Murder with Darts. That are cards. That are darts. (Deadly Dealer Optimization)

[Endless Query]

So some friends are putting together a goofy Pathfinder game, not to be taken too seriously, as I've been informed, and so while I was considering messing around with some of the Hybrid classes, but while poking through various archetypes and stuff I hadn't seen before on the PF wiki, I came across... This:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/card-caster-magus-archetype

And I went "Now here, is clearly, the class to play in a silly game. I will defeat my enemies with murderous cards. You may call me Setzer."

The only problem is, I have no idea how to make a gimmick of "I am currently carrying three decks of cards, ergo I am currently carrying 162 darts" into something even remotely functional or worthwhile. We're using rolled stats, and I ended up with:

12, 13, 14, 14, 14, 17

In case that matters, any suggestions? Or even just ways to do really effective things with darts in general?

[grarrrg]

I was going to suggest Angry Naked Beard Wrestling Dwarf of Doom.
Basically start with White-Bearded Witch (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/white-haired-witch), then dip around to get bonuses for being unarmored (monk), and angry (barbarian).


And I went "Now here, is clearly, the class to play in a silly game. I will defeat my enemies with murderous cards. You may call me Setzer."

The only problem is, I have no idea how to make a gimmick of "I am currently carrying three decks of cards, ergo I am currently carrying 162 darts" into something even remotely functional or worthwhile. We're using rolled stats, and I ended up with:

12, 13, 14, 14, 14, 17

In case that matters, any suggestions?

Start with 17 DEX, 14 INT
(default) Tiefling comes to mind, has a decent Magus Favored option as well.

For effectiveness, I'm thinking attempt to abuse the hell out of the level 3 ability Role Dealer.
Since you can still 'randomly' draw from a partial deck of cards, split each Harrow Deck you buy into 3 separate decks:
24 "dull" cards that do not match your alignment at all. Used on opponents not worthy of better attacks (i.e. Goblin Horde).
24 "bonus" cards that match 1 of your alignments (19-20 crit range). Used on 'worthy' opponents.
6 "boss fight" cards that match both of your alignments (19-20/x3 +4 on confirm rolls). "boss fight" cards, nuff said.

[Dusk Eclipse]

First thing that came to mind when I read this thread (http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/TwistedFate_7.jpg)*

*Big image, hence why I linked

[AvatarVecna]

So...I'm actually playing one of these in a pbp game here on the site. Instead of playing it silly, I think I've gone pretty serious about it (that said, it's only just started). Aim more for Gambit from X-men, and you'll have a good time.

[Venger]

First thing that came to mind when I read this thread (http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/TwistedFate_7.jpg)*

*Big image, hence why I linked

I went in a different direction (http://www.scifinow.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Gambit-movie.jpg)

[Extra Anchovies]

Tip: try to pick up Far Shot and Distance Thrower; tossing cards out to 60 feet at no penalty is pretty great.

[Endless Query]

I am disappointed with your choices of references. I clearly already chose an appropriate card flinger (http://static.zerochan.net/Setzer.Gabbiani.full.682287.jpg) to reference. Ah well.

The Role Dealer shenanigans is very cute, and I had not thought of that. I was definitely leaning towards the 17 Dex start, and I've had some people mention TWF + Rapid Shot shenanigans, but I'm concerned that at the point the game is starting (Level 5) taking a -4 on all of my attacks looks more like a flurry of misses than a death of a thousand cuts.

Also it's kinda sad how PF doesn't have much throwing weapon support.

[AvatarVecna]

Also it's kinda sad how PF doesn't have much throwing weapon support.

You're preaching to the freaking choir here. In 3.5, it was possible to make a thrown weapon expert that didn't suck: between the Bloodstorm Blade and the Master Thrower, you had the basis for throwing any weapon...assuming you didn't just cheese the hell out of a Hulking Hulker/Bloodstorm Blade.

