New player wanting to play shadow assassin

[Camman1984]

Have a wonderful idea for a character, a dark brooding assassin type who has pledged his soul to a greater power to enact vengeance in this life.

Basically I want to play this character but would like some constructive criticism and also some advice on the warlock aspect.

Character will be light foot halfling rogue 17 warlock 3 but probably won't get that high.

For the rogue I am going assassin, it matches the way I want to play him and unless someone has a valid reason why it doesn't work, it's staying.

The warlock is less clear, pact of the old one is useful, mainly for the 30ft telepathy to anything with a language. For invocations I am thinking the at will disguise self then I am at a loss for the second invocation as number of them seem great.

Then comes the big choice, my choice between book, pet and weapons. The invisible pet will be useful as a scouting ally, to great distractions and to aid me to get advantage. The weapon is cool because I will never be unarmed and I am sure I can build a custom weapon with a lock pick attachment ;). Then finally book, lots of spells and rituals that a rogue would benefit from so is so a valid option. Any suggestions (pet is my favourite)

As for spells, my can trips will be minor illusion (to help sneaking and distracting) and eldritch blast (why not lol). At level 1, hex will help replace that 1d6 sneak attack damage and I also wondered, is concentration affected by hex disadvantage? if so casters beware. Second spell is comprehend languages for even better spying. Again, advice would be appreciated.

So there you have it, my short bow welding pact assassin. I love this character concept so will probably change little but could do with some help trimming the edges and pointers to anything obvious I am missing.

Thanks for reading :)

[Yagyujubei]

there's debate as to whether or not you can make a bow your pact weapon, since even if you did, the actually damaging part (your arrows) are separate from the bow itself. so you may wanna ask your DM if you can do this.

[Rfkannen]

there's debate as to whether or not you can make a bow your pact weapon, since even if you did, the actually damaging part (your arrows) are separate from the bow itself. so you may wanna ask your DM if you can do this.

Or you know, I see no reason why arrows could not be your pact weapon. Plus they would get to bring the arrow back to them.

[Shadow]

Or you know, I see no reason why arrows could not be your pact weapon. Plus they would get to bring the arrow back to them.

Because arrows aren't a melee weapon. Furthermore, arrows aren't even a weapon, they're ammunition purchased not from the weapon table but from the equipment table.
The intent is absolutely 100% perfectly clear.

You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it (see chapter 5 for weapon options).

No discussion on it is needed, and people making claims otherwise either conveniently didn't notice that part or are trying to work the system.
Period.

[SaibenLocke]

Well I have been looking into a similar build. The pact weapon is good if you are going to be melee. The Book is great at higher lvls because it says you can only get up to half your Warlock lvl. The Imp as a pet is really good in my opinion. It can shapechange into a raven, or spider. Who would really even care about a raven on a window seal? Just so much RP flavor in that.

[Felvion]

1) If you take only 3 levels of warlock i think eldricht blast is unnecessary. Cha based attack with 1d10 force damage? Ok, it's at will but, really, is it worth 1 of your 2 at will spells? Any weapon ranged attack would be better.
The only reason i'd take eb would be to accompanny it with repelling blast invocation but still it seems a great waste of recources. True strike, Minor Illusion,Friends or mage hand could prove much better!
2) Since you make it to warlock 3 i'd suggest to take one or two more warlock levels.
-With one you gain:Ability boost or feat (why give it up if you get that close?), one more cantrip, one more lvl2 spell available, the possibility to have both your level 1 spells traded for lvl2 ones (even though armor of agathys is nice to keep).
-With second extra warlock level you gain: Access to two lvl 3 spells (one traded and one acquired), one extra powerful invocation. Depending on your pact choise this could Thirsting Blade (second attack) or Book of the ancient secrets.
Especially the second one is completely broken, it's even better than a feat! It lets you learn any ritual spell! You also get the first 2 of them for free like a refistration bonus. This way you can get the find familiar spell which is awesome (read its full description, its jaw-dropping). There is a guy that posted a warlock guide here:http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4133456 that has all the rituals spells in. Highly recommended!
3)Even of you stick to 3 levels of warlock, I think Mask of many faces and Misty visions are the most suited invocations for your theme.
4)Pact-wise i'd say book and if you dont like the best cantrips from any list (vicious mockery, guidance etc..) for free then go for familiar. Blade is bad if you wanna play ranged but it may be houseruled...
5)Better start with one lvl of rogue. More skills, expertise (if you take stealth and athletics you're almost invisible and better grappler than a fighter) and nice 1d6 sneak. Then take as many warlock you may like before going back to rogue.
Hope i helped, have fun with your halflng!

