3.5 Warlocks and Ability Focus

[Joe Eskimo]

It says Warlocks can take Ability Focus for Eldritch Blast. I'm guessing it applies to any and all forms of Eldritch Blast however modified by blast shape and/or essence that requires a save. So could I also take Ability Focus for his "Other Invocations" that require a save? Like Ability Focus:Baleful Utterance or Ability Focus:Word of Changing?

[TypoNinja]

Warlock invocations are Spell Like abilities, so yes.

The Warlock Class description straight up tells you so.


Since spell-like abilities are not actually spells, a warlock cannot benefi t from the Spell Focus feat. He can, however, benefit from the Ability Focus feat (see page 303 of the Monster Manual), as well as from feats that emulate metamagic effects for spell-like abilities, such as Quicken Spell-Like Ability and Empower Spell-Like Ability (see pages 303 and 304 of the Monster Manual).

[Necroticplague]

No. Each invocation is a SLA. Using precedence from statblocks, that makes it a special quality, not a special attack, which is what Ability Focus applies to.

[Marlowe]

What you want is Bolster SLA from BoVD.

[TypoNinja]

No. Each invocation is a SLA. Using precedence from statblocks, that makes it a special quality, not a special attack, which is what Ability Focus applies to.

I literally just pasted the text from Complete Arcane that says other wise.

Also by your logic, Elderich Blast it self doesn't qualify as its also a SLA, except the text goes on to suggest you do exactly that, and follows it up with examples of exactly that.

I'm slightly confused on your logic here.

[Joe Eskimo]

What you want is Bolster SLA from BoVD.

Found it. Boost Spell-Like Ability. +2 to DC 3x/day. So the feat I need to take is Boost Spell-Like Ability:Baleful Utterance or Word of Changing correct?

[Necroticplague]

I literally just pasted the text from Complete Arcane that says other wise.

Also by your logic, Elderich Blast it self doesn't qualify as its also a SLA, except the text goes on to suggest you do exactly that, and follows it up with examples of exactly that.

I'm slightly confused on your logic here.

So? The dudes who wrote it could have easily just gotten the rules wrong, and thus not known you technically couldn't take it. Just like the dudes who thought you could enter fleshwarper at level 6, and use that as the example.

The logic is easy:
Add +2 to the DC for all saving throws against the special attack on which the creature focuses.

So unless they warlocks invocation are defined as a special attack, they don't qualify.

[The_Snark]

No. Each invocation is a SLA. Using precedence from statblocks, that makes it a special quality, not a special attack, which is what Ability Focus applies to.

What precedence? In every 3.5 statblock I've seen, spell-like abilities are listed under Special Attacks rather than Special Qualities. (The same applies to most 3.0 statblocks, though there are occasional exceptions - mostly when the creature has only a few harmless SLAs, like the aoa's detect magic from Fiend Folio, and even this seems to have gone away in 3.5 (see: lantern archon).) If you've got another source, I'm curious, but right now I can't find any evidence for SLAs being special qualities.

[Marlowe]

Found it. Boost Spell-Like Ability. +2 to DC 3x/day. So the feat I need to take is Boost Spell-Like Ability:Baleful Utterance or Word of Changing correct?

That's right. Got no idea why I thought it was called "Bolster".

Funny book, BoVD.

[Necroticplague]

What precedence? In every 3.5 statblock I've seen, spell-like abilities are listed under Special Attacks rather than Special Qualities. (The same applies to most 3.0 statblocks, though there are occasional exceptions.) I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that SLAs count as special qualities; source?

Huh. You appear to be correct. No clue what I was looking at before. I thought I googled devils to double check and the first one I saw had SLAs as qualities, but I appear to be wrong on that one. My mistake.

[Joe Eskimo]

Okay so to be clear ALL Invocations are SLAs correct? And quoting Complete Arcane


Since spell-like abilities are not actually spells, a warlock cannot benefi t from the Spell Focus feat. He can, however, benefit from the Ability Focus feat (see page 303 of the Monster Manual), as well as from feats that emulate metamagic effects for spell-like abilities, such as Quicken Spell-Like Ability and Empower Spell-Like Ability (see pages 303 and 304 of the Monster Manual).

