Any martial character vs a level 20 moon druid

[Eslin]

From the other thread, I'm actually kind of curious what kind of martial character could kill a moon druid and how. Let's say there's a level 20 human moon druid using normal point buy rules, strength 8 dexterity 8 constitution 20 intelligence 12 wisdom 20 charisma 13, resilient (constitution), war caster and observant feats. Skills are perception, stealth, athletics, deception and insight and equipment is a wooden breastplate, shield, divine focus and a few bags with items like ropes and crowbars in them. Spellcasting wise, the druid prepares generally useful spells, telling you the exact list would leave the rules open to being gamed.

The druid and the martial character are aware they need to kill each other for whatever reasons. They know the other is in the area, though not exactly where, and are in an area with some forest, a few rivers, a large hill or two and an abandoned quarry. The druid casts foresight on himself, turns into a bird or air elemental and begins flying around, searching for the martial character. The druid uses one of five predetermined strategies, based on what will work best, and it if seems like one strategy is not useful or is proving harmful will attempt to escape and heal up before returning and using a different one. What kind of martial character could beat the druid? General characters preferred, but if you need to create a character solely built to kill the druid, feel free. What kind of strategies could a martial character beat? Could any beat all 5?

Note that you do not need to actually build the character - I noted what the druids stats were for clarity, but you can just say 'battlemaster fighter with a greatsword' if you want.


The druid, who has no reason not to spend his day wild shaped, floats 120 feet in the air as an air elemental. He uses his action to cast moonbeam or call lightning with a sixth level spell slot, dealing 6d10 damage per round and in future turns uses his action to move it onto the enemy, using his bonus actions to refresh wild shape and his pool of 90 ablative hit points.

If he thinks flying will not work he turns into an earth elemental and drops below the surface of the earth. He uses tremorsense to make sure he won't come out near you, and every turn he pops out of the ground, throws cantrips at you, and returns below ground until it's his turn again.

The druid casts conjure woodland beings with a fourth or sixth level spell slot (fourth if he has tried the air kiting strategy) and has the 8/16 pixies he summoned polymorph you into a small harmless animal (wisdom save) and hold you still. The pixies who didn't cast polymorph on you cast it on themselves, turn into burrowing creatures (say, giant badgers) and he turns himself into an earth elemental, and for the next 55 minutes they a giant pit and then put you in a bag at the bottom of it and fill it back in again. He then dismisses the conjuration spell, casts move earth instead, and stacks a huge amount more on top of you, then turns into an earth elemental and attacks you while you're choking to death.

The druid relies on foresight giving him advantage on attack rolls and you disadvantage on them, casts stoneskin on himself, turns into a mammoth and relies on the ability to constantly wild shape to restore hp in order to beat you in a straight fight.

The druid uses up its remaining high level slots to cast the most powerful conjure animals spells it can, summoning hordes of wolves and dire wolves if you can't fly or escape and hordes of axe beaks and giant eagles if you can. It flies around as an air elemental, using its next highest spells to summon more if you manage to kill them.

[Perseus]

So by martial do you mean no spell casting or do you mean anything that primarily doesn't rely on spells (a la partial casters like Paladin/Ranger).

Paladin, Ranger, and Monk are all partial casters as is some subclasses. If your primary way of dealing with a problem is with magic then I don't think you count as a martial.

If this is too much of a handicap then perhaps we should look at why not using magic is such a handicap.

[Z3ro]

Elemental monk defeats the druid almost effortlessly, only requiring to take the fly ability, which they probably would anyway. Then just stun-lock to victory.

[Morukai]

Elemental monk defeats the druid almost effortlessly, only requiring to take the fly ability, which they probably would anyway. Then just stun-lock to victory.

Okay monkey-boy, you're gonna stunlock a Druid with 20+ Con, that you're disadvantaged on every attack against, who has advantage on all attacks against you and advantage on every save. Good luck with that.

Not to mention in Air Elemental form, he can outfly you with his 90 fly speed vs your 60 and toss lightning at you every round from a distance.

[Perseus]

Elemental monk defeats the druid almost effortlessly, only requiring to take the fly ability, which they probably would anyway. Then just stun-lock to victory.

What's the fly speed on the monk and is it a concentration ability?

How does the monk find the druid?

Isn't stun lock a constitution save? This druid has +11 in normal form (proficiency + mod) that makes stunning this guy not as reliable as stunning other casters.

The monk has the best chance, however the monk is not a martial but a caster at its base so really your answer is "a type of caster can beat this caster".

[hymer]

Okay monkey-boy, you're gonna stunlock a Druid with 20+ Con, that you're disadvantaged on every attack against, who has advantage on all attacks against you and advantage on every save. Good luck with that.

Also, if the monk has pre-cast Fly, then the druid can have summoned pixies. That's eight Dispel Magics cast by individual invisible, flying spell batteries just to ruin your day, even if you do manage to stun the druid for a round.

[silveralen]

Intial critiscim: Well, you are giving him the highly abusive "switch from animal to animal" which makes things a pain to start with. Remove that from the equation and it gets doable. Since its pretty obvious cheese no same DM with a decent grasp of the game would allow, given that the Druid has an already established method of healing in wild shape form and what the Druid can do is clearly spelled out (extend form, revert, etc), It's DM fiat since it is never stated one way or another, but the insanity of 100+ HP each turn for a bonus action makes it pretty obvious it wasn't intended.

That being said, sure I'll give it a shot.

1. Archer fighter can plink him down pretty easy. If the archer can dispel magic it gets even better, as he can remove the foresight during this stage of the battle, when the moon Druid is dealing pitiful damage per turn.

Honestly, if the Druid didn't have a con of 20 he'd be dead. Actually +3 heavy crossbow on a fighter with appropriate feats is a base 1d10+18 damage 9 times a round on action surge (eight normal, one bonus action). Toss in greater invisibility for advantage. That's an average 23.5 damage a hit, with advantage and a +11 to hit vs AC 15 and then a nice low AC because dumped dexterity and no decent armor prof, meaning it's quite likely every shot lands.

He is 120 ft up, so that's 12d6 damage (unless you rule he can shift mid fall, but yeah DM fiat can screw over an decent strategy. If you want the Druid to win as DM he does).

That brings the total to 253.5, enough to kill a normal Druid (who doesn't dump most stats while boosting con through the roof) though not a silly 20 CON optimized version. We only need 35 damage, so lets go with magic initiate hex+glyph of warding+baby kitten cheese (whoever is DMing this is obviously absurdly permissive, so I'm sure it works).

And that Druid has fallen to his death after being riddled with arrows. No need to continue.

Edit: actually, the falling doesn't really matter, at 120 ft in the air he can't get to earth and burrow in one turn, can't leave range in one turn, can't heal his Druid HP if he shifts, and (probably) can't cast a healing spell when falling unless the DM is just being difficult.

[Eslin]

Elemental monk defeats the druid almost effortlessly, only requiring to take the fly ability, which they probably would anyway. Then just stun-lock to victory.

How would they catch or beat the druid in scenarios 1 or 2?


So by martial do you mean no spell casting or do you mean anything that primarily doesn't rely on spells (a la partial casters like Paladin/Ranger).

Paladin, Ranger, and Monk are all partial casters as is some subclasses. If your primary way of dealing with a problem is with magic then I don't think you count as a martial.

If this is too much of a handicap then perhaps we should look at why not using magic is such a handicap.

Partial casters are allowed, I'll be interested to see if they have an easier time than the pure martial characters.

[Morukai]

Intial critiscim: Well, you are giving him the highly abusive "switch from animal to animal" which makes things a pain to start with. Remove that from the equation and it gets doable. Since its pretty obvious cheese no same DM with a decent grasp of the game would allow, given that the Druid has an already established method of healing in wild shape form and what the Druid can do is clearly spelled out (extend form, revert, etc), It's DM fiat since it is never stated one way or another, but the insanity of 100+ HP each turn for a bonus action makes it pretty obvious it wasn't intended.

That being said, sure I'll give it a shot.

1. Archer fighter can plink him down pretty easy. If the archer can dispel magic it gets even better, as he can remove the foresight during this stage of the battle, when the moon Druid is dealing pitiful damage per turn.

Honestly, if the Druid didn't have a con of 20 he'd be dead. Actually +3 heavy crossbow on a fighter with appropriate feats is a base 1d10+18 damage 9 times a round on action surge (eight normal, one bonus action). Toss in greater invisibility for advantage. That's an average 23.5 damage a hit, with advantage and a +11 to hit vs AC 15 and then a nice low AC because dumped dexterity and no decent armor prof, meaning it's quite likely every shot lands.

He is 120 ft up, so that's 12d6 damage (unless you rule he can shift mid fall, but yeah DM fiat can screw over an decent strategy. If you want the Druid to win as DM he does).

That brings the total to 253.5, enough to kill a normal Druid (who doesn't dump most stats while boosting con through the roof) though not a silly 20 CON optimized version. We only need 35 damage, so lets go with magic initiate hex+glyph of warding+baby kitten cheese (whoever is DMing this is obviously absurdly permissive, so I'm sure it works).

And that Druid has fallen to his death after being riddled with arrows. No need to continue.

2 words: Wind Wall

Edit: I'm assuming, of course, that if the druid knows he's fighting an archer, he won't fly up and present such an obvious target.

[Perseus]

2 words: Wind Wall

Hey this isn't the 3.5 subforum... Oh wait that still works...

:smalltongue:

Edit: also there is nothing that says a druid can't switch forms by using wildshape and the closest argument against it proves you can at least use wilshape while wildshaped and you don't have to let your wildshape expire. Until the devs change something there is nothing within the rules that says a druid can shift from mammoth to ape or whatever else.

Edit 2

Yeah the druid should know to take the underground approach against an archer... Sure a fighter could hold an action but then the druid just needs to come up invisible or out of sight before going back down.

[silveralen]

2 words: Wind Wall

Edit: I'm assuming, of course, that if the druid knows he's fighting an archer, he won't fly up and present such an obvious target.

Yeah, that one continuos wall along the ground will be helpful for protecting the flying Druid 120 ft in the air. Considering a medium sized creature can walk through it at no penalty, and the max height is 50 ft long, 1 ft thick, and 15ft high their is literally no angle that would actually work.


also there is nothing that says a druid can't switch forms by using wildshape and the closest argument against it proves you can at least use wilshape while wildshaped and you don't have to let your wildshape expire. Until the devs change something there is nothing within the rules that says a druid can shift from mammoth to ape or whatever else.

Nothing saying he can either. DM fiat. If you want idiotically OP Druids, enjoy them.

[Eslin]

Three things to get straight: One, shifting into a new form as a bonus action is how wild shape works. There is nothing in the rules, nothing at all, which indicates that you have to leave your previous form to switch into a new one.

Secondly: Nobody gets any magic items, neither the druid nor the caster. This isn't the old days, in late 3.x and in 4e druids were finally given the ability to have magical items while wildshaped, presumably on the grounds that an entire class finding magical items useless was stupid because they'd be either too weak without them or too strong if nobody had them. That said, the DMG isn't out yet, so we have a very limited supply of magic items for martials and none at all for casters, so for now we need to be magic itemless. It's unfair to assume the fighter gets a +3 lance when we don't know what form the druid's equivalent will take yet.

Third: I'll be playing devil's advocate, but I do want to see the martials win if they can. Limitations breed creativity, if there's a way to win it's probably pretty creative.


Intial critiscim: Well, you are giving him the highly abusive "switch from animal to animal" which makes things a pain to start with. Remove that from the equation and it gets doable. Since its pretty obvious cheese no same DM with a decent grasp of the game would allow, given that the Druid has an already established method of healing in wild shape form and what the Druid can do is clearly spelled out (extend form, revert, etc), It's DM fiat since it is never stated one way or another, but the insanity of 100+ HP each turn for a bonus action makes it pretty obvious it wasn't intended.

That being said, sure I'll give it a shot.

1. Archer fighter can plink him down pretty easy. If the archer can dispel magic it gets even better, as he can remove the foresight during this stage of the battle, when the moon Druid is dealing pitiful damage per turn.

Honestly, if the Druid didn't have a con of 20 he'd be dead. Actually +3 heavy crossbow on a fighter with appropriate feats is a base 1d10+18 damage 9 times a round on action surge (eight normal, one bonus action). Toss in greater invisibility for advantage. That's an average 23.5 damage a hit, with advantage and a +11 to hit vs AC 15 and then a nice low AC because dumped dexterity and no decent armor prof, meaning it's quite likely every shot lands.

He is 120 ft up, so that's 12d6 damage (unless you rule he can shift mid fall, but yeah DM fiat can screw over an decent strategy. If you want the Druid to win as DM he does).

That brings the total to 253.5, enough to kill a normal Druid (who doesn't dump most stats while boosting con through the roof) though not a silly 20 CON optimized version. We only need 35 damage, so lets go with magic initiate hex+glyph of warding+baby kitten cheese (whoever is DMing this is obviously absurdly permissive, so I'm sure it works).

And that Druid has fallen to his death after being riddled with arrows. No need to continue.

It isn't abusive, the druid gets the ability to assume the shape of a beast, there is absolutely no reason for him to need to leave beast shape to enter a different one. Seriously, it's legal, not sure why people get so hung up over it. And the druid already gets an unlimited supply of bonus HP forms either way. It's not DM fiat, it clearly works one way and making it work the other is houseruling. Where's the fighter getting the bonus attack on the heavy crossbow?

Additionally, why wouldn't the druid just cast wind wall? And how would the crossbow method work against a druid hiding out underneath the earth, popping up, throwing cantrips at the fighter, popping back down and refreshing their shape until the fighter died?

[Z3ro]

How would they catch or beat the druid in scenarios 1 or 2?


Scenario 1, cast fly and reach the druid. Use evasion and diamond soul to shrug off any spells cast. Use bonus action to reach the druid. Round 2, attack and stun-lock. If the druid runs, OA and follow, bonus action dashing, and stun-locking. Sure, it reduces your attacks from 4 to 3 (OA included), but the druid will fail a save 40% of the time, so you really only need 3 attacks to stun him.

Scenario 2, cast fly and turn invisible with empty body, it's a stale-mate. When he pops up, dash and stun-lock. If you never pops up, it's a draw.

[Eslin]

Scenario 1, cast fly and reach the druid. Use evasion and diamond soul to shrug off any spells cast. Use bonus action to reach the druid. Round 2, attack and stun-lock. If the druid runs, OA and follow, bonus action dashing, and stun-locking. Sure, it reduces your attacks from 4 to 3 (OA included), but the druid will fail a save 40% of the time, so you really only need 3 attacks to stun him.

Scenario 2, cast fly and turn invisible with empty body, it's a stale-mate. When he pops up, dash and stun-lock. If you never pops up, it's a draw.

For scenario 1, what do you do if he summons a bunch of creatures to attack you in the meanwhile? Giant eagles to grapple/attack or pixies to polymorph you?

For scenario 2, could the druid not pop his head above ground, summon a bunch of giant bats and pop back while he has them spread out and search for you? They have 60ft blindsight and the druid can speak to them with a level 1 spell.

[Jakinbandw]

Wait, when did monks become considered casters? Does that mean that they are a low tier caster in 3rd?

Anyway what does being an air elemental do as far as damage resistance goes? I'm thinking a some type of fighter with a magic bow. If he can cancel out the advantage he should be able to do enough damage to bring the Air elemental to 0 hp. At which point the druid falls and takes 12d6 falling damage. Now here is an interesting thing I noticed. When you hit 0 hp you fall unconscious. The only way to recover from being unconscious to to regain hp. The wording of wild shape does not state that the druid regains HP when returning to normal form, only that they revert to their original hp. By RAW they are still unconscious and will not regain HP for 1d4 hours. Then the fighter walks over and kills them to death.

Basically the fighter has 8 attacks to deal 90 damage, at which point the fight ends. I From what I've read, this is possible. But I don't have time to actually work out the probabilities.

Edit: Wind Wall only lasts for one minute, and you can't cast spells while wild shaped (Unless I missed something?).

[Perseus]

Nothing saying he can either. DM fiat. If you want idiotically OP Druids, enjoy them.

Wildshape gives the ability to assume the shape of a beast (or other form depending).

There is no DM Fiat at all, cry foul about it all you want but you are grasping at straws. Your argument boils down to yourself not liking something and twisting rules to your whim.

Your argument boils down to the following...

Hey, nothing says a fighter can't fly without magic by willing himself to evolve on the spot and grow bat wings ... So the fighter must be able to do this!

[silveralen]

Three things to get straight: One, shifting into a new form as a bonus action is how wild shape works. There is nothing in the rules, nothing at all, which indicates that you have to leave your previous form to switch into a new one.

Secondly: Nobody gets any magic items, neither the druid nor the caster. This isn't the old days, in late 3.x and in 4e druids were finally given the ability to have magical items while wildshaped, presumably on the grounds that an entire class finding magical items useless was stupid because they'd be either too weak without them or too strong if nobody had them. That said, the DMG isn't out yet, so we have a very limited supply of magic items for martials and none at all for casters, so for now we need to be magic itemless. It's unfair to assume the fighter gets a +3 lance when we don't know what form the druid's equivalent will take yet.

Third: I'll be playing devil's advocate, but I do want to see the martials win if they can. Limitations breed creativity, if there's a way to win it's probably pretty creative.

It isn't abusive, the druid gets the ability to assume the shape of a beast, there is absolutely no reason for him to need to leave beast shape to enter a different one. Seriously, it's legal, not sure why people get so hung up over it. And the druid already gets an unlimited supply of bonus HP forms either way. It's not DM fiat, it clearly works one way and making it work the other is houseruling. Where's the fighter getting the bonus attack on the heavy crossbow?

Additionally, why wouldn't the druid just cast wind wall? And how would the crossbow method work against a druid hiding out underneath the earth, popping up, throwing cantrips at the fighter, popping back down and refreshing their shape until the fighter died?

1. The rules are clearly written as to how wild shape works, I don't see it mention shifting into the same form you already have or shifting from form to form. Infinite 90 HP as a bonus action is very different than burning spell slots for it. Notably by the word infinite.

2. Wow, yeah I'm gonna pass. No magic items means Druid has resistance to all the martial's damage. Hey, we have a free DM guide, let the Druid use whatever he wants from there.

Like I said, ridiculously permissive DM with no common sense means crossbow expert gives a bonus action as part of the full attack. After all, it never specifically says when your bonus action has to take place.

How does a Druid refresh HP while underground? By shifting from earth elemental to earth elemental, without ever leaving earth elemental form, which somehow heals him despite his form being literally the same? Oh yeah, totally intended, not abusive rule lawyering at all. Wild shape is used to change form, I fail to see how you can wild shape into the form you already have.

[Perseus]

Wait, when did monks become considered casters? Does that mean that they are a low tier caster in 3rd?

Anyway what does being an air elemental do as far as damage resistance goes? I'm thinking a some type of fighter with a magic bow. If he can cancel out the advantage he should be able to do enough damage to bring the Air elemental to 0 hp. At which point the druid falls and takes 12d6 falling damage. Now here is an interesting thing I noticed. When you hit 0 hp you fall unconscious. The only way to recover from being unconscious to to regain hp. The wording of wild shape does not state that the druid regains HP when returning to normal form, only that they revert to their original hp. By RAW they are still unconscious and will not regain HP for 1d4 hours. Then the fighter walks over and kills them to death.

Basically the fighter has 8 attacks to deal 90 damage, at which point the fight ends. I From what I've read, this is possible. But I don't have time to actually work out the probabilities.

The base class, like the Paladin and Ranger has casting abilities. This isn't noncasting abilities that do awesome things but "spells/spellcasting by any other name".

So they have full HP but are unconscious because they have 0 HP? I call bologna and Schrödinger's HP. They get their original HP back and therefore not at 0 HP and not subject to unconsciousness.

You still need the fighter to find the druid which will be hard as hell. You need to be able to cancel out disadvantage, you need to be able to deal with swarms of summons, and you need to actually be able to hit underground druid. Flying in the air is the weakest strategy that the druid has (I keep forgetting about elemental wildshape).

[Jakinbandw]

The base class, like the Paladin and Ranger has casting abilities. This isn't noncasting abilities that do awesome things but "spells/spellcasting by any other name".

So they have full HP but are unconscious because they have 0 HP? I call bologna and Schrödinger's HP. They get their original HP back and therefore not at 0 HP and not subject to unconsciousness.

You still need the fighter to find the druid which will be hard as hell. You need to be able to cancel out disadvantage, you need to be able to deal with swarms of summons, and you need to actually be able to hit underground druid. Flying in the air is the weakest strategy that the druid has (I keep forgetting about elemental wildshape).

The Rules state you fall unconscious when you hit 0 hp. The rules of wildshape state that you Revert to your original hp when you transform. Unconsciousness is only removed by healing RAW. It doesn't matter what your hp is. And you don't heal, you REVERT. If shifting from one form to another is legal, then RAW so is this.

[Perseus]

1. The rules are clearly written as to how wild shape works, I don't see it mention shifting into the same form you already have or shifting from form to form. Infinite 90 HP as a bonus action is very different than burning spell slots for it. Notably by the word infinite.


How does a Druid refresh HP while underground? By shifting from earth elemental to earth elemental, without ever leaving earth elemental form, which somehow heals him despite his form being literally the same? Oh yeah, totally intended, not abusive rule lawyering at all. Wild shape is used to change form, I fail to see how you can wild shape into the form you already have.

1: And yet you get some weird ruling out of them...

2: Rules say you can extend the same form. However you would need to go to a different type of earth elemental (do they have those yet) in order to get the HP.

Question: What happens when you are an air elemental underground? You don't really have a body and air/gas can sit in pockets within the earth...

[Eslin]

Regarding shifting mid fall - it's fairly easy to figure out. Figure out what percentage of the fighter's turn remained when he got the druid to 0, work out how long it takes to fall 120 feet. If the fighter's turn finishes before he can hit the ground the druid starts his turn and can bonus action wild shape, otherwise the druid hits the ground for 12d6 damage. The druid will hit the ground in 2.7 seconds, so if taking him to 0 took 11/20 or less of the fighter's turn, the druid goes splat.


1. The rules are clearly written as to how wild shape works, I don't see it mention shifting into the same form you already have or shifting from form to form. Infinite 90 HP as a bonus action is very different than burning spell slots for it. Notably by the word infinite.

2. Wow, yeah I'm gonna pass. No magic items means Druid has resistance to all the martial's damage. Hey, we have a free DM guide, let the Druid use whatever he wants from there.

Like I said, ridiculously permissive DM with no common sense means crossbow expert gives a bonus action as part of the full attack. After all, it never specifically says when your bonus action has to take place.

How does a Druid refresh HP while underground? By shifting from earth elemental to earth elemental, without ever leaving earth elemental form, which somehow heals him despite his form being literally the same? Oh yeah, totally intended, not abusive rule lawyering at all. Wild shape is used to change form, I fail to see how you can wild shape into the form you already have.

Fair point for 2 - for all martials, we'll assume their weapons count as magical, seeing as we're guaranteed that will be the case at that level. And I'm not going to give the druid items until we actually get some druid items, so to make things fair we take magic items from everyone.

And crossbow expert only works with hand crossbows. And you can shift into a form you already have easily - as a human, I can alter self into a different human. Wild shaping to regain hp is easy (I mean you could just turn into something else underground, but eh), you turn into a different earth elemental. If you can shift between form to form, recreating the form you're already in is no big deal.

And regarding the wild shape rules - for the last time, it doesn't NEED to mention that you can shift from form to form. It says you can wild shape as a bonus action, and you retain that ability while wild shaped since you keep your class features. There is absolutely nothing to suggest any other interpretation.

[silveralen]

1: And yet you get some weird ruling out of them...

2: Rules say you can extend the same form. However you would need to go to a different type of earth elemental (do they have those yet) in order to get the HP.

Question: What happens when you are an air elemental underground? You don't really have a body and air/gas can sit in pockets within the earth...

I'm reasonably certain saying "uh.... no" when a player asks to wild shape from earth elemental to earth elemental isn't that weird. Not shifting from earth straight to air is debatable.

2. Well, Druid can only shift into the four classic, not other varieties, so that doesn't work.

DM discretion. The earth elemental is literally merged with the earth/rock/stone, meaning no such area may exist.


Regarding shifting mid fall - it's fairly easy to figure out. Figure out what percentage of the fighter's turn remained when he got the druid to 0, work out how long it takes to fall 120 feet. If the fighter's turn finishes before he can hit the ground the druid starts his turn and can bonus action wild shape, otherwise the druid hits the ground for 12d6 damage. The druid will hit the ground in 2.7 seconds, so if taking him to 0 took 11/20 or less of the fighter's turn, the druid goes splat.

That's an... Odd house rule. What if the fighter moves? How does time spent moving compare to time spent firing? Doesn't this imply a fighter who doesn't move spends more time with each shot?

The actual rules will be in the DM, and I can't say I like your version.

[Z3ro]

For scenario 1, what do you do if he summons a bunch of creatures to attack you in the meanwhile? Giant eagles to grapple/attack or pixies to polymorph you?

Can't summon pixies, can't use material components while wildshaped. As far as giant eagles go, a single fireball should take them all out. If not, you should easily be able to out-grapple them.



For scenario 2, could the druid not pop his head above ground, summon a bunch of giant bats and pop back while he has them spread out and search for you? They have 60ft blindsight and the druid can speak to them with a level 1 spell.

Fireballs again. It becomes a game of cat and mouse, favoring neither side.

[Eslin]

I'm reasonably certain saying "uh.... no" when a player asks to wild shape from earth elemental to earth elemental isn't that weird. Not shifting from earth straight to air is debatable.

2. Well, Druid can only shift into the four classic, not other varieties, so that doesn't work.

DM discretion. The earth elemental is literally merged with the earth/rock/stone, meaning no such area may exist.

For shifting into a different elemental, yeah that's DM discretion since where are you shifting to?

Regarding shifting from earth elemental to earth elemental - wild shape allows you to shift into a full hp animal or elemental. The reason you get new hp every time rather than keeping your old HP is you're shifting yourself into a new form. What form you were in doesn't matter, since there are no restrictions on what state the druid must be in to use wild shape. So each time you use it, you pick the form of your choice, and your old form ceases to matter. Which means there's absolutely no reason you can't turn from a mammoth into a different mammoth.


Can't summon pixies, can't use material components while wildshaped. As far as giant eagles go, a single fireball should take them all out. If not, you should easily be able to out-grapple them.

Fireballs again. It becomes a game of cat and mouse, favoring neither side.
I'd forgotten about the holly berry thing.

And the game of cat and mouse does not favour neither side - the druid has more spell slots available than the monk has ki to fireball with, and has an endless supply of hp refreshment that the monk does not. The druid seems to have a huge edge in terms of resource expenditure, and if he keeps the monk in combat the monk can't replenish ki.


IThat's an... Odd house rule. What if the fighter moves? How does time spent moving compare to time spent firing? Doesn't this imply a fighter who doesn't move spends more time with each shot?

The actual rules will be in the DM, and I can't say I like your version.
Mine was the only version that made sense. Figure out how long it will be until the druid hits the ground, figure out if his turn comes up before then. I basically just guessed regarding how to calculate how long it would be until the druid's turn, so input is welcome in that regard. How would you figure it out?