For a while, the big problem in PF was that there was no way to full attack with thrown weapons without purchasing an armory; even if you could, there wasn't much to do other than a standard full attack. Then the "Charging Hurler" feats arrived, and now there was something interesting to do: combine thrown weapons with ubercharging. All that you needed now was a way to use just one weapon to do it. Enter the Blinkback Belt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-blink-back): teleports your weapon back to you after every throw, in between attacks; on the one hand, it technically returns the weapon to its sheathe, which can be solved by taking the Quick Draw feat.

As it is, I'm currently working on an ECL 20 3.0/3.5/PF character that uses that belt, Master Thrower, Bloodstorm Blade, and Iaijutsu Master to turn the DPR up to 11. Now all I need is multiple ways of guaranteeing flat-footed opponents and tons of feats...

[Extra Anchovies]

I am disappointed with your choices of references. I clearly already chose an appropriate card flinger (http://static.zerochan.net/Setzer.Gabbiani.full.682287.jpg) to reference. Ah well.

The Role Dealer shenanigans is very cute, and I had not thought of that. I was definitely leaning towards the 17 Dex start, and I've had some people mention TWF + Rapid Shot shenanigans, but I'm concerned that at the point the game is starting (Level 5) taking a -4 on all of my attacks looks more like a flurry of misses than a death of a thousand cuts.

Also it's kinda sad how PF doesn't have much throwing weapon support.

You really don't need to TWF with thrown weapons and take rapid shot. Ranged combat, though effective, is rather feat-heavy, so TWF might not fit in the build. On a medium-BAB class I'd recommend not taking TWF at all and instead sticking with Rapid Shot (since even the second extra attack may not be hitting often enough to be worth the feat).


on the one hand, it technically returns the weapon to its sheathe, which can be solved by taking the Quick Draw feat.

Actually, with thrown weapons that are treated as ammunition, such as Deadly Dealer Harrow cards and shuriken, you don't need quick draw; drawing ammunition is a free action (otherwise archers would suck to Baator and back).

[The Random NPC]

I am disappointed with your choices of references. I clearly already chose an appropriate card flinger (http://static.zerochan.net/Setzer.Gabbiani.full.682287.jpg) to reference. Ah well.

The Role Dealer shenanigans is very cute, and I had not thought of that. I was definitely leaning towards the 17 Dex start, and I've had some people mention TWF + Rapid Shot shenanigans, but I'm concerned that at the point the game is starting (Level 5) taking a -4 on all of my attacks looks more like a flurry of misses than a death of a thousand cuts.

Also it's kinda sad how PF doesn't have much throwing weapon support.

It has more than 3.5, with the blinkback belt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-blink-back), and the Two-Handed Thrower (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/two-handed-thrower-combat) feat. I will admit that that's almost all of it, however.

[Extra Anchovies]

It has more than 3.5, with the blinkback belt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-blink-back), and the Two-Handed Thrower (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/two-handed-thrower-combat) feat. I will admit that that's almost all of it, however.

I hardly see how that is "more" than Bloodstorm Blade, Master Thrower, Invisible Blade, and Exotic Weapon Master. Also 3.5 Far Shot was a lot better for throwers than PF Far Shot.

[AvatarVecna]

You really don't need to TWF with thrown weapons and take rapid shot. Ranged combat, though effective, is rather feat-heavy, so TWF might not fit in the build. On a medium-BAB class I'd recommend not taking TWF at all and instead sticking with Rapid Shot (since even the second extra attack may not be hitting often enough to be worth the feat).



Actually, with thrown weapons that are treated as ammunition, such as Deadly Dealer Harrow cards and shuriken, you don't need quick draw; drawing ammunition is a free action (otherwise archers would suck to Baator and back).

He's right; the only reason I'm getting away with it the Deadly Dealer dual-wielder with Rapid Shot is because I'm gestalting in a game that gives extra feats to martial characters. As for the Blinkback Belt, I was more appreciating it for the Iaijutsu Focus abuse. Of course, the ammunition thing is the reason my Card Caster is hankering for that belt: it's awesome.

[Endless Query]

I'm going to have to disagree with a Random NPC here, as the Avatar of Vecna pointed out, there was some pretty crazy things you could get up to in 3.5...

Though, sadly, as ammunition, cards and darts don't seem valid for the blinkback belt either, one, because I don't think I could reasonably claim to hang them from it, and two, the text of Deadly Dealer destroys your card when you throw it every time.

