Falcata

[arkangel111]

I just finished a session with a group of mine that I DM for, all very low in the OP department. However the Magus wasted a feat on EWP Falcata, I say wasted because usually EWP is a waste of a feat. For those of you unfamiliar with the weapon:

Type: Exotic 1-Hand
Damage: 1d8
Crit: 19-20x3

After a nice crit with shocking grasp he obliterated the 9 hp goblin. I normally ignore the Exotic weapons entirely, and I was unaware of a weapon with good crit range and a good crit multiplier.

Anyways, is there a better way to get EWP, or a better weapon out there to get and abuse both a good crit range and a crit multiplier? or is the falcata a one of a kind? I am most interested in finding a 2-hand version of said weapon that is PFS legal but dual wielding these might make for a decent critfisher build.

I know fighter gets bonus feats which can be spent on EWP. There has to be some various archetypes, or racials that get it without losing out on decent class features.

Any thoughts?

[ArqArturo]

Half-Elves get Ancestral Arms. Basically they trade Adaptability (Skill Focus) with EWP at 1st level. Thus, making it more viable and getting something really useful over a feat that, honestly, is not that awesome (I do like SF, but I think a Magus doesn't really need it).

[Kurald Galain]

The Kensai is a magus archetype that gets a free EWP. If your DM doesn't use errata, then the Heirloom Weapon trait also works.

That said, for a magus the better weapon is a scimitar, because it crits on an 18+ (15+ with keen). Doing double damage on a shocking grasp is already going to drop most anything you hit with it, doing triple damage is overkill.

[Psyren]

Tengu are automatically proficient with falcata as it is a "swordlike weapon." They have decent magus stats. I agree with the folks saying just use scimitar however.

[Novawurmson]

Scimitar is also useful for Dervish Dance - one of the very few ways to get Dex to damage in Paizo-only Pathfinder.

[Ssalarn]

The Kensai is a magus archetype that gets a free EWP. If your DM doesn't use errata, then the Heirloom Weapon trait also works.

That said, for a magus the better weapon is a scimitar, because it crits on an 18+ (15+ with keen). Doing double damage on a shocking grasp is already going to drop most anything you hit with it, doing triple damage is overkill.

Not to mention the fact that spellstrike only uses the weapon's critical threat range not its multiplier. At first level the falcata is pretty awesome, but eventually that magus is going to lose out by not having a 15-20 crit weapon.

As a side note, falcata is pretty well known for being just about the only weapon that's actually mathematically worth spending the EWP feat on.

[Eldaran]

Doing double damage on a shocking grasp is already going to drop most anything you hit with it, doing triple damage is overkill.

They can't, Spellstrike is always 2x "This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier."

[grarrrg]

Anyways, is there a better way to get EWP, or a better weapon out there to get and abuse both a good crit range and a crit multiplier? or is the falcata a one of a kind? I am most interested in finding a 2-hand version of said weapon that is PFS legal but dual wielding these might make for a decent critfisher build.

As far as I am aware the Falcata is the _only_ weapon with improved Crit Range and Multiplier. Every other weapon gets one or the other (or neither).

It is a One-Handed weapon, so you can optionally Two-Hand it for 1.5 STR to damage, but base TWF penalties would be -4/-4. The only way to overcome these penalties is 11 levels of the Two-Weapon Warrior (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/two-weapon-warrior) archetype, which lets you treat One-Handers as Light when TWFing.

While it is a decent weapon, the fact that it's Exotic greatly limits it's actual usefulness.

[LurKing]

A cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/opalescent-white-pyramid-ioun-stone) is a real steal. For the low low price of just 1500 GP, you can treat any one exotic weapon as a martial weapon.

[ghanjrho]

A cracked opalescent white pyramid ioun stone (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/opalescent-white-pyramid-ioun-stone) is a real steal. For the low low price of just 1500 GP, you can treat any one exotic weapon as a martial weapon.

Some decent Heal checks and you can have it implanted, too.

[Sayt]

What you really want is a wayfinder, which doesn't require charisma checks to attune, if I recall?

[Arutema]

What you really want is a wayfinder, which doesn't require charisma checks to attune, if I recall?

It doesn't, but can be stolen unlike an implanted stone.

They're also generally associated with the Pathfinder Society organization, which may cause problems if you display it in areas where Pathfinders aren't welcome (such as most of the Mwangi expanse.)

[Feint's End]

As has been mentioned the Falcata is actually pretty bad compared to the much better scimitar.

Somebody mentioned that it is the only mathematically worthwhile weapon to get with EWP. Care to elaborate? The damage increase seems to be marginal at best.

