Need help choosing a psionic class!

[The Random NPC]

I’m joining a 3.5 game soon, and my GM has decided to allow psionic classes. Now since I rarely get to play psionic, I don’t know much about them, and so I come to the playground for advice.

We will be using the Pathfinder version 30 point buy (http://tools.digitalightbulb.com/pbcalc.html) for the stats, no race with a LA is allowed, and no more than 3 classes in a build, including any prestige classes. My group is not the best optimizers, and my GM says this campaign will be very lethal, so if I could help shore up our weaknesses to mitigate the lethality, that would be great.

My group consists of an Elven Warblade, possibly focusing on Tiger Claw or White Raven; a Druid, race is still being decided, focusing on wildshaping; and a fey Sorcerer of some type. We are allowed to choose 2 flaws, but they have to affect our characters somehow (that is, you can’t choose any flaw that will never affect your character such as a vision based flaw on a blind character). Otherwise, most books should be open.

While I’d prefer a support class to make everyone awesome, I’d be fine with other classes. The most important aspect is that I should be able to prevent or mitigate TPKs, as two of our players used to play in a group where (for fluff reasons) the cleric had an 8 Wisdom, and the Gunslingers ability to target touch AC or add Dex to damage was the most broken thing ever.

[Manly Man]

You might try to go for a Psion (Nomad), since while they're not the best discipline to focus on, they are great at battlefield control, and Psychoportation can have some really nifty solutions to puzzles, especially with later powers. Psychic Warriors are better if you're trying to just dip your toes in, since while you'll have to focus them on something, there aren't many roles they'll be bad at.

Another idea might be to do a particular Ruby Knight Vindicator build that can net you access to 2nd-level powers, 3rd-level Cleric spells, and 9th-level maneuvers, though it is kind of cheesy.

Build:

Human
PsyWar 1
PsyWar 2
PsyWar 3
PsyWar 4
Cleric 1
RKV 1
RKV 2
RKV 3
RKV 4
RKV 5
RKV 6
RKV 7
PsyWar 5

At first level, be sure to take Martial Study to get Crusader's Strike, and then the next available feat goes to Martial Stance for Iron Guard's Glare. As soon as you can nab 2nd-level powers, get hustle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm), since not only is it a great power in the first place, it's also pretty integral. The level of Cleric is for the turning attempts that are necessary to qualify for RKV, and I recommend grabbing both Practiced Manifester and Extra Turning at some point while you're taking RKV. At RKV 7, you get the ability to exchange a turn attempt for a swift action, using as many turn attempts as you like, so long as you have them. Hustle takes a swift action to manifest, and gives you a move action in return, so as long as you have power points and turn attempts, your turn lasts as long as you like. It also lets you do things like get your psionic focus back if you have Psionic Meditation (which you should pretty much always get if you ever have any manifester levels at all), and in turn use that to power things like Psychic Renewal, which allows you to have that maneuver back when you need it NOW. The Cleric spells should go entirely to things like buffs, especially greater mighty wallop (http://dndtools.eu/spells/races-of-the-dragon--83/mighty-wallop-greater--3107/); take Practiced Spellcaster to help maximize the effect and get your weapon to do Huge damage; an executioner's mace (martial 2-handed, 2d6, x3, B&P or B&S, 12 lbs., found in Dungeon mag) will end up with 4d6 by the time you're buffed out.

After you get the next level of PsyWar post-RKV, pick one initiator class and stick with it. I'd recommend either Crusader and focus on Devoted Spirit if you want to be a lockdown-tanking machine, or Swordsage and focus on Shadow Hand with a secondary focus on Diamond Mind, or vice-versa, if you want to be a fellow who can teleport around the place and debuff everyone while giving them the headache of a lifetime, which helps with battlefield control. You'll be able to relocate yourself to whatever strategical area would be best, making you great for some wily tactics. Given, it's not primarily a psionic build, but psionics are the key part of it, and all of the more supernatural bits of the maneuvers you can, with some fluff manipulation, chalk up to also being psionic in nature, so long as you're playing with magic-psionics transparency. I don't think Diamond Mind has any supernatural maneuvers, but the fluff of them may as well be, and again, can be fluffed to being brain power. With this build, there are a lot of things you can do, such as healing, debuffing bosses, tanking, and battlefield control, so you don't have to feel locked down to one role, and you can take alternate courses of action if you feel that you're encroaching too far into the Warblade's territory if you aim to be a damage dealer.

