Uncommon saves

[D.U.P.A.]

I'm searching for events not from spells which could force saves from different abilities. For common saves isn't hard to figure out. Even for Strength there are many choices, like PC trying to stand on feet because of strong wave of wind or water, holding himself on a handle. But what can be used for Intelligence and Charisma saves, do you have any ideas? Of course talking about saves, not skill checks, so certain class can benefit of save proficiency in less useful abilities.

[RealCheese]

I'm searching for events not from spells which could force saves from different abilities. For common saves isn't hard to figure out. Even for Strength there are many choices, like PC trying to stand on feet because of strong wave of wind or water, holding himself on a handle. But what can be used for Intelligence and Charisma saves, do you have any ideas? Of course talking about saves, not skill checks, so certain class can benefit of save proficiency in less useful abilities.

For intelligence save, perhaps a contested save to determine the winner between a big bad evil guy and the wizard in a chess-like game?

[MaxWilson]

I'm searching for events not from spells which could force saves from different abilities. For common saves isn't hard to figure out. Even for Strength there are many choices, like PC trying to stand on feet because of strong wave of wind or water, holding himself on a handle. But what can be used for Intelligence and Charisma saves, do you have any ideas? Of course talking about saves, not skill checks, so certain class can benefit of save proficiency in less useful abilities.

Charisma is a tough one. It seems to get used for spells that are curses or banishments, so I'm guessing it's roughly a measure of your "presence," so to speak. Would a "natural" curse count for your purposes? Something like a mummy's tomb, anyone who fails a CHA 15 save can't sleep properly (no long rest benefit) until the curse is removed.

[jkat718]

Charisma is a tough one. It seems to get used for spells that are curses or banishments, so I'm guessing it's roughly a measure of your "presence," so to speak. Would a "natural" curse count for your purposes? Something like a mummy's tomb, anyone who fails a CHA 15 save can't sleep properly (no long rest benefit) until the curse is removed.

IIRC, a save versus non-magical fear was typically a Will save in previous editions, so I would probably rule your example to be a Wisdom save under 5e rules. Ofc, you can always give the players a choice. If you succeed the WIS save, then you force yourself to sleep, despite your fears. If you succeed at a CHA save, then you convince yourself that the scary things won't hurt you? Not sure, but maybe having the two saves be made at different DCs, and have slightly different results. E.g. you sleep no matter which save you make, but the CHA save DC increases for every encounter that takes place, but the WIS save decreases. That's actually an interesting system, but might cause some strife between players with better CHA or WIS scores.

[Ralanr]

For charisma saves I'd focus on social interaction (Though this may be a bad idea). Say "roll a charisma save to not make the situation awkward" type of deal. Even the most charismatic bastards can twist their tongues.

[MaxWilson]

IIRC, a save versus non-magical fear was typically a Will save in previous editions, so I would probably rule your example to be a Wisdom save under 5e rules.

Will and Wisdom are different things. For example, Banishment would have been a Will save in 3rd edition (according to the SRD anyway), but in 5E it's a Charisma save, not a Wisdom save.

[Galen]

I view Intelligence as the go-to save for "figure out the illusion ain't real" type of stuff, and Charisma for "the enemy overwhelms you with sheer force of personality" effects.

[Shadow]

I view Intelligence as the go-to save for "figure out the illusion ain't real" type of stuff, and Charisma for "the enemy overwhelms you with sheer force of personality" effects.

This.
And for the record, I think Polymorph and similar effects should have been Cha saves rather than Wisdom.
The spell isn't testing your force of will, but rather your sense of self.
Those two things were grouped together under 3e, but they are separate entities in 5e, and some things were catagorized incorrectly in my mind (probably out of habit).

[Shining Wrath]

I view Charisma as your ability to change how others think / feel about you. For the Charisma based casters and very especially Sorcerers, they change how the entire Universe / Weave feels about them by sheer force of personality.