So that means I could take either Ability Focus or Boost Spell-Like Ability for the invocations Baleful Utterance or Word of Changing correct?

Or am I still missing something?

[prufock]

Found it. Boost Spell-Like Ability. +2 to DC 3x/day. So the feat I need to take is Boost Spell-Like Ability:Baleful Utterance or Word of Changing correct?
No. Boost Spell-Like Ability states that you can boost each of your SLAs 3 times per day. EACH. It's in BOVD, but it isn't an evil or vile feat. Very good for warlocks, dragonfire adepts, etc that use lots of SLAs. Take it multiple times to increase the number of times by 3. FOR EACH SLA. I love this feat.

Note that you can take ability focus as well, apply it to EB so it lasts all day, and from what I can tell stacks with Boost.

[Petrocorus]

Huh. You appear to be correct. No clue what I was looking at before. I thought I googled devils to double check and the first one I saw had SLAs as qualities, but I appear to be wrong on that one. My mistake.
Even if SLA were Special Qualities and not Special Attacks, "The Specific Trumps The General" rule applies. And since, as quoted, there is a specific rule in the Warlock description saying it is possible, it is.


Okay so to be clear ALL Invocations are SLAs correct? And quoting Complete Arcane

Yes, they are.



So that means I could take either Ability Focus or Boost Spell-Like Ability for the invocations Baleful Utterance or Word of Changing correct?

Yes, you can. Though i'm doubtful about the relevance to take it for Baleful Utterance, it is certainly helpful with Word of Changing.

[Marlowe]

Plenty of reasons why you might want a boosted save DC for Baleful Utterance.

Continuing my overuse of the word "funny", Warlocks are a funny class when it comes to feats. All the best ones for them are stashed away in odd books that generally weren't written for Warlocks in mind (Mortalsbane is another Warlock Must-have from BoVD). And for every one you'll find somebody who argues that either it doesn't work for warlocks, or that they can't take it, usually on grounds that have nothing to do with any rule written anywhere.

[Troacctid]

On the contrary, I'd argue that two of the best feats for Warlocks are Extra Invocation and Obtain Familiar, both from Complete Arcane.

[Marlowe]

Extra Invocation I consider almost completely useless, since it can only be used to pick up extra invocations of a lower level than the highest allowed. So the only feat slots you can use it on are 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th and 18th.

6th you want Maximise SLA.
9th you might want it for Eldritch Glaive if that's allowed.
12th you want a crafting feat.
15th you want Quicken SLA
18th the campaign's over. If it isn't, another crafting feat.

As for Obtain Familiar. Well. I usually trade out my familiar for something else when I have one. Imagine how I feel about paying a valuable feat to get one.

[TypoNinja]

Extra Invocation I consider almost completely useless, since it can only be used to pick up extra invocations of a lower level than the highest allowed. So the only feat slots you can use it on are 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th and 18th.

6th you want Maximise SLA.
9th you might want it for Eldritch Glaive if that's allowed.
12th you want a crafting feat.
15th you want Quicken SLA
18th the campaign's over. If it isn't, another crafting feat.

As for Obtain Familiar. Well. I usually trade out my familiar for something else when I have one. Imagine how I feel about paying a valuable feat to get one.

I donnou, there's a lot of really nice lesser invocations, I usually have trouble picking at that level. While I would agree that there are more feats you want to take than feats you can take I've had a couple of times where I've thought about the extra invocation. Usually I end up slapping the Fey Heritage feats on a warlock though.

[Marlowe]

Lesser Invocations are where you really would like more than three, agreed.

However, by the level you could actually get an extra one or two using the feat, you have better options for your feat slots.

If you could use the feat to get extra invocations of the highest level you could use, it would certainly be worth it. The problem is that they essentially used the same wording for "Extra Invocation" as for "Extra Spell" without considering that a class with essentially only four spell "levels" interacts differently with such feats than a class with nine does.