EDIT: Ah, crap, it exceeds the class limit by one. Plead with your DM a bit to see if you can get some leeway on this one, because if your team has any weaknesses, you can likely mitigate them to some degree with it.

[Feint's End]

I’m joining a 3.5 game soon, and my GM has decided to allow psionic classes. Now since I rarely get to play psionic, I don’t know much about them, and so I come to the playground for advice.

We will be using the Pathfinder version 30 point buy (http://tools.digitalightbulb.com/pbcalc.html) for the stats, no race with a LA is allowed, and no more than 3 classes in a build, including any prestige classes. My group is not the best optimizers, and my GM says this campaign will be very lethal, so if I could help shore up our weaknesses to mitigate the lethality, that would be great.

My group consists of an Elven Warblade, possibly focusing on Tiger Claw or White Raven; a Druid, race is still being decided, focusing on wildshaping; and a fey Sorcerer of some type. We are allowed to choose 2 flaws, but they have to affect our characters somehow (that is, you can’t choose any flaw that will never affect your character such as a vision based flaw on a blind character). Otherwise, most books should be open.

While I’d prefer a support class to make everyone awesome, I’d be fine with other classes. The most important aspect is that I should be able to prevent or mitigate TPKs, as two of our players used to play in a group where (for fluff reasons) the cleric had an 8 Wisdom, and the Gunslingers ability to target touch AC or add Dex to damage was the most broken thing ever.

Can you play psionic classes from pathfinder? If yes this makes the choice a bit easier.

Vitalist (with cushion the bow) and tactician both do a good job in protecting and buffing. Just psion works nicely too.

[The Random NPC]

EDIT: Ah, crap, it exceeds the class limit by one. Plead with your DM a bit to see if you can get some leeway on this one, because if your team has any weaknesses, you can likely mitigate them to some degree with it.

I've argued about the limitation before, I've brought up how it mostly only hurts non-casters, but no dice. Personally I believe that it's caster bias bleeding over into their GMing, but they have a lot of other weird beliefs as well, so maybe not.


Can you play psionic classes from pathfinder? If yes this makes the choice a bit easier.

Vitalist (with cushion the bow) and tactician both do a good job in protecting and buffing. Just psion works nicely too.

Unfortunately, this game is explicitly 3.5. I might be able to convince my GM, but having seen a Life Leech Sadist Vitalist in play in a previous game, it's unlikely to get approved.

[Sian]

depends somewhat on what kind of support you want to be

if you want to know what you enter and use that knowledge to plan ahead, go Psion (seer)

If you want to control the battlefield go Psion (Nomad)

If you want to socialize your way through the world making friends out of encounters go Psion (Telepath)

[Prime32]

Unfortunately, this game is explicitly 3.5. I might be able to convince my GM, but having seen a Life Leech Sadist Vitalist in play in a previous game, it's unlikely to get approved.What about the original versions of Tactician and Vitalist then - Society Mind (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/society-mind) and Worldthought Medic (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/worldthought-medic)?

[Feint's End]

What about the original versions of Tactician and Vitalist then - Society Mind (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/society-mind) and Worldthought Medic (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/worldthought-medic)?

Meh these classes are not even close to Vitalist and Tactician.

But I wonder why was the life leech sadist such a problem? At most you get to mid op ... They have a very low ceiling.

I would suggest psion then for general goodness.

[Petrocorus]

My group consists of an Elven Warblade, possibly focusing on Tiger Claw or White Raven; a Druid, race is still being decided, focusing on wildshaping; and a fey Sorcerer of some type. We are allowed to choose 2 flaws, but they have to affect our characters somehow (that is, you can’t choose any flaw that will never affect your character such as a vision based flaw on a blind character). Otherwise, most books should be open.