They've done a pretty good job of mapping different ways to do that to social skills - Intimidate, Deception, Persuasion. But as in the example of the Sorcerer or Bard or Warlock working magic, there might be cases where something you might think of as inanimate (or, perhaps, uninterested in mortals) might bend to your will because you are just that awesome. Therefore, getting Great Cthulhu to notice that you're in his chamber in Ryleh and talk to you might be a straight Charisma save. You aren't persuading him, and you certainly aren't intimidating him (heh); your personality is so powerful that a Great Old One can feel it and responds to it.

Another straight Charisma save might be the bully choosing someone to pick on and make an example of. I remember a Conan story where a wizard had a Scarf of Doom (not one of RE Howard's better moments) that would turn those it touched into stone; he wanted to pick a victim, and the story basically says he came to Conan and passed over him because there was something daunting about the way the Cimmerian carried himself.

Then there's the nymph / dryad / satyr catching sight of the character and "falling in love", straight out of Greek myth. The PC is unaware that their Charisma is active; they aren't using a skill, but the nymph still can't help herself.

Intelligence gets used any time you attempt to figure out how anything works. That's every trap in your dungeon, for starters; how to operate every secret door (unless the party has Shaggy and Scooby along, who will simply stumble across the correct book / sconce); every portcullis to raise, drawbridge to lower, and so on.

[Shadow]

Shining, the vast majority of what you just described are ability checks rather than saving throws.
Saving throws are made when something bad is happening. Can you stop it from happening, avoid it, or lessen its effect? Make a saving throw.

[MaxWilson]

This.
And for the record, I think Polymorph and similar effects should have been Cha saves rather than Wisdom.
The spell isn't testing your force of will, but rather your sense of self.
Those two things were grouped together under 3e, but they are separate entities in 5e, and some things were catagorized incorrectly in my mind (probably out of habit).

This is a good idea.

[D.U.P.A.]

Yes, I played 4e before, you had some sort will save based on wisdom/constitution. Also reflex considered intelligence along with dexterity, even though it's a mental stat. But now we are left with more types of saves. However most mental saves like sanity checks in 5e are mostly handled by wisdom. All such conditions as fear, charm, sleep, banishment (like imprisonment) and all other psychic and deceptive magic are resisted by wisdom.

[Composer99]

OP, I would say that Charisma saving throws are (IMO) easy to define: as far as I can see, they are saving throws against effects which attack your personality, sense of self, sense of identity, and similar.

So, to borrow an example used by Shining Wrath, you would need to make a Charisma save to resist being driven mad by being in the presence of a Great Old One, or to extend the idea, effects which result in madness.

I'm running into a bit more trouble with Intelligence saves. It seems to me that there is a great deal of overlap between Intelligence skill use and Wisdom saving throws where the Intelligence saving throw 'usage space' would be. (In fact the downloadable basic rules PDF explicitly call for an Intelligence (Investigate) skill check against your save DC for the minor illusion and major image spells).

I mean, trying to distinguish between what is real and what isn't could be a Wisdom save (or Wisdom (Perception) skill check) if you're making a snap judgement, or an Intelligence (Investigate) check if you're doing a thorough examination.

So I guess you would use an Intelligence save for things that are functionally similar to Intelligence skill checks, only you need to sort them out right freakin' now - the mental equivalent of catching yourself on the ledge before you fall into the spiky pit.

[Composer99]

Yes, I played 4e before, you had some sort will save based on wisdom/constitution. Also reflex considered intelligence along with dexterity, even though it's a mental stat. But now we are left with more types of saves. However most mental saves like sanity checks in 5e are mostly handled by wisdom. All such conditions as fear, charm, sleep, banishment (like imprisonment) and all other psychic and deceptive magic are resisted by wisdom.

Really? Well, there's not much to Charisma saves then, is there.

[D.U.P.A.]

I had in mind lovecraftian style campaigns, where characters would hear creepy sounds from the dark, whispers in their heads, seeing odd unclear forms and shapes, all of which would took their mental capabilities at the test than physical. Putting on all wisdom would be rather boring.

[Slipperychicken]

Charisma save: Check to see if your makeup, hair-stye, nails, or outfit emerges from a fight unscathed.

[S_Dalsgaard]

According to a guy over at EnWorld who has got his hands on the DMG, horror saves are based on Charisma.