[Jakinbandw]

You can't cast spells while wildshaped


You can’t cast spells, and your ability to speak or
take any action that requires hands is limited to the
capabilities o f your beast form. Transforming doesn’t
break your concentration on a spell you’ve already
cast, however, or prevent you from taking actions that
are part o f a spell, such as call lightning, that you’ve
already cast.

Also takes a bonus action to unwildshape so any time the Druid wants to cast he has to be human for at least one full turn. Archer than has lots of fun!

[MaxWilson]

Intial critiscim: Well, you are giving him the highly abusive "switch from animal to animal" which makes things a pain to start with. Remove that from the equation and it gets doable. Since its pretty obvious cheese no same DM with a decent grasp of the game would allow

This is false. It's pretty obviously RAW even if you don't like it. It's the druid's capstone ability.

[Perseus]

The Rules state you fall unconscious when you hit 0 hp. The rules of wildshape state that you Revert to your original hp when you transform. Unconsciousness is only removed by healing RAW. It doesn't matter what your hp is. And you don't heal, you REVERT. If shifting from one form to another is legal, then RAW so is this.

This is most asinine thing I've heard in a while. Thank you for the laugh.

Other stuff:

Just because you think its weird or wrong doesn't mean it isn't RAW. The debate on the wildshape shifting has nothing to do with your personal feelings on it. Stop putting your RAI thumb into the RAW pie.

Also, just so people know about the whole air in earth... If there is soil then you have air pockets... There is a ton of soil vapor in the ground. The earth to air elemental thing is interesting though.

[Perseus]

You can't cast spells while wildshaped

Level 18 class feature (maybe 16?) gets around that issue.

[silveralen]

For shifting into a different elemental, yeah that's DM discretion since where are you shifting to?

Regarding shifting from earth elemental to earth elemental - wild shape allows you to shift into a full hp animal or elemental. The reason you get new hp every time rather than keeping your old HP is you're shifting yourself into a new form. What form you were in doesn't matter, since there are no restrictions on what state the druid must be in to use wild shape. So each time you use it, you pick the form of your choice, and your old form ceases to matter. Which means there's absolutely no reason you can't turn from a mammoth into a different mammoth.

That's your interpretation. Not mine certainly, and given that their are explicit rules for remaining the same type of creature (extending, not reshifting into another version of it) I wouldn't allow it. If you do... well I don't know why you want Druids to be OP but if it works for your table.

[Eslin]

You can't cast spells while wildshaped

Also takes a bonus action to unwildshape so any time the Druid wants to cast he has to be human for at least one full turn. Archer than has lots of fun!

That's a new level of not good at the rules. Check the druid's level 18 feature.

And regarding reverting from wild shape - you can do so as a bonus action, but there's no reason you can't just use wild shape again while you're wild shaped. Unlike most other transformation abilities, you keep your class abilities while wild shaped.


That's your interpretation. Not mine certainly, and given that their are explicit rules for remaining the same type of creature (extending, not reshifting into another version of it) I wouldn't allow it. If you do... well I don't know why you want Druids to be OP but if it works for your table.
That's not an interpretation. The rules say you can turn into an animal, they say you keep your class abilities in that form, and those class abilities involve the ability to use a bonus action to turn into an animal. Nowhere there does it say you can't do that if you're already an animal.

The infinite wildshape thing is stupid, so for my table they go from 2 wildshapes per rest to 6 as they level up and don't get infinite wildshape as a capstone because that benefits moon druids far more. Their capstone is instead the ability to cast control weather at will.

[Speaker]

Wait what about feats for the martial character? Maybe with mounted combat (flying mount like a Wyvern) and a Pole arm master and GWM it's possible.

[Eslin]

Wait what about feats for the martial character? Maybe with mounted combat (flying mount like a Wyvern) and a Pole arm master and GWM it's possible.

Pick whatever you want. Give a specific or general idea for a character and how he'd go about things, others pick holes in it, try again. If you think a certain combination of things would work, give it a shot.

[Perseus]

Wait what about feats for the martial character? Maybe with mounted combat (flying mount like a Wyvern) and a Pole arm master and GWM it's possible.

Druid (or summons) kill the mount?

[silveralen]

This is false. It's pretty obviously RAW even if you don't like it. It's the druid's capstone ability.

Something fun I just noticed: when explaining what wildshape does, the book switches between using the term creature and beast. The elemental wildshape doesn't have any language to overrule it.

So by a raw reading certain features of wildshape (for example, HP) only work with beast forms, not elemental forms.

Remind me again why we care about RAW over RAI?

[Eslin]

Something fun I just noticed: when explaining what wildshape does, the book switches between using the term creature and beast. The elemental wildshape doesn't have any language to overrule it.

So by a raw reading certain features of wildshape (for example, HP) only work with beast forms, not elemental forms.

Remind me again why we care about RAW over RAI?

We don't. We care about RaW up until it stops working, and then we consult RaI and whether changes will make the game more balanced and fun or less. Please note that constant shifting to maintain hit points is RaI, it's the clear use for the level 20 unlimited shifting capstone.

In this case, RaW is mostly clear, but if looked at from a specific angle things break down in a monks-aren't-proficient-in-unarmed-strikes kind of way, and we think 'what makes sense here?' And then we conclude that since every other transformation ability in the game including this one has you gain the creature's hit dice and hit points, you do here too.

[silveralen]

We don't. We care about RaW up until it stops working, and then we consult RaI and whether changes will make the game more balanced and fun or less. Please note that constant shifting to maintain hit points is RaI, it's the clear use for the level 20 unlimited shifting capstone.

In this case, RaW is mostly clear, but if looked at from a specific angle things break down in a monks-aren't-proficient-in-unarmed-strikes kind of way, and we think 'what makes sense here?' And then we conclude that since every other transformation ability in the game including this one has you gain the creature's hit dice and hit points, you do here too.

Really? Here I was thinking it could allow for the Druid to spend a turning changing from one elemental form to another, using a bonus action+action. Or allow a Druid knocked out of elemental form to change into a different one. Or just shift more than twice without taking a nap. Those are all obvious usages that are still as good or better than the capstones other classes get.

Currently the RAW reading is an absurdly powerful Druid who cannot be easily dealt with by any other class. Seriously, even other casters lack a good response (I've gone through the spell list, I've got non standard wish as one of the few decent options, or conjuring up an armies worth of creatures, but not much outside that). Other capstones aren't that good. The 9th level spell shape change can't do this.

In fact, if we use your "look at how other abilities work" approach, shape change seems to give a good method of handling the HP of someone shifting form to form. Since every other constant form jumping ability (all one of it) doesn't increase HP going from form to form, neither should wildshape. Oh, and different form is a nice touch as well on shape change.

[Jamesps]

My turn:

Rogue Assasin
Pretend to be a rich lost merchant/dashing man/fair maiden in need of help who's afraid of animals (auto 34 Deception with level 20 ability). Cower from the druid until he shifts back to comfort you, you poor poor soul. Wait for 8 hours. Then stab him to death.

Suprise round: Auto hit (using the rogue level 20) for 4d4+20d6+5 damage (about 85 damage) save or take double.
Next round: repeat for 45 damage.

If he failed his first save (DC 19) you win. If he succeeds, you lose but at least you're pretty much certain to take him down below half hp.

[Perseus]

Currently the RAW reading is an absurdly powerful Druid who cannot be easily dealt with by any other class. Seriously, even other casters lack a good response (I've gone through the spell list, I've got non standard wish as one of the few decent options, or conjuring up an armies worth of creatures, but not much outside that). Other capstones aren't that good. The 9th level spell shape change can't do this.


Hi, welcome to D&D.

Replace Druid with *Full Caster* and you pretty much have 3.5 and 5e in a nutshell because of how they made magic and how they didn't make everything else.

4e was a deviation from this, but in the wrong way (I love 4e btw). Though I do love me some 4e Druid, hot damn that was a great class. At will wildshape from level 1 and good casting all without being OP.

The 5e druid is a joke of what they could have made, a very very powerful joke, but a joke all the same.

[Eslin]

Really? Here I was thinking it could allow for the Druid to spend a turning changing from one elemental form to another, using a bonus action+action. Or allow a Druid knocked out of elemental form to change into a different one. Or just shift more than twice without taking a nap. Those are all obvious usages that are still as good or better than the capstones other classes get.

Currently the RAW reading is an absurdly powerful Druid who cannot be easily dealt with by any other class. Seriously, even other casters lack a good response (I've gone through the spell list, I've got non standard wish as one of the few decent options, or conjuring up an armies worth of creatures, but not much outside that). Other capstones aren't that good. The 9th level spell shape change can't do this.

In fact, if we use your "look at how other abilities work" approach, shape change seems to give a good method of handling the HP of someone shifting form to form. Since every other constant form jumping ability (all one of it) doesn't increase HP going from form to form, neither should wildshape. Oh, and different form is a nice touch as well on shape change.

Except they're two very different abilities. The current RaW meaning is how they meant it to be - they deliberately gave the druid unlimited wild shaping, they knew what would happen. The thing is, that's only one kind of power - being able to continuously replenish your HP is cool, but you're doing so by using your bonus actions to turn into a CR6 animal at best at a time when the party is fighting giant dragons, game balance wise it's not really an issue. It is very strong in one specific way (being dealt continuous hp damage) and has little effect in any other aspect, including whether or not your party survives.

[Easy_Lee]

Half-orc rogue assassin 12 / shadow monk 6 / fighter 2, feats include alert, mage slayer, and war caster, and sentinel. Dex is 20, and he has dueling which works with unaramed strikes. He stays hidden using pass without trace, great stealth, and high move speed. He locates the druid by looking up at the flier and staying close enough not to lose him. He waits until the druid begins a rest, or at least until foresight wears off.

At this point, we have reasonably guaranteed a full surprise round followed by likely winning initiative. The monk can cast darkness on himself to further guarantee advantage on attacks. Two rounds of sneak attack, 12 total attacks with one round of 8 guaranteed-crits, will kill the druid. If the druid tries to cast a spell as a reaction or run, the monk assassin reacts via mage slayer or sentinel to cast silence via shadow monk and war caster.

A rogue assassin 3 / barbarian 17 can do the same thing, but is less likely to get the opportunity.

[MaxWilson]

Something fun I just noticed: when explaining what wildshape does, the book switches between using the term creature and beast. The elemental wildshape doesn't have any language to overrule it.

So by a raw reading certain features of wildshape (for example, HP) only work with beast forms, not elemental forms.

Remind me again why we care about RAW over RAI?

Nice try. Restricting Wild Shape to require a reversion to human form before you can assume a new shape is neither RAW nor RAI. Whether or not Primal Strike applies to elemental forms (and I agree, by RAW it does not) isn't even germane.


Currently the RAW reading is an absurdly powerful Druid who cannot be easily dealt with by any other class. Seriously, even other casters lack a good response (I've gone through the spell list, I've got non standard wish as one of the few decent options, or conjuring up an armies worth of creatures, but not much outside that). Other capstones aren't that good. The 9th level spell shape change can't do this.

Try harder. Contagion (Flesh Rot) + Hex + Bestow Curse + Quickened Eldritch Blast + Quickened Scorching Ray (9th level) can do over 600 HP of damage per round, vaporizing the druid. Disabling spells like Confusion are another route, although one which is harder to analyze in closed form. Moonbeam is awesome for killing druids.


Currently the RAW reading is an absurdly powerful Druid who cannot be easily dealt with by any other class. Seriously, even other casters lack a good response (I've gone through the spell list, I've got non standard wish as one of the few decent options, or conjuring up an armies worth of creatures, but not much outside that). Other capstones aren't that good. The 9th level spell shape change can't do this.

This isn't true. Try casting Polymorph while Shapechange is active, and see what you get: a whole new pile of HP.

[Eslin]

Half-orc rogue assassin 12 / shadow monk 6 / fighter 2, feats include alert, mage slayer, and war caster, and sentinel. Dex is 20, and he has dueling which works with unaramed strikes. He stays hidden using pass without trace, great stealth, and high move speed. He locates the druid by looking up at the flier and staying close enough not to lose him. He waits until the druid begins a rest, or at least until foresight wears off.

At this point, we have reasonably guaranteed a full surprise round followed by likely winning initiative. The monk can cast darkness on himself to further guarantee advantage on attacks. Two rounds of sneak attack, 12 total attacks with one round of 8 guaranteed-crits, will kill the druid. If the druid tries to cast a spell as a reaction or run, the monk assassin reacts via mage slayer or sentinel to cast silence via shadow monk and war caster.

A rogue assassin 3 / barbarian 17 can do the same thing, but is less likely to get the opportunity.

Keep in mind the druid's passive perception is 31 (10+wis mod+proficiency+advantage+observant) - will the character be able to consistently roll above that? What's their stealth modifier?

[Sartharina]

Keep in mind the druid's passive perception is 31 (10+5+5+5+6) - will the character be able to consistently roll above that? What's their stealth modifier?

Where are those extra +5s coming from for the druid? They have +6 proficiency, and +5 wisdom.

[Eslin]

Where are those extra +5s coming from for the druid? They have +6 proficiency, and +5 wisdom.

The druid also has the observant feat (had 19 wisdom, figured I might as well use a feat to get to 20) and advantage (from foresight) grants +5 on passive perception checks.


That brings the total to 253.5, enough to kill a normal Druid (who doesn't dump most stats while boosting con through the roof) though not a silly 20 CON optimized version.

Just noticed this from ages ago. The druid dumped two stats, strength and dexterity, because when you can spend your entire time as an animal you don't need any. Gave him 12 int and 13 charisma even though he has no real use for them, and druids need only two stats (constitution and wisdom) to be effective, so I maximised them and spent the rest of the boosts on feats. Druids don't need any stat or feat particularly much, they're very forgiving. But that isn't silly - any druid will have 20 con by level 20, you're not really spending it on anything else.

[silveralen]

Except they're two very different abilities. The current RaW meaning is how they meant it to be - they deliberately gave the druid unlimited wild shaping, they knew what would happen. The thing is, that's only one kind of power - being able to continuously replenish your HP is cool, but you're doing so by using your bonus actions to turn into a CR6 animal at best at a time when the party is fighting giant dragons, game balance wise it's not really an issue. It is very strong in one specific way (being dealt continuous hp damage) and has little effect in any other aspect, including whether or not your party survives.

Right, constant regeneration of 100+ damage a turn for infinity as a bonus action isn't very strong and is totally in keeping with other capstones. I mean, compare it to getting two level 3 spells that recharge on short rest like wizard, extra attack like fighter, or paladin's once a day regen 10 for a minute with a couple of a nice riders for spells. God forbid we compare it to the bad capstones, like rogue's or ranger's.

It's obviously not intended because it there is such a huge gap in power between it and every other capstone. Between ti and every other similar ability. Between it and... everything.

[Perseus]

Right, constant regeneration of 100+ damage a turn for infinity as a bonus action isn't very strong and is totally in keeping with other capstones. I mean, compare it to getting two level 3 spells that recharge on short rest like wizard, extra attack like fighter, or paladin's once a day regen 10 for a minute with a couple of a nice riders for spells. God forbid we compare it to the bad capstones, like rogue's or ranger's.

It's obviously not intended because it there is such a huge gap in power between it and every other capstone. Between ti and every other similar ability. Between it and... everything.


Seriously? Wow what blind faith you have.

You are still putting tour RAI finger into the RAW pie.

For all we know these devs did the same thing as the 3.0 devs. They over valued non-caster abilities (multiple attacks) and had very little value for magical abilities such as wildshape.

[Eslin]

Right, constant regeneration of 100+ damage a turn for infinity as a bonus action isn't very strong and is totally in keeping with other capstones. I mean, compare it to getting two level 3 spells that recharge on short rest like wizard, extra attack like fighter, or paladin's once a day regen 10 for a minute with a couple of a nice riders for spells. God forbid we compare it to the bad capstones, like rogue's or ranger's.

It's obviously not intended because it there is such a huge gap in power between it and every other capstone. Between ti and every other similar ability. Between it and... everything.

Not really. Barring crappy capstones like the rangers, it equals quite a few others. The wizard doesn't need a strong capstone because their spells are the true capstone (even the druid doesn't approach what the wizard gets), and you're sorely underestimating the paladin's capstone. Nominating a random one the paladin gets a 30 foot aura of 4d10 psychic damage, shrouding (disadvantage on enemy attacks) for the entire party and a bonus action 3d10 attack against anyone in the aura. A barbarian gets a flat +4 to their strength and constitution, which is amazing in its own way.

The druid's capstone, if they're a moon druid, is very strong but is only strong in one way. The only way in which it is powerful is when someone is trying to kill you by chipping off your hp, it doesn't prevent incapacitation or just going for other party members. It has precisely one area of use, and so it is very strong in that area - as opposed to the cleric's, which is literal divine intervention and pays for it by being once per week. The druid's capstone is very strong in one particular area, and it isn't damage or control or any other area that will win you fights. The only thing it does is make one person very good at one area of defense, which at level 20 is not that great.

[Jamesps]

My turn:

Rogue Assasin
Pretend to be a rich lost merchant/dashing man/fair maiden in need of help who's afraid of animals (auto 34 Deception with level 20 ability). Cower from the druid until he shifts back to comfort you, you poor poor soul. Wait for 8 hours. Then stab him to death.

Suprise round: Auto hit (using the rogue level 20) for 4d4+20d6+5 damage (about 85 damage) save or take double.
Next round: repeat for 45 damage.

If he failed his first save (DC 19) you win. If he succeeds, you lose but at least you're pretty much certain to take him down below half hp.

Just realized, you could take the lucky feat to better the odds the druid failed the save (from 35% to 58%). If you convinced the druid to tie themselves up (I'll explain how to do this when you're older) that might stop him from wildshaping or casting somatic component spells too.

[Ghost Nappa]

Is multi-classing allowed so long as the build doesn't use caster levels (Wizard, Warlock, Druid, Cleric, Bard)?

Edit: I will return to this challenge later on today or tomorrow, but for right now I do not have the time to go tit-for-tat.

[Eslin]

Is multi-classing allowed so long as the build doesn't use caster levels (Wizard, Warlock, Druid, Cleric, Bard)?

Of course it is. Feel free to use as many caster levels as you want as well, just be aware that the more you use the less you defeating the druid has a point - we know there are probably a heap of ways for a level 20 wizard to beat a druid.

[MaxWilson]

Pick whatever you want. Give a specific or general idea for a character and how he'd go about things, others pick holes in it, try again. If you think a certain combination of things would work, give it a shot.

I'm assuming that a Valor Bard doesn't count as a martial despite having two attacks, right?

In that case, here's one approach that might work about half the time:

Eldritch Knight with Disguise Self, Tasha's Uncontrollable Laughter, Confusion and Hypnotic Pattern and Lucky/Sharpshooter feat. The objective is to kill him while he's still in scenario #1. Your spells have DC 19, typically with disadvantage. He saves at +11.

The way this will go is that you Disguise Self as a fighter with a greatsword (probably tactically irrelevant, but could cause him to underestimate you). Then when he gets close, you shoot him with arrows for a round. Next round, he'll be back at full HP, so you cast Confusion (he has a 42.25% chance of making his save-with-disadvantage) and shoot another arrow, then Action Surge and spray him with arrows, using Lucky as necessary to ensure that you get enough hits to knock him out of Air Elemental form. Action Surge again next round.

Assuming we're in the 42.25% of the time where the druid fails his save, you'll get 13 attacks against him for 20.5 points of damage per hit (I'm assuming access to a +1 longbow here), and he'll also take 12d6 from falling damage.

...yeah, I don't think that's going to work. 280-ish damage isn't enough to kill the druid (he's got roughly 200 HP, plus another 100-ish from air elemental form), and Confusion also doesn't have enough range to reach him when he's floating 120 feet up. I'll post this anyway just to highlight it as a failed attempt.

[Giant2005]

Restricting Wild Shape to require a reversion to human form before you can assume a new shape is neither RAW nor RAI.

Actually technically, the RAW is that you need to be in human form to be able to use the Wild Shape ability.
I don't know about RAI (None of us do unless we have contacted the writers and asked them their intentions but the bolded part of the following clause within the Wild Shape description doesn't enable double-wildshaping as claimed: "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."
If you want to shift from animal to animal, first you have to demonstrate that that animal is physically capable of Wild Shaping into another form. I don't have a huge amount of knowledge regarding the animal kingdom but I am unaware of any that are physically capable of metamorphosis.

[Eslin]

Actually technically, the RAW is that you need to be in human form to be able to use the Wild Shape ability.
I don't know about RAI (None of us do unless we have contacted the writers and asked them their intentions but the bolded part of the following clause within the Wild Shape description doesn't enable double-wildshaping as claimed: "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."
If you want to shift from animal to animal, first you have to demonstrate that that animal is physically capable of Wild Shaping into another form. I don't have a huge amount of knowledge regarding the animal kingdom but I am unaware of any that are physically capable of metamorphosis.

That means the animal needs to be physically capable of performing the actions required, not that the animal has to be physically capable of magical abilities in the wild. After all, one of the features of wild shape is allowing you to revert to your original form, and there are no animals capable of transforming into a human. By your reading of the spell, characters in wild shape are incapable of turning back.


I'm assuming that a Valor Bard doesn't count as a martial despite having two attacks, right?

In that case, here's one approach that might work about half the time:

Eldritch Knight with Disguise Self, Tasha's Uncontrollable Laughter, Confusion and Hypnotic Pattern and Lucky/Sharpshooter feat. The objective is to kill him while he's still in scenario #1. Your spells have DC 19, typically with disadvantage. He saves at +11.

The way this will go is that you Disguise Self as a fighter with a greatsword (probably tactically irrelevant, but could cause him to underestimate you). Then when he gets close, you shoot him with arrows for a round. Next round, he'll be back at full HP, so you cast Confusion (he has a 42.25% chance of making his save-with-disadvantage) and shoot another arrow, then Action Surge and spray him with arrows, using Lucky as necessary to ensure that you get enough hits to knock him out of Air Elemental form. Action Surge again next round.

Assuming we're in the 42.25% of the time where the druid fails his save, you'll get 13 attacks against him for 20.5 points of damage per hit (I'm assuming access to a +1 longbow here), and he'll also take 12d6 from falling damage.

...yeah, I don't think that's going to work. 280-ish damage isn't enough to kill the druid (he's got roughly 200 HP, plus another 100-ish from air elemental form), and Confusion also doesn't have enough range to reach him when he's floating 120 feet up. I'll post this anyway just to highlight it as a failed attempt.
Druid has foresight which grants advantage on saves, that cancels out disadvantage. You get access to a +0 longbow (you'll have magical attacks by that stage regardless, but we can't give anyone items until the DMG comes out and evens out what's available, since the only +anything items have been martial gear thus far). Keep in mind, unless I'm missing something, that you're attacking him with disadvantage. You get 13 attacks for 19.5 damage at +8 to hit and disadvantage, which is extremely unlikely to deal 203 damage to him.



Side note about magical items: I know it seems annoying, since any martial would have a +3 weapon at that point. But we haven't gotten any weapons or armour a druid can use while shapeshifted yet since we know about very few magical items thus far, but it does seem likely they're coming since it would ruin game balance if they didn't (if druids can't use magic items then they're too weak without them or they're too strong when no-one has any, there's no middle ground), in addition to the last two editions having items that were usable while transformed.

[MaxWilson]

Actually technically, the RAW is that you need to be in human form to be able to use the Wild Shape ability.
I don't know about RAI (None of us do unless we have contacted the writers and asked them their intentions but the bolded part of the following clause within the Wild Shape description doesn't enable double-wildshaping as claimed: "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."
If you want to shift from animal to animal, first you have to demonstrate that that animal is physically capable of Wild Shaping into another form. I don't have a huge amount of knowledge regarding the animal kingdom but I am unaware of any that are physically capable of metamorphosis.

(I changed the bolding to emphasize the whole phrase.)

You always retain your abilities, but you can only use them if the new form has the physical prerequisites for it. Wild shaping has no material or somatic components--you don't need speech or opposable thumbs to use it--ergo it is retained in wildshaped form.

[silveralen]

Try harder. Contagion (Flesh Rot) + Hex + Bestow Curse + Quickened Eldritch Blast + Quickened Scorching Ray (9th level) can do over 600 HP of damage per round, vaporizing the druid. Disabling spells like Confusion are another route, although one which is harder to analyze in closed form. Moonbeam is awesome for killing druids.

Well, elementals are immune to disease, so contagion is right out. Bestow curse is facing wisdom on a Druid so it might take a couple turns for it to stick. I'm also curious about your damage numbers, since quickened scorching blast average damage is 120ish, even with the extra curse and hex damage, you are looking in the 300 range, which is the "might kill them, might not" area.

Confusion is a wisdom save right? I forgot if you can save to end during as well.


That means the animal needs to be physically capable of performing the actions required, not that they have to be physically capable of magical abilities. After all, one of the features of wild shape is allowing you to revert to your original form, and there are no animals capable of transforming into a human. By your reading of the spell, characters in wild shape are incapable of turning back.

Except that is explicitly allowed as part if wildshape.

[Sartharina]

Damn... wildshape is even more broken than I thought it was since it retains class features. How'd that one get through?

You keep stat increases and proficiencies.

[Jamesps]

Try #2:

20th level thief, again with alertness and lucky and maybe grappler. In this scenario the Druid can have whatever magic items he wants. The Thief gets two:

Scroll of dimension door and scroll of antimagic aura.

Combat goes as follows: Thief goes first (30 on initiative) and uses his action to ready an action to use the antimagic aura scroll as soon as the druid is in range. Then he uses cunning action to use the dimension door scroll to close range.

All magic turns off, everyone falls to the ground and takes some damage. Both prone. Thief goes again on initiative pass 20, gets up and grapples the druid (athletics check somewhere between 24 and 34).

Druids turn finally. Druid can't break out of the thief's lowest grapple check and gets to flail feebly for d6-1 damage.

Thief kills Druid on subsequent rounds. Then uses the remaining 9.5 minutes on his antimagic aura to go kick down some wizard's sand castle.

[Eslin]

Well, elementals are immune to disease, so contagion is right out. Bestow curse is facing wisdom on a Druid so it might take a couple turns for it to stick. I'm also curious about your damage numbers, since quickened scorching blast average damage is 120ish, even with the extra curse and hex damage, you are looking in the 300 range, which is the "might kill them, might not" area.

Confusion is a wisdom save right? I forgot if you can save to end during as well.
Wisdom throw at the end of each of its turns. And if we're looking for ways to kill druids, it's not that hard - maze the druid who will likely have 10 int because it's useless to anyone who isn't a wizard, they need a 20 to get out. Kill their party in the meantime, then once you've won surround space where the druid's going to be, hold it down, cast flesh to stone and then teleport the resulting object into the sun or hack it to pieces.



Except that is explicitly allowed as part if wildshape.
As is turning into an animal (hint it's kind of an important part of wildshape)


Damn... wildshape is even more broken than I thought it was since it retains class features. How'd that one get through?

You keep stat increases and proficiencies.
It got through because unlike shapechange etc you don't get any type of creature and you're limited to CR6 at level 20 as opposed to CR20. A CR6 beast isn't as good as a level 20 character so you need to keep your class features to stay relevant, while obviously a CR20 anything you feel like will be as good as a level 20 character so keeping your class features would be too strong.