Your group need an utility caster OOC, and IC some BFC. The Druid can provide some but you should ask the Sorcerer what he will focus on.
Remember the 5 main roles In-Combat : Big S Fighter, Glass Canon, BFC, Buff, Debuff.
And the 5 main roles OOC: Social, Sneak/ Trapfinder, Tracker, Healer, Utility
I'll advise to coordinate with the other on who will do what, so to better select your class / discipline and you powers.

I would advise Erudite (no StP) if your DM is OK to rise the UP/D limit, or to use the Text Trumps Table rule in this case.
Else, i would advise Psion. Egoist, Shaper and Telepath being usually considered the 3 best ones. It depends on what you exactly want to do, and what the Sorcerer want to do.

As for PrC, i'd say Anarchic Initiate or Slayer, depending on the focus of your character. Or both of them maybe. You don't really need more than this in a low / average OP game. Maybe a Ranger / Warblade / Factotum dip for some combination or specific ability.

[RoboEmperor]

TELEPATH!
TELEPAtH!
TELEPATH!

Did I say telepath? I don't think I've said it enough times. TELEPATH!

The reason is... true mind switch!!! It's the one thing I covet like crazy. If magic wasn't so awesome, I'd definitely be a telepath.

For 10,000xp (it's only 1/2 xp til your next level), you can become any creature in the game! Tarrasque? YES! Pit Fiend? YES! Planetar? YES! Succubus? YES! Greater Stone Golem? YES!

If you don't however, like the idea of achieving demonic ascension, or celestial ascension, or acquiring a super powerful physical body when combined with your super psionic mind becomes the ultimate perfect being in the universe, or just playing as one of your favorite creatures in the game, then ignore me :(

[Petrocorus]

Did I say telepath? I don't think I've said it enough times. TELEPATH!

The reason is... true mind switch!!! It's the one thing I covet like crazy. If magic wasn't so awesome, I'd definitely be a telepath.

For 10,000xp (it's only 1/2 xp til your next level), you can become any creature in the game! Tarrasque? YES! Pit Fiend? YES! Planetar? YES! Succubus? YES! Greater Stone Golem? YES!


May i raise you Fusion + Astral Seed + a way to recover lost level when dying (Ardent Dilettante, for instance). Be a Tarrasque, a Pit Fiend, a Planetar, a Succubus, a Greater Stone Golem all at once.

[mabriss lethe]

Whatever you choose, remember abuse...ahem take advantage of obtaining the psicrystal.

[Urpriest]

While I disagree with some of the above posters who suggest that Nomad has the best BFC, I'd still suggest Nomad, because Nomad has the best TPK avoidance. The Time Hop line is great for "well, we're screwed, what do we do?" moments, and getting Time Regression at level 17 is a great undo button for TPK situations. You can go further and use Forced Dream (and possibly the rest of the Save Game Trick) if you really want TPK insurance.

Otherwise, I'd probably go Shaper. Seeing as your Fey Sorceror sounds like one of the less optimization-minded players, I'm guessing they probably are going for Enchantment, so you probably shouldn't go Telepath. Shaper has lots of BFC, but in particular Astral Construct, which is a great toolbox for pretty much whatever you need.

[The Random NPC]

depends somewhat on what kind of support you want to be

if you want to know what you enter and use that knowledge to plan ahead, go Psion (seer)

If you want to control the battlefield go Psion (Nomad)

If you want to socialize your way through the world making friends out of encounters go Psion (Telepath)

Generally, I prefer support that makes it hard to say I'm the only one that does anything. So buffing and BFC mostly.


What about the original versions of Tactician and Vitalist then - Society Mind (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/society-mind) and Worldthought Medic (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/worldthought-medic)?

My group is a bit leery of 3rd party stuff.


Meh these classes are not even close to Vitalist and Tactician.
W
But I wonder why was the life leech sadist such a problem? At most you get to mid op ... They have a very low ceiling.

I would suggest psion then for general goodness.

It was mostly OOC issues, but we were playing a module and nothing had defenses against psionics (no transparency, which incidentally is the same for this game), coupled with the ability to keep everyone in it top shape and steal HP from people more or less at will.