[Jamesps]

You may want to rethink either your race or your disguise self invocation. Disguise self only lets you modify your height by up to a foot, which as a halfling puts you at around 4'6 if I recall correctly. I guess it'd be good if you like mimicing children or goblins or such, but it seems like a waste with all the impersonation talents you'll have to not be able to mimic medium sized creatures.

Other than that, I like it.

[Camman1984]

Some really interesting points there, particularly around the 4th level feat issue.

I had also considered whether halfling was right for me. I guess I just used to reach straight for halfling when writing a stealth character in 3rd lol. Maybe wood elf would be better? Or even human variant for a feat?

[Camman1984]

I also missed the bit about melee only pact weapons so might give that one a miss. I never really considered the book a contender but those can trips and rituals look useful.

[Shining Wrath]

There's a feat which grants rituals; that might help with the pet / book / blade decision on your Warlock.

It seems that your Warlock, though, is more an add-on for fluff & story than it is integral to the build. You want to be someone who has a patron, not necessarily a Warlock.

Maybe go pure Assassin Rogue and talk to your DM about homebrewing something where you get a patron in exchange for having to perform services for said patron. Crunch-wise maybe you have to exchange 10% of your earned XP in exchange for being able to imbue your weapons and ammunition with some sort of eldritch poison as a bonus action.

[Camman1984]

I considered that as the warlock is mainly just for flavour, but the dm is newish so am reluctant to start messing with the book rules in case it opens a can of worms for him lol. Now looking at a wood elf, no more depending on other people to hide behind. And anyway that rule just seems silly lol.

[Shining Wrath]

Plus wood elves are FAST. And get automatic proficiencies with long and short bows, which can improve your assassination range.

[Camman1984]

Shame wood elves are stuck with that wisdom mod in their basic build, but then half elves would struggle to compete i think

[Shining Wrath]

Intelligence has been nerfed for 5e. There's not much use for it except knowledge skills.

[Camman1984]

If I went half elf would go Dex and con to go with cha.

What would you do for this concept race wise? Wood elves or half elf? Humans are cool but feats appeal to me less this edition lol

[Shining Wrath]

I can totally see a Wood Elf gone bad: "My name is Inigo Woodelfia. You killed my forest. Prepare to die." It's almost a Paladin of Vengeance crossed with a Oath of the Ancients Paladin vibe; his forest was destroyed, he seeks to avenge himself upon those who ruined it, and thus he swears fealty to an ancient unseelie Fey and sets out to water the seeds of a new forest with blood.

[Rhaegar14]

Since I've been mulling over a similar concept (though with a LOT more Warlock), this build actually screams Archfey Patron to me, especially on an Elf. Go read up on The Queen of Air and Darkness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fey_deities#Queen_of_Air_and_Darkness) (though that fluff is slightly out of date, you get the idea). As far as invocations are concerned, if you stay in Warlock until 5th level you can pick up One With Shadows, which lets you become invisible as an action in dim light or darkness. Devil's Sight is also appropriate, though maybe not worth the invocation on a character who isn't taking a lot of Warlock levels. Beguiling Influence adds to your list of proficient skills. Armor of Shadows will get you higher AC than any light armor, though again, maybe not worth it with so few invocations at your disposal. On a character who is meant to feel like an assassin, I much prefer the sprite companion for scouting. It feels more "right" than the book.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Since I've been mulling over a similar concept (though with a LOT more Warlock), this build actually screams Archfey Patron to me, especially on an Elf. Go read up on The Queen of Air and Darkness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fey_deities#Queen_of_Air_and_Darkness) (though that fluff is slightly out of date, you get the idea). As far as invocations are concerned, if you stay in Warlock until 5th level you can pick up One With Shadows, which lets you become invisible as an action in dim light or darkness. Devil's Sight is also appropriate, though maybe not worth the invocation on a character who isn't taking a lot of Warlock levels. Beguiling Influence adds to your list of proficient skills. Armor of Shadows will get you higher AC than any light armor, though again, maybe not worth it with so few invocations at your disposal. On a character who is meant to feel like an assassin, I much prefer the sprite companion for scouting. It feels more "right" than the book.