Try #2:

20th level thief, again with alertness and lucky and maybe grappler. In this scenario the Druid can have whatever magic items he wants. The Thief gets two:

Scroll of dimension door and scroll of antimagic aura.

Combat goes as follows: Thief goes first (30 on initiative) and uses his action to ready an action to use the antimagic aura scroll as soon as the druid is in range. Then he uses cunning action to use the dimension door scroll to close range.

All magic turns off, everyone falls to the ground and takes some damage. Both prone. Thief goes again on initiative pass 20, gets up and grapples the druid (athletics check somewhere between 24 and 34).

Druids turn finally. Druid can't break out of the thief's lowest grapple check and gets to flail feebly for d6-1 damage.

Thief kills Druid on subsequent rounds. Then uses the remaining 9.5 minutes on his antimagic aura to go kick down some wizard's sand castle.

Not bad, though the problem with that scenario is what if the druid has a scroll of contingency and a scroll of dimension door, and combines them with the contingency 'I am in some way about to lose the ability to change shape (works on death, antimagic, incapacitation)' and the instruction to teleport 500ft north? It's why I'm not allowing magic items until we know what's actually available.

[Perseus]

Damn... wildshape is even more broken than I thought it was since it retains class features. How'd that one get through?

You keep stat increases and proficiencies.

Yup, wildshape is totally borked right now.

[Jamesps]

Not bad, though the problem with that scenario is what if the druid has a scroll of contingency and a scroll of dimension door, and combines them with the contingency 'I am in some way about to lose the ability to change shape (works on death, antimagic, incapacitation)' and the instruction to teleport 500ft north? It's why I'm not allowing magic items until we know what's actually available.

The druid's magic items are irrelevant. Unless he has wish, his spells are irrelevant (I think wish is the only spell that goes through antimagic aura). Contingency doesn't work in an antimagic field. Neither does teleport.

Also druids can't cast scrolls of contingency or teleport anyways I'm pretty sure. Unless you're a thief, spells have to be on your spell list to cast from scrolls.

[MaxWilson]

Well, elementals are immune to disease, so contagion is right out. Bestow curse is facing wisdom on a Druid so it might take a couple turns for it to stick. I'm also curious about your damage numbers, since quickened scorching blast average damage is 120ish, even with the extra curse and hex damage, you are looking in the 300 range, which is the "might kill them, might not" area.

Confusion is a wisdom save right? I forgot if you can save to end during as well.

Yes, you get a wisdom save at the end of every turn to end Confusion, so it's unlikely to last more than one round on the druid.

What makes you say elementals are immune to disease? I don't see it in the elemental stat block or in the generic notes on "elementals" at the beginning of the MM.

Bestow Curse will take multiple attempts to stick on the druid, yes (42% chance per turn from a sorcerer). That's fine.

Numbers (reconstructed from Giant2005's post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?381569-Classes-(require-assistance)&p=18357062#post18357062)): For a wizard/red dragon sorc/warlock, each ray from Scorching Ray does 12 (maximized 2d6) + 5 (CHA bonus) + 3.5 (Hex) + 4.5 (Bestow Curse) = 25, doubled for Flesh Rot, so 500, plus 10 points of damage from Empowered Evocation (doubled for Flesh Rot). Add Eldritch Blast for 5.5 (1d10) + 5 (Agonizing Blast) + 3.5 (Hex) + 4.5 (Bestow Curse) = 18.5 doubled for Flesh Rot, so 148 points of damage. Total: 658 points of damage this round, times hit percentage. Having reconstructed that damage, I see a mistake: you can't have maximized evoker spells as a 12th level wizard, so subtract 100 points of damage from that total: 558 points of damage.

As a straight-up Sorcerer/Warlock, you can't cast Bestow Curse/Contagion anyway, so you're better off just disabling via Heightened Confusion and then Quickened EB'ing him to death.

[Eslin]

Yes, you get a wisdom save at the end of every turn to end Confusion, so it's unlikely to last more than one round on the druid.

What makes you say elementals are immune to disease? I don't see it in the elemental stat block or in the generic notes on "elementals" at the beginning of the MM.

Bestow Curse will take multiple attempts to stick on the druid, yes (42% chance per turn from a sorcerer). That's fine.

Numbers (reconstructed from Giant2005's post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?381569-Classes-(require-assistance)&p=18357062#post18357062)--I forgot about the Invoker mixin): For a wizard/red dragon sorc/warlock, each ray from Scorching Ray does 12 (maximized 2d6) + 5 (CHA bonus) + 3.5 (Hex) + 4.5 (Bestow Curse) = 25, doubled for Flesh Rot, so 500, plus 10 points of damage from Empowered Evocation (doubled for Flesh Rot). Add Eldritch Blast for 5.5 (1d10) + 5 (Agonizing Blast) + 3.5 (Hex) + 4.5 (Bestow Curse) = 18.5 doubled for Flesh Rot, so 148 points of damage. Total: 658 points of damage per round, times hit percentage. Having reconstructed that damage, I see a mistake: you can't have maximized evoker spells as a 12th level wizard, so subtract 100 points of damage from that total: 558 points of damage.

As a straight-up Sorcerer/Warlock, you can't cast Bestow Curse/Contagion anyway, so you're better off just disabling via Heightened Confusion and then Quickened EB'ing him to death.
The major problem with that is you're doing a whole lot of stuff over several turns from melee range that a druid has no reason to let you do. He can easily get out of melee range and can also easily just remove most of those effects from himself, you're relying on stacking a lot of modifiers that you're not going to get the chance to stack.


The druid's magic items are irrelevant. Unless he has wish, his spells are irrelevant (I think wish is the only spell that goes through antimagic aura). Contingency doesn't work in an antimagic field. Neither does teleport.

Also druids can't cast scrolls of contingency or teleport anyways I'm pretty sure. Unless you're a thief, spells have to be on your spell list to cast from scrolls.
You don't need to have contingency work in an antimagic field, you just have the contingency set to go off right before you get antimagic fielded, 'x is about to happen' is valid phrasing. And this is the reason I'm banning magic items until they come out, we have no way of knowing what will be possible.

Though it is returning to the original point, that the only efficient way to beat a caster is with magic. I imagine a similar feat could be accomplished with a valor bard who knew antimagic field and used something like shapechange to get in range, that one wouldn't require items at all.

[Easy_Lee]

Keep in mind the druid's passive perception is 31 (10+wis mod+proficiency+advantage+observant) - will the character be able to consistently roll above that? What's their stealth modifier?

Meaning that the monk will have to stay very far away while hiding, DM dependent. It could take several days to wind up the shot, and possibly a disguise. It's hardly a for-sure thing, but reasonably in the monk-assassin's favor I think.

[MaxWilson]

The major problem with that is you're doing a whole lot of stuff over several turns from melee range that a druid has no reason to let you do. He can easily get out of melee range and can also easily just remove most of those effects from himself, you're relying on stacking a lot of modifiers that you're not going to get the chance to stack.

Argh. The other problem is that Contagion isn't even on the wizard spell list.

Responding to your point though: there's no assumption here that the druid is just passively sitting there and letting you cast spells on him. (Not necessarily from melee range: you could be using your Owl familiar to deliver touch attacks.) He's probably hitting you for damage every turn, or casting spells on you. However, there's no reason to attack his HP (a near-infinite resource) until you have some assurance that he won't just recover them the next turn, so setting up for a nova next round is better than a half-nova right now.

Personally I think it is better to go for disabling spells like Polymorph/Confusion/Flesh To Stone/etc., but some people like to talk about DPR instead, and it was an easy example. Turns out to have been flawed though so I should have stuck to non-DPR strategies.

[Eslin]

Argh. The other problem is that Contagion isn't even on the wizard spell list.

Nope. Want to stack all of that, become a bard.


Meaning that the monk will have to stay very far away while hiding, DM dependent. It could take several days to wind up the shot, and possibly a disguise. It's hardly a for-sure thing, but reasonably in the monk-assassin's favor I think.

The thing is with 31 passive perception and proficiency in stealth (plus the ability to travel underground, in water and over air) the druid would very likely find the monk first. Especially considering they are, you know, a druid, so they can track them down with spells like locate creature.

[Daishain]

Since half casters are apparently allowed...

L20 Oath of Ancients paladin. High saves, takes only half damage on all spells, and can hound the druid with moonbeam to force them out of wild shape (constitution save, can be repeated every round, and the druid is rolling at disadvantage) I'd set him up with a glaive, great weapon fighting, polearm master and mage killer feats (also sentinel or mounted combatant if room can be spared)

Follow up moonbeam with ensaring strike, just throw a javelin at him if you need range. That druid is almost guaranteed to fail the strength save. With a little luck, (partly depending on what the druid has prepared), at the end of round two the paladin has a partly helpless very squishy spellcaster that can't run away in front of him, and still has plenty of juice left for a high damage nova.

Unless I'm missing something, said druid is in trouble.

[Jamesps]

You don't need to have contingency work in an antimagic field, you just have the contingency set to go off right before you get antimagic fielded, 'x is about to happen' is valid phrasing. And this is the reason I'm banning magic items until they come out, we have no way of knowing what will be possible.


From contigency: "The contingent spell happens immediately after the circumstance is met"

So the antimagic aura would be up by the time the contigent spell occurred. As for trying to work it so your spell went off "just before you're hit by the antimagic aura" you'd have to argue with your dm that the contingent spell is omniscient in its understanding of event occurring. After all, you have no idea what spell that rogue is reading off the scroll.

I chose thief over bard because a) thieve's aren't spellcasters (at all), and b) thieves can use scrolls as a bonus action.

Finally, the reason I ignored the prohibition on magic items is because it really doesn't matter what you give the Druid. It won't help, because none of his items will function in the field. Also it's a major class feature of the thief to use magic items, so it wouldn't really be fair without them.

[Easy_Lee]

The thing is with 31 passive perception and proficiency in stealth (plus the ability to travel underground, in water and over air) the druid would very likely find the monk first. Especially considering they are, you know, a druid, so they can track them down with spells like locate creature.

That's the only reason I took monk over pure assassin: the pass without trace feature. Between that and bonus action teleportation between shadows...yeah. If the druid is trying to hide too, ain't nobody finding anybody.

Incidentally, with expertise from rogue (double prof) and I believe reliable talent (unsure of exact level, may need to take more rogue levels), plus pass without trace (+10) and 20 Dex, the monk assassin's minimum stealth roll is (6*2+5+10+10)=37.

[Eslin]

That's the only reason I took monk over pure assassin: the pass without trace feature. Between that and bonus action teleportation between shadows...yeah. If the druid is trying to hide too, ain't nobody finding anybody.

Wouldn't locate creature still beat that? Pass without trace doesn't foil magical detection.


From contigency: "The contingent spell happens immediately after the circumstance is met"

So the antimagic aura would be up by the time the contigent spell occurred. As for trying to work it so your spell went off "just before you're hit by the antimagic aura" you'd have to argue with your dm that the contingent spell is omniscient in its understanding of event occurring. After all, you have no idea what spell that rogue is reading off the scroll.

I chose thief over bard because a) thieve's aren't spellcasters (at all), and b) thieves can use scrolls as a bonus action.

Finally, the reason I ignored the prohibition on magic items is because it really doesn't matter what you give the Druid. It won't help, because none of his items will function in the field. Also it's a major class feature of the thief to use magic items, so it wouldn't really be fair without them.

I'm willing to credit that (somewhat, considering that no magic items was one of the first rules), except that antimagic field has a 10 foot radius and you can't get your grapple checks high enough to avoid losing to the druid's +5 sometimes, it's likely that he'll leave the circle and fly away before you can take 203 hit points off him and past that point you have no way of winning.

[Easy_Lee]

Wouldn't locate creature still beat that? Pass without trace doesn't foil magical detection.

Locate creature only works on either someone you've met before or creatures of a specific type. If your druid knows a very particular person is after him, he might hope to spot that person first. Catching the bonus-action dashing / teleporting shadow monk is another story.

But really, how many advantages and meta strategies do you plan to give your druid? What is the point of this thread if the druid is always assumed to know exactly who's coming and have exactly the right spells prepared?

[Eslin]

Locate creature only works on either someone you've met before or creatures of a specific type. If your druid knows a very particular person is after him, he might hope to spot that person first. Catching the bonus-action dashing / teleporting shadow monk is another story.

But really, how many advantages and meta strategies do you plan to give your druid? What is the point of this thread if the druid is always assumed to know exactly who's coming and have exactly the right spells prepared?

He doesn't, he has 25 which I've written down. You forgot to add that the druid needs to be within 1000 feet or the spell is wasted, which the monk may not be. However regarding knowing about creatures, presumably the druid and martial know who the other is otherwise how do they know who to kill?

[Jamesps]

Wouldn't locate creature still beat that? Pass without trace doesn't foil magical detection.



I'm willing to credit that (somewhat, considering that no magic items was one of the first rules), except that antimagic field has a 10 foot radius and you can't get your grapple checks high enough to avoid losing to the druid's +5 sometimes, it's likely that he'll leave the circle and fly away before you can take 203 hit points off him and past that point you have no way of winning.

I think you misunderstand what's occurring.

*Thief goes (at initiative 30, beyond the Druid's ability to beat), and uses his action to set up a ready action to use the antimagic aura when he's next to the Druid.

*Thief uses cunning action to read a dimension door scroll. Then "reacts" to arriving next to druid (within 10 feet) by reading the antimagic aura scroll.

*Both will fall prone after the thief's reaction.

*Thief gets a second turn at initiative pass 20 (also beyond the 8 dex druid's ability to beat). Thief grapples the druid with a minimum athletics check of 26 (thief can't roll below a 10 on skilled checks, and has expertise and a small strength bonus for athletics). The Druid can't beat this with his 8 strength. Even if he was skilled in athletics he'd roll a 26 and remain grappled (20 isn't an auto sucess for skills or saves in 5th ed, and an even roll means no change)

The Druid is now prone and grapple with no spells or magical abilities and all of his magical items are useless. He cannot break the grapple, not ever no matter how many times he tries. The thief has advantage because of his prone condition and gets sneak attack every round. The druid's only recourse is to hit the thief with his stick for 1d6-1 damage. He has no other actions available to him.

[Morukai]

Wild Shape consistently mentions transforming into a beast (or elemental, as the case might be for our example druid).

Based on that, it seems clear to me- even though it is not spelled out- that when using Wild Shape, a druid must change forms.

That doesn't necessarily mean they have to revert to their natural humanoid form, but it does mean that they can't expend a Wild Shape use as a bonus action to "refresh" their form and just regain the HP of the same form.

What say you?

[Ralanr]

I'm bad at hypothetical, so I'll just set up a character to the best of my knowledge, AFB.

level 20 variant human champion fighter, great weapon fighting style, defense style (Or archery)
Feats: Great weapon, Lucky, Mage Slayer, Sentinel, Polearm master (Can't remember how many feats he'd had by level 20)

Weapon: Glaive.

[MaxWilson]

Wild Shape consistently mentions transforming into a beast (or elemental, as the case might be for our example druid).

Based on that, it seems clear to me- even though it is not spelled out- that when using Wild Shape, a druid must change forms.

That doesn't necessarily mean they have to revert to their natural humanoid form, but it does mean that they can't expend a Wild Shape use as a bonus action to "refresh" their form and just regain the HP of the same form.

What say you?

Sounds fine, probably RAI. From a fluff perspective it bothers me a bit, since an unwounded black bear and a bear with its guts ripped out are different (should count as a change). But I expect the designers would probably agree with your statement.

[Sartharina]

So you turn from one Zodar Brown Bear into another Zodar Brown bear!

[MaxWilson]

So you turn from one Zodar Brown Bear into another Zodar Brown bear!

It would be awesome if Zodars were in 5E.

[Regulas]

Why are there two threads on this anyway?

And as with the other one, Martial wins if he is at any point capable of attacking the druid, otherwise druid wins.

This largely comes down to the level of knowledge and prep that each of them have ahead of time.

[MadBear]

From reading the opening post on both threads, the answer to this is obviously no.

It's simply due to the fact that a full 9th level caster with prep time can beat non-full 9th level spell casters. It's a non-comparison though.

Martials are always good at what they do, with fringe case exceptions. Spell casters though are expected to diversify their spell lists to combat the many challenges they expect to see.

Letting a full caster know the exact threat ahead of time, and being surprised at the outcome is a little baffling.

By the way, this comparison's flaws become apparent when looked at from the other side.

A lvl 20 druid vs a lvl 20 champion fighter who wins when:

- Both start in a 1,000 ft anti-magic field
- Both can see each other
- Both have mundane armor

..... what the fighter won! I'm shocked!

When you stack the deck in favor of a character you already want to win, you're engaging in confirmation bias.

Why does this druid get to start wildshaped and in the air?
Because, you want to stack the deck in their favor

Why is it set in a natural setting and not in a fortified castle?
Because, you want to stack the deck in their favor

Why does he have the warcaster and observant feats?
Because, you want to stack the deck in their favor

And as already mentioned, it's a full 9 levels of spell casting class. The comparison is absurd (in the same way the fighter comparison is absurd).

[Ghost Nappa]

Why are there two threads on this anyway?

And as with the other one, Martial wins if he is at any point capable of attacking the druid, otherwise druid wins.

This largely comes down to the level of knowledge and prep that each of them have ahead of time.

Not exactly. The Druid has 8 hours of win button from Foresight. Attacker is at disadvantage, and the druid is making attack rolls, ability checks and saving throws with advantage and can't be surprised.

The window of oppurutunity for the Martial is 1 minute. If the character is capable of finding the Druid BEFORE Foresight is active, the Martial wins*. If the Martial tries openly attacking the Druid while Foresight is up, the Druid will win.

Once Foresight goes down, the Druid will need 8 hours of rest to regain the ninth level spell slot. Then another minute to cast it.

Basically, this is a game of cat-and-mouse where the roles switch roughly every eight hours. The cat always wins during their shift.

The martial needs to either be able to:

find the druid within the first minute before Foresight goes up (and deal with the druid's remaining strategies)
or be able to deal 203+ damage with surprise and have a minimum stealth modifier of 31 to beat the Druid's passive Perception.



Edit: * - assuming the Martial can deal with the remaining strategies

Edit 2: Stealth is probably the Martial's best chance of winning here. Assassin and Shadow Monk are going to be flourish simply because of the number of ways they can and will hide. The Druid is going to need active perception checks from animals and other creatures to find the Martial within his Foresight time frame. The highest roll is going to come from the Druid, at a 51. Now, I'm not sure a Stealth character can beat that 100% of the time, but certainly will out-roll the Druid more often than not. Once the druid loses Foresight, surprise round attacks, followed by winning initiative, going again, and then kiting out are the best chance of victory. Wood Elves and Shadow Monks have the advantage by being to blend into the darkness and natural foliage.

[Regulas]

Not exactly. The Druid has 8 hours of win button from Foresight. Attacker is at disadvantage, and the druid is making attack rolls, ability checks and saving throws with advantage and can't be surprised.

You really should have read the post just above your first.

You are basically granting your druid every advantage possible ahead of time and then saying that he will win.

So if your druid is a paranoid scitso that is constantly doing everything he can to prevent assassins at all times every day every year for the rest of his life, then he might be really hard to kill.

If he's not mentally insane then theres a good chance he coud get pelted with arrows before he even knows anything is wrong.

[silveralen]

What makes you say elementals are immune to disease? I don't see it in the elemental stat block or in the generic notes on "elementals" at the beginning of the MM

Disease isn't a condition so it isn't surprising it isn't listed in the stats block. Common sense though, you wanna give a thing made of pure fire with no flesh, blood, circulatory system, etc a cold?

[Perseus]

You really should have read the post just above your first.

You are basically granting your druid every advantage possible ahead of time and then saying that he will win.

So if your druid is a paranoid scitso that is constantly doing everything he can to prevent assassins at all times every day every year for the rest of his life, then he might be really hard to kill.

If he's not mentally insane then theres a good chance he coud get pelted with arrows before he even knows anything is wrong.

There is a good Tippy quote floating around somewhere about why high level wizards (but can apply to any caster) about the only way you get to high level is by being the most paranoid mofo around (paraphrasing of course).

But yeah if I was a high level druid with access to Foresight you better bet I will have it up every day... You never know what might show up on your doorstep...

[AgentPaper]

Working on a build for this, would it be fair to assume that the Fighter has access to flying mounts? Specifically a Pegasus, most likely.

[silveralen]

There is a good Tippy quote floating around somewhere about why high level wizards (but can apply to any caster) about the only way you get to high level is by being the most paranoid mofo around (paraphrasing of course).

But yeah if I was a high level druid with access to Foresight you better bet I will have it up every day... You never know what might show up on your doorstep...

Awesome. So you are never active for more than 8 hours at a time, after which you prepare spells sans foresight for 8 hours? Which you do as a perfect routine?

Oh yeah, that's both believable and totally not exploitable.

[JoeJ]

Once Foresight goes down, the Druid will need 8 hours of rest to regain the ninth level spell slot. Then another minute to cast it.

Sixteen hours actually, although only eight of them have to be spent resting.

[Perseus]

Working on a build for this, would it be fair to assume that the Fighter has access to flying mounts? Specifically a Pegasus, most likely.

I wouldn't rely on flying mounts all that much, they tend to die easily or be controlled...

Plus a flying druid is the easy fight ;)

[MaxWilson]

Disease isn't a condition so it isn't surprising it isn't listed in the stats block. Common sense though, you wanna give a thing made of pure fire with no flesh, blood, circulatory system, etc a cold?

Okay, that's what I thought: it isn't a rule, you just made it up on the spot.

Who says it's a cold? We don't even have rules for humanoid diseases (aside from the text of Contagion), until the DMG comes out. Who knows whether beasts/aberrations/elementals have their own kinds of diseases? We can be reasonably confident that constructs and undead do not, but even that is a judgment call.

Currently there's no way to say with surety how Contagion works on anything.

[Ghost Nappa]

Sixteen hours actually, although only eight of them have to be spent resting.

Wait, why 16? Isn't it just the length of a long rest?


You really should have read the post just above your first.

You are basically granting your druid every advantage possible ahead of time and then saying that he will win.

So if your druid is a paranoid scitso that is constantly doing everything he can to prevent assassins at all times every day every year for the rest of his life, then he might be really hard to kill.

If he's not mentally insane then theres a good chance he coud get pelted with arrows before he even knows anything is wrong.

I did read his post. I ignored it. I like the challenge given by the OP.

You should reread some of the earlier posts, like Easy_Lee's. It's entirely possible to beat the Druid, but not if you fight this scenario on the OP's terms.

The Druid's biggest advantage is coming from a Single spell that will only last 8 hours. Fighting him in that time is designed to appear as suicide (nobody has really tried to see if it IS).

After it's expiration, the Druid must take a long rest - 8 hours (or possibly more for some reason) - in order to regain any spent spell slots (specifically the ninth level slot). You must be able to find the Druid during that time. In fact, any interference with the druid's rest will force the druid to start over. By repeatedly taking Second Winds and short rests, a Fighter could use Second Winds to recover HP and kite the Druid while he rests, eventually burning out his spell slots.

A Rogue could chain sneak attacks until massive damage occurs or failed death saves.

A Monk could lock him down.

The only known pre-requisites for victory are find in 60 seconds and nova, or hide for 8 hours 1 minute and find.

It's possible there exists a way to attack the Druid straight on with Foresight up, but it's terrible odds: you have to somehow find a way to get into melee and stay there. Mage Slayer and Sentinel can cover most of the work from there on, but you're going to need to be able to get there first and that requires some work and likely some multi-classing.

Edit: The easiest way to do it is to wait until he HAS to drop his guard.

Also, I get what Joe means. You can only benefit from 1 long rest in an eight hour period. Gotta wait 16 hours before you can do it again.

[Daishain]

Wait, why 16? Isn't it just the length of a long rest?

Can only gain the benefits of a long rest once per 24 hours.

The rule's mainly there to discourage 20 minute days.

[JoeJ]

Wait, why 16? Isn't it just the length of a long rest?

A character can only benefit from 1 long rest in any 24-hour period. (PHB p. 186)

edit: Ninja'd

[Sartharina]

There is a good Tippy quote floating around somewhere about why high level wizards (but can apply to any caster) about the only way you get to high level is by being the most paranoid mofo around (paraphrasing of course).

But yeah if I was a high level druid with access to Foresight you better bet I will have it up every day... You never know what might show up on your doorstep...Well, Tippy's the same order of magnitude above Pre-Tippy Theoretical Optimization as Pre-Tippy theoretical optimization is above a Fighter that uses Weapon Focus+Specialization on a Longsword while fighting with Longsword+Shortsword.

[Ghost Nappa]

There is a good Tippy quote floating around somewhere about why high level wizards (but can apply to any caster) about the only way you get to high level is by being the most paranoid mofo around (paraphrasing of course).

But yeah if I was a high level druid with access to Foresight you better bet I will have it up every day... You never know what might show up on your doorstep...


Well, Tippy's the same order of magnitude above Pre-Tippy Theoretical Optimization as Pre-Tippy theoretical optimization is above a Fighter that uses Weapon Focus+Specialization on a Longsword while fighting with Longsword+Shortsword.

That conversation is from a different edition of the game (3.5) and is not necessarily as accurate of the Wizard class or any other class for that matter as it once was.

The quote itself can be found by following the source into its original thread:
*snip*

Note that given many of the rules changes and the spell nerfs, the necessarily paranoid PC does not have to be a full-caster. Or to perhaps better re-phrase it, it's entirely possible for highly optimized paranoid characters to exist and not be wizards or for high level wizards to not be paranoid. I don't think enough actual gameplay has occurred to be sure, but that doesn't mean we don't discuss it regardless.

[Giant2005]

Wild Shaped Druids are very susceptible to save or die/suck abilities that function based on the enemy's HP rather than saves.
Martials only have one such ability available (two if you consider a Cleric to be a martial) and that is Banishing Smite. Banishing Smite doesn't actually kill a target but makes it disappear for a while which would be time enough to set up enough traps to kill the Druid upon its return.
If Clerics count, they have it even easier by using Divine Word which would just kill the Druid outright.

[Perseus]

That conversation is from a different edition of the game (3.5) and is not necessarily as accurate of the Wizard class or any other class for that matter as it once was.

The quote itself can be found by following the source into its original thread:

Note that given many of the rules changes and the spell nerfs, the necessarily paranoid PC does not have to be a full-caster. Or to perhaps better re-phrase it, it's entirely possible for highly optimized paranoid characters to exist and not be wizards or for high level wizards to not be paranoid. I don't think enough actual gameplay has occurred to be sure, but that doesn't mean we don't discuss it regardless.

Different edition and yet the same in game world rules apply... The reason why i said full caster is because they are the only ones that have the resources to support being super paranoid, all others are pretty much screwed and might as well go through high levels knowing that if someone powerful wants them dead it WILL happen and there isn't much they can really do about it besides asking their friends the Full Casters for help.

Next poster...
edit: I can see a slimmer of an argument against my claim that Monks are casters... But how on earth could a cleric be considered anything other than a full caster? Even if they want to play melee with the fighters they can always change up their spells on a daily basis and at level 20 (the level the action on this thread should be taking place) the cleric gets to call upon a deity to do something...

