Paladin on one side for excellent saves, full BAB, and d10 HD. Or Crusader. Or Paladin/Crusader for full awesome CHA Powerhouse Synergy.

Wait.. you need to be a Skillmonkey.

The way to balance being a Rogue/Paladin is to read "Complete Scoundrel", and look at the Chaotic Good and Lawful Good scoundrel types.

[Red Fel]

Are there any good combinations that you can think of to increase survivability? This DM likes to run 5/6 encounters without letting us rest.

This is actually two separate questions. I'll address them separately.

First: Survivability is not a function of AC. AC is simply how hard it is to hit you. When going into combat encounters, particularly in a gestalt campaign (where it's safe to assume the DM has increased the difficulty to match the PCs' increased power), assume that you will be hit. The question of survivability, then, isn't how to mitigate those hits, but how to prevent them. Prevention comes in three flavors: Mobility, Control, and Demolition. Mobility is your ability to move freely around the battlefield, to get out of danger if you're in it, and to get yourself into opportune position for quick kills. Control is your ability to control the battlefield, including buffing allies, debuffing enemies, and in some cases sculpting the combat zone into a scene that is to your advantage. Demolition is your ability to reduce enemies to a fine red mist, or less. Decide in advance which of these is the angle you wish to pursue.

Second: Withstanding 5-6 encounters. That's slightly more encounters per day than the usual, and with only one other character on the field, it's going to be tough. What you want are abilities that are either (1) passive, such as a strong BAB and buffs thereto, or (2) reusable, such as ToB maneuvers. Spells should be considered primarily as buffs and BFC, and should be carefully horded. Persisting spells will be incredibly valuable to you.


Would I want to go 2-handed weapon or just stick with the punching power of the Battle Dancer?

I find that having an unarmed strike progression is only good if you plan to progress. Put differently, unless you plan to take many levels of Battle Dancer, or the Superior Unarmed Strike feat, I'd switch to a weapon. If you do stay with unarmed strikes, be sure to grab a Necklace of Natural Weapons, so that you can enhance your fists as you would a weapon.


I have been looking at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus but it can be a bit overwhelming.

The trick is to look at one category at a time. For example, look just at the Charisma section. Look through each of the items Charisma can benefit. Eliminate any sources you aren't using. Then walk through and decide if they're worth it. For example, Ascetic Mage allows you to change a Monk AC bonus from Wis to Cha, and also allows some other useful overlaps of Monk and Sorc. But if you're going Battle Dancer, it's a moot point. The Bow of Song gives some useful benefits, but it also requires Bardic music, so it's probably no good for you. Walk through and eliminate; when you've narrowed the list, determine whether you can fit them into a build.


Do you have any recommendations on race? I like the Lesser Aasimar from PGtF for its darkvision and +2 wis +2 cha. Do you know any that have a better set up?

Lesser Aasimar is a nice choice, if your DM is willing to allow it. If not, take a look over here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1281.0) to see a fairly comprehensive list of LA +0 races and their sources. For example, a Lesser Celadrin is nice; +2 Dex, +2 Cha, but -2 Con, darkvision, fire resistance, Elvish sleep immunity, weapon proficiencies and door searching, bonuses to Listen, Spot, Search, Perform (Song), and Diplomacy, and Scorching Ray 1/day. A Lesser Cansin gets +2 Int and Cha, fire and acid resistance, and Entropic Shield 1/day. A Lesser D'hin'ni gets +2 Dex and Cha, but -2 Wis, small size (with all that entails), +1 to all saves, at-will Prestidigitation, darkvision, racial skill bonuses, and a 1/day wind spell SLA of your choice. A Spirit Hellbred gets -2 Con, +2 Cha, Devil-touched feat, and cool senses (including, ultimately, Telepathy). He also gets a ton of great flavor.

There are also templates. For example, the ever-popular Magic-Blooded (Spark) template gives you -2 Wis, +2 Cha, makes Sorcerer your favored class, and grants you some SLAs. The Primordial Giant template (applicable only to Giants, alas) gives a huge boost to Int and Cha, as well as your choice of one of three at-will SLAs. The infamous Unseelie Fey template gives you -2 Str and Con, but +2 Dex and Cha, plus an array of useful abilities, including wings, a seasonal power, DR, and vision upgrades.