[nedz]

Mortalbane is, on average, only +7 damage to 5 attacks per day.
Maximise SLA only works 3 times per day.

In general more damage < more options.

Also the Least and Lesser invocations are more interesting than the Greaters and Darks. If you compare Least Invocations to many other feats then they are solid purchases.

If you take the Heritage feat route then those fill your 1st and 9th level slots, well maybe your 3rd too, since the other options are poor; otherwise you should go for more options.

You are also ignoring the 2 level Chameleon dip where you typically use the floating feat for Crafting/Extra Invocation.

[Necroticplague]

So be fair, that list of feats is good for a more general warlock. For some builds, you'd go with something else.

Like my warlock's feats typically go something like this:

1:Improved unarmed strike
3:Eldritch Claws
6:superior unarmed strike
9:Beast Strike
12:Improved Natural Attack (unarmed)
15:Rapidstrike (Claws)
18:Snap Kick

[Marlowe]

Mortalbane you take at low level. At which point that 2d6 damage 5 times a day is quite significant. I'd also argue that being able to alpha-strike 3/day is an option.

It would be truely strange the number of spellcasters who take the likes of Empower Spell and Arcane Thesis, and who make specific racial choices to make these feats easier to use, if more damage was not considered a good idea.

I didn't consider the chameleon dip deliberately. It has special requirements that make it something your DM has to specifically enable. I don't consider such things when speaking in isolation.

Perhaps you could be more specific as to which Least Invocations are worth the feat to take at levels 6 and 9? The ones that you wouldn't already have? Similarly, which Lesser Invocations are worth it at Level 12 as opposed to being able to make a wand of anything you want?

EDIT: All this said. I do like the Fey heritage chain. Except for Fey Power which doesn't seem to do a lot of anything.

[nedz]

Mortalbane you take at low level. At which point that 2d6 damage 5 times a day is quite significant. I'd also argue that being able to alpha-strike 3/day is an option.

It would be truely strange the number of spellcasters who take the likes of Empower Spell and Arcane Thesis, and who make specific racial choices to make these feats easier to use, if more damage was not considered a good idea.

I didn't consider the chameleon dip deliberately. It has special requirements that make it something your DM has to specifically enable. I don't consider such things when speaking in isolation.

Perhaps you could be more specific as to which Least Invocations are worth the feat to take at levels 6 and 9? The ones that you wouldn't already have? Similarly, which Lesser Invocations are worth it at Level 12 as opposed to being able to make a wand of anything you want?

EDIT: All this said. I do like the Fey heritage chain. Except for Fey Power which doesn't seem to do a lot of anything.

The fact that many spellcasters take Empower Spell doesn't alter the fact that more damage is the least useful thing for casters to focus on, with the exception of mailman type builds where you are going for overwhelming amounts of damage.

Craft Wand is a good choice of feat since it opens up more options, however wands are cheap and so you are choosing a feat which can be replaced by WBL. As to which least invocations to take, well that depends upon what you are trying to do. Lets take one of the mediocre Least Invocations: Leaps and Bounds. This gives +6 to three skills, now compare that to the standard skill based feats which offer +2/+2 or +3. Now there are stronger least invocations, and there are certainly stronger feats, but even this is 4.5 to 6 times better.

I like the Fey heritage chain too, but Fey Presence seems weak: Charm Monster is useful, Deep Slumber doesn't scale and Disguise Self is a cheap Wand.

[Snowbluff]

Continuing my overuse of the word "funny", Warlocks are a funny class when it comes to feats. All the best ones for them are stashed away in odd books that generally weren't written for Warlocks in mind (Mortalsbane is another Warlock Must-have from BoVD). And for every one you'll find somebody who argues that either it doesn't work for warlocks, or that they can't take it, usually on grounds that have nothing to do with any rule written anywhere.

Mhm. Drow of the Underdark has a lot of good stealth feats for Warlocks who have the Darkness Invocation.