I'm pretty sure the only capstone stronger than the Moon Druid's would have to be *Summon God*.

so no man, clerics do not count as martials.

[Sartharina]

Super paranoia is NOT required to reach high levels in most settings. Tippy's quote only applies to his own setting, and his assumptions on how leveling works.

[BranMan]

Just a thought:

Modify the Druid's memory to remove all memory of animals; druid can no longer wildshape!

[DragonSinged]

Half-orc rogue assassin 12 / shadow monk 6 / fighter 2, feats include alert, mage slayer, and war caster, and sentinel. Dex is 20, and he has dueling which works with unaramed strikes. He stays hidden using pass without trace, great stealth, and high move speed. He locates the druid by looking up at the flier and staying close enough not to lose him. He waits until the druid begins a rest, or at least until foresight wears off.

At this point, we have reasonably guaranteed a full surprise round followed by likely winning initiative. The monk can cast darkness on himself to further guarantee advantage on attacks. Two rounds of sneak attack, 12 total attacks with one round of 8 guaranteed-crits, will kill the druid. If the druid tries to cast a spell as a reaction or run, the monk assassin reacts via mage slayer or sentinel to cast silence via shadow monk and war caster.

A rogue assassin 3 / barbarian 17 can do the same thing, but is less likely to get the opportunity.

That rogue character actually sounds like a lot of fun to play. How would you build by level if you were going to play from level 1? Would you change much to be more general in use, rather than being specifically for hunting down crazed level 20 moon druids? (Strange lifestyle btw. Would like to hear the story of the assassin cult that trained that one.)

[Eslin]

It should be noted that the dimension door/antimagic field build sort of wins - magic items were banned from the test, so if anyone can beat the druid using the original build then we have a true druid killer, but until that happens we have a best build.


Super paranoia is NOT required to reach high levels in most settings. Tippy's quote only applies to his own setting, and his assumptions on how leveling works.

Paranoia is required to reach high levels in almost any setting. Adventuring's a game of judging risk, and if the setting doesn't have that many high level ones that means they weren't paranoid enough and died. The only settings in which high levels don't require ridiculous paranoia are by definition the ones in which high level characters are common.


Disease isn't a condition so it isn't surprising it isn't listed in the stats block. Common sense though, you wanna give a thing made of pure fire with no flesh, blood, circulatory system, etc a cold?
Emphasis mine, seems like a pretty good solution actually =P


From reading the opening post on both threads, the answer to this is obviously no.

It's simply due to the fact that a full 9th level caster with prep time can beat non-full 9th level spell casters. It's a non-comparison though.

Martials are always good at what they do, with fringe case exceptions. Spell casters though are expected to diversify their spell lists to combat the many challenges they expect to see.

Letting a full caster know the exact threat ahead of time, and being surprised at the outcome is a little baffling.

By the way, this comparison's flaws become apparent when looked at from the other side.

A lvl 20 druid vs a lvl 20 champion fighter who wins when:

- Both start in a 1,000 ft anti-magic field
- Both can see each other
- Both have mundane armor

..... what the fighter won! I'm shocked!

When you stack the deck in favor of a character you already want to win, you're engaging in confirmation bias.

Why does this druid get to start wildshaped and in the air?
Because, you want to stack the deck in their favor

Why is it set in a natural setting and not in a fortified castle?
Because, you want to stack the deck in their favor

Why does he have the warcaster and observant feats?
Because, you want to stack the deck in their favor

And as already mentioned, it's a full 9 levels of spell casting class. The comparison is absurd (in the same way the fighter comparison is absurd).

Why does the druid start wildshaped and in the air? Because it's a druid. Once you can permanently wild shape, there's absolutely no reason to sit around on the ground in human form.

Why is it set in a natural setting and not a fortified castle? Because it's the druid who is being attacked. The druid has fixed stats, and each challenger gets to create their own specific build in order to beat the druid. If it were the reverse I'd have a fixed stat fighter in a castle with everyone allowed to tailor a caster.

Why does he have the warcaster and observant feats? Because it's a really good caster feat and because he had 19 wisdom so I took a feat that boosted wisdom to bring it to 20 respectively.
The druid doesn't have prep time - there's a vague awareness there'll be a fight, so he casts foresight like everyone else would (while a few kilometres in the air) and goes searching.

And in your scenario, the fighter will still lose. The druid and fighter have the same run speed, so the druid just runs to the edge. And starting somewhere in a reasonably large open natural area (ie what most of the world is covered in) is a far more logical start than starting it in a 1000ft antimagic field, something that doesn't exist.

This isn't 'looking at it from the other side', this is you telling me I'm stacking the deck when I had a perfectly fair reason for every condition the fight had.

[MaxWilson]

Why does the druid start wildshaped and in the air? Because it's a druid. Once you can permanently wild shape, there's absolutely no reason to sit around on the ground in human form.

You know, on Athas this is basically every druid's life goal. Permanent elemental status.

[silveralen]

You know, on Athas this is basically every druid's life goal. Permanent elemental status.

I thought that was the cleric? Technically only cleric/psion dual classes (at least in 2nd, 4e kinda changed a lot of that around in how elemental clerics were handled). Druids want to merge with the land or something I recall.

[MaxWilson]

I thought that was the cleric? Technically only cleric/psion dual classes (at least in 2nd, 4e kinda changed a lot of that around in how elemental clerics were handled). Druids want to merge with the land or something I recall.

(Thinks briefly.) You're right, it is clerics. It's been too long since I read Dragon Kings.

[silveralen]

(Thinks briefly.) You're right, it is clerics. It's been too long since I read Dragon Kings.

It is up there for my favorite splat book of all time. The first (at least first I ever saw) true epic level characters in DnD!

[archaeo]

How about this solution:

1. Be any martial character of whatever level with a high Cha score.
2. Leave the area and go to the nearest kingdom.
3. Persuade the king to lend you his army in order to take down the Druid menace.
4. Bring several hundred archers back to the battlefield.
5. Tell the archers to shoot at the Druid.

You don't even need step 1 if you've been playing long enough, since you're in a campaign setting with no magic items and you probably have piles and piles of gold sitting there, useless, with which you can buy followers at 2 gold a piece for the day. For 400 gold, you can hire 200 archers, who will either kill the Druid or send them running off.

[Eslin]

How about this solution:

1. Be any martial character of whatever level with a high Cha score.
2. Leave the area and go to the nearest kingdom.
3. Persuade the king to lend you his army in order to take down the Druid menace.
4. Bring several hundred archers back to the battlefield.
5. Tell the archers to shoot at the Druid.

You don't even need step 1 if you've been playing long enough, since you're in a campaign setting with no magic items and you probably have piles and piles of gold sitting there, useless, with which you can buy followers at 2 gold a piece for the day. For 400 gold, you can hire 200 archers, who will either kill the Druid or send them running off.

That's like sending an army of archers to kill a wizard, they're never gonna hit in the first place. Why wouldn't the druid hide out of sight and cause a blizzard?

[Longcat]

Why do we judge the merit of characters via PvP in a cooperative PvE game again?

[Eslin]

Why do we judge the merit of characters via PvP in a cooperative PvE game again?

We don't, I mostly created it so people would come up with neat tricks. The thief dimension door+AMF scrolls idea was cool.

The comparative merit of the classes is easily decidable in a non 1v1 PvP context, druid equals a fighter in combat and has massive out of combat versatility (and a bunch of in combat versatility) that a fighter can't match.

[archaeo]

That's like sending an army of archers to kill a wizard, they're never gonna hit in the first place. Why wouldn't the druid hide out of sight and cause a blizzard?

They're not gonna hit? 1 out of 20 strikes are critical hits. I suppose if the Druid's got foresight up, that number goes down somewhere that doesn't really matter, since you can always just hire more archers. Plus, they don't have to crit, since the elemental forms you'll want to use to avoid too much archery damage have 15 and 17 AC. Since you can't really fly away from archery, having a burrow speed seems like a better option, but hopefully you avoid popping up next to the PC, who you probably can't tell apart from all the archers running around and who can use a Sentinel-and-Mage-Slayer-powered OA to just keep you above ground long enough to get a Druid pincushion set up.

Also, hide? Be a Ranger, take elementals and beasts as your favored enemies, actually go out and meet some elementals and beasts, and memorize locate creature. Or, you know, hire a Ranger, with your pile of gold you have since magical items don't exist and there was presumably something in all those chests you opened on the way to this silly one-on-one fight with this Druid.

Alternately, tell the Druid you're going to come for the fight, but then just never make it, and find a friend to cast plane shift on you and leave that stupid world behind forever, a world which will inevitably fall into some Druid-focused totalitarian nightmare.

[Eslin]

They're not gonna hit? 1 out of 20 strikes are critical hits. I suppose if the Druid's got foresight up, that number goes down somewhere that doesn't really matter, since you can always just hire more archers. Plus, they don't have to crit, since the elemental forms you'll want to use to avoid too much archery damage have 15 and 17 AC. Since you can't really fly away from archery, having a burrow speed seems like a better option, but hopefully you avoid popping up next to the PC, who you probably can't tell apart from all the archers running around and who can use a Sentinel-and-Mage-Slayer-powered OA to just keep you above ground long enough to get a Druid pincushion set up.
Of course they're not gonna get hit. What kind of level 20 druid would be stupid enough to get close to an army that is trying to kill them? If you must deal with them personally, fly a couple of kilometres into the air or hide underground, cast control weather and toggle the settings to 'storm' 'arctic cold' and 'blizzard' (though only the arctic cold part is really needed, -50C is gonna kill them pretty damn fast)


Also, hide? Be a Ranger, take elementals and beasts as your favored enemies, actually go out and meet some elementals and beasts, and memorize locate creature. Or, you know, hire a Ranger, with your pile of gold you have since magical items don't exist and there was presumably something in all those chests you opened on the way to this silly one-on-one fight with this Druid.
Again, 31 passive perception's usually a problem there. Though I might change that, someone pointed out that ability boosts and feats are class features too and therefore retained in wild shape, might move the best druid build to being just +12 dexterity or something for mid 20s AC on high natural armour low dexterity forms.


Alternately, tell the Druid you're going to come for the fight, but then just never make it, and find a friend to cast plane shift on you and leave that stupid world behind forever, a world which will inevitably fall into some Druid-focused totalitarian nightmare.
It'll be a three way war between the druids, the bards and the wizards =P

[MadBear]

Why does the druid start wildshaped and in the air? Because it's a druid. Once you can permanently wild shape, there's absolutely no reason to sit around on the ground in human form.

Why does he have the warcaster and observant feats? Because it's a really good caster feat and because he had 19 wisdom so I took a feat that boosted wisdom to bring it to 20 respectively.
The druid doesn't have prep time - there's a vague awareness there'll be a fight, so he casts foresight like everyone else would (while a few kilometres in the air) and goes searching.

This isn't 'looking at it from the other side', this is you telling me I'm stacking the deck when I had a perfectly fair reason for every condition the fight had.

Fair reason or not, you have in fact stacked the deck.

Also, you're using a gamist mindset in a real world setting.

Why would a druid cast foresight automatically? having the ability on-hand to ressurect someone, cast storm of vengeance, or shapechange are all spells that would very much be something a druid might prepare on any given day. But you've chosen to give them the best buff possible instead.

Why would a druid spend all day hanging out in the air as an elemental? I don't know, maybe he prefers the land, like interacting with wildlife, prefers his human form, etc.

Why does he have the warcaster and observant feats? Because it was the best gamist feats for what you could get. It in no way reflects what a person would necessarily do other then to make them the best in your scenario.

Again, my point is that a druid decked out with every ability to maximize their chance (or any full caster) to win a PVP in their favored setting, wins against a non-full caster.

[Eslin]

Fair reason or not, you have in fact stacked the deck.

Also, you're using a gamist mindset in a real world setting.

Why would a druid cast foresight automatically? having the ability on-hand to ressurect someone, cast storm of vengeance, or shapechange are all spells that would very much be something a druid might prepare on any given day. But you've chosen to give them the best buff possible instead.

Why would a druid spend all day hanging out in the air as an elemental? I don't know, maybe he prefers the land, like interacting with wildlife, prefers his human form, etc.

Why does he have the warcaster and observant feats? Because it was the best gamist feats for what you could get. It in no way reflects what a person would necessarily do other then to make them the best in your scenario.

Again, my point is that a druid decked out with every ability to maximize their chance (or any full caster) to win a PVP in their favored setting, wins against a non-full caster.
Yes, I gave them the best buff possible. The reason for that can be found in the words 'the best buff possible' - foresight gives you an all day non concentration amazing buff, when you have a variety of active abilities the ability to convert any of them to useful passive bonuses should usually be taken.

The druid has warcaster because pretty much every caster wants warcaster, and has observant because the character had 19 wisdom and I figured using a feat to get it to 20 wisdom was better than spending the other point on charisma or something.

And yeah, there are plenty of reasons for a druid to assume different forms - but the basis for this was 'here's a cross section of land, both characters know they need to kill the other', the druid's not gonna be hanging around licking deer when that's going on. You're welcome to posit different scenarios if you want, but note that most of them favour the druid because the druid has so many more options than a martial character does.

[McBars]

Fair reason or not, you have in fact stacked the deck.

Also, you're using a gamist mindset in a real world setting.

Why would a druid cast foresight automatically? having the ability on-hand to ressurect someone, cast storm of vengeance, or shapechange are all spells that would very much be something a druid might prepare on any given day. But you've chosen to give them the best buff possible instead.

Why would a druid spend all day hanging out in the air as an elemental? I don't know, maybe he prefers the land, like interacting with wildlife, prefers his human form, etc.

Why does he have the warcaster and observant feats? Because it was the best gamist feats for what you could get. It in no way reflects what a person would necessarily do other then to make them the best in your scenario.

Again, my point is that a druid decked out with every ability to maximize their chance (or any full caster) to win a PVP in their favored setting, wins against a non-full caster.

Of course the deck is stacked in the Druids favor and a gamist mindset is employed, because this is a theory crafting thread; an academic exercise.

If the thread was about a "real "druid, which is to say one that might be made by a player who does not intend to engage in or foresee combat with a pc melee character, then yes your points might have some weight behind them. As it stands though, The point of the thread is to issue a challenge to the forum to design another theoretical melee character and attempt to kill the Druid with it.

[Nargrakhan]

+1 To unfair stacked deck.

I'm sure we could creatively do the same for the martial. I don't know... a sealed 750 feet chamber with an active antimagic field constantly going and well lighted.

But yea... stacking the deck so blatantly and hardcore is only full filling a "martials suck, druids rock" mindset, or having a community brainpool to find an ultra rare combination/loophole a martial might possibly beat a druid so overwhelmingly stacked, so one could find a defense for it.



Of course the deck is stacked in the Druids favor and a gamist mindset is employed, because this is a theory crafting thread; an academic exercise.

IMHO it's just an exercise in futility. We could sit here and have that same druid fight that same fighter in the area of an inescapable and uncancellable antimagic field, without magic items (because somehow in this insane scenario, it was the fighter who somehow was crazy prepared and stacked the odds in HIS favor). Said druid is gonna die, practically no matter what, the way the game system stands.

[McBars]

+1 To unfair stacked deck.

I'm sure we could creatively do the same for the martial. I don't know... a sealed 750 feet chamber with an active antimagic field constantly going and well lighted.

But yea... stacking the deck so blatantly and hardcore is only full filling a "martials suck, druids rock" mindset, or having a community brainpool to find an ultra rare combination/loophole a martial might possibly beat a druid so overwhelmingly stacked, so one could find a defense for it.

I'll agree with a lot of this, in fact most of it, the exception perhaps being the "martials suck druids rock mindset." Eslin likes tricks, and he was very upfront in stating that the point of this thread was to see if anybody could come up with any tricks or clever strategies to overcome the advantages of the theoretically crafted druid he presented in the OP.

However no one was forced to respond to OP or attempt to rise to the challenge he presented, So while the deck may be heavily stacked I don't understand why people are complaining about it.

[Eslin]

+1 To unfair stacked deck.

I'm sure we could creatively do the same for the martial. I don't know... a sealed 750 feet chamber with an active antimagic field constantly going and well lighted.

But yea... stacking the deck so blatantly and hardcore is only full filling a "martials suck, druids rock" mindset, or having a community brainpool to find an ultra rare combination/loophole a martial might possibly beat a druid so overwhelmingly stacked, so one could find a defense for it.

IMHO it's just an exercise in futility. We could sit here and have that same druid fight that same fighter in the area of an inescapable and uncancellable antimagic field, without magic items (because somehow in this insane scenario, it was the fighter who somehow was crazy prepared and stacked the odds in HIS favor). Said druid is gonna die, practically no matter what, the way the game system stands.
Really resenting the stacked deck thing here. I created a druid off the top of my head in a couple of minutes, giving it the stats and feats you'd give to a level 20 druid. Then I nominated a fairly common biome. That's not stacking the deck, that wasn't selected to be in the druid's favour, it just happens that druids have an advantage in pretty much every situation over a fighter.

Stacking the deck would be a sealed 750 chamber with 20 antimagic fields in it like you suggested, which actually IS incredibly unlikely, as opposed to my suggestion of an incredibly common location. The druid wasn't 'crazy prepared', all he did is cast foresight at the start of the day and fly around. If anything the martial has the advantage - I just posted what I would do if I was a level 20 druid facing a vague threat, while each poster gets to create a martial character built specifically to kill the druid.

[Perseus]

Really resenting the stacked deck thing here. I created a druid off the top of my head in a couple of minutes, giving it the stats and feats you'd give to a level 20 druid. Then I nominated a fairly common biome. That's not stacking the deck, that wasn't selected to be in the druid's favour, it just happens that druids have an advantage in pretty much every situation over a fighter.

Stacking the deck would be a sealed 750 chamber with 20 antimagic fields in it like you suggested, which actually IS incredibly unlikely, as opposed to my suggestion of an incredibly common location. The druid wasn't 'crazy prepared', all he did is cast foresight at the start of the day and fly around.


Which really, flying around instead of being underground is the nice thing to do while someone is out to kill you... Hell for the most part the druid doesn't even need to fight the fighter or whoever... The druid could pretty much play keep away and there is nothing the fighter (or whoever) can do about it.

Martial burns down the forest? Well a nature cleric and a few druids will come as backup...

Besides, the martial needs to sleep sometime, the druid can offset his sleep schedule (sleeping underground, build a small cave that the fighter won't be able to find small or smaller creatures only) and keep tabs on when the fighter sleeps... *insert crushed fighter*.

Are sleeping targets considered willing in this edition?

[archaeo]

However no one was forced to respond to OP or attempt to rise to the challenge he presented, So while the deck may be heavily stacked I don't understand why people are complaining about it.

People are complaining because it's a challenge with a definite "political" slant; Druids are better than martials, another brick in the "casters rule, martials drool" wall of criticism that has been leveled against 5e before the system was even finished. Eslin didn't appear out of the blue, issuing a challenge from on high, he's been around the subforum for months and certainly seems to hold the opinion that 5e is a "caster edition."

Naturally, every time this argument comes up, no matter the particulars of the given caster or given martial, the evidence marshaled in favor of caster supremacy takes the form of these 1v1 duels, or other "white room" set-ups that assume the caster is perfectly optimized and always has the right spells prepared. You'll notice that none of these arguments are really based in at-the-table play; the only time "real" evidence has shown up is the contention that Moon Druids are unreasonably powerful before level 5, which is a pretty reasonable complaint that will probably get addressed in errata someday.

Otherwise, we're just having an empty theory argument that has absolutely nothing to do with the system's actual balance in actual expected play.

[Eslin]

People are complaining because it's a challenge with a definite "political" slant; Druids are better than martials, another brick in the "casters rule, martials drool" wall of criticism that has been leveled against 5e before the system was even finished. Eslin didn't appear out of the blue, issuing a challenge from on high, he's been around the subforum for months and certainly seems to hold the opinion that 5e is a "caster edition."

Naturally, every time this argument comes up, no matter the particulars of the given caster or given martial, the evidence marshaled in favor of caster supremacy takes the form of these 1v1 duels, or other "white room" set-ups that assume the caster is perfectly optimized and always has the right spells prepared. You'll notice that none of these arguments are really based in at-the-table play; the only time "real" evidence has shown up is the contention that Moon Druids are unreasonably powerful before level 5, which is a pretty reasonable complaint that will probably get addressed in errata someday.

Otherwise, we're just having an empty theory argument that has absolutely nothing to do with the system's actual balance in actual expected play.

Not really. I created this thread because of the druid v fighter thread, wanted to open it up a bit. I know a druid is more all around useful than a fighter is, I don't need to create a thread to confirm that and a 1v1 fight would be a terrible way of doing so because that's not something that actually matters in gameplay.

[MunkeeGamer]

Just studied this thread for a while. I'm willing to concede the OP's point. Without the use of magic or magic items the martial class won't have sufficient options to exceed the druid's ability to reply.

Sidenote: There were some gamist/simulationist points brought up. I think this thought experiment is perfectly valid in terms of simulationist context.

--Self proclaimed emperor god-king Rygar, the lvl 20 <Martial class>, is looking to annex the druid's land for resources. Given that he's a cocky bastard, he sends the druid a message that he's coming for her precious grove. Lynwe, the lvl 20 druid, was willing to maintain peace but won't take a threat like this lightly. Rygar must be shown the fury of nature disrespected. She will make an example of Rygar by embarassing him or killing, if she must. <OP's scenario then begins to unfold>

So, to me, given the nearly ulimited nature of D&D storytelling, this scenario is just as likely as any other. Of course the conditions might be different in another scenario, but those scenarios are for thought experiment.

And let's be clear, this doesn't make the Druid broken at all. It just suggests that under these detailed conditions, the Druid PC class is going to win against non-caster classes who are not equipped with magic items in battle against each other (which shouldn't happen much anyway.)

[Perseus]

Just studied this thread for a while. I'm willing to concede the OP's point. Without the use of magic or magic items the martial class won't have sufficient options to exceed the druid's ability to reply.

Sidenote: There were some gamist/simulationist points brought up. I think this thought experiment is perfectly valid in terms of simulationist context.

--Self proclaimed emperor god-king Rygar, the lvl 20 <Martial class>, is looking to annex the druid's land for resources. Given that he's a cocky bastard, he sends the druid a message that he's coming for her precious grove. Lynwe, the lvl 20 druid, was willing to maintain peace but won't take a threat like this lightly. Rygar must be shown the fury of nature disrespected. She will make an example of Rygar by embarassing him or killing, if she must. <OP's scenario then begins to unfold>

So, to me, given the nearly ulimited nature of D&D storytelling, this scenario is just as likely as any other. Of course the conditions might be different in another scenario, but those scenarios are for thought experiment.

And let's be clear, this doesn't make the Druid broken at all. It just suggests that under these detailed conditions, the Druid PC class is going to win against non-caster classes who are not equipped with magic items in battle against each other (which shouldn't happen much anyway.)

Personally, I think that the druid in this case, should be the bar of what can be expected at high levels from all classes and sub classes. Let's make getting to high level actually worth it for everyone along for the ride.

[McBars]

People are complaining because it's a challenge with a definite "political" slant; Druids are better than martials, another brick in the "casters rule, martials drool" wall of criticism that has been leveled against 5e before the system was even finished. Eslin didn't appear out of the blue, issuing a challenge from on high, he's been around the subforum for months and certainly seems to hold the opinion that 5e is a "caster edition."

Oh believe me, I know :cool:

I'm sure I surface on most of the threads you're referring to, typically in strong opposition to much of the flimflam he likes to throw around.

I guess my point is, if indeed I have one, that at a glance the situation he postulates is so clearly in support of those views of his that you've pointed out that it seems silly to engage in this exercise while pretending that it is not loaded from the beginning. That just seems like denial

[Eslin]

Oh believe me, I know :cool:

I'm sure I surface on most of the threads you're referring to, typically in strong opposition to much of the flimflam he likes to throw around.

I guess my point is, if indeed I have one, that at a glance the situation he postulates is so clearly in support of those views of his that you've pointed out that it seems silly to engage in this exercise while pretending that it is not loaded from the beginning. That just seems like denial

Again, how was this supposed to be loaded? I created a fixed level 20 character with no optimisation beyond 'this looks about right', then gave him normal behaviour for someone expecting a fight and asked people how they'd kill him. It is my observation from reading this thread that people are reading the amount of utility advantage a druid has in almost any situation and reading that as 'loaded'.

[Nargrakhan]

Really resenting the stacked deck thing here.

I'm not here to make enemies, ruffle feathers, or whatnot. I'm not someone who frequents here regularly, so I have no idea who or what the forum regulars are like. It's just I'm always seeing these caster vs. martial posts all over the place, and they generally end the same way because the caster gets to be so crazy prepared. I rarely see a serious thread that tries to have a caster with all the odds stacked against him (i.e. can't use magic at all), suggest measures to beat a crazy prepared fighter. Why? Because it's futile and/or requires a set of scenarios in which the martial is still somehow incapacitated/disadvantaged and the caster is not.

IMHO it's a stacked deck. You disagree, and I'm cool with that. But I still think it's as pointless an exercise as having an extremely handicapped caster versus a supremely prepared martial.

My sincere apologies for having past frustrations of the frequency for these kind of posts, making me seem confrontational. Was not the intention.

[Eslin]

I'm not here to make enemies, ruffle feathers, or whatnot. I'm not someone who frequents here regularly, so I have no idea who or what the forum regulars are like. It's just I'm always seeing these caster vs. martial posts all over the place, and they generally end the same way because the caster gets to be so crazy prepared. I rarely see a serious thread that tries to have a caster with all the odds stacked against him (i.e. can't use magic at all), suggest measures to beat a crazy prepared fighter. Why? Because it's futile and/or requires a set of scenarios in which the martial is still somehow incapacitated/disadvantaged and the caster is not.

IMHO it's a stacked deck. You disagree, and I'm cool with that. But I still think it's as pointless an exercise as having an extremely handicapped caster versus a supremely prepared martial.

My sincere apologies for having past frustrations of the frequency for these kind of posts, making me seem confrontational. Was not the intention.
I don't mind confrontational, it makes people honest. I'm just confused because there is no crazy preparation, just a druid casting an all day buff on himself and flying around and taking druid staples as his spell list. The martial's the one who gets crazy preparation, since I gave everyone the chance to tailor the martial's build specifically for the upcoming fight.

[McBars]

Again, how was this supposed to be loaded? I created a fixed level 20 character with no optimisation beyond 'this looks about right', then gave him normal behaviour for someone expecting a fight and asked people how they'd kill him. It is my observation from reading this thread that people are reading the amount of utility advantage a druid has in almost any situation and reading that as 'loaded'.

The two things that stand out to me, even more so than the use of foresight which everybody seems so hung up on, are:

That the druid knows the martial character is in the vicinity and trying to kill him.
The fight takes place in an environment that while exceedingly common, gives all the tactical advantages to be prepared Druid.


No semi-intelligent combatant would attempt to engage the druid under either of those circumstances, Where he or she is at a massive tactical disadvantage; Perhaps the second is unavoidable due to the way that druids operate and tend to protect or at least dwell in a certain area, but any martial who doesn't at least attempt to ambush the druid and take him at unawares is just being suicidal.

That said, those are the stipulations you picked and people complaining about them seem silly to me.