[Necroticplague]

You can't 'dip' into Savage Progressions.

Oh really? The rules beg to differ.

Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession. For example, a character who takes a level of wereboar could then take a level of fighter and a level of rogue (or any other combination of other class levels) before taking another level of wereboar. A character must still take the first level of wereboar before taking the second, just as with a normal class. It's perfectly valid to just take a level or two of ghost before going on to some different class.


This DM is a huge fan of using evil clerics against us, can't tell you how many times I've been blinded by him. So being an undead is not a good idea.

Do you happen to know the LA's of those templates off hand?
That can be easily dealt with by taking the Human Heritage feat, which would make you a Humanoid (and thus not subject to things that target the undead).

Yeah, I know the LAs

Ghost: Variable, depending on how far into the Template class you go. It can be between +1 to +5 (though pretty much nobody takes the fifth level).

Evolved:+1

[Rebel7284]

Sirene's Grace is a fun spell for a charisma focused character. Non-trivial to get on a sorcerer though.

I would probably go something like Sorcerer 5/Spelldancer 1 // Chaos Monk 1/Paladin of Freedom 2/Battledancer 1/X2

[Curunir471]

@ Red Fel
Demolition sounds like my cup of tea with a dash of mobility and control. It's just a dip into Battle Dancer, just one level, so I'll definitely pick up a weapon, I'm in white plume mountain and the loot in that in 3.5 is three legacy weapons, a warhammer, a trident, and a greatsword(I'm assuming this is the best of the three).

Thanks for the advice on X to Y, it's much more manageable now.

I'll definitely look into the other lesser planetouched races as well, thanks for pointing out some of the better ones.

@Necroticplague

I find it kind of funny that your recommendations are for undead, it just fits with your name, pretty cool.

I really don't like the idea of not being alive, most of my characters are hunting for eternal life, not undeath, thanks for replying though, I never knew how good the ghost template was, it's rediculous.

[Curunir471]

Sirene's Grace is a fun spell for a charisma focused character. Non-trivial to get on a sorcerer though.

I would probably go something like Sorcerer 5/Spelldancer 1 // Chaos Monk 1/Paladin of Freedom 2/Battledancer 1/X2

I might sub in ninja, or a monk's belt, for Chaos monk but that looks great. How much would an constant item of Sirene's grace cost?

[Sartharina]

Chaos Monk is CHA based, which is why he wants that one.

[Curunir471]

Chaos Monk is CHA based, which is why he wants that one.

I didn't know that the Chaos Monk's AC bonus was CHA based, that's a much better option now.

[Red Fel]

How much would an constant item of Sirene's grace cost?

Well, I tend to be terribad at custom magic item crafting, but here we go.

When creating magic items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm), the cost of a continuous use item is Spell Level x Caster Level x 2,000 gp. Further, if the spell has a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If it has a material component, add the value of the component into the price of each charge; if it is a continuous use item, treat it as if it had 100 charges.

Sirine's Grace is a 4th-level Bard spell or 5th-level Druid spell. Let's go with Bard, who can cast 4th-level spells at level 10. So the base price is 4 x 10 x 2,000, or 80,000. Next, we add the cost of 100 components; the component here is a shard of mirror. Let's say that that's the equivalent of a single small mirror, which is 10gp, so our current cost is 80,010. Now we quadruple it, because it's a continuous use item - that's 320,040 gp cost total.

I think I have that right. It looks outrageous, so I probably got it right.

[Curunir471]

Well, I tend to be terribad at custom magic item crafting, but here we go.

When creating magic items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm), the cost of a continuous use item is Spell Level x Caster Level x 2,000 gp. Further, if the spell has a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If it has a material component, add the value of the component into the price of each charge; if it is a continuous use item, treat it as if it had 100 charges.

Sirene's Grace is a 4th-level Bard spell or 5th-level Druid spell. Let's go with Bard, who can cast 4th-level spells at level 10. So the base price is 4 x 10 x 2,000, or 80,000. Next, we add the cost of 100 components; the component here is a shard of mirror. Let's say that that's the equivalent of a single small mirror, which is 10gp, so our current cost is 80,010. Now we quadruple it, because it's a continuous use item - that's 320,040 gp cost total.

