Wild Magic

[Jlooney]

So if you roll a Nat 1 after casting a sorc spell you have a wild surge...

A player came to me and said he'd like a wild sure after EVERY spell, with no chance to not have one. For better or worse he thinks it would add a lot more flavor to his character. I told him that if that's what he would want that's fine, and in return i'd figure out a way to give him some bonus or buff to compensate for the fact that he can't just cast any spell any time due to the side effects it will incur. A possibility I was considering was the ability to know an additional cantrip or something similar to that.

I turn to you guys in your infinite wisdom to help me with a balancing reward for the drawback.

[Morukai]

So if you roll a Nat 1 after casting a sorc spell you have a wild surge...

A player came to me and said he'd like a wild sure after EVERY spell, with no chance to not have one. For better or worse he thinks it would add a lot more flavor to his character. I told him that if that's what he would want that's fine, and in return i'd figure out a way to give him some bonus or buff to compensate for the fact that he can't just cast any spell any time due to the side effects it will incur. A possibility I was considering was the ability to know an additional cantrip or something similar to that.

I turn to you guys in your infinite wisdom to help me with a balancing reward for the drawback.

Call me nuts, but I don't think it's a drawback at all. Wild Surge causes arguably more beneficial effects than negative ones.

That being the case, allowing it to happen after every spell, I think, is a bad idea for 2 reasons:

1. As mentioned, it's a net benefit, most of the time.

2. The whole point of it being "wild" is the random, chaotic aspect of it.

If anything, you could create a feat to make it happen more often, or trade off one of the class benefits, but I wouldn't have it happen after every spell. You could have something weird happen every spell (make your own table of harmless, minor "Prestidigitation-ish" effects) but the Wild Surges, I'd leave as they are.

Just my 2 cents.

[Totema]

There's already a way to get that effect, and that's to use the Tides of Chaos ability over and over. You get more out of it too.

[MaxWilson]

It's not necessarily a drawback. And he asked for this feature, so he doesn't see it as a drawback either. No cost, no bonus.

[Safety Sword]

In some previous editions the "power" of the spell had a random element to it. So perhaps the spell slot level could be altered when you cast a spell. This would give the appearance of a bit of randomness without adding extra effects to the spells. For this variation I would still leave in the chance for an actual Wild Surge too.

For instance, you cast a spell out of a 3rd level slot. You roll 1d6-3 and add that number to the spell slot when you determine the effect. This means that your spell could come out as a 1st level spell all the way up to a 6th level spell.

You can use whatever dice you think is appropriate, this is just an example.

For most spells this would vary the damage dice a little without totally destroying the encounter with unforeseen effects. It makes the damage unpredictable, but I guess that's the idea.

[Galen]

In some previous editions the "power" of the spell had a random element to it.A Fireball deals 8d6 damage. Sounds to me like the random element is already built in. Are you sure we need more randomness on top of that?

[Jlooney]

I understand what you mean by some being beneficial. The player has a penchant for trying to do all sorts of weird things. I may have to design my own wildsurge table, along with explain how he could get the same effect with ToC class feature. I just feel that he is digging for something more from the sorc. It is pretty much the same as the PF one (meaning that a bloodline affects all his abilities) and we just agreed that this might be the easiest. Any other ideas on what we could do to make him not a dragon sorc?

I already feel that the sorc is a little...meh. He really is worse than the wizard IMO. My party isn't an optimizing one, much to my dismay. I've also encouraged the PC's to come to me with something to define their characters a little more. Ideas are sorely needed.



I remember back in second edition about wildmages, but they could raise any spell 1d4 once per day as the bonus for this example of a 3rd level spell being able to drop to a 1st level. That may be a mechanic I look at. i'll play test it out to see what it does to my three planned encounters using the spells he picked.

[Galen]

I suggest saying no in this particular case. A Wild Surge that happens after every spell will overwhelm the game. Balance issues aside, you will soon find yourself not playing D&D at all. You will play "let's figure out what randomly happens this time" for 90% of the game session. Which is probably great for that particular player, but I assure you the other players will not appreciate this. And after the first few times, neither will you, as the DM. The only one who will enjoy this is the player in question, being in focus 90% of the time.

A Wild Surge is supposed to be something rare and unexpected. It wasn't made to be overwhelmingly ubiquitous.

[Safety Sword]

A Fireball deals 8d6 damage. Sounds to me like the random element is already built in. Are you sure we need more randomness on top of that?

I wouldn't be allowing Wild Surges on every spell.

Yes, the random element is already built in. However I think the intent is to add more randomness to your randomness.

If your fireball might be 5d6 or 11d6, that would sure do what is intended.

It will mess with the game. No doubt.

[Starsinger]

It's only 5% chance per spell above 1st level. A Sorcerer casting all 22 spell slots he gets at level 20 a day (not including anymore he purchases through sorcery points or any he trades in for points) has about a 32% chance of not getting a wild surge, IF he was allowed to roll every time.

[Perseus]

Kinda sounds like it will slow down game play.

[Morukai]

I understand what you mean by some being beneficial. The player has a penchant for trying to do all sorts of weird things. I may have to design my own wildsurge table, along with explain how he could get the same effect with ToC class feature. I just feel that he is digging for something more from the sorc. It is pretty much the same as the PF one (meaning that a bloodline affects all his abilities) and we just agreed that this might be the easiest. Any other ideas on what we could do to make him not a dragon sorc?