[Perseus]

I don't mind confrontational, it makes people honest. I'm just confused because there is no crazy preparation, just a druid casting an all day buff on himself and flying around and taking druid staples as his spell list. The martial's the one who gets crazy preparation, since I gave everyone the chance to tailor the martial's build specifically for the upcoming fight.

People can't see the difference between a loaded scenario and just a flat out uneven match. Its uneven not because of the scenario but because martials can't touch casters as of yet...

Though I feel like a martial would have an easier time against a wizard than a druid ... So they may feel you picked the biggest mofo (which you didn't really pick, it came from another thread) to have martials try to take out instead of a lower powered caster (umm...) for martials to take out.

Saying your scenarios are a stack deck is like saying non-NES TMNT video games are all stacked against you... (NES TMNT is definitely stacked against you).

[Z3ro]

just a druid casting an all day buff on himself

This is my issue with the scenario; foresight is in noway an all day buff. It's a 1/3 day buff, only up 8 of the 24 hours in a day. So either A) the druid hides in his hole the other 16 hours in a day (which should be specified), or B) the druid needs to cast the spell at the start of the encounter. IMO being wildshaped and flying are reasonable (if situational) actions to expect from a druid, foresight is not.

ETA:


People can't see the difference between a loaded scenario and just a flat out uneven match. Its uneven not because of the scenario but because martials can't touch casters as of yet...


It's not that martials can't touch casters; it's that the moon druid presents a special challenge to a martial, as martials specialize in dealing damage and they have near-infinite HP. Other casters are much more vulnerable to martials.

[archaeo]

I don't mind confrontational, it makes people honest. I'm just confused because there is no crazy preparation, just a druid casting an all day buff on himself and flying around and taking druid staples as his spell list. The martial's the one who gets crazy preparation, since I gave everyone the chance to tailor the martial's build specifically for the upcoming fight.

It's a perfectly optimized Druid loaded out with feats, the assumption that it has "generally useful spells" (which is vague enough to mean "exactly the right spells"), in an environment tailored to its strengths utilizing five perfectly optimal strategies. Every suggestion people have made is met with the Druid doing exactly the right thing to counter it.

Things would be awfully different if a Druid and their opponent were whisked away from a normal day and forced to fight in a 50' x 50' demiplane.

[Nargrakhan]

I don't mind confrontational, it makes people honest. I'm just confused because there is no crazy preparation, just a druid casting an all day buff on himself and flying around and taking druid staples as his spell list. The martial's the one who gets crazy preparation, since I gave everyone the chance to tailor the martial's build specifically for the upcoming fight.

IMHO an intelligent martial would NEVER enter combat in the scenario you've outlined. If this is a level 20 martial knowingly facing a level 20 caster, he'd put every resource he has into rigging a battlefield in which the odds were predominantly in his favor. Good 'ole Art of War stuff. A battle is won BEFORE it's fought... not just dragging yourself into it and making plans on the fly when you get there.

He WOULDN'T face a Druid in the open wilderness. He WOULDN'T face a Druid with full spell slots. He WOULDN'T face a Druid without overlapping antimagic fields and inescapable confines. Otherwise it's like we have a stupid fighter signing his own suicide note. A martial doesn't have a resource of spells at his disposal and KNOWS it... therefore his entire strategy would be to DENY his caster any casting ability -- direct or indirect -- because that would be the martial's strength.

What you've outlined is a martial having the strategic experience of someone who should have never made it to level 2, let alone level 20... and the caster having the tactical wisdom of Sun Tsu and Clausewitz combined.

[Eslin]

The two things that stand out to me, even more so than the use of foresight which everybody seems so hung up on, are:

That the druid knows the martial character is in the vicinity and trying to kill him.
The fight takes place in an environment that while exceedingly common, gives all the tactical advantages to be prepared Druid.


No semi-intelligent combatant would attempt to engage the druid under either of those circumstances, Where he or she is at a massive tactical disadvantage; Perhaps the second is unavoidable due to the way that druids operate and tend to protect or at least dwell in a certain area, but any martial who doesn't at least attempt to ambush the druid and take him at unawares is just being suicidal.

That said, those are the stipulations you picked and people complaining about them seem silly to me.

The martial character also knows the druid is in the area and trying to kill him, it evens out.
And for the second - A, most of the world is covered in natural areas, urban ones are far less common and B, I didn't want to make it take place in a city because that adds a huge amount of difficult to adjudicate factors. B is most of the reason - it's much more difficult to say what a city full of elves would do than a forest full of nothing.


This is my issue with the scenario; foresight is in noway an all day buff. It's a 1/3 day buff, only up 8 of the 24 hours in a day. So either A) the druid hides in his hole the other 16 hours in a day (which should be specified), or B) the druid needs to cast the spell at the start of the encounter. IMO being wildshaped and flying are reasonable (if situational) actions to expect from a druid, foresight is not.

It's not that martials can't touch casters; it's that the moon druid presents a special challenge to a martial, as martials specialize in dealing damage and they have near-infinite HP. Other casters are much more vulnerable to martials.

Foresight seems reasonable, it seems to cover most of the adventuring day. As a side note, the druid really does get the choice in these engagements - if foresight wears off, he can just go 300 feet below ground and rest 'til it's back up, but in any case the area wasn't so big so I figured the fight would happen much earlier in than 8 hours.


IMHO an intelligent martial would NEVER enter combat in the scenario you've outlined. If this is a level 20 martial knowingly facing a level 20 caster, he'd put every resource he has into rigging a battlefield in which the odds were predominantly in his favor. Good 'ole Art of War stuff. A battle is won BEFORE it's fought... not just dragging yourself into it and making plans on the fly when you get there.

He WOULDN'T face a Druid in the open wilderness. He WOULDN'T face a Druid with full spell slots. He WOULDN'T face a Druid without overlapping antimagic fields and inescapable confines. Otherwise it's like we have a stupid fighter signing his own suicide note. A martial doesn't have a resource of spells at his disposal and KNOWS it... therefore his entire strategy would be to DENY his caster any casting ability -- direct or indirect -- because that would be the martial's strength.

What you've outlined is a martial having the strategic experience of someone who should have never made it to level 2, let alone level 20... and the caster having the tactical wisdom of Sun Tsu and Clausewitz combined.
That is an entirely reasonable point. You're completely right, no martial survives to level 20 by acting that way. The main problem is if the martial doesn't, we don't get to have this thread.

[MunkeeGamer]

He WOULDN'T face a Druid in the open wilderness. He WOULDN'T face a Druid with full spell slots. He WOULDN'T face a Druid without overlapping antimagic fields and inescapable confines. Otherwise it's like we have a stupid fighter signing his own suicide note. A martial doesn't have a resource of spells at his disposal and KNOWS it... therefore his entire strategy would be to DENY his caster any casting ability -- direct or indirect -- because that would be the martial's strength.

Ok. So don't take it personally. Just admit, given the conditions, the martial would either lose or never engage to begin with. That's fine. You don't lose anything by admitting that conclusion.

All of this--it's a thought experiment designed to reveal the utility in magic and magic items. The conclusion is neither profound nor ground breaking. A martial class, equipped with magic equipment, will be able to win against this particular caster. A martial class, without magic equipment, would not win against this particular caster.

[Z3ro]

Foresight seems reasonable, it seems to cover most of the adventuring day. As a side note, the druid really does get the choice in these engagements - if foresight wears off, he can just go 300 feet below ground and rest 'til it's back up, but in any case the area wasn't so big so I figured the fight would happen much earlier in than 8 hours.


I agree that foresight up all adventuring day is reasonable; most parties now when they'll be fighting, and few encounter series last longer than 8 hours unless the party wants them to. I just object to the idea that a random druid would have it up when meeting a random fighter, or that this druid is so cowardly he spends 16 hours a day hiding underground.

[Eslin]

Ok. So don't take it personally. Just admit, given the conditions, the martial would either lose or never engage to begin with. That's fine. You don't lose anything by admitting that conclusion.

All of this--it's a thought experiment designed to reveal the utility in magic and magic items. The conclusion is neither profound nor ground breaking. A martial class, equipped with magic equipment, will be able to win against this particular caster. A martial class, without magic equipment, would not win against this particular caster.

We can't really know that - we don't know what most equipment does, we don't know what benefits a fighter or druid will get from most magic items.


I agree that foresight up all adventuring day is reasonable; most parties now when they'll be fighting, and few encounter series last longer than 8 hours unless the party wants them to. I just object to the idea that a random druid would have it up when meeting a random fighter, or that this druid is so cowardly he spends 16 hours a day hiding underground.
From experience, the only reason the party stopped adventuring in 8 hour foresight based days is because they realised true polymorphing everyone into dragons worked better.

[Perseus]

The martial character also knows the druid is in the area and trying to kill him, it evens out.
And for the second - A, most of the world is covered in natural areas, urban ones are far less common and B, I didn't want to make it take place in a city because that adds a huge amount of difficult to adjudicate factors. B is most of the reason - it's much more difficult to say what a city full of elves would do than a forest full of nothing.



Foresight seems reasonable, it seems to cover most of the adventuring day. As a side note, the druid really does get the choice in these engagements - if foresight wears off, he can just go 300 feet below ground and rest 'til it's back up, but in any case the area wasn't so big so I figured the fight would happen much earlier in than 8 hours.


That is an entirely reasonable point. You're completely right, no martial survives to level 20 by acting that way. The main problem is if the martial doesn't, we don't get to have this thread.

Which is a win for the druid, if all the non-caster say "Nah man, I don't even need this job" to the king/queen who wants to annex the druid's territory.

Which is a sad but true issue for the game. If it was a rock paper scissors match up type deal then it wouldn't be so bad but the Druid going into a city (neutral city) could pull off what people want the martials want to do.

Also, does it bug anyone else that foresight has language hinting at you can cast it more than once per day?

[Ghost Nappa]

IMHO an intelligent martial would NEVER enter combat in the scenario you've outlined. If this is a level 20 martial knowingly facing a level 20 caster, he'd put every resource he has into rigging a battlefield in which the odds were predominantly in his favor. Good 'ole Art of War stuff. A battle is won BEFORE it's fought... not just dragging yourself into it and making plans on the fly when you get there.

He WOULDN'T face a Druid in the open wilderness. He WOULDN'T face a Druid with full spell slots. He WOULDN'T face a Druid without overlapping antimagic fields and inescapable confines. Otherwise it's like we have a stupid fighter signing his own suicide note. A martial doesn't have a resource of spells at his disposal and KNOWS it... therefore his entire strategy would be to DENY his caster any casting ability -- direct or indirect -- because that would be the martial's strength.

What you've outlined is a martial having the strategic experience of someone who should have never made it to level 2, let alone level 20.


Half-orc rogue assassin 12 / shadow monk 6 / fighter 2, feats include alert, mage slayer, and war caster, and sentinel. Dex is 20, and he has dueling which works with unaramed strikes. He stays hidden using pass without trace, great stealth, and high move speed. He locates the druid by looking up at the flier and staying close enough not to lose him. He waits until the druid begins a rest, or at least until foresight wears off.

At this point, we have reasonably guaranteed a full surprise round followed by likely winning initiative. The monk can cast darkness on himself to further guarantee advantage on attacks. Two rounds of sneak attack, 12 total attacks with one round of 8 guaranteed-crits, will kill the druid. If the druid tries to cast a spell as a reaction or run, the monk assassin reacts via mage slayer or sentinel to cast silence via shadow monk and war caster.

A rogue assassin 3 / barbarian 17 can do the same thing, but is less likely to get the opportunity.


And that's why you DON'T act in response to the Druid's Strategies. You work around them entirely.

The entire purpose of this thread is a challenge: can it be done? Resenting an entirely optional challenge for being unfair is not very useful as a criticism.

I thought up a strategy where an Elven Fighter could fight the Druid with a War of Attrition after Foresight is over, kiting the Druid at night, healing from Second Winds after Short rests, and repeatedly attacking the Druid while he attempts to regenerate his Spell slots. When whatever moderator decides you need a long Rest, you're in luck because Elves only need to trance for four hours, which is twice as long as the human druid.

The Druid can heal himself from expending spell slots until the cows come home, smart fighting will burn him down to cantrips. At that point, the Druid is down to just Wildshape forms which all have less HP than the human form, and while they all have their own tricks, a Level 20 Fighter either has Magic Weapons, or the Magic Weapon spell (from Eldritch Knight).

[MunkeeGamer]

We can't really know that - we don't know what most equipment does, we don't know what benefits a fighter or druid will get from most magic items.

That's true, we don't know with certainty. But I felt the lvl20 rogue with dimension door and anti magic field was pretty compelling. I'm not sure what sort of items a druid could have that would counter that combo in this scenario.

[Nargrakhan]

Ok. So don't take it personally. Just admit, given the conditions, the martial would either lose or never engage to begin with. That's fine. You don't lose anything by admitting that conclusion.

All of this--it's a thought experiment designed to reveal the utility in magic and magic items. The conclusion is neither profound nor ground breaking. A martial class, equipped with magic equipment, will be able to win against this particular caster. A martial class, without magic equipment, would not win against this particular caster.

Not taking it personal. Just stating the obvious. I already said the exercise was an act of futility several times. The odds are so overwhelmingly stacked in this scenario, there's no way the martial could win. However I could also do the same against the caster and have the martial have a 100% victory ratio.

A caster using magic to curb stomp a martial is perfectly fine with me. That's what casters do. Just how a martial curb stomping a caster, would involve removing every ounce of magic the caster has... that's what martials do.

[Eslin]

Which is a win for the druid, if all the non-caster say "Nah man, I don't even need this job" to the king/queen who wants to annex the druid's territory.

Which is a sad but true issue for the game. If it was a rock paper scissors match up type deal then it wouldn't be so bad but the Druid going into a city (neutral city) could pull off what people want the martials want to do.

Also, does it bug anyone else that foresight has language hinting at you can cast it more than once per day?

YES! Thank god, the whole 'this spell immediately ends if you cast it again before the duration ends' thing bugs the hell out of me. Why on earth is it there?


That's true, we don't know with certainty. But I felt the lvl20 rogue with dimension door and anti magic field was pretty compelling. I'm not sure what sort of items a druid could have that would counter that combo in this scenario.

Which is why I said barring a strategy that involves no magic items at all working, we have a winner.

[MunkeeGamer]

Not taking it personal. Just stating the obvious. I already said the exercise was an act of futility several times. The odds are so overwhelmingly stacked in this scenario, there's no way the martial could win. However I could also do the same against the caster and have the martial have a 100% victory ratio.

A caster using magic to curb stomp a martial is perfectly fine with me. That's what casters do. Just how a martial curb stomping a caster, would involve removing every ounce of magic the caster has... that's what martials do.

Yep. And running through the motions makes you think critically. It makes you explore what your character might do in a dire situation. It could create creative and interesting story telling possibilities. The forum's collective consciousness is certainly stronger than any of us on our own. I was happy to see the ideas, even the failed ones.

[archaeo]

Resenting an entirely optional challenge for being unfair is not very useful as a criticism.

It is when the challenge comes with an implicit thesis about the system's balance. This challenge is a "criticism" all its own, and being critical about poorly formed criticism is not at all unreasonable.

Which isn't to say that I "resent" the thread, or anything; I just find that it reveals nothing useful about 5e as a game, Druids as a class, or the wider caster vs. martial debate. As a thought experiment about the available rules, I can certainly see the fun to be had, but it doesn't actually have anything to do with the game you use the rules to play.

[Perseus]

Not taking it personal. Just stating the obvious. I already said the exercise was an act of futility several times. The odds are so overwhelmingly stacked in this scenario, there's no way the martial could win. However I could also do the same against the caster and have the martial have a 100% victory ratio.

A caster using magic to curb stomp a martial is perfectly fine with me. That's what casters do. Just how a martial curb stomping a caster, would involve removing every ounce of magic the caster has... that's what martials do.

Bolded and Underlined by me.

Or you know, you could allow for a game where non-caster are awesome and can do amazing things so that not only mechanically but narratively, you have a check and balance for casters within the game and game world.

A Fighter shouldn't have to take away the casters magic to be a threat, the fighter should be able to be awesome that the caster needs magic to keep up.

Basically it boils down the Black Mage and Fighter... They should be even on terms of power but the reason Black Mage wins is because he thought ahead or had a tactic Fighter didn't think of.

Now replace Black Mage and Fighter with any combination of D&D classes... And make everyone awesome, and you have a game that makes sense mechanically and narratively.

Mechanically, what's the point of going 20 levels when you stop Growth of Awesome or "GoA" (TM) at level 10?

And without checks and balances in the game world, what sense is there to have all these barbarians and fighters if a single caster can take out a whole platoon of them?

[McBars]

The martial character also knows the druid is in the area and trying to kill him, it evens out.

Yes, I suppose my point in listing that item was because it seems that it benefits the druid far more than it does the martial character

Ive never really thought about this or searchedfor an answer for that matter but can wild shape be dispelled?

[Perseus]

Yes, I suppose my point in listing that item was because it seems that it benefits the druid far more than it does the martial character

Ive never really thought about this or searchedfor an answer for that matter but can wild shape be dispelled?

Power Word Kill would dispell the wildshape but I don't think it would kill the Druid (Schrödinger's HP).

[McBars]

Power Word Kill would dispell the wildshape but I don't think it would kill the Druid (Schrödinger's HP).

No I was thinking that the resultant fall after the druid is forced out of wild shape in midair would kill him.

[Eslin]

Yes, I suppose my point in listing that item was because it seems that it benefits the druid far more than it does the martial character

Ive never really thought about this or searchedfor an answer for that matter but can wild shape be dispelled?

Nope, dispel only works on spells. And yes it does benefit the druid more than the martial character, which is part of why the deck looks stacked - the problem is the druid has such versatile capabilities that most conditions favour them.


Bolded and Underlined by me.

Or you know, you could allow for a game where non-caster are awesome and can do amazing things so that not only mechanically but narratively, you have a check and balance for casters within the game and game world.

A Fighter shouldn't have to take away the casters magic to be a threat, the fighter should be able to be awesome that the caster needs magic to keep up.

Basically it boils down the Black Mage and Fighter... They should be even on terms of power but the reason Black Mage wins is because he thought ahead or had a tactic Fighter didn't think of.

Now replace Black Mage and Fighter with any combination of D&D classes... And make everyone awesome, and you have a game that makes sense mechanically and narratively.

Mechanically, what's the point of going 20 levels when you stop Growth of Awesome or "GoA" (TM) at level 10?

And without checks and balances in the game world, what sense is there to have all these barbarians and fighters if a single caster can take out a whole platoon of them?

Are we talking 8 bit theatre black mage and fighter? Because I though 8BT actually did martials very well. When the mages are making their own dimensions and turning the party into dragons, the party rogue should be doing stuff like this as a matter of course.

http://v.cdn.nuklearpower.com/comics/8-bit-theater/080119.png

[Perseus]

Are we talking 8 bit theatre black mage and fighter? Because I though 8BT actually did martials very well. When the mages are making their own dimension and turning the party into dragons, the party rogue should be doing stuff like this as a matter of course.

http://v.cdn.nuklearpower.com/comics/8-bit-theater/080119.png

Yup, Fighter McFighter was awesome and could block anything (including the earth) without magic.

When they first introduced parry I squeeed a little bit thinking of playing Fighter.

The point is that D&D could learn a thing or two from that webcomic. If you make everyone awesome and put in check and balances then things mechanically and narratively make more sense.

Black Mage even says a fight between them would bebfutile since it would just lead to a stalemate and a razed countryside (or whatever, been a while)...

If a 8 bit webcomic can do it, then why the hell can't D&D.

Black Mage could kill Fighter (tactics and faux friendship) but Black Mage was afraid of Fighter because he knew if he slipped up... Even a little... Fighter could destroy him.


Edit: Also, throwing oneself is fantastic.

[Eslin]

Yup, Fighter McFighter was awesome and could block anything (including the earth) without magic.

When they first introduced parry I squeeed a little bit thinking of playing Fighter.

The point is that D&D could learn a thing or two from that webcomic. If you make everyone awesome and put in check and balances then things mechanically and narratively make more sense.

Black Mage even says a fight between them would bebfutile since it would just lead to a stalemate and a razed countryside (or whatever, been a while)...

If a 8 bit webcomic can do it, then why the hell can't D&D.

Black Mage could kill Fighter (tactics and faux friendship) but Black Mage was afraid of Fighter because he knew if he slipped up... Even a little... Fighter could destroy him.

Yup. Thief threw himself up, dodged explosions while he was in them and could steal secrets, souls and vertebrae. Fighter blocked evil black energy trendrils and the earth (in order to avoid taking falling damage), specialises in breaking an opponent's equipment with his head and was so effective with his swords that 'I tried to show those dragons my new trick, but they exploded'. That is what high level martials should be like.

[Nargrakhan]

Or you know, you could allow for a game where non-caster are awesome and can do amazing things so that not only mechanically but narratively, you have a check and balance for casters within the game and game world.

Such game systems do exist... though 5e (and gods know 3.x) isn't one of them. That aside... yes... I wouldn't mind such a shift.

Martials able to cleave through fireballs, throw air slashes from their sword, move so fast they can interrupt an opponent's attack, and other animesque stuff that martials do in certain fantasy settings. Que complains from people who say, "swordsmen can't do that in real life." Because DnD is totally real life... or a world that's saturated with pure magic power, such power couldn't be channeled through martial discipline and not just spell weaving.

[Perseus]

Yup. Thief threw himself up, dodged explosions while he was in them and could steal secrets, souls and vertebrae. Fighter blocked evil black energy trendrils and the earth (in order to avoid taking falling damage), specialises in breaking an opponent's equipment with his head and was so effective with his swords that 'I tried to show those dragons my new trick, but they exploded'. That is what high level martials should be like.

Don't forget...

Sword Chucks Yo'

[McBars]

Here's some RAW cheese I was pondering: If a successful trip attack is made against a creature in flight is it knocked prone? Furthermore if it's knocked prone per the condition in the PHB and it's only movement option is crawling until it can stand back up again, Does it immediately fall as it can no longer fly?

If so, a clever battle master with skulker, sharpshooter, and the archery fighting style could unleash Some serious cheese against a Druid in-flight via six consecutive trip attacks while hiding.

Absurd I know, the concept of knocking a flying creature prone but what do you think?

[Perseus]

Such game systems do exist... though 5e (and gods know 3.x) isn't one of them. That aside... yes... I wouldn't mind such a shift.

Martials able to cleave through fireballs, throw air slashes from their sword, move so fast they can interrupt an opponent's attack, and other animesque stuff that martials do in certain fantasy settings. Que complains from people who say, "swordsmen can't do that in real life." Because DnD is totally real life... or a world that's saturated with pure magic power, such power couldn't be channeled through martial discipline and not just spell weaving.

And this is the core of the problem as to why people think this question is rigged against the non-caster... It isn't that the question is rigged but the base rules are rigged before the question is asked.

Like playing cards against someone who is cheating, you lost the moment you sat down and played not when after the cards are dealt. I think there was a Haley scene about this.

What's sad is that 5e could have been the game, and has a good core rules (bounded accuracy, advantage system, prof system) where awesome non casters could have been made easily.

But there was a conscious choice to not do that. Even at high levels.

[archaeo]

Such game systems do exist... though 5e (and gods know 3.x) isn't one of them. That aside... yes... I wouldn't mind such a shift.

Martials able to cleave through fireballs, throw air slashes from their sword, move so fast they can interrupt an opponent's attack, and other animesque stuff that martials do in certain fantasy settings. Que complains from people who say, "swordsmen can't do that in real life." Because DnD is totally real life... or a world that's saturated with pure magic power, such power couldn't be channeled through martial discipline and not just spell weaving.

Well, quite a few of these things actually are in 5e. Rogues can dodge the undodgable, Paladins laugh off magical fear, Fighters can resist magical conditions, and Barbarians gain superhuman stats. It just isn't all collected in a single anime-martial class, but spread around between them. 5e has a ton of "martial" abilities that are outright magical, just not enough for some people. It's a class-based system, and having martial classes that are just refluffed caster classes sort of defeats the purpose.

Which, as an aside, is a perfectly reasonable refluffing exercise that any DM would do well to offer. "You want a more magical fighter? Refluff the spellcaster of your choice and we'll talk about how to make it work narratively." Maybe a little more difficult than WotC just releasing Essential Anime or whatever, but it'll do the trick.

In actual play, I think most people will find that the classes enjoy relative balance and it's not at all difficult to ensure that no one player is dominating the campaign every adventure. Martials have protected niches and, thanks to the backgrounds and skills, it's incredibly easy for any given martial character to fill other niches.

[Eslin]

Well, quite a few of these things actually are in 5e. Rogues can dodge the undodgable, Paladins laugh off magical fear, Fighters can resist magical conditions, and Barbarians gain superhuman stats. It just isn't all collected in a single anime-martial class, but spread around between them. 5e has a ton of "martial" abilities that are outright magical, just not enough for some people. It's a class-based system, and having martial classes that are just refluffed caster classes sort of defeats the purpose.

Which, as an aside, is a perfectly reasonable refluffing exercise that any DM would do well to offer. "You want a more magical fighter? Refluff the spellcaster of your choice and we'll talk about how to make it work narratively." Maybe a little more difficult than WotC just releasing Essential Anime or whatever, but it'll do the trick.

In actual play, I think most people will find that the classes enjoy relative balance and it's not at all difficult to ensure that no one player is dominating the campaign every adventure. Martials have protected niches and, thanks to the backgrounds and skills, it's incredibly easy for any given martial character to fill other niches.

Not sure where we're getting anime from - I just wanted the 8 bit theatre thing of martial abilities keeping up with casters. At high level, thief steals people's thoughts, resolve, childhood memories and hides under someone's hat while they're wearing it. Why can't high level characters do that, and what does it have to do with anime?

Though it needs to be said, that last sentence is flat out wrong. The classes do not have relative balance, in and out of combat utility is directly proportionate to how good your spellcasting is - at higher levels, having a caster is flat out more useful than have a martial. And what protected niches do they have? Even in terms sustained taking and dealing hp they're equalled by casters, and they're outperformed in all other aspects.

[archaeo]

Not sure where we're getting anime from - I just wanted the 8 bit theatre thing of martial abilities keeping up with casters. At high level, thief steals people's thoughts, resolve, childhood memories and hides under someone's hat while they're wearing it. Why can't high level characters do that, and what does it have to do with anime?

I was responding to Nargrakhan, who specifically said "animesque." I think it's not uncommon to see people discuss these kinds of "magical" martial abilities as "anime" in nature.

But, for what it's worth, I think it's pretty ridiculous to expect D&D to hew to the norms of a satirical webcomic that has absolutely no need for balance since it runs on jokes and plot. 8 Bit Theater doesn't have to be a fun game, it has to tell a fun story.


Though it needs to be said, that last sentence is flat out wrong. The classes do not have relative balance, in and out of combat utility is directly proportionate to how good your spellcasting is - at higher levels, having a caster is flat out more useful than have a martial.

Yeah, until the spellcaster runs out of spells or had the bad luck to have prepared the wrong spells. A smart caster will let the martials do what they're good at and reserve their spells for doing what they're good at, instead of prancing about, covering every single role in the game at once.


And what protected niches do they have? Even in terms sustained taking and dealing hp they're equalled by casters, and they're outperformed in all other aspects.