Consider monk instead of warlock. Move speed, use hands to assassinate people, better AC, flurry of blows. Ki returns on short rest.

If warlock, go 5 levels, especially if you're going to take the blade pact.

Tiefling would rock with seeing in magic darkness with a blade pact. You wouldn't need to waste an invocation on invisibility, and could instead get a second attack.

[oncnawan]

Period.

That clinches it. He must be right. (He IS correct. I am amused, though, by the use of "period" and "fact" as reasoned bases for argument online.)

I would suggest a few levels of Oathbreaker Paladin. Just two levels of paladin give you divine smite, which adds delicious damage dice to your assassinate-spawned criticals (assuming you surprise your target). Mix that with Warlock's spell slots that refresh on a short rest and fun sneaky spells like misty step for maximum potency. SliceandDice makes some good points about monk, too. Shadow teleportation is groovy.

[SliceandDiceKid]

That clinches it. He must be right. (He IS correct. I am amused, though, by the use of "period" and "fact" as reasoned bases for argument online.)

I would suggest a few levels of Oathbreaker Paladin. Just two levels of paladin give you divine smite, which adds delicious damage dice to your assassinate-spawned criticals (assuming you surprise your target). Mix that with Warlock's spell slots that refresh on a short rest and fun sneaky spells like misty step for maximum potency. SliceandDice makes some good points about monk, too. Shadow teleportation is groovy.

I think shadow, like many others, are tired of rules being ignored. I agree with his interpretation, and like both sides of that argument, I feel that the debate has been exhausted and exhausting.

For those who think you can pick any weapon as a pact weapon, good luck with your DM, and enjoy anything you can convince him/her of.

For those who read it as requiring a melee weapon, it's your responsibility to cite the rules in forums to provide that side of the debate, but we have to be civil

[oncnawan]

I think shadow, like many others, are tired of rules being ignored. I agree with his interpretation, and like both sides of that argument, I feel that the debate has been exhausted and exhausting.

For those who think you can pick any weapon as a pact weapon, good luck with your DM, and enjoy anything you can convince him/her of.

For those who read it as requiring a melee weapon, it's your responsibility to cite the rules in forums to provide that side of the debate, but we have to be civil

I'm with you fellers. Melee weapon is as melee weapon does (and it does state melee weapon in the text). Fortunately, ranged weapon fighting is viable in 5e without some of the tortuous build shenannigans that 3x required. So, archers shouldn't feel totally unloved by a RAW reading of Bladelock. I would like to see some archery love outside of Ranger and Fighter, though. Zen Archery was fun in the past.

[hecetv]

I don't know if this has been said already but I don't think monk/rogue multiclass really makes a lot of sense. I know the sixth level ability of shadow monks seems like it's tailor made for a rogue multiclass and I know assassin and ninja fit really well together.

But, too many rogue and monk abilities overlap. You have too many things to do with your bonus action. A rogue (maybe even with athletics and acrobatics) can essentially move around a battlefield unmolested enough with his bonus action that I don't know if he needs to be able to teleport. With expertise in stealth I don't know if you need to be able to cast pass without trace or turn invisible. I don't really think the bonus damage from using martial arts will really make up for lost sneak attack damage and probably your AC from martial arts versus studded leather will be comparable up until high levels, and anyway you can dodge as a bonus action as a rogue.

Monks ki growth will fall behind from taking rogue levels and you have to make hard choices about what abilities to delay or miss altogether.

If not for the shadow teleportation I don't think most people would even care for most monk abilities or if not for a slight increase of damage from sneak attack I don't think most people would consider rogue multiclass, and really I think either class makes up for the other. There's just so much overlap I don't think in a real game starting at level one the things you give up multiclassing for this build are worth it.

Just my two cents. I know people will say it's dumb to worry about having too many bonus action options, and abstractly I agree with that position, but in this case I don't know that for a rogue in order to get the ability to teleport as opposed to just cunning action around is really worth a six level multiclass into monk.