I already feel that the sorc is a little...meh. He really is worse than the wizard IMO. My party isn't an optimizing one, much to my dismay. I've also encouraged the PC's to come to me with something to define their characters a little more. Ideas are sorely needed.



I remember back in second edition about wildmages, but they could raise any spell 1d4 once per day as the bonus for this example of a 3rd level spell being able to drop to a 1st level. That may be a mechanic I look at. i'll play test it out to see what it does to my three planned encounters using the spells he picked.

Sorc isn't "worse" than wiz, just a different flavor. Wizards get more spell selection and can plan out their selection daily, whereas sorc. have to be more creative with what they have (and with metamagic, they can really be creative with some things). Sorcerers have less variation on daily spells, but more variation within the spells they DO cast.

I think as the Wild Magic bloodline progresses, it represents (or tries to) the sorcerer gaining more control over and tapping into the chaos more (as it should be). If your player wants to have a bunch of weird stuff happen, you could make your own table of harmless effects (as previously suggested).

If the player really wants to go spooky/weird stuff, they could multiclass with Warlock (especially GOO) - good stat synergy there, and the invocations would add to the sorc. repertoire. If the player went to at least 5th level as a "book" lock, they could get the ritual benefits too and increase their utility and versatility by quite a lot.

[Scirocco]

They should really just be rolling a d20 after every spell, not rolling on the table after every spell.

[Human Paragon 3]

How about just having it happen on a 1 or a 20? That's double the wild surges. Or let him roll a d10 instead of a d20 and call his shot.

[Safety Sword]

Or let him roll a d10 instead of a d20 and call his shot.

I'll admit to not having any idea what you mean with this. Care to explain?

[Kurald Galain]

You will play "let's figure out what randomly happens this time" for 90% of the game session. Which is probably great for that particular player, but I assure you the other players will not appreciate this.

I was going to say this as well. Having seen several wild mages in action in earlier editions (particularly 2E, with its level-1 "make a random effect" spell), I can only underline that such characters are great fun for that player and really not fun at all for the rest of the group.

[Jlooney]

You guys have some very good points. I guess i'll inform him of the general opinions from here and see what he wants to do about it. Everyone in my group loves 5th but they find it doesn't have enough customization as PF (which we just came from) and are trying to find ways to deepen their characters through mechanics

[Morukai]

You guys have some very good points. I guess i'll inform him of the general opinions from here and see what he wants to do about it. Everyone in my group loves 5th but they find it doesn't have enough customization as PF (which we just came from) and are trying to find ways to deepen their characters through mechanics

Understood... coming from the overly (IMO) customizable Pathfinder system to the much-simpler 5th edition is a bit of a shock in that regard.

Stick with it, you'll find that the game more effortlessly, while you can still customize... just not so much at the outset.

I think you'll like it if you guys just give it a few sessions. Play to the strengths of the newer system, you may be surprised at how smoothly it runs!

[Eslin]

Side note on the wild magic topic: what the hell's with the 'the dm can have you roll' aspect of things? No other abilities in the game have that clause - the DM could decide never to have you roll and you can't do anything about it. I mean not that the DM would, but even so it seems kind of stupid. It's like they didn't know how to balance it, so they shoved the effort off onto the DM instead. The DM has a game to run, they shouldn't have to manage an aspect of your character for you and have to work out how often it should happen to be balanced on the fly.

Anyone have any suggestions, alternate ways to run it? Or is there something I'm missing about it?


Understood... coming the overly (IMO) customizable Pathfinder system to the much-simpler 5th edition is a bit of a shock in that regard.
How can something be overly customisable? That's always a good thing, isn't it? I mean for the most part they didn't balance anything properly, but customisation by itself can't be a bad thing unless I'm missing something.

[Jlooney]

Understood... coming from the overly (IMO) customizable Pathfinder system to the much-simpler 5th edition is a bit of a shock in that regard.

Stick with it, you'll find that the game more effortlessly, while you can still customize... just not so much at the outset.

I think you'll like it if you guys just give it a few sessions. Play to the strengths of the newer system, you may be surprised at how smoothly it runs!

See I said the same thing cause I started in 2nd edition, but i'm still trying to do what they as a group want cause isn't that my job as the dm?

[Morukai]

How can something be overly customisable? That's always a good thing, isn't it? I mean for the most part they didn't balance anything properly, but customisation by itself can't be a bad thing unless I'm missing something.

It can really make a game sluggish due to adding layers of complexity, IMO. And, it can be hard on a DM to remember how everything ties together.

Ever hear of Rolemaster? That game was hella complex.

[Eslin]

It can really make a game sluggish due to adding layers of complexity, IMO. And, it can be hard on a DM to remember how everything ties together.

Ever hear of Rolemaster? That game was hella complex.

The DM doesn't have to remember any of it though. You make your character and run it, it isn't the DM's job. And complexity in character creation shouldn't equal complexity in gameplay - if the player is slowing things down, tell them to stop.

And no, what's Rolemaster about?

[Morukai]

See I said the same thing cause I started in 2nd edition, but i'm still trying to do what they as a group want cause isn't that my job as the dm?