Also, in the case of taking Two Weapon Fighting *or* Rapid Shot, doesn't Two Weapon Fighting have more room for growth later, and therefore, all other things being equal (as only bows can use Manyshot), it the "preferred" option? Or would you be advocating going for Snap Shot at some point?

[Extra Anchovies]

As a semi-aside, what would be a good Pathfinder class for throwing in general? Maybe a Ranger or Slayer?


He's right; the only reason I'm getting away with it the Deadly Dealer dual-wielder with Rapid Shot is because I'm gestalting in a game that gives extra feats to martial characters. As for the Blinkback Belt, I was more appreciating it for the Iaijutsu Focus abuse. Of course, the ammunition thing is the reason my Card Caster is hankering for that belt: it's awesome.

Hm. Idea.

Get your standard Harrow deck, remove all six of the cards that match your alignment. Throw the rest at various folks. Equip the blinkback belt. Enjoy your infinitely-renewable pool of 19-20/x3 darts. Nevermind; see Endless Query's post.

[AvatarVecna]

3.5 only got away with stacking TWF and Rapid Shot because it had the Master Thrower, who could target Touch AC at ranged with full BAB.


Hm. Idea.

Get your standard Harrow deck, remove all six of the cards that match your alignment. Throw the rest at various folks. Equip the blinkback belt. Enjoy your infinitely-renewable pool of 19-20/x3 darts.

Now you're getting it! That said, I'm gonna make sure my DM is cool with this, on account of "I'm riding a train into a mineshaft where a possible riot is occurring", and I'm only currently 1st lvl. Most DMs don't even need an in-game excuse for why rocks would suddenly fall and guarantee death for all; WE'RE IN A FREAKING MINING TUNNEL.

EDIT: And the only reason I'm getting away with it is that the DM has ruled that thown weapon ammunition isn't destroyed on impact. Muahaha!

EDIT 2: Ranger and Slayer are decent throwers, and rogues are pretty classic (look at the pic on the pfsrd!), even if it's rather difficult to pull it off consistently; that said, if you just want someone who's good with their weapons, you can't beat the classic Fighter (although I'm not sure what archetype to go with, other than perhaps the Weapon Master).

[The Random NPC]

I hardly see how that is "more" than Bloodstorm Blade, Master Thrower, Invisible Blade, and Exotic Weapon Master. Also 3.5 Far Shot was a lot better for throwers than PF Far Shot.

You know, somehow I forgot all of that. Don't know what I was thinking.

[Endless Query]

Come to think of it, it'd take a month, but if you were crafting your own Harrow deck, couldn't you just say you only print the 6 cards you want over and over again, making a deck of 54 cards that are just them repeated? Full deck, full benefits, full killing power!

Normally I'd be concerned about this level of "twinking" but "twinking" for a 1d4 19-20/x3 thrown weapon doesn't really feel like it's going to even lightly caress the game balance.

[AvatarVecna]

Come to think of it, it'd take a month, but if you were crafting your own Harrow deck, couldn't you just say you only print the 6 cards you want over and over again, making a deck of 54 cards that are just them repeated? Full deck, full benefits, full killing power!

Normally I'd be concerned about this level of "twinking" but "twinking" for a 1d4 19-20/x3 thrown weapon doesn't really feel like it's going to even lightly caress the game balance.

What makes it problematic is when you add the powerful crit stuff to the magus spell criticals.

[Zanos]

Also it's kinda sad how PF doesn't have much throwing weapon support.
You could always throw an infinite number of shields. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/shield-throwing)

[grarrrg]

Come to think of it, it'd take a month, but if you were crafting your own Harrow deck, couldn't you just say you only print the 6 cards you want over and over again, making a deck of 54 cards that are just them repeated?

Then it wouldn't be an _actual_ Harrow deck. It would just be a bunch of cards that look like they should be in a Harrow deck.
The universe knows the difference.