I could be wrong and I welcome the possibility because shadow dancer was my fav prestige by far when I was younger and played 3.5. Something about it is so cool and isn't captured (for me) in the way of the shadow monk path. And for that matter neither is it captured by rogue monk multiclass. Where's summoning a shadow???

Idk just food for thought. I'm still wavering on that position. I think rogue is stupidly powerful in this edition and I think monk is thusfar unappreciated as a controller. And in either case is a multiclass worth it where you won't get some of either classes strongest abilities and you'll delay their respective progressions? **** as I'm writing this I'm starting to think so because I want my 3.5 shadow dancer back. But idk. Also thematically I'm not sold on rogue/monk being a thing but I know people out there will feel differently.

Egh whatever.

[SliceandDiceKid]

I don't know if this has been said already but I don't think monk/rogue multiclass really makes a lot of sense. I know the sixth level ability of shadow monks seems like it's tailor made for a rogue multiclass and I know assassin and ninja fit really well together.

But, too many rogue and monk abilities overlap. You have too many things to do with your bonus action. A rogue (maybe even with athletics and acrobatics) can essentially move around a battlefield unmolested enough with his bonus action that I don't know if he needs to be able to teleport. With expertise in stealth I don't know if you need to be able to cast pass without trace or turn invisible. I don't really think the bonus damage from using martial arts will really make up for lost sneak attack damage and probably your AC from martial arts versus studded leather will be comparable up until high levels, and anyway you can dodge as a bonus action as a rogue.

Monks ki growth will fall behind from taking rogue levels and you have to make hard choices about what abilities to delay or miss altogether.

If not for the shadow teleportation I don't think most people would even care for most monk abilities or if not for a slight increase of damage from sneak attack I don't think most people would consider rogue multiclass, and really I think either class makes up for the other. There's just so much overlap I don't think in a real game starting at level one the things you give up multiclassing for this build are worth it.

Just my two cents. I know people will say it's dumb to worry about having too many bonus action options, and abstractly I agree with that position, but in this case I don't know that for a rogue in order to get the ability to teleport as opposed to just cunning action around is really worth a six level multiclass into monk.

I could be wrong and I welcome the possibility because shadow dancer was my fav prestige by far when I was younger and played 3.5. Something about it is so cool and isn't captured (for me) in the way of the shadow monk path. And for that matter neither is it captured by rogue monk multiclass. Where's summoning a shadow???

Idk just food for thought. I'm still wavering on that position. I think rogue is stupidly powerful in this edition and I think monk is thusfar unappreciated as a controller. And in either case is a multiclass worth it where you won't get some of either classes strongest abilities and you'll delay their respective progressions? **** as I'm writing this I'm starting to think so because I want my 3.5 shadow dancer back. But idk. Also thematically I'm not sold on rogue/monk being a thing but I know people out there will feel differently.

Egh whatever.

My suggestion was no more than a 2 or 3 level dip.

[Shadow]

So, archers shouldn't feel totally unloved by a RAW reading of Bladelock.

Warlocks already have an amazing ranged option, and what is arguably the best single target ranged option in the game, so I don't feel the need to give "archer" warlocks any love at all.


I don't know if this has been said already but I don't think monk/rogue multiclass really makes a lot of sense.

It's true that some of thier features overlap a little, but they also synergize extremely well.
I have a concept that I'm eventually going to play (DMing one game now and playing a different chacater in another) for a fighter 1/way of shadow monk 6/arcane trickster rogue 13.
If your DM rules that monk weapons using Dex count as finesse weapons (it's not RAW, but it's perfectly reasonable) then that build with a quarterstaff, GWF style from fighter, Polearm Master no need for a second wepaon to get additional attacks is amazing.
Tons of flavor and ridiculous DPR and amazing mobility/utility, while not really losing out on any major rogue abilities.
It's basically the ultimate staff fighter rogue.

[SaibenLocke]

If you haven't read the PHB blurb about Deep Gnome you should give that a look see. You get nondetection at will. :) Superior dark vision without the sunlight sensitivity. I was going to use that as a rogueish build. I also found that the Kenku look like an amazing race to play. I've discussed it with my DM and he says that I can play it but I have to keep the Mimicry trait lol. It is going to make for some fun RP.