The thing is, you guys can still add in all the descriptive flavor you can handle, it just doesn't necessary have to have a mechanical effect.

That's why I was suggesting the harmless effects (shower of sparks, a few frogs popping out of pockets, and such). It can still give the unique flavor of chaos-based magic, but it doesn't have to have a big effect on gameplay.

If you do it this way, though, you may want to encourage all the players to add unique characteristics to their characters and make them "their own." Maybe the fighter has an engraved sword with an interesting backstory (heirloom weapon?), or the rogue has a particular sort of flourish when they do their sneak attack, or the cleric drips beads of sweat while chanting a prayer to their diety, etc. Some of that is stereotypical,but you get the point- it can be as "customized" as you want it to be and not bog the game down mechanically. That's where I see 5e differing from 3.x or PF (or Rolemaster, as I previously mentioned)

[Morukai]

The DM doesn't have to remember any of it though. You make your character and run it, it isn't the DM's job. And complexity in character creation shouldn't equal complexity in gameplay - if the player is slowing things down, tell them to stop.

And no, what's Rolemaster about?

Rolemaster (aka "Rollmaster" or "Chartmaster") was (is?) an RPG that was exquisitely detailed and complex, with rolls/charts/rules for adjudicating the vast majority of conceivable scenarios- details and options for all kinds of things.

In my experience (from playing it for about a year), it slowed things down to a crawl. But man, were you super detailed!

But that's my point in the previous post- you can be super detailed and customized without necessarily bogging down mechanics. That seems to me to be one of 5e's strengths- plenty of flavor but simplified mechanics.

[Eslin]

So, can I get a response to the whole 'the DM decides' aspect of wild magic thing? It really does confuse me regarding how it's supposed to be run.

[INDYSTAR188]

How about just having it happen on a 1 or a 20? That's double the wild surges. Or let him roll a d10 instead of a d20 and call his shot.

I think this is reasonable and in future, if it comes up I will probably approach it this way.


I'll admit to not having any idea what you mean with this. Care to explain?

They're trying to say, "Pick a number randomly between 1 and 10, roll the d10 and see if you got it, if successful roll from the Wild Magic table."

[Morukai]

So, can I get a response to the whole 'the DM decides' aspect of wild magic thing? It really does confuse me regarding how it's supposed to be run.

I think that's their way of saying that the DM can limit how much it happens to keep things in check. Maybe in certain areas, where the barriers between planes are weak, it goes off a lot more often. Maybe in some areas, hardly at all. Maybe it goes off at an inopportune moment when the wizard is trying to keep a low profile. I think the DM (and party!) can have a lot of fun with that feature.

I see it as a "DM gets a chance to mess with the party, and as your reward, you get a recharge of the ability" thing.

I don't have any suggestions for alternatives.

[Safety Sword]

They're trying to say, "Pick a number randomly between 1 and 10, roll the d10 and see if you got it, if successful roll from the Wild Magic table."

I understand the idea now, but what's the difference between this and it happens on "1 on a d10"? Silly probability.

[Ziegander]

Side note on the wild magic topic: what the hell's with the 'the dm can have you roll' aspect of things? No other abilities in the game have that clause - the DM could decide never to have you roll and you can't do anything about it. I mean not that the DM would, but even so it seems kind of stupid. It's like they didn't know how to balance it, so they shoved the effort off onto the DM instead. The DM has a game to run, they shouldn't have to manage an aspect of your character for you and have to work out how often it should happen to be balanced on the fly.

Anyone have any suggestions, alternate ways to run it? Or is there something I'm missing about it?

I would also like to hear opinions on this, because in my home game, one player came to me and wanted to play a Wild Magic Sorcerer, but he asked me if I would make the deal with him that every time he cast a spell and didn't have his Tides of Chaos I would have him roll on the Surge table and get his Tides of Chaos back. I agreed on the grounds that that sounded hilarious and awesome.

But later another player came to the table as a Wild Magic Sorcerer, but we hadn't talked about it at all previously, and to date it's never come up in game. Mostly because, I'm the DM, I forget that he has that ability literally every session (but also because, for me, that ability is also really confusing; I blame the Wild Magic Surge ability directly above), but I'm supposed to use it. So I have one Wild Sorcerer that's always causing crazy surges, and another that never is. Advice?

[Jlooney]

I would also like to hear opinions on this, because in my home game, one player came to me and wanted to play a Wild Magic Sorcerer, but he asked me if I would make the deal with him that every time he cast a spell and didn't have his Tides of Chaos I would have him roll on the Surge table and get his Tides of Chaos back. I agreed on the grounds that that sounded hilarious and awesome.

But later another player came to the table as a Wild Magic Sorcerer, but we hadn't talked about it at all previously, and to date it's never come up in game. Mostly because, I'm the DM, I forget that he has that ability literally every session (but also because, for me, that ability is also really confusing); I blame the Wild Magic Surge ability directly above), but I'm supposed to use it. So I have one Wild Sorcerer that's always causing crazy surges, and another that never is. Advice?

After you use tides of chaos you invoke a sure, and after the surge is resolved you get ToC back. So...in reality you're playing it right from how you worded it.