[Chronos]

For what it's worth, unicorns (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/unicorn.htm) have their spell-like abilities under Special Qualities, so it's at least possible. But those abilities are Detect Evil, Greater Teleport, and some healing, none of which is offensive (well, except the cures against undead). Creatures with spell-like abilities almost always have at least one offensive one on the list, in which case they're always listed under special attacks.

And while Obtain Familiar isn't nearly as juicy on a warlock as it is on a skillmonkey or gish, it's still quite a good use of a feat. Familiars, even unimproved ones, can do a lot.

[Petrocorus]

9th you might want it for Eldritch Glaive if that's allowed.

You might be referring to Eldritch Claws, Eldritch Glaive is an Invocation.



12th you want a crafting feat.

Are there many people who go for the crafterlock route without dipping Chameleon? Not rhetorical, really asking about your experiences.



If you could use the feat to get extra invocations of the highest level you could use, it would certainly be worth it. The problem is that they essentially used the same wording for "Extra Invocation" as for "Extra Spell" without considering that a class with essentially only four spell "levels" interacts differently with such feats than a class with nine does.
Yeah, the Warlock, IMHO, is a very good idea poorly executed, like so many others. The writers seem to have been very afraid that it would be over-powered because the abilities were "at will". They valued that far too much, like the Full BAB, completely overlooking that the 4-encounters-per-day guideline was seen as an absolute rule by many players and that between (focused) specialisation, bonus spells, and summoned SLA, the average wizard was not running out of spell slots often.

[Optimator]

Extra Invocation I consider almost completely useless, since it can only be used to pick up extra invocations of a lower level than the highest allowed. So the only feat slots you can use it on are 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th and 18th.

6th you want Maximise SLA.
9th you might want it for Eldritch Glaive if that's allowed.
12th you want a crafting feat.
15th you want Quicken SLA
18th the campaign's over. If it isn't, another crafting feat.

As for Obtain Familiar. Well. I usually trade out my familiar for something else when I have one. Imagine how I feel about paying a valuable feat to get one.

I can think of few single feats with more power than a Warlock taking Extra Invocation. The utility an Invocation can provide can be huge, ESPECIALLY compared to almost every other feat out there.

[nedz]

You might be referring to Eldritch Claws, Eldritch Glaive is an Invocation.

Or Extra Invocation (Eldritch Glaive) since this is most useful when BAB > 5

[Socratov]

Extra Invocation I consider almost completely useless, since it can only be used to pick up extra invocations of a lower level than the highest allowed. So the only feat slots you can use it on are 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th and 18th.

6th you want Maximise SLA.
9th you might want it for Eldritch Glaive if that's allowed.
12th you want a crafting feat.
15th you want Quicken SLA
18th the campaign's over. If it isn't, another crafting feat.

As for Obtain Familiar. Well. I usually trade out my familiar for something else when I have one. Imagine how I feel about paying a valuable feat to get one.
crafting without chameleon? Daring...

However, empower is next to useless, quicken is good, but mostly when using low level invocations. If you really use your EB that much to warrant Quicken blast, then a vanilla blast is ok, I guess.

I would take extra options in the form of invocations over those any time (and get something else for lvl 3).

that, or focus on corpsecrafter feats for the Walk the Dead invocation.

So be fair, that list of feats is good for a more general warlock. For some builds, you'd go with something else.

Like my warlock's feats typically go something like this:

1:Improved unarmed strike
3:Eldritch Claws
6:superior unarmed strike
9:Beast Strike
12:Improved Natural Attack (unarmed)
15:Rapidstrike (Claws)
18:Snap Kick
that is great for a specific application of warlock, very specific I might add, with some liberties concerning access to Dragon Magazine. A warlock, however, can do so much more then be a glaive-/clawlock. There is crafting, necromancy, charming, and a lto of other stuff they can do. For which Extra Invocation can be very useful to round out the options.

[Troacctid]

Craft Wondrous Item is so much more versatile than all the other crafting feats that you only really need the one. You won't be the ultimate craft monkey, but it's still a tremendously good feat for a straight Warlock.