[Drelua]

Somebody mentioned that it is the only mathematically worthwhile weapon to get with EWP. Care to elaborate? The damage increase seems to be marginal at best.

It wasn't me that said that, but the way I look at it is that a 20/x3 multiplier gets you the damage of two extra attacks one time in twenty, while 19-20/x2 gets you the damage of one extra attack two times in twenty. This doesn't account for the probability of confirming, but basically it means that, for example, a battleaxe and a longsword do the same damage on average. 19-20/x3 gets you the damage of two attacks two times in twenty, for a total of 4, while a scimitar gets you one attack 3 times in twenty, meaning the falcata is the better weapon in regards to crits. It essentially crits two thirds as often as the scimitar, but gets twice the benefit.

[Psyren]

It essentially crits two thirds as often as the scimitar, but gets twice the benefit.

In a straight weapon-to-weapon comparison this is true, but a build focusing on crits needs to consider the possibility of other things going off on a crit as well - e.g. burst weapons, spellstrike, steal ki, critical feats like Staggering Critical and the like. The more of those you factor in, the more valuable crit frequency becomes, even with a lower multiplier. Add that to the scimitar's greater ease of acquisition (martial as opposed to exotic) and it generally wins out.

Thus I would never recommend Falcata unless you were somehow getting EWP for free (e.g. Tengu or Half-Elf.)

[Ssalarn]

It wasn't me that said that, but the way I look at it is that a 20/x3 multiplier gets you the damage of two extra attacks one time in twenty, while 19-20/x2 gets you the damage of one extra attack two times in twenty. This doesn't account for the probability of confirming, but basically it means that, for example, a battleaxe and a longsword do the same damage on average. 19-20/x3 gets you the damage of two attacks two times in twenty, for a total of 4, while a scimitar gets you one attack 3 times in twenty, meaning the falcata is the better weapon in regards to crits. It essentially crits two thirds as often as the scimitar, but gets twice the benefit.

There was a really good chart that actually laid it out over on the Paizo forums that I'm having trouble locating now, but basically this. Your Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat is basically buying you an "Increased Critical Multiplier" for your longsword something you can't really get anywhere else in Pathfinder, certainly not from a prereq-less feat you can snag at any level. Say a 4th level Fighter is dealing 1d8+12 (+5 STR, +1 weapon, +4 PA, +2 Weapon Specialization). A Longsword crits twice per 20 for a total of 2 extra attacks worth of damage, giving him an average damage of 18.15 (basically 18 damage) per hit. The Falcata crits twice in the same range for a total of 4 extra attacks, using EWP instead of WS for 1d8+10 makes your average damage 17.4 per hit. So at 4th level, you're slightly less out of EWP (falcata) as out of Weapon Specialization but that bonus from EWP will actually scale over time.

Say you're a 16th level fighter now and you deal 2d6 + 33 on a normal hit (+9 STR, +3 weapon training, +2 gloves of dueling, +5 weapon, +10 PA, +4 GWS). You've got Improved crit now and enough feats that you can apply all the same bonuses to both weapons, so your longsword crits give you essentially 4 extra attacks per sequence for an average damage of 48 per hit. The falcata gives you 8 extra attacks per sequence though, meaning your average damage is 56, a full 8 points higher than the longsword user.

Note: That is really simplified math just meant to convey the point of the falcata being worth the EWP feat real quick. The numbers don't account for critical confirmation or natural 1's, but assuming those factors as equal the spread stays the same between the falcata and the longsword.

To re-emphasize something I said earlier though, while the falcata is generally worth the feat, the Magus does not determine his damage off his static multipliers and base die like the Fighter, but instead wants to multiply his spell damage dice, which always go off at x2 on a crit regardless of weapon multiplier. This means he wants a weapon like the rapier or scimitar that will net him more crits, rather than one that balances between crit range and crit multiplier like the falcata. So if you're playing a Two-Weapon Warrior Fighter, or a sword and board combatant, falcata is the only EW worth spending a feat on, but you have to be looking at a build that actually relies on those static modifiers that are multiplied on a crit, rather than a build that delivers bonus damage dice or relies heavily on crit-activated debuffs.

[Psyren]

As I mentioned above, I don't think it's worth it because that feat is just buying you parity with a scimitar. You do slightly more weapon damage, yes, but once you factor in literally anything that triggers on a crit then the scimitar's greater frequency starts to win the dps and utility race, and it doesn't cost most martial classes an extra feat.

The Falcata may be one of the best exotics, but that's like being one of the best snowboarders in Haiti.