[Eslin]

After you use tides of chaos you invoke a sure, and after the surge is resolved you get ToC back. So...in reality you're playing it right from how you worded it.

No you don't. It says 'at any point your DM may decide', if your DM forgets or decides not to you don't get it back until the next day. That's my objection/confusion regarding the system - it's literally the only thing phrased like this, and there are no guidelines at all for your DM deciding when or if the surge should happen. Should it happen immediately, next turn, half an hour later or never? That's up to your DM, and it seems arbitrary.

It would be like instead of the fighter's action surge being regained with a short rest, the wording was 'at any point the DM may decide that you regain your action surge, otherwise you regain it after a long rest'. It just seems weird and out of keeping with how everything else works. Why make the DM keep track of it?

[Human Paragon 3]

I'll admit to not having any idea what you mean with this. Care to explain?

I mean pick a number from 1-10, roll the die, and if you hit the number you named, the surge happens.

[Jlooney]

No you don't. It says 'at any point your DM may decide', if your DM forgets or decides not to you don't get it back until the next day. That's my objection/confusion regarding the system - it's literally the only thing phrased like this, and there are no guidelines at all for your DM deciding when or if the surge should happen. Should it happen immediately, next turn, half an hour later or never? That's up to your DM, and it seems arbitrary.

It would be like instead of the fighter's action surge being regained with a short rest, the wording was 'at any point the DM may decide that you regain your action surge, otherwise you regain it after a long rest'. It just seems weird and out of keeping with how everything else works. Why make the DM keep track of it?


I stand corrected after re-reading what you said, and having to re-read what he said, you are in face correct. However I don't believe that it's really all that much for a DM to say "Hey, Bob the Brutal, go ahead and surge on your next spell." That right there fulfills the criteria for it being off the DM's plate, the PC getting to use his class ability and recharge it. If that sentence is really to much for someone to handle, they have bigger issues and shouldn't be running a game.

[Eslin]

I stand corrected after re-reading what you said, and having to re-read what he said, you are in face correct. However I don't believe that it's really all that much for a DM to say "Hey, Bob the Brutal, go ahead and surge on your next spell." That right there fulfills the criteria for it being off the DM's plate, the PC getting to use his class ability and recharge it. If that sentence is really to much for someone to handle, they have bigger issues and shouldn't be running a game.

It's more A) it's a little more on the DM's already full plate, he may just forget and B) instead of balancing the ability by long rest, short rest, sorcery points or some other factor they've decided this should be the only ability in the game with 'when the DM says so' as its recharge condition. It's like... why?

[Demonic Spoon]

It would be like instead of the fighter's action surge being regained with a short rest, the wording was 'at any point the DM may decide that you regain your action surge, otherwise you regain it after a long rest'. It just seems weird and out of keeping with how everything else works. Why make the DM keep track of it?


I'm guessing the intent was that it happens all the time, but some people are really afraid of the negative consequences of wild surge, to the point that some people have apparently banned them from games, so they put that clause in there to say "You can limit it if you're really afraid of fireball-TPK".

[Scirocco]

It's more A) it's a little more on the DM's already full plate, he may just forget and B) instead of balancing the ability by long rest, short rest, sorcery points or some other factor they've decided this should be the only ability in the game with 'when the DM says so' as its recharge condition. It's like... why?

It's definitely a problem (especially in League play, as I've discovered), but an easy fix that leaves the DM off the hook is to just tell the player to make a roll every time they cast a spell, then it's on their shoulders not yours.

[Eslin]

It's definitely a problem (especially in League play, as I've discovered), but an easy fix that leaves the DM off the hook is to just tell the player to make a roll every time they cast a spell, then it's on their shoulders not yours.
So why didn't they just write that as the rules? This is so weird.


I'm guessing the intent was that it happens all the time, but some people are really afraid of the negative consequences of wild surge, to the point that some people have apparently banned them from games, so they put that clause in there to say "You can limit it if you're really afraid of fireball-TPK".
So why not just have it as an actual clause? Just have the surge have a chance to happen every turn after you use ToC and include a 'alternately, your DM can decide when the surge happens' clause. This whole thing isn't a huge deal, just like the stat changing item thing wasn't, it's just another instance of a series of game design decisions that make no sense. Pretty much everything in 5e works the same way, they went for a unified and simple system, but the edition is littered with little exceptions that run entirely counter to that ethos, and there doesn't seem to be any reason why.

In this instance: Every ability in the game has a specific recharge condition, except this one. For this one, it's the DM's job to decide!

[Ziegander]

[snip]This is so weird.


[snip]Just have the surge have a chance to happen every turn after you use ToC and include a 'alternately, your DM can decide when the surge happens' clause. This whole thing isn't a huge deal, just like the stat changing item thing wasn't, it's just another instance of a series of game design decisions that make no sense. Pretty much everything in 5e works the same way, they went for a unified and simple system, but the edition is littered with little exceptions that run entirely counter to that ethos, and there doesn't seem to be any reason why.

In this instance: Every ability in the game has a specific recharge condition, except this one. For this one, it's the DM's job to decide!