Extra Invocation is sweet. A lot of characters would jump at the chance to get a giant bonus to all their social skills, or gain scent or blindsense*, or get a permanent 20% miss chance, or even take a two-feat chain for Hide in Plain Sight. And that's before you even get to lesser invocations.

*Okay, you can't get blindsense from a least invocation, but you can get it from Obtain Familiar (Bat).

[Marlowe]

The fact that many spellcasters take Empower Spell doesn't alter the fact that more damage is the least useful thing for casters to focus on, with the exception of mailman type builds where you are going for overwhelming amounts of damage.

Craft Wand is a good choice of feat since it opens up more options, however wands are cheap and so you are choosing a feat which can be replaced by WBL. As to which least invocations to take, well that depends upon what you are trying to do. Lets take one of the mediocre Least Invocations: Leaps and Bounds. This gives +6 to three skills, now compare that to the standard skill based feats which offer +2/+2 or +3. Now there are stronger least invocations, and there are certainly stronger feats, but even this is 4.5 to 6 times better.


OK. This invocation (leaps and bounds) is made pretty much obsolete by Fell Flight. Which you get access to at the same time as you could gain L&B as an Extra Invocation. If you want L&B you take it early and swap it out at 6th. You most certainly don't wait until 6th and waste a feat to get it just when its about to become irrelevant.

You talk about Casters and Options. Well, being able to Maximise your main attack, like I said. IS an option. Most Least Invocations generally don't bring a lot more options. Mostly what they do is give better numbers here and there. The exceptions, like Baleful Utterance, are things you probably already have.


You might be referring to Eldritch Claws, Eldritch Glaive is an Invocation.


Are there many people who go for the crafterlock route without dipping Chameleon? Not rhetorical, really asking about your experiences.


We are discuss what invocations it is worth using the FEAT Extra Invovation to gain. No. I am not referring to Eldritch Claws.

My experience is that I cannot rely on DMs slotting a special subplot into their campaigns just to enable my build. Which is what Chameleon entails. Great when you can get it, sure. But it's not as though crafting feats stop working without it and it's not as though you can use Imbue Item without them.

Truth to tell; the Chameleon dip is a perfect example of my original point. A good option for Warlocks that doesn't seem to have been designed for them, in a book that's got nothing to do with them, that you'll probably have to go through some wrangling in order to get.

Beguiling Influence might be a good choice for a Least you might have not picked up as one of the first three. Dark One's Own Luck might be worth it if you have a good Charisma (not a given). Most of the rest strike me as things you'd be better off looking for items and wands to duplicate.

Again, we're not looking at this from a point of view of value in a vacuum. We're looking at this from the point of view of a 6st level warlock who already has three Leasts. It's not "Is this Least Invocation useful?" its "Is this Invocation worth using a feat to get at 6th level or higher when I already have certain other abilities and options?". In particular, using a Feat to pick up a situational 20% miss chance strikes me as gambling against yourself. Especially since you can just buy an item to do it for you by that stage.

[Marlowe]

Sorry, but I can't believe I missed this.

crafting without chameleon? Daring...



that, or focus on corpsecrafter feats for the Walk the Dead invocation.


You're going to make augmented Undead who can be taken from your control the first time you run into an enemy spellcaster. You have no way of reestablishing control once this happens. And you're calling somebody else daring for taking a crafting feat.:smalleek:

Anyway. Just to save any further vagueness about "Options", let's see what Extra Invocation actually gives you.

Possible uses for Extra Invocation at level 6-9-ie, Least Invocations.