[Ssalarn]

As I mentioned above, I don't think it's worth it because that feat is just buying you parity with a scimitar. You do slightly more weapon damage, yes, but once you factor in literally anything that triggers on a crit then the scimitar's greater frequency starts to win the dps and utility race, and it doesn't cost most martial classes an extra feat.

The Falcata may be one of the best exotics, but that's like being one of the best snowboarders in Haiti.

That made me think of that old Disney move "Cool Runnings" (I think) with the Jamaican bobsled team. :smalltongue:
It really depends on what level you're looking at and what class you're considering. For the Fighter, the falcata surpasses the scimitar in the latter half of the game, but then drops back into parity at 20 when Weapon Mastery brings auto-crit confirmations online. For the Magus, there's no level where the falcata is better, because it only takes one crit-enhanced shocking grasp to completely skew the numbers towards the higher range weapon. As I recall, the falcata is also better for classes who can stack on lots of damage buffs but have a low likelihood of confirming their iteratives, like the Inquisitor, but I'm pulling that out of a half-remembered thread from like a year ago.

[Drelua]

I do agree that there's other factors that diminish the falcata's value; I never bother with it myself, I just think it's a pretty good weapon for DPR characters that aren't really focused on crits, like barbarians, if they're using one-handed weapons for some reason. I'm just not sure it's worth a feat, so most of my characters use reach weapons or a Nodachi. Now, if there was a two-handed equivalent to a falcata, I might take that. Maybe I could give a Titan Mauler Barbarian a large falcata, but I'd probably rather save up for a huge-sized Sun Sword just to wield the biggest weapon possible.

[Extra Anchovies]

It's worth noting that the Falcata may be somewhat less than optimal for its cost (ioun stones excepted, of course), it can still be a lot of fun for someone who likes triple-damage criticals but doesn't like only getting them on natural 20s.


That made me think of that old Disney move "Cool Runnings" (I think) with the Jamaican bobsled team. :smalltongue:

Feel the rhythm/Feel the rhyme/Get on up/It's bobsled time

COOL RUNNINGS!

Sorry, I have to say that whenever someone mentions that film. One of my favorites.

[Chronos]

Quoth Drelula:

This doesn't account for the probability of confirming, but basically it means that, for example, a battleaxe and a longsword do the same damage on average.
Actually, it does account for the probability of confirming. A x2 crit is worth as much as one extra attack, not as much as one extra hit. The value of an extra attack includes a factor of the probability of a hit, which (under normal circumstances) is the same as the probability of a confirmation.

[Snowbluff]

That's a good point ^

It wasn't me that said that, but the way I look at it is that a 20/x3 multiplier gets you the damage of two extra attacks one time in twenty, while 19-20/x2 gets you the damage of one extra attack two times in twenty. This doesn't account for the probability of confirming, but basically it means that, for example, a battleaxe and a longsword do the same damage on average. 19-20/x3 gets you the damage of two attacks two times in twenty, for a total of 4, while a scimitar gets you one attack 3 times in twenty, meaning the falcata is the better weapon in regards to crits. It essentially crits two thirds as often as the scimitar, but gets twice the benefit.


In a straight weapon-to-weapon comparison this is true, but a build focusing on crits needs to consider the possibility of other things going off on a crit as well - e.g. burst weapons, spellstrike, steal ki, critical feats like Staggering Critical and the like. The more of those you factor in, the more valuable crit frequency becomes, even with a lower multiplier. Add that to the scimitar's greater ease of acquisition (martial as opposed to exotic) and it generally wins out.

Thus I would never recommend Falcata unless you were somehow getting EWP for free (e.g. Tengu or Half-Elf.)
I concur. Scimitars are generally less "swingy" so I prefer them in general.

When you are looking at an Exotic weapon, you're looking for qualities, not quantities.

[T.G. Oskar]

The Falcata is still worthwhile if you have lots of static damage boosts and/or critical effects that increase based on critical multiplier.

For starters, the Falcata happens to be a one-handed weapon, so it can be wielded in two hands. Between a decent Strength modifier and Power Attack, that's a fairly high chance of tripling that additional damage. This also goes for the Bard's bonuses from Inspire Courage, the additional damage against a target marked by the Paladin, the extra damage from the Destruction Judgment from the Inquisitor, the weapon's enhancement bonus (and if using DSP content and Psionics, the Collision weapon property), other morale and insight bonuses to damage, and any additional boosts to damage. Dynamic damage, such as the Rogue's Sneak Attack or the Investigator's Studied Strike, isn't multiplied on a critical hit (save for the Magus, as mentioned), which makes this irrelevant for that kind of damage.