I would argue that every class is the best class in the game for what they're designed to do. If you need to traverse the wilderness, you can't do better than a Ranger. If you need to be very dangerous without any equipment at all, the Monk's got you covered. Etc. Some of these classes are not very flexible; you have to basically play to their strengths in order to enjoy the proscribed niche. But the same is true of some caster classes!

They also have the protected niche of actually being "martial" in execution. For those who aren't all that concerned with precise mechanical balance, which WotC believes is most of the playerbase, class-by-class mechanical parity is far less important than how it "feels" to play a class, and I think you'd have a hard time arguing that this edition misses that mark.

[Eslin]

I was responding to Nargrakhan, who specifically said "animesque." I think it's not uncommon to see people discuss these kinds of "magical" martial abilities as "anime" in nature.

But, for what it's worth, I think it's pretty ridiculous to expect D&D to hew to the norms of a satirical webcomic that has absolutely no need for balance since it runs on jokes and plot. 8 Bit Theater doesn't have to be a fun game, it has to tell a fun story.

Yeah, until the spellcaster runs out of spells or had the bad luck to have prepared the wrong spells. A smart caster will let the martials do what they're good at and reserve their spells for doing what they're good at, instead of prancing about, covering every single role in the game at once.

I would argue that every class is the best class in the game for what they're designed to do. If you need to traverse the wilderness, you can't do better than a Ranger. If you need to be very dangerous without any equipment at all, the Monk's got you covered. Etc. Some of these classes are not very flexible; you have to basically play to their strengths in order to enjoy the proscribed niche. But the same is true of some caster classes!

They also have the protected niche of actually being "martial" in execution. For those who aren't all that concerned with precise mechanical balance, which WotC believes is most of the playerbase, class-by-class mechanical parity is far less important than how it "feels" to play a class, and I think you'd have a hard time arguing that this edition misses that mark.
Except don't casters still fill that niche? To follow this thread's example, a druid can both traverse the wilderness as well or better than a ranger (just wind walking the party works best tbh) and can be just as dangerous without equipment as a monk can.

And regarding reserving the spells for what they're good at: That's kind of my point. They can, if they want, use their spells to fill any niche a martial can, and can also fill their own unique niches while a martial is stuck filling the one niche and has no hope of imitating any of the caster's utility

And I'm not expecting D&D to copy 8BT, I'm wondering why martials can't all perform feats like the ones we see fighter and thief doing. Martial characters would feel a lot more competent if they could act like this:

http://v.cdn.nuklearpower.com/comics/8-bit-theater/070104.png

[GiantOctopodes]

The issue is actually the Druid capstone ability. *No one* else, melee or spellcaster, can effectively heal 90+ HP per turn as a bonus action, with no limits on usage. No one else can have a 90+ HP pool exhausted only for it to be revealed as bonus HP, and instead of going unconscious, you start to chip away at their actual HP total, only for the bonus HP to be regained in full as a bonus action without limit.

Eliminate the capstone ability, make it a Druid 19 vs Martial 19, and suddenly it is a *much* more fair challenge.

That being said, the way to beat such an unfair challenge is to not fight fair. Allow me to present my contender in story form.

The assassin awoke well after midday, yet another change in his ever rotating schedule, designed to make it impossible to guess his sleeping hours. He emerged from his self designed shelter, and looked about from a position of careful concealment. The Druid was already flying around again, the whirlwind form of the air elemental circling above the woods like a predatory hawk in search of prey. He noted its position, and kept well hidden. He took some comfort in the fact that the Druid knew neither his name nor his actual appearance, since those which had been revealed to him were merely one of his myriad of disguises, which made tracking him magically nearly impossible. Still, he endeavoured to keep 10 feet of running water between him and his foe at all times as an extra precaution. He took comfort as well in his current disguise as a forager, knowing that the Druid was unlikely to bother him, unlikely to see through the disguise even if he did, and knowing that a forager hiding from an air elemental was totally logical, so being spotted as hidden would not ruin the disguise of that character.

Hours passed, as the Druid continued to circle above. After a time, he descended, searching the ground as an Earth Elemental, same as most days. The Assassin called upon his monastic training to make his passage impossible to detect except through magical means, and carefully limited his movements and his rest periods to avoid detection the rest of the day. Finally, the Druid fled, returning for the necessary 8 hours of sleep. The assassin knew that he was not going to be able to track his movements to whatever shelter he held. Thus it was that for yet another night, he searched for his opponent while he slept, as the Druid had before. Yet in this war of silence, the Assassin held the edge, for though the Druid may be more perceptive than he was by a bit, he was far, far more effective in concealing himself during his sleep, and he knew what his opponent looked like. He also had the advantage of the Druid, as the self proclaimed protector of this area, being unlikely to flee in frustration while he remained, tormenting any he could while outside of the Druid's watchful gaze in order to keep his opponent's interest.

Thus it was that finally, during the dead of night, he came upon the poorly concealed (by his standards) form of the Druid. He called upon his monastic training and moved in, making absolutely no sound. His unconscious foe laid bare, he carefully lined up his strike, then lashed out, striking with both deadly precision and a flurry of activity. The Druid awoke, surprised, but had no time to react, as the barrage of attacks returned him to an unconsciousness from which he would never awaken. Grinning, the assassin taunted, knowing that though his words might make no sound, the Druid could read his lips, and it would be the last words he ever understood. "What's wrong, didn't see this one coming?"

Basically, wait until the Druid is asleep. Being unconscious, his form automatically reverts, so you are dealing damage directly to his HP total. His Dex being terrible, he is extremely unlikely to win Initiative, so a well built Assassin has two rounds of automatic critical hits. The splash of Monk allows for flurry of blows, but more importantly for Passage Without Trace, which combined with the Assassin's incredible stealth totals and Expertise, makes him virtually impossible to detect unless he chooses to reveal himself. Silence is just the icing on the cake, foiling any alarms that might be placed. Locate Creature fails to find him unless the name or description is accurate (good luck), and since the Druid only has 8 hours of coverage by Foresight, and it was already declared that is used during active hunting hours, he is not immune to the surprise while he sleeps.

In short, the best way to fight a Spellcaster who is armed for battle and has prepared a selection of spells specifically for your demise is to *not* do that, but rather to wait for a more favorable situation. Spellcasters can do just about anything, but they don't have the resources to do everything at all times, and all the power in the world while you're awake does nothing against your throat being slit while you sleep.

[silveralen]

Eliminate the capstone ability, make it a Druid 19 vs Martial 19, and suddenly it is a *much* more fair challenge.

Incredibly so. I'm of the opinion the problem comes form people not applying common sense, but it would also be reasonable to say they just didn't try very hard to balance the capstones since they don't expect people to play there much, if at all.

I mean, of the tactics on the first page three of them rely on constant shifting to refresh HP and one heavily benefits from it.

You would think that maybe, just maybe, that might cause someone to go "hmmm, maybe something is happening that wasn't intended". But no, apparently not.

[MunkeeGamer]

Basically, wait until the Druid is asleep.

I wish I had players with as much thought and foresight into problem solving as you. Will you come join my table and show my players how to not hack n slash? :smallbiggrin:

[Nargrakhan]

The issue is actually the Druid capstone ability. *No one* else, melee or spellcaster, can effectively heal 90+ HP per turn as a bonus action, with no limits on usage. No one else can have a 90+ HP pool exhausted only for it to be revealed as bonus HP, and instead of going unconscious, you start to chip away at their actual HP total, only for the bonus HP to be regained in full as a bonus action without limit.

Eliminate the capstone ability, make it a Druid 19 vs Martial 19, and suddenly it is a *much* more fair challenge.

Not arguing with you, as that's certainly the most glaring issue with a Druid, but I was also thinking it's because casters' spells get more attention that martial techniques.

Almost 90 PAGES of the PHB is dedicated to how casters can interact in and out of combat, social interactions, day to day routines, and everything in between. Meanwhile, you can summarize everything a martial can do in less than 10 pages (unless said martial is a partial caster). If the martial classes had 90 pages of attacks, defenses, and utility abilities -- maybe things would be a lot better.

[MaxWilson]

Basically, wait until the Druid is asleep. Being unconscious, his form automatically reverts, so you are dealing damage directly to his HP total. His Dex being terrible, he is extremely unlikely to win Initiative, so a well built Assassin has two rounds of automatic critical hits. The splash of Monk allows for flurry of blows, but more importantly for Passage Without Trace, which combined with the Assassin's incredible stealth totals and Expertise, makes him virtually impossible to detect unless he chooses to reveal himself. Silence is just the icing on the cake, foiling any alarms that might be placed. Locate Creature fails to find him unless the name or description is accurate (good luck), and since the Druid only has 8 hours of coverage by Foresight, and it was already declared that is used during active hunting hours, he is not immune to the surprise while he sleeps.

"Meld Into Stone". I'm also dubious about your ruling that the druid reverts to human form while asleep--Wildshape doesn't even require Concentration, so where did that ruling come from?

I'm fine with your overall approach BTW, and I like your Forester disguise--I just don't think much of your plan to catch him while he is actually asleep, because sleep is planned-for.


Not arguing with you, as that's certainly the most glaring issue with a Druid, but I was also thinking it's because casters' spells get more attention that martial techniques.

Almost 90 PAGES of the PHB is dedicated to how casters can interact in and out of combat, social interactions, day to day routines, and everything in between. Meanwhile, you can summarize everything a martial can do in less than 10 pages (unless said martial is a partial caster). If the martial classes had 90 pages of attacks, defenses, and utility abilities -- maybe things would be a lot better.

+1, insightful.

[GiantOctopodes]

"Meld Into Stone". I'm also dubious about your ruling that the druid reverts to human form while asleep--Wildshape doesn't even require Concentration, so where did that ruling come from?

I'm fine with your overall approach BTW, and I like your Forester disguise--I just don't think much of your plan to catch him while he is actually asleep, because sleep is planned-for.

The ruling comes right from the description of Wild Shape- "You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die". Unless you are arguing that you are not unconscious while you sleep?

In terms of Meld into Stone, I hadn't realized the duration is that long.

[Vogonjeltz]

Then I nominated a fairly common biome. That's not stacking the deck, that wasn't selected to be in the druid's favour, it just happens that druids have an advantage in pretty much every situation over a fighter.

That might be a common biome for non-humans. But for sentient species it is substantially more common to exist in terrain with manufactured components and few to no naturally occurring things. That's where the deck-stacking charge originates from. You're placing this encounter in terrain that specifically favors the Druid. Let's set a more likely venue: The Druid is attempting to penetrate a heavily fortified defensive position. Castle Screwyounature.

This castle is made entirely from worked stone, sunk deep into the ground (so deep in fact that it reaches the natural bedrock). All surfaces are covered by an intensely durable composite, fibreglass. The floors are completely vibration absorbant.

This combination disallows Passwall, Tremorsense, and Earthglide.

Rooms are all exactly 10 feet tall. (Disallows flight) and zig-zagging corridors are only 5 feet in spacing (disallows any creature bigger than medium size).

Worst of all, the entire facility is under the effects of a terrible antimagic curse. Anytime a character attempts to use any kind of magic, instead roll on the Wild Magic Surge table (104). This may result in the loss of actions as any magical effect is replaced by whatever happens on the table. If an effect is, for whatever reason, impossible, nothing happens.

That's fair right? I just picked something randomly off the top of my head.


People are complaining because it's a challenge with a definite "political" slant; Druids are better than martials, another brick in the "casters rule, martials drool" wall of criticism that has been leveled against 5e before the system was even finished. Eslin didn't appear out of the blue, issuing a challenge from on high, he's been around the subforum for months and certainly seems to hold the opinion that 5e is a "caster edition."

Naturally, every time this argument comes up, no matter the particulars of the given caster or given martial, the evidence marshaled in favor of caster supremacy takes the form of these 1v1 duels, or other "white room" set-ups that assume the caster is perfectly optimized and always has the right spells prepared. You'll notice that none of these arguments are really based in at-the-table play; the only time "real" evidence has shown up is the contention that Moon Druids are unreasonably powerful before level 5, which is a pretty reasonable complaint that will probably get addressed in errata someday.

Otherwise, we're just having an empty theory argument that has absolutely nothing to do with the system's actual balance in actual expected play.

And here I thought it was just holdover 3.5 forum bias.


--Self proclaimed emperor god-king Rygar, the lvl 20 <Martial class>, is looking to annex the druid's land for resources. Given that he's a cocky bastard, he sends the druid a message that he's coming for her precious grove. Lynwe, the lvl 20 druid, was willing to maintain peace but won't take a threat like this lightly. Rygar must be shown the fury of nature disrespected. She will make an example of Rygar by embarassing him or killing, if she must. <OP's scenario then begins to unfold>

How is the Druid going to stop the King from burning her grove down? Inquiring minds want to know.


IMHO an intelligent martial would NEVER enter combat in the scenario you've outlined. If this is a level 20 martial knowingly facing a level 20 caster, he'd put every resource he has into rigging a battlefield in which the odds were predominantly in his favor. Good 'ole Art of War stuff. A battle is won BEFORE it's fought... not just dragging yourself into it and making plans on the fly when you get there.

He WOULDN'T face a Druid in the open wilderness. He WOULDN'T face a Druid with full spell slots. He WOULDN'T face a Druid without overlapping antimagic fields and inescapable confines. Otherwise it's like we have a stupid fighter signing his own suicide note. A martial doesn't have a resource of spells at his disposal and KNOWS it... therefore his entire strategy would be to DENY his caster any casting ability -- direct or indirect -- because that would be the martial's strength.

What you've outlined is a martial having the strategic experience of someone who should have never made it to level 2, let alone level 20... and the caster having the tactical wisdom of Sun Tsu and Clausewitz combined.

First, Clausewitz's theories, although useful as a spur to thinking about things yourself, are overrated.

Second, I totally agree. The level 20 Fighter is the Batman of D&D. He doesn't have anything but his brains, brawn, and magical item utility belt. There is simply no way that he goes into a situation deliberately without the win pre-planned from every angle.


Which is a win for the druid, if all the non-caster say "Nah man, I don't even need this job" to the king/queen who wants to annex the druid's territory.

That's a single fighter. Presumably, if the Druid is the encounter, we're talking 4 level 20 PCs. As long as just one of those can cast dispel magic (an Eldritch Knight, for example), the Druid dies. Actually, an Eldritch Knight Fighter could solo the Druid by using just that tactic. Cast dispel magic, get his bonus attack, action surge for 4 more attacks. For one of his non-evocation/abjuration spells he could pick up Magic Weapon. If he has mage slayer, sentinel, and War Caster...well, that looks like it would work.

[Nargrakhan]

First, Clausewitz's theories, although useful as a spur to thinking about things yourself, are overrated.

Not to take this thread off topic, but I have to disagree. Clausewitz's theories are a foundation of modern Western politics in warfare. Indeed many modern navies use an evolved and oddly combined form of Mahan and Clausewitz for their justification of force projection practices.

Not claiming that the mixture of politics and warfare is highly effective in all situations -- of they aren't. Also the chapters on center of gravity and fog of war are highly relevant today... especially with the advent of things such as cyber warfare. If I had to make a tl;dr of On War, it would be: technology, moral, and discipline wins a war. More than a few modern armed forces are built around that concept, with the only flaw being a lack to commit toward "total war" against an enemy who isn't an equal in those areas. That's also a point Clausewitz mentions as a weakness... so those same armies are basically not heeding what he said

Of course then again, nukes didn't exist in Clausewitz's days.

But I don't think of them as overrated, anymore than I feel people give Sun Tsu too much favoritism on the battlefield... many a war has been fought, where Sun Tsu's strategies aren't as effective or get turn on their head because it's not a scenario or tradition of warfare known in that time frame.

Both strategists, taken in moderation and with consideration of changes to warfare, are equally valid. Especially when further combined and refined with other great minds like Suvorov, Miyamoto, Machiavelli, Thucydides... so forth and so on.

[MadBear]

Not to take this thread off topic, but I have to disagree. Clausewitz's theories are a foundation of modern Western politics in warfare. Indeed many modern navies use an evolved and oddly combined form of Mahan and Clausewitz for their justification of force projection practices.

Not claiming that the mixture of politics and warfare is highly effective in all situations -- of they aren't. Also the chapters on center of gravity and fog of war are highly relevant today... especially with the advent of things such as cyber warfare. If I had to make a tl;dr of On War, it would be: technology, moral, and discipline wins a war. More than a few modern armed forces are built around that concept, with the only flaw being a lack to commit toward "total war" against an enemy who isn't an equal in those areas. That's also a point Clausewitz mentions as a weakness... so those same armies are basically not heeding what he said

Of course then again, nukes didn't exist in Clausewitz's days.

But I don't think of them as overrated, anymore than I feel people give Sun Tsu too much favoritism on the battlefield... many a war has been fought, where Sun Tsu's strategies aren't as effective or get turn on their head because it's not a scenario or tradition of warfare known in that time frame.

Both strategists, taken in moderation and with consideration of changes to warfare, are equally valid. Especially when further combined and refined with other great minds like Suvorov, Miyamoto, Machiavelli, Thucydides... so forth and so on.

Look at you flexing your knowlege of war muscles. You've now given me a ton of homework as I now want to read up on the authors you've mentioned. :)

[Vogonjeltz]

Not to take this thread off topic, but I have to disagree. Clausewitz's theories are a foundation of modern Western politics in warfare. Indeed many modern navies use an evolved and oddly combined form of Mahan and Clausewitz for their justification of force projection practices.

Not claiming that the mixture of politics and warfare is highly effective in all situations -- of they aren't. Also the chapters on center of gravity and fog of war are highly relevant today... especially with the advent of things such as cyber warfare. If I had to make a tl;dr of On War, it would be: technology, moral, and discipline wins a war. More than a few modern armed forces are built around that concept, with the only flaw being a lack to commit toward "total war" against an enemy who isn't an equal in those areas. That's also a point Clausewitz mentions as a weakness... so those same armies are basically not heeding what he said

Of course then again, nukes didn't exist in Clausewitz's days.

But I don't think of them as overrated, anymore than I feel people give Sun Tsu too much favoritism on the battlefield... many a war has been fought, where Sun Tsu's strategies aren't as effective or get turn on their head because it's not a scenario or tradition of warfare known in that time frame.

Both strategists, taken in moderation and with consideration of changes to warfare, are equally valid. Especially when further combined and refined with other great minds like Suvorov, Miyamoto, Machiavelli, Thucydides... so forth and so on.

I'm not debating that Clausewitz was important by virtue of authoring a fairly comprehensive work on strategy.

What I am debating is how valuable some of his actual advice was, and several of his ideas are just wrongheaded. In particular I was thinking of his barely 1 page dismissal of the use of intelligence in war.

His advice can be stated as: "hey just have good instincts and everything will turn out ok!"

Really???! The most critical element of any non-blundering win, and he have barely a page of a shoulder shrug.

Please note this criticism does not include the overriding themes he intended (advancement of policy by other means, in particular). I'm fine with that, it's more of the details (when they aren't rooted in the means of his times) where things break down.

[MaxWilson]

The ruling comes right from the description of Wild Shape- "You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die". Unless you are arguing that you are not unconscious while you sleep?

In terms of Meld into Stone, I hadn't realized the duration is that long.

Okay, you've persuaded me on the Wild Shape issue. That seems fairly unambiguous.


Second, I totally agree. The level 20 Fighter is the Batman of D&D. He doesn't have anything but his brains, brawn, and magical item utility belt. There is simply no way that he goes into a situation deliberately without the win pre-planned from every angle.

Well, sometimes he goes in without the win pre-planned, but if so he is cursing himself for an idiot under his breath the whole time. "Stupid princesses... why am I... too old for this stuff... lack of preparation... grumble grumble... probably gonna die... for no good reason..." But in he goes anyway, because if he doesn't, people are going to die.

Same thing applies to a druid going into battle without Foresight BTW. "Grumble grumble... underprepared... bad timing... probably gonna die..."

[BranMan]

Mentioned this earlier in the thread, but didn't get a reply-

Would it work to use modify memory on the druid to remove all memory of elementals and animals from their mind? no more wildshape! If cast as a 9th level spell, modify memory can effect any memory in their entire past.

This would require the druid being able to be charmed, and it would get a will save with advantage if in combat.

[MaxWilson]

Would it work to use modify memory on the druid to remove all memory of elementals and animals from their mind? no more wildshape! If cast as a 9th level spell, modify memory can effect any memory in their entire past.

I'm AFB so I can't read the description for Modify Memory, but yes, that would appear to work. By strict RAW it wouldn't prevent them from wild-shaping into an elemental, but I'd let it do so because I would treat elemental forms similarly to beast forms (for this and other purposes).

[Nargrakhan]

I'm not debating that Clausewitz was important by virtue of authoring a fairly comprehensive work on strategy.

What I am debating is how valuable some of his actual advice was, and several of his ideas are just wrongheaded. In particular I was thinking of his barely 1 page dismissal of the use of intelligence in war.

Understood and totally reasonable. No strategist in of himself is perfect... or didn't have a tactical bias that's a major flaw.

The vaunted Sun Tzu was a major supporter of rigid command structure and silent on the notion of "battlefield autonomy" at the lowest level. Sun Tzu is all about the General -- with a well defined, suitably researched, and perfectly executed strategy -- being the ultimate linchpin to victory. The soldiers obey without hesitation or question, for the General must be flawless and be followed flawlessly. Yet warfare is rife with examples of moments where tactical decisions have to be made at even a squad or platoon level, which circumvent strategic orders, but will lead to victory. This is best described by strategists like Suvorov (who's theory of warfare can be summarized as: attack, attack, attack, keep attacking, and then attack some more, but don't forget to attack) espousing that good soldiers can makeup for a poor General and seize victory.

Sun Tzu has a problem with that... but that doesn't make him wrong about everything...

Ironically though, it's because Clausewitz had such strong contempt for gathered intelligence, that his theories on the "fog of war" are so awesome. Just how Sun Tzu's contempt of soldier autonomy are why his ideas of sowing confusion, enabling deception, and disrupting communication are so awesome. And yet if you have great intelligence gathering, there is no fog of war... and if your soldiers have effective authoritative leadership at the lowest possible levels, there isn't crippling confusion from deception or disrupted communications. It's a battlefield paradox! :smallwink:

[Giant2005]

And this is the core of the problem as to why people think this question is rigged against the non-caster... It isn't that the question is rigged but the base rules are rigged before the question is asked.

Like playing cards against someone who is cheating, you lost the moment you sat down and played not when after the cards are dealt. I think there was a Haley scene about this.

What's sad is that 5e could have been the game, and has a good core rules (bounded accuracy, advantage system, prof system) where awesome non casters could have been made easily.

But there was a conscious choice to not do that. Even at high levels.

It isn't 5e's fault, it is the scenario designer's fault.
The scenario is only giving the Fighter some of the tools of the trade where-as the game is designed around the complete package. If the Fighter had access to the full arsenal of magic weapons that would be expected of a level 20 character, that Druid wouldn't stand a chance.

[Eslin]

It isn't 5e's fault, it is the scenario designer's fault.
The scenario is only giving the Fighter some of the tools of the trade where-as the game is designed around the complete package. If the Fighter had access to the full arsenal of magic weapons that would be expected of a level 20 character, that Druid wouldn't stand a chance.

Why not? Presumably the druid would get his own arsenal of magic items (which we can't do yet because we don't know what they are), and has been made obvious many times before the designers aren't stupid enough to design a class to be more useful with magic items than another class is (since that means one class is either underpowered without magic items or overpowered with them, both bad game design when magic items are supposed to be optional). The fighter having magic items should benefit him no more than magic items would benefit the druid.

[silveralen]

Why not? Presumably the druid would get his own arsenal of magic items (which we can't do yet because we don't know what they are), and has been made obvious many times before the designers aren't stupid enough to design a class to be more useful with magic items than another class is (since that means one class is either underpowered without magic items or overpowered with them, both bad game design when magic items are supposed to be optional). The fighter having magic items should benefit him no more than magic items would benefit the druid.

That's an interesting assumption. Also not one with any basis in fact I can see. A druid might have magic items that benefit him, but it could very well be in the form of staffs that can't be used while shifted or something similar.

After all, for the gap to close the fighter doesn't need more magic items that benefit him than benefit druid, he needs more magic items that benefit him than a druid who stays shifted all the time. That alone changes the dynamic, either forcing a druid to play to other strengths, or evening the playing field in this dynamic.

[Eslin]

That might be a common biome for non-humans. But for sentient species it is substantially more common to exist in terrain with manufactured components and few to no naturally occurring things. That's where the deck-stacking charge originates from. You're placing this encounter in terrain that specifically favors the Druid. Let's set a more likely venue: The Druid is attempting to penetrate a heavily fortified defensive position. Castle Screwyounature.

This castle is made entirely from worked stone, sunk deep into the ground (so deep in fact that it reaches the natural bedrock). All surfaces are covered by an intensely durable composite, fibreglass. The floors are completely vibration absorbant.

This combination disallows Passwall, Tremorsense, and Earthglide.

Rooms are all exactly 10 feet tall. (Disallows flight) and zig-zagging corridors are only 5 feet in spacing (disallows any creature bigger than medium size).

Worst of all, the entire facility is under the effects of a terrible antimagic curse. Anytime a character attempts to use any kind of magic, instead roll on the Wild Magic Surge table (104). This may result in the loss of actions as any magical effect is replaced by whatever happens on the table. If an effect is, for whatever reason, impossible, nothing happens.

That's fair right? I just picked something randomly off the top of my head.
I picked an incredibly common scenario, you picked an insanely unlikely castle designed to screw over a caster. How is a castle covered with fibreglass, an antimagic curse, impossibly deep rock and (somehow?) vibration absorbant walls a more likely venue than a random part of the countryside?

But in any case, the druid can still deal with it. Stay outside the castle, hide somewhere (not hard to do when you have shapeshifting and spells that let you move earth and shape stone), cast control weather, set temperature to arctic cold. Laugh as everyone in the castle freezes to death.


First, Clausewitz's theories, although useful as a spur to thinking about things yourself, are overrated.

Second, I totally agree. The level 20 Fighter is the Batman of D&D. He doesn't have anything but his brains, brawn, and magical item utility belt. There is simply no way that he goes into a situation deliberately without the win pre-planned from every angle
The fighter is not batman. Batman has brains, a non eldritch knight has no reason to want intelligence since it affects nothing any more.


That's an interesting assumption. Also not one with any basis in fact I can see. A druid might have magic items that benefit him, but it could very well be in the form of staffs that can't be used while shifted or something similar.

After all, for the gap to close the fighter doesn't need more magic items that benefit him than benefit druid, he needs more magic items that benefit him than a druid who stays shifted all the time. That alone changes the dynamic, either forcing a druid to play to other strengths, or evening the playing field in this dynamic.
It's an assumption based on the last two editions - they realised the wild shape magical item loss thing was stupid and added wilding clasps in 3.5, and in 4th they just removed having to worry about wild shaping and items at all. This edition they explicitly let you keep your magic items while wildshaping. They're not going to be stupid enough to have druids not have items that work for them wildshaping, it's what a druid's known for. It'd be like not having magic weapon/armour equivalents for the monk - they know the monk's going to be unarmed and unarmoured, they learned over the last two editions that he needs magic items as much as anyone else, they'll have stuff he can use.