[Camman1984]

The pure class of rogue is very appealing as it is a very good class. That is why I am limiting myself to a few levels of warlock. Gonna stick with 4 warlock for ASI.

[hecetv]

It's true that some of thier features overlap a little, but they also synergize extremely well.
I have a concept that I'm eventually going to play (DMing one game now and playing a different chacater in another) for a fighter 1/way of shadow monk 6/arcane trickster rogue 13.
If your DM rules that monk weapons using Dex count as finesse weapons (it's not RAW, but it's perfectly reasonable) then that build with a quarterstaff, GWF style from fighter, Polearm Master no need for a second wepaon to get additional attacks is amazing.
Tons of flavor and ridiculous DPR and amazing mobility/utility, while not really losing out on any major rogue abilities.
It's basically the ultimate staff fighter rogue.

That sounds cool and I like at least in my head how that's going in three arcs. War hero fighter, trains in a monetary after the war for a while and becomes a ninja, gets really into magic in the third act. That's a kind of build that doesn't really interest me but power to you.

If I end up dming a game martial arts would definitely count as a finesse weapon.

[GiantOctopodes]

I don't know if this has been said already but I don't think monk/rogue multiclass really makes a lot of sense. I know the sixth level ability of shadow monks seems like it's tailor made for a rogue multiclass and I know assassin and ninja fit really well together.

But, too many rogue and monk abilities overlap. You have too many things to do with your bonus action. A rogue (maybe even with athletics and acrobatics) can essentially move around a battlefield unmolested enough with his bonus action that I don't know if he needs to be able to teleport. With expertise in stealth I don't know if you need to be able to cast pass without trace or turn invisible. I don't really think the bonus damage from using martial arts will really make up for lost sneak attack damage and probably your AC from martial arts versus studded leather will be comparable up until high levels, and anyway you can dodge as a bonus action as a rogue.

Monks ki growth will fall behind from taking rogue levels and you have to make hard choices about what abilities to delay or miss altogether.

If not for the shadow teleportation I don't think most people would even care for most monk abilities or if not for a slight increase of damage from sneak attack I don't think most people would consider rogue multiclass, and really I think either class makes up for the other. There's just so much overlap I don't think in a real game starting at level one the things you give up multiclassing for this build are worth it.

Just my two cents. I know people will say it's dumb to worry about having too many bonus action options, and abstractly I agree with that position, but in this case I don't know that for a rogue in order to get the ability to teleport as opposed to just cunning action around is really worth a six level multiclass into monk.

I could be wrong and I welcome the possibility because shadow dancer was my fav prestige by far when I was younger and played 3.5. Something about it is so cool and isn't captured (for me) in the way of the shadow monk path. And for that matter neither is it captured by rogue monk multiclass. Where's summoning a shadow???

Idk just food for thought. I'm still wavering on that position. I think rogue is stupidly powerful in this edition and I think monk is thusfar unappreciated as a controller. And in either case is a multiclass worth it where you won't get some of either classes strongest abilities and you'll delay their respective progressions? **** as I'm writing this I'm starting to think so because I want my 3.5 shadow dancer back. But idk. Also thematically I'm not sold on rogue/monk being a thing but I know people out there will feel differently.

Egh whatever.

I have to disagree, as someone considering Rogue / Monk. First, you can never have "too many" things to do with your bonus action. Now, if they provided the same options as a bonus action, that would be one thing. But having more options for your bonus action merely makes it more likely that I will have exactly the option I want for any given situation. And

Sure, Stealth does a *lot* for moving around areas unmolested. However, Teleport is a different thing altogether. Tons of light and guards bustling about everywhere, with clear lines of sight of the areas you need to move through? Have a DM that rules (not unfairly) that no matter how high your stealth, if you have a guard staring directly at a door through which you must move, that unless you're invisible he will see you? Well, Teleport opens up options that simply aren't possible otherwise. You don't need to move across that crowded barracks floor, just need to be able to see the end of it. Need to evade those who are tracking you? Well, if your tracks simply end somewhere, it slows them down quite a bit. Especially since, as long as you have line of sight from one shadow to the next, you can bounce from one to another to another, never actually taking a step the whole way. And, let's face it, shadow step wins in terms of the rule of cool. Worth losing Death Strike? Probably not, but I'm just saying, it is certainly not without merit to make that choice.