Heck, even my suggestion of "splitting" a deck is a little rules bendy, as it is quite likely NOT the intended use.
To use the Role Dealer ability you must RANDOMLY draw a card from a Harrow deck.
There is nothing stopping you from _not_ randomly drawing a card from a Harrow deck.
If you throw a Harrow Card with Deadly Dealer, the card thrown is destroyed (likely destroyed even without using Deadly Dealer, due to general Ammunition rules).
A not-full Harrow deck is still a Harrow Deck, it just cannot be used for a "Harrow Reading" or anything that requires a FULL Harrow deck to use.

Ergo:
You should be able to 'customize' your Harrow decks, and split One deck into Three Specialized decks.
At the very least, you can start with a full deck, purposely throw out the 'weak' cards, and 'randomly' draw when you need a better shot.

[Extra Anchovies]

You could always throw an infinite number of shields. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/shield-throwing)

Wow. That's... is that a rules oversight? I don't think they intended to allow that; combined with quick draw and a blinkback belt, doesn't that give us NI attacks/round?

[Endless Query]

To be fair, though, if each part of a "Harrow" deck can still count as a "Harrow" deck, do they stop being parts of the deck once you line them up together? Like, if I have three Harrow decks and put the cards all into separate pools and shuffle each of those pools together, resulting in, say, one deck of 48 19-20 crit cards, and one "deck" of 12 or 18 or whatever boosted cards, is that still valid? =P

As for "But Magus crit shenanigans!" 1) Spellstrike specifies that a critical spell is x2 damage no matter the weapon's modifier, and 2) If you were just doing this for crit shenanigans you could just grab a Spell Storing rapier or something and be immensely more terrifyingly destructive.

I'll admit, on some level, "cheesing" the Harrow Deck thing doesn't bother me too much simply because at the end of the day, that still doesn't really measure up to a lot of standard weapons that you aren't spending class features and a bunch of trouble on.

Also for potential silly, focusing on the card tossing, you could run a Card Caster Myrmidarch I suppose. The Ranged Spell Strike is a bit redundant/doesn't work (but since it's a replacement for a different class skill, still valid so far as I can tell) and you can get some throwing weapon training to maximize the effectiveness of the physical aspect of your darts. Also Weapon Specialization and stuff, so when you start pelting people with darts rather they're taking 1d4 + A lot more than 4 per hit to really make it worth your while.

[Feint's End]

The best throwers in pf are most likely psionic. They have a good amount of support feats and especially deadly throw for dex to damage.

The mobile knife marksman archetype for Xeph is pretty awesome too. Throw 1 superpowerful knife.

Edit: the best race for a magus thrower would be a blue. Xeph works too but worse stat adjustments. You definitely want deadly throw.

[Orsyn]

I'm actually running a Card Caster in my current campaign. I went CC/Kensai for the Dex synergy, and am trying to talk my DM into letting me retrain Kensai's chosen weapon to dart (right now it's dagger). Due to low casting progression (And low-magic setting, meaning I can't just nom pearls of power all day) I decided to focus on Chill Touch, which does a decent amount of strength damage when combined with the multitude of attacks CC can get. Re: TWF vs Rapid shot, remember that Magus already has Spell Combat, which acts as TWF. In theory you could stack later versions of TWF on top of it, but you'd be wasting a feat to get there.

[Endless Query]

I'll admit, if you can sell your GM on making Darts a Kensei's focused weapon, that could be really quite good, just, I feel like there's a lot of GMs who wouldn't go for it, since Kensei's are explicitly melee focused.

The problem with Spell Combat, for the Card Caster though, is this:


To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.

While the Myrmidarch, for example, could potentially get around it by holding and throwing a dagger (as that's a melee and ranged weapon), the cards aren't a light or one handed melee weapon and therefore can't be used with Spell Combat without special GM permission. So if you're actually specializing in "flurry of cards" you need standard TWF to pull it off.

[grarrrg]

Wow. That's... is that a rules oversight? I don't think they intended to allow that; combined with quick draw and a blinkback belt, doesn't that give us NI attacks/round?

Strictly RAW it seems to work just fine, so very much NOT intended.
But then there's common sense, and the fact a DM can limit number of Free Actions (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9r85).