What's even weirder is that Wild Magic Sorcerers actually have two abilities that can cause a Wild Magic Surge, and they both require the DM to choose to have them happen, but the first one is to roll a d20 to have a 5% chance when you cast a 1st level or higher spell to then roll on the surge table, and the second one is the Tides of Chaos one where the DM can just skip the d20 and tell the player to roll on the surge table. Why the first ability exists at all, I have no idea, all it does is confuse me as to how surging even works (I mean, cognitively, I understand it, but every time it comes up in game I'm confused for a minute), and it seems like maybe you and others simply forget that this first thing is there to begin with. You get them both at 1st level, so it's not like Tides of Chaos is an "improved" version.

It sucks for me, because the Wild Sorcerer with "always surge" on feels awesome, while the other one, not so much. I think I might have to take the cool, unique thing me and the other player agreed on and spread it to the other Sorcerer, both because I don't feel like refereeing his class features, but also because he noticeably lacks in narrative power.

[Eslin]

What's even weirder is that Wild Magic Sorcerers actually have two abilities that can cause a Wild Magic Surge, and they both require the DM to choose to have them happen, but the first one is to roll a d20 to have a 5% chance when you cast a 1st level or higher spell to then roll on the surge table, and the second one is the Tides of Chaos one where the DM can just skip the d20 and tell the player to roll on the surge table. Why the first ability exists at all, I have no idea, all it does is confuse me as to how surging even works (I mean, cognitively, I understand it, but every time it comes up in game I'm confused for a minute), and it seems like maybe you and others simply forget that this first thing is there to begin with. You get them both at 1st level, so it's not like Tides of Chaos is an "improved" version.

It sucks for me, because the Wild Sorcerer with "always surge" on feels awesome, while the other one, not so much. I think I might have to take the cool, unique thing me and the other player agreed on and spread it to the other Sorcerer, both because I don't feel like refereeing his class features, but also because he noticeably lacks in narrative power.
No, I remembered about it, we were just discussing ToC. The DM decides when you need to roll a 1d20 thing means it pretty much never happens.

[archaeo]

So why didn't they just write that as the rules? This is so weird.

I mean, it's unfortunate if you want the game to play the same way at every table, but if you're not held back by that questionable constraint, it's a pretty flexible mechanic that gives DMs the ability to tailor the game as they'd like to. The way Wild Magic is set up, Tides of Chaos creates a give and take between DM and Wild Mage, which seems like a neat tension to play with and gives a pretty tangible 1/day bonus even at tables where DMs never make you roll on the table.

I mean, they wrote the rules this way because they know Wild Magic is inherently disruptive and divisive. These rules sacrifice inter-table consistency in favor of intra-table harmony.


This whole thing isn't a huge deal, just like the stat changing item thing wasn't, it's just another instance of a series of game design decisions that make no sense. Pretty much everything in 5e works the same way, they went for a unified and simple system, but the edition is littered with little exceptions that run entirely counter to that ethos, and there doesn't seem to be any reason why.

In this instance: Every ability in the game has a specific recharge condition, except this one. For this one, it's the DM's job to decide!

For one thing, consistency isn't a good thing in and of itself; if there's a good justification for an exception, it's no great sin against good design to make the exception. For another thing, Wild Magic is squarely within the 5e design ethos, insofar as the system seems to go to great lengths to remind the player that the DM's in charge while endowing the DM with a responsibility to run the system as they see fit.

Who knows! Maybe the DMG has a sidebar on the subject.

[OldTrees1]

A Wild Surger would have 2 important abilities:
1) Greater Control: Roll each Wild Surge N times and pick.
2) Greater Security: Add your class level to each Wild Surge roll.

Those 2 class features should keep the chaos element, allow the player to feel there is even more to the ability, and mitigate the chance of harm.

[Kurald Galain]

So why didn't they just write that as the rules? This is so weird.

Because while some players love wild mages, other players really hate them; and the 5E design team tries to please both groups by saying it's up to your DM.

[Eslin]

Because while some players love wild mages, other players really hate them; and the 5E design team tries to please both groups by saying it's up to your DM.

But there's gotta be plenty of other stuff with mixed reception, and they didn't try it there, either. If you think some people will hate the rules make them optional, don't put such stupid gameplay measures in. Seriously nowhere else in the entire edition is there anything similar - the whole point of recharge conditions is they balance the abilities, a ninth level spell can be used once per day while flurry of blows can be used 1-20 times per short rest. By making this be the only ability without such a condition and instead basing it on 'whenever the guy who has to keep track of a dozen other things says' they're deliberately admitting it will be unbalanced.

[Kurald Galain]

But there's gotta be plenty of other stuff with mixed reception, and they didn't try it there, either. If you think some people will hate the rules make them optional, don't put such stupid gameplay measures in. Seriously nowhere else in the entire edition is there anything similar - the whole point of recharge conditions is they balance the abilities, a ninth level spell can be used once per day while flurry of blows can be used 1-20 times per short rest. By making this be the only ability without such a condition and instead basing it on 'whenever the guy who has to keep track of a dozen other things says' they're deliberately admitting it will be unbalanced.

This has nothing to do with game balance, but with player tastes.

And yes, they also did it for other things. For example, the controversial races are labeled as "uncommon" meaning you need to get DM approval before playing one (whereas you don't need approval to play e.g. an elf).

[Eslin]

This has nothing to do with game balance, but with player tastes.