I think I have that right. It looks outrageous, so I probably got it right.

Ouch, maybe not then.

[Necroticplague]

Ouch, maybe not then.

Actually, since the prince of the component is negligable, it doesn't have an effect on the price. In addition, It doesn't have to have a CL of 10, since CL only determines duration, so it could be a mere 32000 GP for a CL1 version. It would be really easy to dispel, but it would be a lot cheaper. For further savings, since it doesn't offer a save, you get a version of it effected by Sanctum Spell to make it a level 3 spell, combined with above trick for a 24000 GP item. In addition, making it so it only works for a certain alignment or class gives a 30% cost reduction, making it only a 16800 gp purchase.

[Red Fel]

Actually, since the prince of the component is negligable, it doesn't have an effect on the price. In addition, It doesn't have to have a CL of 10, since CL only determines duration, so it could be a mere 32000 GP for a CL1 version. It would be really easy to dispel, but it would be a lot cheaper. For further savings, since it doesn't offer a save, you get a version of it effected by Sanctum Spell to make it a level 3 spell, combined with above trick for a 24000 GP item. In addition, making it so it only works for a certain alignment or class gives a 30% cost reduction, making it only a 16800 gp purchase.

That said, some parts of the approach do involve a certain degree of cheese. For example, it's questionable as to whether you can cast a 4th-level spell with CL 1, it's tricky to claim it was modified by Sanctum Spell, and it's considered rather nasty to deliberately hunt down a user-restricted item. It's all RAW-possible, however, so a permissive DM might go along with it. But keep in mind that there's a lot of murky territory involved when you start designing magic items too specifically.

[Curunir471]

Actually, since the prince of the component is negligable, it doesn't have an effect on the price. In addition, It doesn't have to have a CL of 10, since CL only determines duration, so it could be a mere 32000 GP for a CL1 version. It would be really easy to dispel, but it would be a lot cheaper. For further savings, since it doesn't offer a save, you get a version of it effected by Sanctum Spell to make it a level 3 spell, combined with above trick for a 24000 GP item. In addition, making it so it only works for a certain alignment or class gives a 30% cost reduction, making it only a 16800 gp purchase.

Ooh, that's not so bad then, along with unseelie fey that means that I can swim underwater and fly over it too.

[Curunir471]

That said, some parts of the approach do involve a certain degree of cheese. For example, it's questionable as to whether you can cast a 4th-level spell with CL 1, it's tricky to claim it was modified by Sanctum Spell, and it's considered rather nasty to deliberately hunt down a user-restricted item. It's all RAW-possible, however, so a permissive DM might go along with it. But keep in mind that there's a lot of murky territory involved when you start designing magic items too specifically.

What if my cohort made it? Better?

[Red Fel]

What if my cohort made it? Better?

Your cohort is a level 10 Bard with Sanctum Spell, Craft Wondrous Item, Sirine's Grace, and the necessary materials and xp to do the crafting?

If not, you're still looking at an uphill battle. If so, you're in a slightly better position, although the DM is still at liberty to reject your request. Custom magic items are fairly DM discretionary, after all, and a continuous use item of Sirine's Grace is really, really potent.

[Rebel7284]

Enter prestige bard for a few levels and then use spelldancer to persist.

Much less cheesy in my opinion than custom items.

edit: Also realized you can't enter spelldancer until level 7 anyway.

This is where Factotum 1 would come in handy with the whole "all skills as class skills" thing, but alas, you don't like them.

[Curunir471]

Your cohort is a level 10 Bard with Sanctum Spell, Craft Wondrous Item, Sirine's Grace, and the necessary materials and xp to do the crafting?

If not, you're still looking at an uphill battle. If so, you're in a slightly better position, although the DM is still at liberty to reject your request. Custom magic items are fairly DM discretionary, after all, and a continuous use item of Sirine's Grace is really, really potent.

Not yet, but maybe eventually.

Edit: As a side note, does anyone have a working copy of this prc? http://www.heliodragon.com/index.php/d20/familiarist
It may or may not be different from the familiarist on these boards by http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?40060-EdroGrimshell (that I love by the way).