[Prime32]

Also it's kinda sad how PF doesn't have much throwing weapon support.The Perfect Style (wind) feat chain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/unfolding-wind-rush-combat-style) seems relevant. Maybe a monk (Master of Many Styles) dip to pick them up at low levels?

Also, if 3.5 material is allowed then be sure to take Cards Over Swords (http://www.ravenoaks.org/jim/3da/files/LUCK_OF_THE_DRAW.PDF). :smalltongue:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Did... did WotC print a feat that allows you to resolve conflicts.... in a CHILDREN'S CARD GAME? My life is now complete and I have to make a diplomancer that (ab)uses this feat ASAP.

[Extra Anchovies]

Did... did WotC print a feat that allows you to resolve conflicts.... in a CHILDREN'S CARD GAME? My life is now complete and I have to make a diplomancer that (ab)uses this feat ASAP.

Just make sure the game you choose is Magic: the Gathering.

Or, for irony's sake, use one of the Pathfinder adventure card games in your D&D game :smallbiggrin:

[Endless Query]

Huh, a two level dip for the start of Unfolding Wind is nice, too bad getting the last feat either requires Monk 6, or level 18. Which is a little rough. Still makes a cute possible pseudo replacement for, or very silly combination with the other thrown support skills. Suddenly start chucking cards 80 feet with no range penalty.

[Feint's End]

Also, if 3.5 material is allowed then be sure to take Cards Over Swords (http://www.ravenoaks.org/jim/3da/files/LUCK_OF_THE_DRAW.PDF). :smalltongue:

What is this? .... I can't even .... madness I say!

"Yu-Gi-Oh D&D Edition ... for the times you really wanna annoy your Dungeonmaster. Get it now for only 99.99 and unleash the cards!"

[animewatcha]

Since pathfinder has the gunslinger...

http://www.detectiveconanworld.com/wiki/Card_Gun

[grarrrg]

Huh, a two level dip for the start of Unfolding Wind is nice, too bad getting the last feat either requires Monk 6, or level 18. Which is a little rough. Still makes a cute possible pseudo replacement for, or very silly combination with the other thrown support skills. Suddenly start chucking cards 80 feet with no range penalty.

You're dipping wrong.
Master of Many Styles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles)
"Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style). The master of many styles does not need to meet any other prerequisite of the feat in the style’s feat path."
MoMS 1 > Perfect Style
MoMS 2 > Unfolding Wind Rush (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/unfolding-wind-rush-combat-style)
Feel free to pick up Unfolding Wind Strike at your leisure (or never for that matter)

[Extra Anchovies]

You're dipping wrong.
Master of Many Styles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/master-of-many-styles)
"Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style). The master of many styles does not need to meet any other prerequisite of the feat in the style’s feat path."
MoMS 1 > Perfect Style
MoMS 2 > Unfolding Wind Rush (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/unfolding-wind-rush-combat-style)
Feel free to pick up Unfolding Wind Strike at your leisure (or never for that matter)

Hm. I want to make a MoMS-dip thrower now.

[Endless Query]

I am, in fact, failing to read well, and failing to dip well. I now have terrible images of like a level 3 Brawler/2 Master of Many Styles with like Pummeling Style and Pummeling Charge or something. Absurdly early pounce for the win. Toss in Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity so you can charge all day every day and get x1.5 Str on every hit.... And full Stunning and Elemental fist progression... And... Jeez that's silly. I may have to try that if the card thing doesn't pan out.

[Blyte]

Since you don't have to use arcane strike, I recommend dipping master of many styles for kirin style/strike at 7th lvl, to get double INT damage on one card

[grarrrg]

I am, in fact, failing to read well, and failing to dip well. I now have terrible images of like a level 3 Brawler/2 Master of Many Styles with like Pummeling Style and Pummeling Charge or something. Absurdly early pounce for the win. Toss in Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity so you can charge all day every day and get x1.5 Str on every hit.... And full Stunning and Elemental fist progression... And... Jeez that's silly. I may have to try that if the card thing doesn't pan out.

Feel free to throw in an early level of Unarmed Fighter archetype, it gets (almost) any Style Feat as a req-less bonus at 1st level (and then proceeds to kinda suck afterwards).