They're not going to be stupid enough to have magic items that play to the strengths of some classes and have other classes forced away from their strengths. That would be unbalanced and kind of idiotic.

[Giant2005]

Why not? Presumably the druid would get his own arsenal of magic items (which we can't do yet because we don't know what they are), and has been made obvious many times before the designers aren't stupid enough to design a class to be more useful with magic items than another class is (since that means one class is either underpowered without magic items or overpowered with them, both bad game design when magic items are supposed to be optional). The fighter having magic items should benefit him no more than magic items would benefit the druid.

Ugh this has been covered before.
The sort of balance you are describing is impossible - if the probably non-existent spell-enhancing Druid weapons are comparable in use to what a Fighter gets with 4 attacks and 4x proc damage, then that same Druid's magical items would be considered twice as powerful compared to the other Martial classes and their 2 attacks. So if those probably non-existent spell-enhancing Druid Weapons are balanced against anything, it wouldn't be the outlier of the Fighter which is designed to get better use of proc damage, it would be against the standardized 2 or 1 attack per round. Why should Druids stand up there with the outlier when the rest of the martial classes don't? What you are describing isn't Druids being balanced with Fighters, it is every other class being under-powered compared to Druids and Fighters.
But either way I'm done with this, you have stuck your fingers in your ears and ignored such statements in the past. It would be insane of me to believe you have the capacity to listen at this point.

[Eslin]

Ugh this has been covered before.
The sort of balance you are describing is impossible - if the probably non-existent spell-enhancing Druid weapons are comparable in use to what a Fighter gets with 4 attacks and 4x proc damage, then that same Druid's magical items would be considered twice as powerful compared to the other Martial classes and their 2 attacks. So if those probably non-existent spell-enhancing Druid Weapons are balanced against anything, it wouldn't be the outlier of the Fighter which is designed to get better use of proc damage, it would be against the standardized 2 or 1 attack per round. Why should Druids stand up there with the outlier when the rest of the martial classes don't? What you are describing isn't Druids being balanced with Fighters, it is every other class being under-powered compared to Druids and Fighters.
But either way I'm done with this, you have stuck your fingers in your ears and ignored such statements in the past. It would be insane of me to believe you have the capacity to listen at this point.

Yes, this has been discussed before. I am getting quite annoyed actually, since I stated quite clearly that equality does not have to mean being the same. A fighter gets more benefit from many magical weapons than probably any other class would, they're the ideal magic sword wielder. That's fine, I like how that works out, and a druid gaining the same amount of benefit from magic items DOES NOT MEAN HE HAS TO GAIN THAT EXACT BENEFIT. If all classes gained benefits in the exact same way why bother having classes at all? I said it in the other thread and I don't know how you didn't comprehend it then, overall benefit from magic weapons does not equal overall benefit from magic items. We haven't seen most magic items yet, we don't know what form they'll take, but it is reasonable to assume that a druid will benefit just as much as a fighter will from his choice of magic items, just as it's reasonable to assume a monk would.

Once more, since apparently this needs repetition: A fighter getting more use out a magic sword does not mean a fighter gains more use out of magic items any more than a thief getting more use out of wands means a thief gains more use out of magic items.

Edit: Edited to remove insults. Just because you stooped to that level doesn't mean I have to.

[Giant2005]

Yes, this has been discussed before. I am getting quite annoyed actually, since I stated quite clearly that equality does not have to mean being the same. A fighter gets more benefit from many magical weapons than probably any other class would, they're the ideal magic sword wielder. That's fine, I like how that works out, and a druid gaining the same amount of benefit from magic items DOES NOT MEAN HE HAS TO GAIN THAT EXACT BENEFIT. If all classes gained benefits in the exact same way why bother having classes at all? I said it in the other thread and I don't know how you didn't comprehend it then, overall benefit from magic weapons does not equal overall benefit from magic items. We haven't seen most magic items yet, we don't know what form they'll take, but it is reasonable to assume that a druid will benefit just as much as a fighter will from his choice of magic items, just as it's reasonable to assume a monk would.

Once more, since apparently this needs repetition: A fighter getting more use out a magic sword does not mean a fighter gains more use out of magic items any more than a thief getting more use out of wands means a thief gains more use out of magic items.

Edit: Edited to remove insults. Just because you stooped to that level doesn't mean I have to.

Fair enough and that balancing mechanic is already in the game via attunement - that sword that the Fighter is attuned to is taking up a slot that the Druid doesn't have to be concerned with which will give the Druid one extra attunement slot for defensive capabilities.
Having said that, you are challenging people to deal 120+ HP per turn and then telling them that they can't use their most damage-enhancing weapons to do it. Surely you can see the folly in that? You said it yourself, a Fighter gets the most damage-enhancement from magic weapons and yet you have chosen to deny him his prime advantage, that same advantage which is most necessary in the situation you have described.

[Eslin]

Fair enough and that balancing mechanic is already in the game via attunement - that sword that the Fighter is attuned to is taking up a slot that the Druid doesn't have to be concerned with which will give the Druid one extra attunement slot for defensive capabilities.
Having said that, you are challenging people to deal 120+ HP per turn and then telling them that they can't use their most damage-enhancing weapons to do it. Surely you can see the folly in that? You said it yourself, a Fighter gets the most damage-enhancement from magic weapons and yet you have chosen to deny him his prime advantage, that same advantage which is most necessary in the situation you have described.

Which is why I wasn't really expecting people to use fighters, we have an entire thread for that. Considering the utility needed I figured the winner would probably be a monk or a rogue, and it turned out to be a rogue.

I denied the fighter that advantage because I couldn't give anyone else the advantage they deserved, with incomplete evidence the fighter gains more from the magic items we know about than any other classes.

[Giant2005]

Which is why I wasn't really expecting people to use fighters, we have an entire thread for that. Considering the utility needed I figured the winner would probably be a monk or a rogue, and it turned out to be a rogue.

I denied the fighter that advantage because I couldn't give anyone else the advantage they deserved, with incomplete evidence the fighter gains more from the magic items we know about than any other classes.

The irony is that the Druid is probably the only class that can contest the Fighter's superiority with Magic Items.

[Eslin]

The irony is that the Druid is probably the only class that can contest the Fighter's superiority with Magic Items.

Nah, just be an abjuration wizard and fly around dispelling all the items.

[Giant2005]

Nah, just be an abjuration wizard and fly around dispelling all the items.

How does an Abjuration Wizard dispel magic items?

[Eslin]

How does an Abjuration Wizard dispel magic items?
Not sure if they can, but the spell mentions objects and the only way to create magic items that we know of as yet (true polymorphing living creatures into items) is vulnerable to dispelling, so I live in hope.

And again, the fighter isn't superior with magic items, just the best with magic weapons (sort of, monks/bards/rangers all get 4 attacks a turn too), just as the thief is the best with activatable magic items. Different classes benefit in different ways, that doesn't mean the fighter gets a greater overall benefit from magic items.

[silveralen]

It's an assumption based on the last two editions - they realised the wild shape magical item loss thing was stupid and added wilding clasps in 3.5, and in 4th they just removed having to worry about wild shaping and items at all. This edition they explicitly let you keep your magic items while wildshaping. They're not going to be stupid enough to have druids not have items that work for them wildshaping, it's what a druid's known for. It'd be like not having magic weapon/armour equivalents for the monk - they know the monk's going to be unarmed and unarmoured, they learned over the last two editions that he needs magic items as much as anyone else, they'll have stuff he can use.

They're not going to be stupid enough to have magic items that play to the strengths of some classes and have other classes forced away from their strengths. That would be unbalanced and kind of idiotic.

This edition they explicitly let you keep whatever magic items your DM feels are appropriate, given that these items don't change in size or shape when Druid shifts. So... Not a lot if you plan on being a large creature.

Who says what Druid's strength is? I mean, the scenario's most people discuss just involved his capstone. I hardly think it's fair to say magic items which don't mesh well with constantly staying shifted, an ability Druid gets for maybe 1% of the total play time, is forcing him from his strength's. Druid's strength is being a jack of all trades, fitting into a variety of situations.

[Eslin]

This edition they explicitly let you keep whatever magic items your DM feels are appropriate.

Who says what Druid's strength is? I mean, the scenario's most people discuss just involved his capstone. I hardly think it's fair to say magic items which don't mesh well with constantly staying shifted, an ability Druid gets for maybe 1% of the total play time, is forcing him from his strength's. Druid's strength is being a jack of all trades, fitting into a variety of situations.
Druids do not spend 1% of their play time shifted. I've DMed two moon druids so far and they both played the class for the wild shape aspect and rarely left animal forms during combat.

Treating wild shape as if it's just an ability and shouldn't have items based around it is silly - sure, some druids use it rarely, but a lot of players like the idea of wild shape and play a druid specifically so they can.

[Vogonjeltz]

I picked an incredibly common scenario, you picked an insanely unlikely castle designed to screw over a caster. How is a castle covered with fibreglass, an antimagic curse, impossibly deep rock and (somehow?) vibration absorbant walls a more likely venue than a random part of the countryside?

But in any case, the druid can still deal with it. Stay outside the castle, hide somewhere (not hard to do when you have shapeshifting and spells that let you move earth and shape stone), cast control weather, set temperature to arctic cold. Laugh as everyone in the castle freezes to death.

Not to worry, this is already taking place in the cold north, everyone has warm clothing and the buildings are all incredibly well insulated against cold and lightning strikes.


The fighter is not batman. Batman has brains, a non eldritch knight has no reason to want intelligence since it affects nothing any more.

Of course he's batman. They are both skilled martial artists with penchants for the dramatic and no supernatural skills to speak of. On average there may be many stupid or average intelligence Fighters, but they aren't the ones who survive to 20th level. As you said, only the insanely prepared at all times characters make it that far.

Actually, figuring out the likelihood that a given character survives does bring up the question of how Druids who have no physical abilities survived the 19 levels before they could always be something that has survival capabilities.

[Eslin]

Not to worry, this is already taking place in the cold north, everyone has warm clothing and the buildings are all incredibly well insulated against cold and lightning strikes.They better be bloody well insulted, I just googled arctic cold and you're looking at -40 to -50 C.


Of course he's batman. They are both skilled martial artists with penchants for the dramatic and no supernatural skills to speak of. On average there may be many stupid or average intelligence Fighters, but they aren't the ones who survive to 20th level. As you said, only the insanely prepared at all times characters make it that far.

Actually, figuring out the likelihood that a given character survives does bring up the question of how Druids who have no physical abilities survived the 19 levels before they could always be something that has survival capabilities.
The druid has survival capabilities. The druid only needs wisdom and constitution, so it starts off no worse than anyone else and becomes far tougher to kill than anyone else starting at level 2. Even before then, the druid's no less defenseless than a wizard (except that the druid has more hp). Having low strength and dexterity does not equal inability to survive, especially when you can turn into animals to replace those stats.

And yes, I said that in general surviving requires preparation, planning, risk assessment etc - but please keep in mind that now that int doesn't affect skill points and the fighter won't be taking any intelligence based skills, mechanically the only reason to have any intelligence is for (incredibly rare) int saves. The fighter being anywhere near as smart as batman is deeply sub-optimal for the fighter, if you wanted intelligence to actually work for you be a caster or ask your DM to port the warblade over.

[silveralen]

Druids do not spend 1% of their play time shifted. I've DMed two moon druids so far and they both played the class for the wild shape aspect and rarely left animal forms during combat.

Treating wild shape as if it's just an ability and shouldn't have items based around it is silly - sure, some druids use it rarely, but a lot of players like the idea of wild shape and play a druid specifically so they can.

Druid isn't built for that currently. It is a caster hybrid. A character who never shifts out... shouldn't be as effective as others honestly, because they aren't utilizing all of their abilities. If a druid who stays shifted all the time can pull their weight as well a martial character, it will invariably cause a balance issue because someone who plays the character intelligently and as it was meant o be played will dramatically out perform both the constantly shifted druid and the other characters.

If someone chooses to play the character that way, it is fine, but they shouldn't expect to keep up with other classes considering they are practically ignoring half their abilities.

[Eslin]

Druid isn't built for that currently. It is a caster hybrid. A character who never shifts out... shouldn't be as effective as others honestly, because they aren't utilizing all of their abilities. If a druid who stays shifted all the time can pull their weight as well a martial character, it will invariably cause a balance issue because someone who plays the character intelligently and as it was meant o be played will dramatically out perform both the constantly shifted druid and the other characters.

If someone chooses to play the character that way, it is fine, but they shouldn't expect to keep up with other classes considering they are practically ignoring half their abilities.
They aren't. One adopted their style of play from the other, but roughly it goes like this - cast spells before the fight starts where possible, beast shape to take hits, whenever they manage to become sole focus burn spells to heal themselves while they take damage. Both only really left animal form in combat when they weren't being targeted at all or when one spell would make a large difference, instead spending their slots on wildshape healing, out of combat utility and party bandaiding to take the pressure off the other casters.

Druids shifted all the time can pull their weight as well as martial characters, there are ways to get good uses out of your spell slots other than being in caster form in combat.

[silveralen]

They aren't. One adopted their style of play from the other, but roughly it goes like this - cast spells before the fight starts where possible, beast shape to take hits, whenever they manage to become sole focus burn spells to heal themselves while they take damage. Both only really left animal form in combat when they weren't being targeted at all or when one spell would make a large difference, instead spending their slots on wildshape healing, out of combat utility and party bandaiding to take the pressure off the other casters.

Druids shifted all the time can pull their weight as well as martial characters, there are ways to get good uses out of your spell slots other than being in caster form in combat.

So having a staff could benefit such a character, as they could shift out if he situation warranted it. They could also use it to add to their out of combat ability.

It's pretty clear Druids aren't meant to use magic items in wildshape (though, given your previous rulings I suspect you'll completely ignore everything that could prevent it) so it will need to be something of that nature.

[Eslin]

It's pretty clear Druids aren't meant to use magic items in wildshape
Counterpoint:
Last edition, the edition before that, 'you choose whether the equipment is worn by your new form', and while you'd think the equipment not changing size or shape aspect would get in the way of that, one of the lovely benefits of, say, magical armour is that it specifically 'magically resizes to fit its wearer'. They realised druids not having gear in wildshape was stupid, fixed it then carried that fix over to the next edition, they're not going to suddenly go back and deliberately screw it up any more than they'll return monks to being unable to do anything.

Why on earth would they not meant to use magic items in wild shape? For moon druids wild shape is their main way of fighting, of course you'd want magic items.

[Giant2005]

Counterpoint:
Last edition, the edition before that, 'you choose whether the equipment is worn by your new form', and while you'd think the equipment not changing size or shape aspect would get in the way of that, one of the lovely benefits of, say, magical armour is that it specifically 'magically resizes to fit its wearer'. They realised druids not having gear in wildshape was stupid, fixed it then carried that fix over to the next edition, they're not going to suddenly go back and deliberately screw it up any more than they'll return monks to being unable to do anything.

Why on earth would they not meant to use magic items in wild shape? For moon druids wild shape is their main way of fighting, of course you'd want magic items.

Magic Armor still reshapes to fit the wearer.

[silveralen]

Counterpoint:
Last edition, the edition before that, 'you choose whether the equipment is worn by your new form', and while you'd think the equipment not changing size or shape aspect would get in the way of that, one of the lovely benefits of, say, magical armour is that it specifically 'magically resizes to fit its wearer'. They realised druids not having gear in wildshape was stupid, fixed it then carried that fix over to the next edition, they're not going to suddenly go back and deliberately screw it up any more than they'll return monks to being unable to do anything.

Why on earth would they not meant to use magic items in wild shape? For moon druids wild shape is their main way of fighting, of course you'd want magic items.

Magic armor normally reshapes to fit the wearer, but wildshape specifically says none of the equipment does. That's going to be up to DM interpretation at least.

Because moon Druids are deliberately hobbled compared to other fighting classes to prevent the exact sort of issue this thread initially discussed. The whole reason you made it was to talk about how unfair this edition is to martial classes, correct? The same thing you have complained about elsewhere. Yet literally every reading and ruling you have creates a tier issue because you seem to want there to be one. Moon Druids are going to be an issue at your table I can tell, mainly because you seem to be the sort who can't function if there is the slightest bit of ambiguity. You interpret every single bit of ambiguity in the Druid's favor. It's weird to say the least.

[GiantOctopodes]

I've gotta go with Eslin on this one, I fully expect that they will indeed make magic items specifically for use with Wild Shape. I could go into all sorts of Game Design decisions why that would be the case, but time is short, and it's all hypothetical anyways at this point, so I will instead simply say "we'll know soon enough".

However, just so everyone is clear on the actual rules regarding magic items and wild shape generally, as that we do have available:
"You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it. Worn equipment functions as normal, but the DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature’s shape and size. Your equipment doesn’t change size or shape to match the new form, and any equipment that the new form can’t wear must either fall to the ground or merge with it. Equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form."

So this is actually a step back in terms of ability to use Magic Items generically vs previous editions. A Halfling Druid that wildshapes into a Gorilla can no longer use a Magic Breastplate while doing so, as the item explicitly does not resize. So, barring magic items made exclusively for wildshaping, it's safe to say that short of cloaks or capes, necklaces, maybe earrings, that sort of thing, there is little a Druid will be able to use while wildshaped *unless* it is specifically made for that purpose, or you have a generous DM.

[archaeo]

Moon Druids are going to be an issue at your table I can tell, mainly because you seem to be the sort who can't function if there is the slightest bit of ambiguity. You interpret every single bit of ambiguity in the Druid's favor. It's weird to say the least.

I don't think Eslin will have any problems at his table, since he has consistently described a group of players interested in messing with the weird rules loopholes and RAW metagames. It's a valid paradigm of play -- one could argue that WotC's fortunes are built on it via M:TG -- though it does tend to result in sharply limiting the possibilities given that keeping up at Eslin's table probably means selecting some highly optimized builds given the use of these tactics.

Thus, his level 20 Moon Druid won't be outshining the rest of the party. The Fighter will be a werebear, the Wizard will be hiding behind an army of simulacra/skeletons in a magic jar/clone'd body, and anybody else will presumably be polymorphed into a gold dragon. Nobody's getting outshone here, since 5e gives pretty much every character a way to be totally broken right now if you throw out any possible mitigating RAI.

It's a totally valid way to play! But claiming that it was the designer's intent is farfetched in each case.


...So, barring magic items made exclusively for wildshaping, it's safe to say that short of cloaks or capes, necklaces, maybe earrings, that sort of thing, there is little a Druid will be able to use while wildshaped *unless* it is specifically made for that purpose, or you have a generous DM.

I think the only thing it's "safe" to say is that Druids will have to cajole each individual DM into allowing pieces of magical equipment. This kind of flexibility is a bug or a feature depending on how you want to look at it.

[Giant2005]

I've gotta go with Eslin on this one, I fully expect that they will indeed make magic items specifically for use with Wild Shape. I could go into all sorts of Game Design decisions why that would be the case, but time is short, and it's all hypothetical anyways at this point, so I will instead simply say "we'll know soon enough".
We already have plenty of stuff for Wildshapers. We have magic armor, bracers of defense, trinkets, and the Insignia of Claws which increases attack and damage rolls with natural weapons. I don't know what else we could really expect to help out a Wildshaper, everything is pretty much covered already.


However, just so everyone is clear on the actual rules regarding magic items and wild shape generally, as that we do have available:
"You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it. Worn equipment functions as normal, but the DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature’s shape and size. Your equipment doesn’t change size or shape to match the new form, and any equipment that the new form can’t wear must either fall to the ground or merge with it. Equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form."

So this is actually a step back in terms of ability to use Magic Items generically vs previous editions. A Halfling Druid that wildshapes into a Gorilla can no longer use a Magic Breastplate while doing so, as the item explicitly does not resize. So, barring magic items made exclusively for wildshaping, it's safe to say that short of cloaks or capes, necklaces, maybe earrings, that sort of thing, there is little a Druid will be able to use while wildshaped *unless* it is specifically made for that purpose, or you have a generous DM.

I don't think I'd rule that way in my game. Generally equipment doesn't change shape to match the new form but specifically magic armor does change its shape to meet the form of the wearer.

[archaeo]

I don't think I'd rule that way in my game. Generally equipment doesn't change shape to match the new form but specifically magic armor does change its shape to meet the form of the wearer.

I'd argue that magic armor typically expects a broadly humanoid shape and does not function for any size above medium thus far. But that's mostly because giving Druids big AC bonuses on top of their already ridiculous HP, even with the most "conservative" reading of the rules, is just asking for trouble. One of the big ways Druids stay "balanced" is due to the fact that they can rarely get big AC, and negating that would be problematic.

However, the rules are written such that the DM gets huge latitude in deciding which items to allow, so go nuts, really.

[Gwendol]

Magic Armor still reshapes to fit the wearer.

The question is if that holds when the wearer changes shape. Besides, it says resizes, not reshapes, which severly limits the application.

[Daishain]

The question is if that holds when the wearer changes shape. Besides, it says resizes, not reshapes, which severly limits the application.
That depends on how limited the scaling system is.

A suit of armor that linearly scales all dimensions up and down to fit the wearer would only be wearable by perhaps 50% of the humanoids interested in trying it on, and only perhaps 10% would have a proper fit suitable for actually taking it into battle. (unless it primarily consists of chainmail, which isn't as stringent)

Almost by definition, magic armor must change its proportions, not just size.

Once you accept this though, it doesn't really take much in the way of shifting proportions to make a breastplate wearable by a bear, or even a bird. So, how does one define the limits in such a way that only humanoid forms can take advantage of the feature?

[Giant2005]

I posted the following Paladin in the Nova thread which does more than enough damage in a round to take care of the Druid. The numbers were made assuming 19 AC which is actually more than the Druid could hope for so the damage would be a bit higher against the Druid. He would just need to use his Find Steed spell to summon himself a Pegasus or something so he can fly up there.

Fighter 3 (Battle Master), Rogue 3 (Assassin), Monk 2, Paladin 12 (Oathbreaker)

3 Greatsword attacks with level 3 Improved Smite and D8 Superiority Die: .8775(3(4D6+12D8+10))
1 Greatsword attack with level 2 Improved Smite and D8 Superiority Die: .8775(4D6+10D8+10)
2 Unarmed Attacks with level 2 Improved smite: .8775(2(2D4+8D8+10))

.8775(3(16.64+54+10)) = 212.2848
.8775(16.64+45+10) = 62.8641
.8775(2(5+36+10)) = 89.505

= 364.6539

[MaxWilson]

That depends on how limited the scaling system is.

A suit of armor that linearly scales all dimensions up and down to fit the wearer would only be wearable by perhaps 50% of the humanoids interested in trying it on, and only perhaps 10% would have a proper fit suitable for actually taking it into battle. (unless it primarily consists of chainmail, which isn't as stringent)

Almost by definition, magic armor must change its proportions, not just size.

Once you accept this though, it doesn't really take much in the way of shifting proportions to make a breastplate wearable by a bear, or even a bird. So, how does one define the limits in such a way that only humanoid forms can take advantage of the feature?

I don't know much about armor-fitting, but when you say "proper fit suitable for actually taking it into battle", is this usually just a matter of making it thick/thin enough to physically fit your arms through, or is it more about the physiology of getting the joints to bend in the right direction? It's pretty easy to imagine a magical suit of armor which can lengthen its limbs as needed to put the joints in the right place, but can't reshape itself so its knees bend backward to fit a bird. You could cram the bird inside anyway but it sure wouldn't be able to walk very well. I don't know how that would work out for bears.

[Daishain]

I don't know much about armor-fitting, but when you say "proper fit suitable for actually taking it into battle", is this usually just a matter of making it thick/thin enough to physically fit your arms through, or is it more about the physiology of getting the joints to bend in the right direction? It's pretty easy to imagine a magical suit of armor which can lengthen its limbs as needed to put the joints in the right place, but can't reshape itself so its knees bend backward to fit a bird. You could cram the bird inside anyway but it sure wouldn't be able to walk very well. I don't know how that would work out for bears.
Biggest challenge in fitting most kinds of armor is positioning of the joints, especially when dealing with plate. If the joints of the armor are at all misaligned with the joints of the body, the person wearing it will find it difficult to impossible to move. Given the wide range of physiologies that player characters come in, even just among the base PHB races, this presents a particular challenge.

In order for a single suit to accommodate all humanoids, each joint structure must be able to rotate on all axes to at least a small degree, shift its position in relation to the rest of the armor, and change the proportional space it gives the limb to move within it.

Frankly, since bear arms and legs are quite similar in form and function to that of a human, the challenge of getting a suit to fit both a bear and a half orc is about the same as getting it to fit both a half orc and a halfling.

Now, a bird's leg is potentially another story. Of course, all you have to do out of the ordinary is have a single joint rotate 180 degrees and you're set. Also, there are plenty of intelligent humanoid creatures out there with reversed knees, many of whom were player characters in the past even if they are not in this edition. They should be perfectly eligible for the armor to resize for them as well.

[GiantOctopodes]

People use armour. Bears, horses, and other quadrupeds use barding. It's not just about the joints, its about the posture of the creature in question, its movement patters, and ensuring that the flexible parts are properly concealed. Human made armour, on a bear, would have *massive* weak spots, limit movement severely, and overall be a travesty and an utter failure. Horses are about as anatomically different as the birds you mention. Try to imagine a horse wearing normal human armour. Imagine a bear standing on its hind legs and wearing plate, then getting onto all fours, and where the resultant joints and seams would be. Resizing does *not* allow human armour to work on a non-humanoid form, not even close. Beyond that, it's expressly made clear that when wildshaping specifically, your equipment does *not* resize, so though you could as an example have it drop on the ground, then pick it up and put it on (likely with assistance) and possibly have it resize to fit due to the magical properties of the item, that does not occur as part of the wildshaping process, unless something specifically states otherwise, which this does not.

[Easy_Lee]

I posted the following Paladin in the Nova thread which does more than enough damage in a round to take care of the Druid. The numbers were made assuming 19 AC which is actually more than the Druid could hope for so the damage would be a bit higher against the Druid. He would just need to use his Find Steed spell to summon himself a Pegasus or something so he can fly up there.

Fighter 3 (Battle Master), Rogue 3 (Assassin), Monk 2, Paladin 12 (Oathbreaker)

3 Greatsword attacks with level 3 Improved Smite and D8 Superiority Die: .8775(3(4D6+12D8+10))
1 Greatsword attack with level 2 Improved Smite and D8 Superiority Die: .8775(4D6+10D8+10)
2 Unarmed Attacks with level 2 Improved smite: .8775(2(2D4+8D8+10))

.8775(3(16.64+54+10)) = 212.2848
.8775(16.64+45+10) = 62.8641
.8775(2(5+36+10)) = 89.505

= 364.6539

That assumes surprise for the crits. Eslin was unwilling to accept my shadow monk assassin getting the drop on his druid with a minimum stealth roll of 37 after expertise, reliable talent, and pass without trace. He believes the druid would know that X person is coming after him at Y time in Z specific wilderness, so I doubt he'll accept a flying paladin gaining initiative.

That said, you get a free dash on a mount and are likely able to land every attack on his flying form. Unless Eslin argues that his druid can go earth elemental and merge with the rock faster than you can catch him, I think you have him beat. The flying form has less HP, so you'll probably one-round him.