Baleful Utterance-Very good. But you should have this already.
Beguiling Influence-Worthwhile if you're trying to operate as a Face. Campaign and build situational.
Breath of the Night-Level 2 spell effect. Buy the wand. Better yet, buy a wand for a better spell.
Dark One's Own Luck-OK if you have good Charisma. And get lucky about which save you're going to boost.
Darkness-Garbage.
Devil's Sight-Too similar to the generally more useful See the Unseen.
Earthen Grasp-More Garbage. Underpowered at low level, even more underpowered at this level.
Eldritch Glaive-Good. And for once you have excellent reason not to have picked this one early.
Eldritch Spear-I like it. But then I would normally have it already.
Entropic Warding-Level 1 spell effect. Again, buy the wand. The "Can't be tracked by scent" special never comes up. It also doesn't stop you being detected by scent.
Frightful Blast-Not considered worth it at level 1. Let alone here.
Hideous Blow-...:smallsigh:
Leaps and Bounds-Or you can fly instead.
Miasmic Cloud-Debuff your own party. Marvelous. This is, let's face it, a choice for NPCs.
See the Unseen-You should have this already. It's usually what you trade Spiderwalk out for.
Sickening Blast-See Frightful Blast.
Spiderwalk-Again: or you can fly. As with L&B you pick this up early and trade it out.
Summon Swarm-The time for this is long past.

Extra Invocations available at level 12-15-ie, Lesser Invocations. Here we have more competition in every sense.

Beshadowed Blast, Brimstone Blast, Deteriorating Blast...-All of these have already been rendered obsolete by Vitriolic Blast. Beshadowed is probably my favourite but targets a common strong save; so very hit-and-miss.You might want to pick up Brimstone or Hellrime to get into Hellfire Warlock.
Charm-Getting close to the point where enchantment-type abilities are becoming pointless. Should have picked this up earlier.
Curse of Despair-OK. If you want. Level 3 Cleric/lvl 4 Wiz spell effect.Not impressive at this level.
Dread Seizure-Less impressive at this level
Eldritch Chain-Nifty. Somewhat situational. Not required.
Fell Flight-Don't you have this already?
Flee the Scene-I'll just pick up a D-Door wand, thanks. Or make one.
Hungry Darkness-Darkness and Batswarms. At what? Level 12?:smalleek:.
Ignore the Pyre-I'm sure there's better ways of getting an elemental resistence.
Spider-shape-That's nice and creepy. Not spending a feat on it though.
Stony Grasp-Not good enough.
Sudden Swarm-Again. That's nice and creepy. But I'll leave this for the NPCs.
The Dead Walk-Warlocks have some serious weaknesses when it comes to necromancy. If you've gone this long without missing this you probably don't need it. And again, could always get or make a wand.
Voidsense-Not bad. Worth a feat? :smallconfused:
Voracious Dispelling-I probably have this already.
Walk Unseen-Again. Level 2 spell effect. Buy/Make wand.
Wall of Gloom-As above. Need ditto marks.
Weighty Utterance-Could have some fun with this; but awfully situational.

In generally, Warlock Invocations after the first few levels are underpowered for level and get increasingly more so. . Least Invocations are level 1-2 effects. Not bad. Lessers are 2-4 level effects. Less good. As the game goes on, Warlocks get progressively less impressive. Spending feats on Extra Invocation to get abilities already largely superceded just aggravates this.

[ShurikVch]

What precedence? In every 3.5 statblock I've seen, spell-like abilities are listed under Special Attacks rather than Special Qualities. (The same applies to most 3.0 statblocks, though there are occasional exceptions - mostly when the creature has only a few harmless SLAs, like the aoa's detect magic from Fiend Folio, and even this seems to have gone away in 3.5 (see: lantern archon).) If you've got another source, I'm curious, but right now I can't find any evidence for SLAs being special qualities. Actually, SLA may be either SA or SQ: if you use it against someone, it's clearly a SA (Eldritch Blast, Baleful Utterance); if not, it may be a SQ (Dark One's Own Luck, See the Unseen)

[nedz]

OK. This invocation (leaps and bounds) is made pretty much obsolete by Fell Flight. Which you get access to at the same time as you could gain L&B as an Extra Invocation. If you want L&B you take it early and swap it out at 6th. You most certainly don't wait until 6th and waste a feat to get it just when its about to become irrelevant.

Yes I know this. I just chose this invocation because it's readily quantifiable.