And yes, they also did it for other things. For example, the controversial races are labeled as "uncommon" meaning you need to get DM approval before playing one (whereas you don't need approval to play e.g. an elf).

Incorrect, I just explained why it had to do with game balance. Every other ability has defined recharge conditions, this one has recharge conditions entirely dependent on the DM. I gave a reasonable analogy before - imagine if you didn't regain the ability to use action surge with a short rest, but instead only regained it when the DM said you did. That's not a method of balancing ability use, instead of being balanced against other abilities in terms of strengths and costs determining recharge time it varies based on each DM and their current mood.

And no, they did not do it for other things. Having it be an optional include like the uncommon races would have been fine, and in fact was something I suggested earlier. It would be if like instead of having alternate races like dragonborn require DM approval they decided to solve some players not liking the idea by having their breath weapon recharge when the DM decides it does rather than on a short rest. It doesn't fix anything and screws up balance.

[Rallicus]

The irony here is that Eslin wants specific rules pertaining to something that is considered spontaneous and random. What better way to do so than to rely entirely on the randomness of dice and a DM's whim?

And this notion of "balance." D&D has only been really balanced once, and that was in 4e. While it filled a niche, it was very wargamey and many fans received it negatively. They're obviously not going down that road this time, so giving the reigns to a DM in regards to one class feature isn't a gamebreaker.

Genuine question, Eslin: have you even played 5e? I've yet to see examples of play in your arguments; maybe I just missed them?

[Eslin]

The irony here is that Eslin wants specific rules pertaining to something that is considered spontaneous and random. What better way to do so than to rely entirely on the randomness of dice and a DM's whim?

And this notion of "balance." D&D has only been really balanced once, and that was in 4e. While it filled a niche, it was very wargamey and many fans received it negatively. They're obviously not going down that road this time, so giving the reigns to a DM in regards to one class feature isn't a gamebreaker.

Genuine question, Eslin: have you even played 5e? I've yet to see examples of play in your arguments; maybe I just missed them?

Yes, I have, though very little, as I am almost always required to DM. And I've spent a long time DMing, and am aware that putting something like wild surge into the DM's hands is absolutely pointless. It's not that it's that huge a deal, it's just that there is no reason for it to be that way - as the DM I keep track of a lot, and could quite easily forget about the sorcerer's wild surges for the entire session. None of the stuff I complain about is a gamebreaker, and wild magic already has randomness built in, that's where the whole wild surge thing comes in. It's just that there is no advantage to having the DM manage it as compared to going 'ok, this is about this strong, and these abilities are that strong and have this recharge mechanic, so we'll give it that recharge mechanic'.

I'll give you a contrast - wild surge is a lot more beneficial, but it's pretty similar to the psychic phenomena aspect of powers in the 40k RPGs. It's inherently chaotic in 40k too, which is why when you trigger such phenomena you roll on a table full of effects, the same way wild surge does, which satisfies the inherent unreliability and randomness of the concept. What they did not do, because doing so would have been pointless and poorly balanced, is make the effect trigger whenever the GM says so - instead they made psychic phenomena have a chance to occur based on the level of the spell (translating into D&D terms).

And how would an example of play help with this? This is a class feature we're discussing, and it's not being compared in usefulness to any other feature. The problem with it is instead of using a recharge mechanic based on something in the game like every single other aspect of 5e, they decided to base it on 'whenever the DM says so'. They don't even do that for monsters the DM controls directly (a d6 is usually used instead), why on earth would they include it for one specific type of player character?

Reiterating this once again - A, how the hell would an example of play be relevant to this discussion and B, how is the DM's whim (your words) supposed to represent randomness, unless you're having a Slaad DM for you? Why not have the recharge be based on dice, which actually are random?

[Yoroichi]

Hey, just wanted to add my 2 cents since i have been experimenting with multi class sorcerer.
It is lots of fun always rolling for an effect and i can see its appeal.

Rolling after every spell will make the character imbalanced and will make the game hard to run. The wild magic table is mostly beneficial/comedic stuff.

5% ( 1 on a d20) is too small a chance and it is possible it will never happen through spells. I have only rolled a 1 once in the last 6 5-hour sessions with our party, (this is for every d20 roll i made). The wild magic thingie 1st level ability can be used only once/8hours as such i do not consider it to add too much to the whole wild sorcerer flavour.

My suggestion is increasing the possibility to 20% or 25%, so roll a d10 and if it is a 9 or a 10 he gets a roll on the wild magic table.

Since battles typically last up to 6 rounds in 5e, 1 in 5 or 1 in 4 chance is enough to keep excitement going, but not enough to majorly affect the game.

[Eslin]

Hey, just wanted to add my 2 cents since i have been experimenting with multi class sorcerer.
It is lots of fun always rolling for an effect and i can see its appeal.

Rolling after every spell will make the character imbalanced and will make the game hard to run. The wild magic table is mostly beneficial/comedic stuff.

5% ( 1 on a d20) is too small a chance and it is possible it will never happen through spells. I have only rolled a 1 once in the last 6 5-hour sessions with our party, (this is for every d20 roll i made). The wild magic thingie 1st level ability can be used only once/8hours as such i do not consider it to add too much to the whole wild sorcerer flavour.