[Daishain]

People use armour. Bears, horses, and other quadrupeds use barding. It's not just about the joints, its about the posture of the creature in question, its movement patters, and ensuring that the flexible parts are properly concealed. Human made armour, on a bear, would have *massive* weak spots, limit movement severely, and overall be a travesty and an utter failure. Horses are about as anatomically different as the birds you mention. Try to imagine a horse wearing normal human armour. Imagine a bear standing on its hind legs and wearing plate, then getting onto all fours, and where the resultant joints and seams would be. Resizing does *not* allow human armour to work on a non-humanoid form, not even close. Beyond that, it's expressly made clear that when wildshaping specifically, your equipment does *not* resize, so though you could as an example have it drop on the ground, then pick it up and put it on (likely with assistance) and possibly have it resize to fit due to the magical properties of the item, that does not occur as part of the wildshaping process, unless something specifically states otherwise, which this does not.
I didn't say it was necessarily a smart thing to do, or that it was RAW, just that it would be physically possible within the context of armor that radically alters its form as needed.

A bear would actually do just fine with standard plating, so long as the few joint differences are kept in mind. (although chain, scale, and band have some problems due to hanging off the wrong way) There would be some additional vulnerabilities around the head and rear while on all fours, but nothing horrendous.

It does start to break down for a horse though. Too many anatomical differences lead to protecting exactly the wrong parts of the body.

[Morukai]

That assumes surprise for the crits. Eslin was unwilling to accept my shadow monk assassin getting the drop on his druid with a minimum stealth roll of 37 after expertise, reliable talent, and pass without trace. He believes the druid would know that X person is coming after him at Y time in Z specific wilderness, so I doubt he'll accept a flying paladin gaining initiative.

The Foresight spell specifically states that a creature affected by it cannot be surprised for the duration.

As I recall, Eslin's druid had Foresight active, or did I miss something?

[Easy_Lee]

As I recall, Eslin's druid had Foresight active, or did I miss something?

My plan was to wait around until the druid inevitably landed and made camp, and foresight wore off. Eslin believes his druid would find the shadow assassin first.

[silveralen]

The Foresight spell specifically states that a creature affected by it cannot be surprised for the duration.

As I recall, Eslin's druid had Foresight active, or did I miss something?

Right, the druid who apparently always had foresight on despite in being usable for 33% of the day at most. I think the justification was something along the line sof the druid being omniscient and therefor always knowing exactly when to cast what spells.

[Gwendol]

Schrödinger's Druid at work...

[Vogonjeltz]

They better be bloody well insulted, I just googled arctic cold and you're looking at -40 to -50 C.

I don't know about being offended, but they're certainly toasty warm. How is the Druid surviving in these temperatures by the way with no shelter? (The spell requires you to remain outdoors with a clear connection to the sky).


The druid has survival capabilities. The druid only needs wisdom and constitution, so it starts off no worse than anyone else and becomes far tougher to kill than anyone else starting at level 2. Even before then, the druid's no less defenseless than a wizard (except that the druid has more hp). Having low strength and dexterity does not equal inability to survive, especially when you can turn into animals to replace those stats.

And yes, I said that in general surviving requires preparation, planning, risk assessment etc - but please keep in mind that now that int doesn't affect skill points and the fighter won't be taking any intelligence based skills, mechanically the only reason to have any intelligence is for (incredibly rare) int saves. The fighter being anywhere near as smart as batman is deeply sub-optimal for the fighter, if you wanted intelligence to actually work for you be a caster or ask your DM to port the warblade over.

Yeah, what survival capabilities? Wisdom is great for perception and all that, but it's not going to save you when the arrows start flying and the swords start swinging. Being healthy is better for that, but it's really not going to do the Druid much good when he can't avoid a blow to save his life (literally). I don't see this Druid making it past level 1 with an 8 for Dex and Str, his AC is no better than a filthy Commoners' is. Gotta get to 2nd level for Wild Shape.

The Eldritch Knight needs Int; Fighters in general can pick up History which relies on Int. It's also useful for passing messages silently to allies when killing overconfident Druids, knowing how much the loot off that Druid they killed is worth, fooling that Druid by disguising themselves as another friendly Druid, drafting papers to forclose on the Druid's property (sorry bud, tell it to the local magistrate, you didn't pay your grove taxes, don't blame us, we just work here...), recalling that Druids are completely vulnerable to dispel magic, and gambling to win more with that stuff you took from the Druid.

See? Lots of (mechanical) uses for Intelligence!


I don't know much about armor-fitting, but when you say "proper fit suitable for actually taking it into battle", is this usually just a matter of making it thick/thin enough to physically fit your arms through, or is it more about the physiology of getting the joints to bend in the right direction? It's pretty easy to imagine a magical suit of armor which can lengthen its limbs as needed to put the joints in the right place, but can't reshape itself so its knees bend backward to fit a bird. You could cram the bird inside anyway but it sure wouldn't be able to walk very well. I don't know how that would work out for bears.

There's a sidebar about this in the PHB on 144. The instructions are "within the bounds of common sense."

Common sense says animals wouldn't be able to wear anything made for a humanoid not of the same size category.
And if they were of the same size category, they'd have to have a similar bone structure and body type. So a medium sized bear 'might' be able to continue to wear some loose fitting armor, like chainmail. More likely they'd get tripped up in it and be incapable of fighting. (Either penalties, or actually prevent them from taking the attack option).

As Daishain says, plate flat out wouldn't work, it's far too customized to particular (or even individual) body shapes and movements.

[Tvtyrant]

It is funny that the big focus is on level 20 here. Our druid took a dip in Barbarian so she would get unarmored defense and resistance in combat.

[JoeJ]

Based on what I've read in other threads, we have to expect that any average 20th level fighter is going to be armed with a sword taken from a solar that does 4d6 damage, which they can wield because they gained the ability to grow to large size when they became a werebear. As these are typical 20th level abilities, they need to be taken into account for this comparison.

[MaxWilson]

Also, does it bug anyone else that foresight has language hinting at you can cast it more than once per day?

You totally can. If not for that language, it would be possible to have foresight active on two characters at once. (Possibly three with twinning, but I'm AFB and can't check if twinning works on 9th level spells). Here's how:

Sorc 3 (Extended spell)/Warlock 17

1.) Cast Foresight and spend a sorcery point. Duration is now 16 hours.
2.) Take a long rest.
3.) Cast Foresight on a second character (possibly spending 9 sorcery points to Twin it for a third).
4.) Voila! For the next 8 hours, two (or three) characters have Foresight.

In practice this won't work because of precisely that sentence that is bothering you.

[Eslin]

Based on what I've read in other threads, we have to expect that any average 20th level fighter is going to be armed with a sword taken from a solar that does 4d6 damage, which they can wield because they gained the ability to grow to large size when they became a werebear. As these are typical 20th level abilities, they need to be taken into account for this comparison.

Solar seems a bit silly unless you also have a way to enchant the weapon. A dao maul or an ice devil spear (con save or opponent gets slowed!) would probably be better - and unless you're evil, taking a Solar's weapon seems kind of stupid. If you're just looking for a large weapon, a minotaur's greataxe does 2d12 damage and they're CR3.

[Ellington]

Scrapped. Air elementals are immune to poison.

[silveralen]

Solar seems a bit silly unless you also have a way to enchant the weapon. A dao maul or an ice devil spear (con save or opponent gets slowed!) would probably be better - and unless you're evil, taking a Solar's weapon seems kind of stupid. If you're just looking for a large weapon, a minotaur's greataxe does 2d12 damage and they're CR3.

Uh... nothing to say about the werebear aspect? Is that actually a legitimate assumption in your opinion?

[Eslin]

Uh... nothing to say about the werebear aspect? Is that actually a legitimate assumption in your opinion?

If they're practical and neutral good? Yes, yes it is.

[silveralen]

If they're practical and neutral good? Yes, yes it is.

Okay yeah I think I'm starting to see why you have Druid's abilities act as they do.

It's interesting, you run high power level games and thus read the passage in such a way as to work with that, I tend towards lower power and read the language in such a way as to work with that, and (until we started argueing) both interpretations worked perfectly fine for our tables.

Something to be said for that I think.

[Asaris]

I'm probably missing something, but isn't a druid limited to wildshaping twice between short rests?

[MadBear]

I'm probably missing something, but isn't a druid limited to wildshaping twice between short rests?

At level 20 their capstone lets them do it an unlimited amount of times.

[Asaris]

At level 20 their capstone lets them do it an unlimited amount of times.

Thanks, don't know how I missed that.

[Perseus]

There's a sidebar about this in the PHB on 144. The instructions are "within the bounds of common sense."

Common sense says animals wouldn't be able to wear anything made for a humanoid not of the same size category.
And if they were of the same size category, they'd have to have a similar bone structure and body type. So a medium sized bear 'might' be able to continue to wear some loose fitting armor, like chainmail. More likely they'd get tripped up in it and be incapable of fighting. (Either penalties, or actually prevent them from taking the attack option).

As Daishain says, plate flat out wouldn't work, it's far too customized to particular (or even individual) body shapes and movements.

I don't know, this armor would totally work on a gnome or something... :smalltongue:


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/VZdRngdvZqSEu5Hl7q81V8lt1SQaJbzfejT5wbDrqbF1fG0hVn ctJOMnVuvbQZUbtE_5Gssp-9gOqUReOli0Hm5Bi45sbKzq0KlhbnKvo1JNPLy3npx1mH7hILd a=w470-h313-nc

[Sartharina]

Almost 90 PAGES of the PHB is dedicated to how casters can interact in and out of combat, social interactions, day to day routines, and everything in between. Meanwhile, you can summarize everything a martial can do in less than 10 pages (unless said martial is a partial caster). If the martial classes had 90 pages of attacks, defenses, and utility abilities -- maybe things would be a lot better.I'd rather take 10 open-ended pages that let me do anything over 90 pages of specifically-outlined, discrete and self-contained tasks.

[Eslin]

I'd rather take 10 open-ended pages that let me do anything over 90 pages of specifically-outlined, discrete and self-contained tasks.

It's not a one or the other situation - casters get both the 90 discrete and the 10 open ended pages, martials only get the 10. And you pay a hefty fee for the fact that the open ended abilities let you do everything, making abilities discrete means they can be given far greater utility and/or power than would be fair on a costless limitless system. Why is it casters get a discrete and non discrete system while martials are stuck with non discrete? Why can't they have both?

[JoeJ]

It's not a one or the other situation - casters get both the 90 discrete and the 10 open ended pages, martials only get the 10. And you pay a hefty fee for the fact that the open ended abilities let you do everything, making abilities discrete means they can be given far greater utility and/or power than would be fair on a costless limitless system. Why is it casters get a discrete and non discrete system while martials are stuck with non discrete? Why can't they have both?

I think you've got that backwards. The discrete, well-defined abilities need to be more limited in power and utility because they're defined in the rules. The open-ended abilities require the DM to exercise judgment. That means they can have much greater power and utility because the required intervention of the DM helps keep them from breaking the game.

[silveralen]

I think you've got that backwards. The discrete, well-defined abilities need to be more limited in power and utility because they're defined in the rules. The open-ended abilities require the DM to exercise judgment. That means they can have much greater power and utility because the required intervention of the DM helps keep them from breaking the game.

The problem is not every DM understands balance well enough to do so. To be frank, I've seen people arguing that halving fighter's damage without touching moon druid's has no actual effect on game balance, so it seems obvious that some DMs are going to make lots of mistakes. So having a better fallback wouldn't be an awful idea.

That being said, I'm more in favor of expanding the existing framework (more predefined skill uses and skill contests, plus more class benefits to make martial characters superior at such things) than give them what amounts to a seperate spell listing. That's just a preference of mine.

[Eslin]

I think you've got that backwards. The discrete, well-defined abilities need to be more limited in power and utility because they're defined in the rules. The open-ended abilities require the DM to exercise judgment. That means they can have much greater power and utility because the required intervention of the DM helps keep them from breaking the game.

That's, uh, very very not true. By nature, an ability's strength is determined by what you pay for it. Opportunity costs, risk, time, money, higher spell slots, limitations in use or scope - these things determine the strength of an ability. Discrete abilities have specific uses, limitations and costs and in compensation receive more power than the completely open ended, unlimited use systems - if they didn't, there'd be no point in having the discrete system.

Two examples for contrast: The battlemaster fighter vs a regular character. The battlemaster pays for a system of discrete abilities and has to pick specific uses and has a limited number of them, comparing to the regular system of action which can do the same thing (taunt, push, disarm, knock down etc). In exchange, the fighter gets greater power - he can attack while doing so, can push the target further than a shove would, forces a specific save on getting the creature to attack him without needing to wait for circumstance.

Next example: Wizard vs regular character at achieving stuff. A regular character can use skills to try to jump over a barrier, climb a castle wall, convince a warden, sneak past a guard. The wizard can cast jump/spider climb or just levitate or fly, charm or dominate the warden, turn invisible or flat out teleport past the guard. This is because the wizard paid for this power - he invested in a class with spellcasting as its main feature, expended spell slots and had to choose a limited number of spells to be able to use that day (risk, rewarded for successfully picking the right tools), as opposed to the regular character which can use its skills unlimited times and has no hard limits on their capabilities.

A system of unlimited applications and uses must, by nature, be weaker than a system of discrete abilities. Which is why characters should have both.


The problem is not every DM understands balance well enough to do so. To be frank, I've seen people arguing that halving fighter's damage without touching moon druid's has no actual effect on game balance, so it seems obvious that some DMs are going to make lots of mistakes. So having a better fallback wouldn't be an awful idea.

That being said, I'm more in favor of expanding the existing framework (more predefined skill uses and skill contests, plus more class benefits to make martial characters superior at such things) than give them what amounts to a seperate spell listing. That's just a preference of mine.
I'd prefer half and half - a way for classes like fighters to get exceptional skill use as part of being a martial class, and more unique and discrete abilities for classes like monks. There is room for both.

[JoeJ]

That's, uh, very very not true. By nature, an ability's strength is determined by what you pay for it.

Nonsense. Only abilities that are available to some characters but not others need to be limited in that way, so that everybody has a chance to shine at the table. Abilities that are equally available to every character can be arbitrarily powerful. Thus, any player character can try to make friends with a king, or an archmage, or even a deity, and gain all the benefits such friendship entails. Any character can use their social contacts to found a guild or organization of some sort. Any player can think up some maneuver or tactic that nobody else thought of and propose it to the DM, with no limit on how effective it can be.

[Eslin]

Nonsense. Only abilities that are available to some characters but not others need to be limited in that way, so that everybody has a chance to shine at the table. Abilities that are equally available to every character can be arbitrarily powerful. Thus, any player character can try to make friends with a king, or an archmage, or even a deity, and gain all the benefits such friendship entails. Any character can use their social contacts to found a guild or organization of some sort. Any player can think up some maneuver or tactic that nobody else thought of and propose it to the DM, with no limit on how effective it can be.

There is a sharp limit on how effective it can be. There is no limit to the outcome of an ability - a word in the right place can destroy a nation - but in an edition where there is overlap between discrete and general use abilities (fly vs athletics, feral senses vs perception) the general use abilities need to have a sharp limit on their strength.

[Iolo Morganwg]

...can wild shape be dispelled?

I don't think so. The closest thing I can think of is a failed Moonbeam save.

[Daishain]

I don't think so. The closest thing I can think of is a failed Moonbeam save.
Moonbeam works pretty well, especially since you can keep forcing the save every turn, but Iirc, its only available to Green Knights and Druids themselves. (and bards, but they probably have sexier things in mind for that choice unless a campaign revolves around shapeshifters)

Honestly, that ability needs a good counter, or at least a more commonly usable one.

[PressureFM]

Please go gently on me, this is my first post.

We all assume Foresight is going to work against any possible assailant, simply by insuring that the Druid cannot be surprised and has advantage on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws for the duration of the spell, yes?

But the Advantage/Disadvantage rules works in such a way that if the assailant also has advantage, it cancels out the effect of the Foresight spell for that purpose. So any attack that makes the assailant have advantage means he rolls normally.

Don't have a specific build at this time but it seems people are largely overvaluing the spell Foresight as a means for making it hard to hit the druid. Somehow gain access to two favorable situations and it grants you advantage, as per the rules of Advantage and Disadvantage in Chapter 7.

[Gwendol]

He still cannot be surprised. That is not unsurmountable, but it sure does have an impact.

[Easy_Lee]

He still cannot be surprised. That is not unsurmountable, but it sure does have an impact.

Cannot be surprised during the eight-hour duration of the spell. He has to know when to cast it first, meaning assassination attempts will catch him without it 2/3 of the time at an absolute minimum (assuming no preparation on the assassin's part).

[Jamesps]

Honestly, that ability needs a good counter, or at least a more commonly usable one.

Antimagic aura has always been the "I win" button for martials. Unfortunately it's a caster only ability.

I wish Martials had a way to generate very short bursts of antimagic. Even for a single attack would be nice.

[Daishain]

Antimagic aura has always been the "I win" button for martials. Unfortunately it's a caster only ability.

I wish Martials had a way to generate very short bursts of antimagic. Even for a single attack would be nice.
I'm not sure wild shape would actually be bothered by AMF, the limits of its effects in this edition are not well defined.

In any event, as for tricks for martials they could bring back cold iron and expand its capabilities, or some similar material. Weapons and armor forged from a material that resists/ignores/disrupts magic and magical creatures are a pretty common theme in fantasy settings.

[Gwendol]

The transformation is described as magical so it seems reasonable to rule it ends in an AMF.

[Gwendol]

Cannot be surprised during the eight-hour duration of the spell. He has to know when to cast it first, meaning assassination attempts will catch him without it 2/3 of the time at an absolute minimum (assuming no preparation on the assassin's part).

Yes, absolutely so. The assassin would be wise to know when to strike.

[MadBear]

Yes, absolutely so. The assassin would be wise to know when to strike.

To be fair, the druid will most likely cast meld to stone during the night to sleep and thereby be immune to attack during that 8 hour period.

The rest of the time the druid is up without foresight, he'd probably fly outside of bow range for the entire duration until foresight was up.

[McBars]

Commission a wizard or sorcerer. Move on to next conquest.

[Easy_Lee]

To be fair, the druid will most likely cast meld to stone during the night to sleep and thereby be immune to attack during that 8 hour period.

The rest of the time the druid is up without foresight, he'd probably fly outside of bow range for the entire duration until foresight was up.

Any action by a martial has a response that a prescient caster might use to counter it. And any action by a caster has a countering item somewhere that an enterprising assassin might acquire. We can do this forever.

Assuming the druid isn't prescient, he will die to the shadow assassin eventually. That's enough for me.

[MadBear]

Any action by a martial has a response that a prescient caster might use to counter it. And any action by a caster has a countering item somewhere that an enterprising assassin might acquire. We can do this forever.

Assuming the druid isn't prescient, he will die to the shadow assassin eventually. That's enough for me.

I agree, however as Eslin set out very early to show. This particular Druid knows your after him, and he's using tactics specifically to prevent said martial to beat him. It's the same reason he has the feats he does, and is flying up as a air elemental rather then any other form.

[Easy_Lee]

I agree, however as Eslin set out very early to show. This particular Druid knows your after him, and he's using tactics specifically to prevent said martial to beat him. It's the same reason he has the feats he does, and is flying up as a air elemental rather then any other form.

If the druid spends all day, every day, flying up in the air, and all night inside of stone, he will quickly grow exhausted from it. It's just a matter of time.

Edit: and honestly, if you want a character who's difficult to kill, just play an open hand monk with alert, lucky, and some stat items. I think that character would be more difficult to finish than the druid.

[Vogonjeltz]

I don't know, this armor would totally work on a gnome or something...

Awww. It looks like he's wearing that backwards if it were meant to be a breastplate and not barding however. Also, a cat is like, 1/4 the size of a gnome (at best).


I don't think so. The closest thing I can think of is a failed Moonbeam save.

Dispel Magic says it works against any Magical Effects. Wild Shape is a magical effect. Ipso Facto, Dispel Magic removes Wild Shape.

[JoeJ]

To be fair, the druid will most likely cast meld to stone during the night to sleep and thereby be immune to attack during that 8 hour period.

The rest of the time the druid is up without foresight, he'd probably fly outside of bow range for the entire duration until foresight was up.

A druid that spends 16 hours a day trying to hide from an assassin is not attending to his duties. So while he's inside the rock or way up in the air the assassin burns down his sacred grove, murders his family and friends, despoils and poisons the land the druid is supposed to be protecting, pollutes the streams and the wells, whispers lies to turn the king against him. He destroys everything the druid cares for, and in the process proves to the gods of nature that their servant is unworthy of the power they've entrusted him with.

[AmbientRaven]

A druid that spends 16 hours a day trying to hide from an assassin is not attending to his duties. So while he's inside the rock or way up in the air the assassin burns down his sacred grove, murders his family and friends, despoils and poisons the land the druid is supposed to be protecting, pollutes the streams and the wells, whispers lies to turn the king against him. He destroys everything the druid cares for, and in the process proves to the gods of nature that their servant is unworthy of the power they've entrusted him with.

This

Also
"I wish the druid can only turn into a defenseless creature with no form of protection, that is hated by every living creature, cant fight back, cast spells, or do anything but sit still. it also can be easily found and visable"
It can be martial, as a College of War bard is that way inclined.

[Eslin]

I agree, however as Eslin set out very early to show. This particular Druid knows your after him, and he's using tactics specifically to prevent said martial to beat him. It's the same reason he has the feats he does, and is flying up as a air elemental rather then any other form.

No it isn't. He has the feats he does because those are the feats I'd give a level 20 druid. The druid's activities are tailored to beating the martial, since he's aware he's in a fight for his life, but his build is a generic level 20 build, not tailored to anything in particular except being useful.


A druid that spends 16 hours a day trying to hide from an assassin is not attending to his duties. So while he's inside the rock or way up in the air the assassin burns down his sacred grove, murders his family and friends, despoils and poisons the land the druid is supposed to be protecting, pollutes the streams and the wells, whispers lies to turn the king against him. He destroys everything the druid cares for, and in the process proves to the gods of nature that their servant is unworthy of the power they've entrusted him with.

The scenario was a general 1v1 fight, picked specifically so I didn't have to keep track of moving parts like other NPCs.

[MaxWilson]

Dispel Magic says it works against any Magical Effects. Wild Shape is a magical effect. Ipso Facto, Dispel Magic removes Wild Shape.

If it worked on any magical effects, it would work against things like the Rakshasa's curse or Medusa's petrification, which generally take Remove Curse or Greater Restoration to remove.

[itsdvw]

Dispel Magic says it works against any Magical Effects. Wild Shape is a magical effect. Ipso Facto, Dispel Magic removes Wild Shape.

Not quite. Dispel Magic can target a magical effect. What it does is end any spell on the target. Casting Dispel Magic on the druid would only end spell buffs on it. You could cast Dispel Magic on the druid's Wild Shape, but that would have no effect.

[MadBear]

No it isn't. He has the feats he does because those are the feats I'd give a level 20 druid. The druid's activities are tailored to beating the martial, since he's aware he's in a fight for his life, but his build is a generic level 20 build, not tailored to anything in particular except being useful.

Ok, maybe you could clarify Eslin. The point I was responding to was that the assassin would wait for the foresight to be down before attacking. I simply pointed out that the druid could completely stay out of any situation where he'd be at that disadvantage. (sleeping in stone, staying hundreds of feet above or below ground, etc.).

I'm confused because when I pointed out that there's no logical reason for him to be a fluffy cloud all day, you said it was because there was no good reason for him to not do that. In that case, are you saying he wouldn't spend his non-foresight times in such a way as to avoid the rogues attacks?

[Easy_Lee]

Know what? Just because this is pissing me off, I'm going to kill this druid for good. And I'm going to do it with a 15th level wizard, not even max. And I'm going to do it with three spells and a Bag of Holding. And I'm going to do it without even giving the druid a save.

A 14th level wizard has up to 8th level casting (one slot). My wizard is an illusionist. Picture a tan, leathery-skinned, white-bearded, wrinkled old man. He enters the forest where the druid is flying around, and hangs out on the forest floor. How did he get there? He just cast Invisibility on himself and walked. Don't worry, he doesn't need surprise. He doesn't even need to get very close to the druid.

He's going to cast Programmed Illusion 120 feet up in the air, around where the druid is flying. The programmed illusion is imperceptible. Even if it were visible, the druid has to look at it and, specifically attempt to disbelieve it, otherwise he just sees the illusion. Again, the druid would have to know an illusion was there in order to attempt to disbelieve it or, in this case, even perceive it (assuming a very kind DM willing to ignore the imperceptible bit).

And then my wizard is going to wait. Programmed illusion has no concentration requirement and infinite duration. If he really feels like it, the wizard might cast invisibility or similar a few times. He's just going to wait for the druid to fly overhead at his 120 foot height.

When that happens, the programmed illusion immediately becomes an adamantite box that completely encases the druid. There is no save to this. The box is just suddenly there. Again, this is an instantaneous effect because there is no delay between the trigger and the box suddenly blinking into existence.

Then the wizard uses his bonus action and 14th level ability "Illusory Reality" to make that box real.

Sure, it can't do damage, but the druid is still trapped in an adamantite box with no seams, no latch, no nothing, and again, no save. He probably doesn't even know what it is. And he's about to take some falling damage when that box falls to the ground. Or maybe not, since he's an air elemental, but it doesn't matter.

If the DM doesn't like him using his bonus action at a preferable point to make the programmed illusion real, then the wizard will just use a 3rd level Major Image spell instead of programmed illusion, just to be even more insulting. That he can do on his turn as soon as the druid flies overhead. Hell, he can even just hold an action to do it if he wants to be flashy. It has 120 foot range. Just wait for the druid to fly overhead.

The box stays real for one minute, and unless the druid can find a way to break adamantite or teleport (he doesn't get one), he's stuck. But our wizard bro doesn't plan on waiting that long. The druid-in-a-box falls during the wizard's turn, and as he does, the wizard uses his action to Use An Object. He drops a slightly larger, airtight adamantite box out of the bag of holding, which he prepared earlier from a huge and expensive chunk of adamantite, right where the druid is about to fall. He closes the lid, sealing the druid in. If adamantite is unavailable, iron will work just fine. Hell, even extremely thick wood might work, depending on what tools the druid is carrying. But adamantite is preferable. He closes the lid, seals the druid in.

If the druid summons some light in there, he'll see the words "bread box" inscribed on the inside of his prison. I say "if" because he may not get the chance. While the druid tries to figure out exactly what spell he might cast to damage adamantite without killing himself, my wizard's final action is to cast Antimagic Field. He sits down next to the box, and then concentrates on the field for the next hour.

During the next hour, the druid can't cast any spells, can't shape change, can't do jack. Any magic items he was carrying are mundane for the duration. Any creatures he summoned cannot enter or affect anything in the field, or they are dispelled. His foresight doesn't even work anymore, but he doesn't need it to foresee what's coming.

And the druid suffocates to death, slowly and painfully, fully aware of his own imminent death.

And the wizard smiles.

The end.

[EugeneVoid]

Wait, but caster? I thought this was martials. I've only been kind of paying attention to this thread. Caster vs caster is still ridic at high end