As for properties like Flaming Burst (based on a critical hit) and its other elemental counterparts, the boost to damage is compensated for the lower critical threat range, so the damage boost is not so notable. A Scimitar with Flaming Burst would deal an additional 5-6 points of damage on a critical hit, whereas a Falcata would do 11 points of damage on average; the Scimitar has 10% extra chances of landing a hit, with all other traits save for the weapon's inherent properties are otherwise equal and all critical threats are automatically confirmed. Assuming the Scimitar dealt the same damage as a Falcata (1d8, average 4.5), the Falcata deals about .45 additional points of damage per hit, of which .275 points are from the extra fire damage (Scim: 4.95 + 4.15 fire; Falc: 5.125 + 4.425 fire). Roughly speaking, the Falcata deals about 1 point additional damage every 2 successful hits, with a Flaming Burst Falcata dealing damage equivalent to one Scimitar swing every 20 hits, give or take. That doesn't include Strength or enhancement bonuses, of course. This may not seem like much (and you're free to correct my math), but it shows a slight improvement in damage for the Falcata even on an aspect where the Scimitar is otherwise competitive.

Kurald (implicitly) and Psyren (explicitly) mentioned the true value of the Scimitar (though I'd go for the Falchion, due to better damage ratio and being naturally two-handed): its larger critical threat range makes abilities that depend ONLY on a successful critical hit happen more, and those usually aren't damage-related; most, like the Critical feats, impose status effects which can hinder the target more than mere damage. You'd go for the Falcata mostly for one reason: it's the most effective TWF weapon, since the tactic for TWF is to land the most amount of hits with the most amount of damage on both weapons. On 2-handers, very few things really beat a Falchion in terms of simplicity and damage output, though the Fauchard is dangerously close (1d12, reach, two-handed, Exotic), making the Falcata's advantage somewhat lesser unless you can get massive bonuses to damage.

In short: the Falcata works well if you have huge static boosts to damage, particularly if you can wield them in each hand. Despite dealing the same damage as a Medium Scimitar, two Small Falcatas on a Halfling Two-Weapon Fighter with Power Attack AND Risky Striker against anything larger than Medium is just plain disgusting.

[Drelua]

Actually, it does account for the probability of confirming. A x2 crit is worth as much as one extra attack, not as much as one extra hit. The value of an extra attack includes a factor of the probability of a hit, which (under normal circumstances) is the same as the probability of a confirmation.

Well, when I said it doesn't account for probability of confirming, I was referring to the 'x times in 20' bit, though I guess if you refer to it as an extra attack rather than extra damage, it is accounted for. I'm not sure how that works for a x3 multiplier though, I guess you get one extra attack that does double damage. Unless, of course, you start carrying around oils of bless weapon or something. Bonuses to confirmation rolls probably skew that a little bit too.

Anyway, I was basically just saying that in terms pure damage with a one-handed weapon, for most characters, the falcata comes out on top with good damage and the best crit stats. Whether or not this is worth a feat is another question, although it is one that can be avoided if you get proficiency through some other means, like being a Tengu. Of course, that comes with a CON penalty, so it may not be worthwhile.

I would also like to point out that it's not entirely fair to compare EWP (falcata) to a feat that improves your crit multiplier, because that only works if you compare it directly to a longsword, which is just not your best option for a one-handed martial weapon. If there was such a feat that applied only to longswords, you'd have to consider the opportunity cost that comes with not being able to use as good of a weapon in the value of the feat.

Of course, you're better off just using a two-hander, like the Nodachi, which is slightly better than the falchion; .5 more damage on average, the brace property, and a slightly lower price tag give it a small edge. Plus, you get the advantage of using a weapon that properly reflects its name.:smalltongue:

[grarrrg]

As far as I am aware the Falcata is the _only_ weapon with improved Crit Range and Multiplier. Every other weapon gets one or the other (or neither).

There is (sort of) a second weapon with 19-20/x3.
Be a level 3 Card Caster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/card-caster-magus-archetype), and throw a "double matched" harrow card.

[Raven777]

There is (sort of) a second weapon with 19-20/x3.
Be a level 3 Card Caster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/card-caster-magus-archetype), and throw a "double matched" harrow card.

Ok. This is freaking cool. I need to make this sometime. And call her Sakura. Or call him Gambit.

[grarrrg]

Ok. This is freaking cool. I need to make this sometime. And call her Sakura. Or call him Gambit.
Yeah yeah, or Setzer, or...

We now return your to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?384280-Murder-with-Darts-That-are-cards-That-are-darts-%28Deadly-Dealer-Optimization%29).