My suggestion is increasing the possibility to 20% or 25%, so roll a d10 and if it is a 9 or a 10 he gets a roll on the wild magic table.

Since battles typically last up to 6 rounds in 5e, 1 in 5 or 1 in 4 chance is enough to keep excitement going, but not enough to majorly affect the game.

Ooo, whatcha multiclassing with? I've only seen sorcerer combine with warlock before, curious to see how other combinations work.

[Forum Explorer]

So why didn't they just write that as the rules? This is so weird.


So why not just have it as an actual clause? Just have the surge have a chance to happen every turn after you use ToC and include a 'alternately, your DM can decide when the surge happens' clause. This whole thing isn't a huge deal, just like the stat changing item thing wasn't, it's just another instance of a series of game design decisions that make no sense. Pretty much everything in 5e works the same way, they went for a unified and simple system, but the edition is littered with little exceptions that run entirely counter to that ethos, and there doesn't seem to be any reason why.

In this instance: Every ability in the game has a specific recharge condition, except this one. For this one, it's the DM's job to decide!

It's weird that it exists in this system (or rather that it's the only type in this system) but it's not that bad, because it does have a recharge mechanism outside of DM control.

However the whole thing reminds me of another system called a Fate Pool or Karma Pool. Where basically the entire team gets three Fate Points between them. They spend them to do something awesome, but the points don't recharge until the DM spends one for an NPC or antagonist.

Tides of Chaos seems to be a lesser form of that mechanic.

[Eslin]

It's weird that it exists in this system (or rather that it's the only type in this system) but it's not that bad, because it does have a recharge mechanism outside of DM control.

However the whole thing reminds me of another system called a Fate Pool or Karma Pool. Where basically the entire team gets three Fate Points between them. They spend them to do something awesome, but the points don't recharge until the DM spends one for an NPC or antagonist.

Tides of Chaos seems to be a lesser form of that mechanic.

They sort of don't have a recharge mechanism outside DM control. Tides of Chaos has a recharge mechanic (long rest, far too long for such an ability), but wild magic surge doesn't have one - it may activate randomly, but only when the DM determines it can. A 5% chance after every spell is already far too low - even if your DM told you to roll it after every spell, the sorcerer would need to be level 9 before casting every single one of his spells would give you a better than 50% chance of happening that day. By itself that would be kind of underwhelming, but then they added that the DM chooses when you can do it.

[Forum Explorer]

They sort of don't have a recharge mechanism outside DM control. Tides of Chaos has a recharge mechanic (long rest, far too long for such an ability), but wild magic surge doesn't have one - it may activate randomly, but only when the DM determines it can. A 5% chance after every spell is already far too low - even if your DM told you to roll it after every spell, the sorcerer would need to be level 9 before casting every single one of his spells would give you a better than 50% chance of happening that day. By itself that would be kind of underwhelming, but then they added that the DM chooses when you can do it.

Isn't Wild Magic Surge supposed to be bad? Well, not bad as much as neutral. With some bad luck a wild surge can wipe the party at level one.

The point is that they chose to have it happen infrequently so the class isn't annoying to play (or play with).

[Eslin]

Isn't Wild Magic Surge supposed to be bad? Well, not bad as much as neutral. With some bad luck a wild surge can wipe the party at level one.

The point is that they chose to have it happen infrequently so the class isn't annoying to play (or play with).

Which is fine, just as long as they make sure the wild mage's features are equal to everyone else's. If you already have the randomness, why add the DM having to tell you you can do it before you make the one in twenty roll?

[Yoroichi]

Ooo, whatcha multiclassing with? I've only seen sorcerer combine with warlock before, curious to see how other combinations work.

Rogue with trickster archetype :D


Also regarding your concern of the DM having too much control over the wild magic, i was thinking there could be a separate table for when the wild effect occurs.

Roll d6
1 for instant
2 for 1 minute
3 for next round

etc etc

[Morukai]

I would also like to hear opinions on this, because in my home game, one player came to me and wanted to play a Wild Magic Sorcerer, but he asked me if I would make the deal with him that every time he cast a spell and didn't have his Tides of Chaos I would have him roll on the Surge table and get his Tides of Chaos back. I agreed on the grounds that that sounded hilarious and awesome.

But later another player came to the table as a Wild Magic Sorcerer, but we hadn't talked about it at all previously, and to date it's never come up in game. Mostly because, I'm the DM, I forget that he has that ability literally every session (but also because, for me, that ability is also really confusing; I blame the Wild Magic Surge ability directly above), but I'm supposed to use it. So I have one Wild Sorcerer that's always causing crazy surges, and another that never is. Advice?

Roll a die, in secret, after sorc. uses ToC (size of the die depending on how often you want it to happen). Every time sorc. casts a spell, keep track of it. When sorc. casts as many spells as your number on the die, another surge occurs. Roll another die, repeat.

This does require you to track his spellcasting, which shouldn't be that big of a deal really. It keeps a random element (number of the die roll), and you can vary the size of the die depending on if you want it more likely to occur, or less likely. It also makes it less "DM mood dependent" - unless you just ignore the roll outright at times or say "yeah, this is a good time for a surge."

[Forum Explorer]

Which is fine, just as long as they make sure the wild mage's features are equal to everyone else's. If you already have the randomness, why add the DM having to tell you you can do it before you make the one in twenty roll?