[Slipperychicken]

According to a guy over at EnWorld who has got his hands on the DMG, horror saves are based on Charisma.

So horror and Frightened are different things now? I don't have the DMG, but all the saves against fear I've seen (PHB and MM) were handled by wisdom.

[S_Dalsgaard]

So horror and Frightened are different things now? I don't have the DMG, but all the saves against fear I've seen (PHB and MM) were handled by wisdom.

Yes, he specifically mentioned that fear was a Wisdom save, while horror was Charisma. Unfortunately he didn't mention if there was any reason for the difference.

His exact quote:

"Ravenloft is mentioned. The Domains of Dread are demiplanes, typically reached by the Shadowfell.

Fear: make a wisdom save or be frightened for 1 minute. Horror saves are based on charisma. On a failed save a character can become mad with short term insanity, long term and indefinite (reminds me a lot of CoC). Each thype has a table that you can roll on."

[D.U.P.A.]

Yes, he specifically mentioned that fear was a Wisdom save, while horror was Charisma. Unfortunately he didn't mention if there was any reason for the difference.

His exact quote:

"Ravenloft is mentioned. The Domains of Dread are demiplanes, typically reached by the Shadowfell.

Fear: make a wisdom save or be frightened for 1 minute. Horror saves are based on charisma. On a failed save a character can become mad with short term insanity, long term and indefinite (reminds me a lot of CoC). Each thype has a table that you can roll on."

This sounds awesome.

[Nargrakhan]

As per the usual, our GM use Charisma checks (and associated skills) for seduction rolls and whatnot... but "performance in bed" was generally determined by a Constitution roll.

Just because Mr. Boytoy looked good and talked a good game, didn't mean he had the endurance to satisfy his mistress. So basically the difference in the two's Constitution could determine who was happy and/or unhappy about the late night romp. :smallwink:

[GiantOctopodes]

Str: Uncommon, mostly deals with breaking out of confinement or avoiding being knocked around / knocked prone.
Dex: Common, mostly deals with avoiding AOE effects.
Con: *Very* Common, mostly deals with reducing single target damage or avoiding status effects, has been expanded in this version to also include many AOE effects. By far the most universally useful, the worst to fail, and the most commonly called upon. This is exacerbated by Con being the most universally useful stat before taking saving throws into account, and it makes Con just flat way too useful for my taste.
Int: Used by Alter Memories, Feeblemind, Phantasmal Force, and Symbol: Insanity. Rare, to say the least.
Wis: Common, used to resist charm, compulsion, holding, and incapacitation.
Cha: Uncommon, mostly deals with extradimensional creatures and emotional control.

In short, Dex, Con, and Wis remain the 3 primary ones, and to their credit, no class has more than one of those three. Str and Cha are used at times, with Str it is often in situations where a str check would be called for previously (so overlapping previously existing utility, just calling the mechanic a different name), with Cha it is often in situations where a Will save would be used previously, diminishing the global usefulness of something that already controls perception and save or die effects as is. Basically, the only real expansion of utility was making Cha useful even to Int based spellcasters that wanted to deal with extradimensional creatures (which fits the fluff really well) and in increasing the situations that call for a Con save (which was a terrible idea imho, makes con *way* more important than it should be, and makes it somewhat of a "trap" to fail to invest in Con (not sure who would fall for that trap, but the point remains)). Int as a save is really just lip service, and all the situations people are describing are int *checks*, whether in a vacuum or opposed, not int saves. Nothing is happening to them that is being resisted by Int. Even Maze, which should *really* be an Int save, is instead an Int check, making Int by far the most useless of the saving throws, seconded by Cha for those not dealing with extradimensional creatures (though resisting emotional control can be a small consolation).

In short, from most to least useful:
Con
Wis
Dex
Str
Cha
Int

And on that basis, best to worst for saves would be: [Tied: Barb, Fighter], Sorcerer, [Tied: Cleric, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Warlock], [Tied: Bard, Druid, Wizard], Rogue.

I know this isn't really the point of this question, but the question made me curious, and I thought I would share the results of my findings.