Whatever you choose, remember abuse...ahem take advantage of obtaining the psicrystal.

I'm not too familiar with psionics, what... advantages... might I expect?


While I disagree with some of the above posters who suggest that Nomad has the best BFC, I'd still suggest Nomad, because Nomad has the best TPK avoidance. The Time Hop line is great for "well, we're screwed, what do we do?" moments, and getting Time Regression at level 17 is a great undo button for TPK situations. You can go further and use Forced Dream (and possibly the rest of the Save Game Trick) if you really want TPK insurance.

I'll probably stay away form the Save Game Trick, but the various try again mechanics seem perfect, it'll allow my party to try something risky and, if it fails, learn from their mistake immediately.


Otherwise, I'd probably go Shaper. Seeing as your Fey Sorceror sounds like one of the less optimization-minded players, I'm guessing they probably are going for Enchantment, so you probably shouldn't go Telepath. Shaper has lots of BFC, but in particular Astral Construct, which is a great toolbox for pretty much whatever you need.

I actually have no idea what their optimization level is, though they do have a tendency to be unwilling to refluff things. Wasn't there a prestige class based on the Astral Construct power?

[Urpriest]

I actually have no idea what their optimization level is, though they do have a tendency to be unwilling to refluff things. Wasn't there a prestige class based on the Astral Construct power?

Constructor (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) is the best one. There's another, but it's based on the nerfs in Complete Psionic which you should not make your DM aware of. :smallwink:

As for transparency, does the DM have a reason besides ignorance for that? The game doesn't really work without transparency.

[The Random NPC]

Constructor (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) is the best one. There's another, but it's based on the nerfs in Complete Psionic which you should not make your DM aware of. :smallwink:

As for transparency, does the DM have a reason besides ignorance for that? The game doesn't really work without transparency.

It's not ignorance, my GM is fully aware of the problems inherent with no transparency. They just don't like it for reasons I have yet to fathom.

[Urpriest]

It's not ignorance, my GM is fully aware of the problems inherent with on transparency. They just don't like it for reasons I have yet to fathom.

Hmm. Ok, in that case definitely stick with classes that don't make the absence of transparency as obviously terrible, so that the DM doesn't throw a hissy-fit and re-ban psionics. Shaper is probably still the best choice, since you almost never affect the opponent directly.

[Petrocorus]

Hmm. Ok, in that case definitely stick with classes that don't make the absence of transparency as obviously terrible, so that the DM doesn't throw a hissy-fit and re-ban psionics. Shaper is probably still the best choice, since you almost never affect the opponent directly.

Why is the absence of transparency so terrible?

[Urpriest]

Why is the absence of transparency so terrible?

Because if Psionics doesn't have a major role in the system, then no transparency means psionics is a lot harder to block. Most monsters will have SR, but not PR, casters won't be able to dispel your powers...magic doesn't have many things that counter it, and without a psionics-heavy campaign you won't run into any of those. And a character who can't be countered is the sort of thing that makes mediocre DMs get really annoying really fast.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I could see some sort of partial transparency being.... okay..... but no transparency at all is extremely foolish. Just as Urpriest said, it will certainly lead a DM to great aggravation unless he goes for a -very- psionics heavy game.

[The Random NPC]

Hmm. Ok, in that case definitely stick with classes that don't make the absence of transparency as obviously terrible, so that the DM doesn't throw a hissy-fit and re-ban psionics. Shaper is probably still the best choice, since you almost never affect the opponent directly.

Well this GM is not likely to ban psionics, in fact, the only reason we get to play psionics is because of this GM. Mostly, this GM causes our other GMs to ban psionics, because all they see are unstoppable characters due to no transparency.

As an aside, this campaign is "low magic" meaning that magic items are rare, as are casters. Unless you go to one of the 3 floating cities ruled by magic, one for Arcane, one for Divine, and one for Psionics. They move around, so it'll be hard to teleport there. Even if you find it once, you might have trouble finding it again. I believe the cities are rather far apart from each other, and the world is something like 1 billion square miles of surface area.