Equal? Perhaps not, but I doubt that a Sorcerer is going to find themselves unbalanced compared to any other class no matter what their subclass is.

I think it's so the DM can decide that sometimes there is no risk of it happening because only bad results would happen if it did.

[Galen]

To whoever is wondering why the DM gets to choose whether to roll a die, this is 5E. DM fiat is pretty much codified into the rules.


When you attempt to influence someone through overt threats, hostile actions, and physical violence, the DM might ask you to make a Charisma (Intimidation) checkBut then again, he might not.

The DM might ask you to make a Wisdom (Survival) check to follow tracksOr an Intelligence check, if he is so inclined.

your DM might allow you to make a Strength (Athletics) check to jump higher than you normally can.

You can spend time between adventures learning a new language or training with a set of tools. Your DM might allow additional training options.

Get used to it. "DM gets to choose" is the new normal.

[Eslin]

Equal? Perhaps not, but I doubt that a Sorcerer is going to find themselves unbalanced compared to any other class no matter what their subclass is.

I think it's so the DM can decide that sometimes there is no risk of it happening because only bad results would happen if it did.
But that's not how the game works. If the barbarian exhausts himself raging, there's no 'DM decides this doesn't happen' switch. And it doesn't matter about other classes, if wild mage is an inferior subclass (which it presently is) then sorcerers are left with only one choice, which means no choice. And to add to that dragons have a specific elemental theme, so if you want someone that doesn't use elemental blasting you're **** out of luck.

Come to think of it, the lack of a decent sorcerer subclass is the only thing stopping warlock 2/sorcerer x being unstoppable =P

[Ziegander]

Roll a die, in secret, after sorc. uses ToC (size of the die depending on how often you want it to happen). Every time sorc. casts a spell, keep track of it. When sorc. casts as many spells as your number on the die, another surge occurs. Roll another die, repeat.

This does require you to track his spellcasting, which shouldn't be that big of a deal really. It keeps a random element (number of the die roll), and you can vary the size of the die depending on if you want it more likely to occur, or less likely. It also makes it less "DM mood dependent" - unless you just ignore the roll outright at times or say "yeah, this is a good time for a surge."

This is a great idea, and I will try it, but it also doesn't help that the other sorcerer player is brand new to the edition and hasn't played D&D since 2e, and never a lot even then, and he often forgets that he even has Tides of Chaos. I need to remind him to do that...

[Beacon of Chaos]

In my most recent game, the DM gave my Warlock a scroll that lets her cast Evard's Black Tentacles once a day (as a 4th level caster. Sweet!) but it always causes a wild surge.

Perhaps you could give your player a similar ability or item. A guaranteed wild surge once per long rest shouldn't disrupt the game too much.

[Forum Explorer]

But that's not how the game works. If the barbarian exhausts himself raging, there's no 'DM decides this doesn't happen' switch. And it doesn't matter about other classes, if wild mage is an inferior subclass (which it presently is) then sorcerers are left with only one choice, which means no choice. And to add to that dragons have a specific elemental theme, so if you want someone that doesn't use elemental blasting you're **** out of luck.

Come to think of it, the lack of a decent sorcerer subclass is the only thing stopping warlock 2/sorcerer x being unstoppable =P

Except the Barbarian doesn't Rage randomly. The Wild Mage only Wild Surges at random or when the DM wants it to happen. The player has no control over it at all. Plus Rage is meant to be pretty much a buff. Wild Surges are not.

Also people chose inferior choices all the time because they like the fluff of the classes or just think it's mechanics look cool. See 3.5's Monks and Samurai. The Wild Mage Sorcerer doesn't need to match the power of the other subclass, just remain within the power level of all the other classes.

[Freelance GM]

So if you roll a Nat 1 after casting a sorc spell you have a wild surge...

A player came to me and said he'd like a wild sure after EVERY spell, with no chance to not have one.

The way I interpreted Tides of Chaos working was that you could get a free re-roll now, and in exchange, the DM would guarantee your next spell to Wild surge. This effectively gives the player a re-rolled attack/ability check/saving throw for every Spell Slot they haven't already used, instead of the DM clinging to the automatic surge until the worst possible moment.

[Giant2005]

The DM's decision of Tides of Chaos makes sense. The ability isn't supposed to be spammable, it is single use - the Wild Surge option is only there so the DM has the power to trigger a Wild Surge on a whim if it is beneficial to the story. The mechanic of getting the use of Tides of Chaos back is just there to compensate the Sorcerer (And give the player an ounce of control himself) for what would otherwise be a vindictive act.
The DM option on Wild Magic Surge however is plain stupid. There is already the random element which prevents the DM from having any real control anyway - the only control it gives him is the ability to ensure that there is never a Wild Surge if he should choose. If that was an option the DM actually wanted, he should have just rejected the character and had the player have the Draconic Bloodline.

[Demonic Spoon]

Is it so problematic if Tides of Chaos is used frequently? Keep in mind that Tides of Chaos is really the meat of the subclass for a long, long time, whereas draconic bloodline sorcerers get permanent mage armor at level 3, and I'm forgetting the level 7 features, but I recall the draconic bloodline one being better than the wild magic one.