In terms of damage, losing out on two dice of sneak attack damage is potentially 28 damage lost (7 x2 (crit) x2 (death strike), but in that same situation, 2 more attacks provides potentially (3.5 x2 (crit on unarmed die) =7 +5 (ability score) =12 x2 (death strike) =24 x2 (attacks) = 48 damage gained, not to mention a fair bit of consistency. As soon as you lose Death Strike, damage calculations go out the window, as now you've severely (and I do mean severely) nerfed yourself in some situations, while increased your damage potential (though not by that much) in others.

In terms of Ki and Monk abilities, the things that personally appeal to me most are the magical ones (though Flurry of Blows is not bad). Most of the time, your Rogue abilities will see you through in terms of getting around undetected. Pass without trace, though, defeats Tremorsense, Blindsense, epically awesome trackers, scent, etc, and provides an "I win" button on that end as needed. The only way that remains to find you that I've seen so far is with Locate Creature, and that shouldn't be a problem too often. Most of the time, you're able to take out a single target, possibly even a pair of targets, as you're sneaking around, without drawing attention. Sometimes, though, you just need to go and lock the doors, drop silence, and take your time taking out a bunch of folks. Again, not things that happen often, but they're tools in the belt for when it does happen, and them not happening often just means that not having a ton of ki with which to power them isn't that big of a problem.

In terms of AC, sure, studded is better. But if you're an assassin, and you wear different identities like clothes, and are running around currently as the Duke of Ellington, does studded armour really make sense? If you are supposedly an assistant chef, awaiting the presence of the head taster, that you might take him out and replace him in time for the king's advisor, whom you will similarly take out to give you clear and unimpeded access to the King himself, do any of those guys wear studded leather? And for those who are unarmoured, in the roles that are far more likely to be taken when stuff hits the fan, having the boosted unarmoured AC helps a bunch. It also helps to be unarmoured in order to switch roles at the drop of a hat. None of that matters when travelling through a dungeon with your friends, but it's not like your AC is worse in those situations, again, it's just more tools on the belt.

Monk / Rogue is the most mobile of mobile, the most versatile of versatile, and the absolute master of stealth and shadows. A 3 level dip provides precariously little Ki, but gets 90% of the reasons you would want that dip, and keeps Death Strike. A 6 level dip provides Extra Attack and Teleportation, and gives a sizable Ki pool to work with (for your needs, anyway), but loses Death Strike and some other features. Either has merit in my book, depending on the type of character you want to play.

[Yagyujubei]

I don't know if this has been said already but I don't think monk/rogue multiclass really makes a lot of sense. I know the sixth level ability of shadow monks seems like it's tailor made for a rogue multiclass and I know assassin and ninja fit really well together.

But, too many rogue and monk abilities overlap. You have too many things to do with your bonus action. A rogue (maybe even with athletics and acrobatics) can essentially move around a battlefield unmolested enough with his bonus action that I don't know if he needs to be able to teleport. With expertise in stealth I don't know if you need to be able to cast pass without trace or turn invisible. I don't really think the bonus damage from using martial arts will really make up for lost sneak attack damage and probably your AC from martial arts versus studded leather will be comparable up until high levels, and anyway you can dodge as a bonus action as a rogue.

Monks ki growth will fall behind from taking rogue levels and you have to make hard choices about what abilities to delay or miss altogether.

If not for the shadow teleportation I don't think most people would even care for most monk abilities or if not for a slight increase of damage from sneak attack I don't think most people would consider rogue multiclass, and really I think either class makes up for the other. There's just so much overlap I don't think in a real game starting at level one the things you give up multiclassing for this build are worth it.

Just my two cents. I know people will say it's dumb to worry about having too many bonus action options, and abstractly I agree with that position, but in this case I don't know that for a rogue in order to get the ability to teleport as opposed to just cunning action around is really worth a six level multiclass into monk.

I could be wrong and I welcome the possibility because shadow dancer was my fav prestige by far when I was younger and played 3.5. Something about it is so cool and isn't captured (for me) in the way of the shadow monk path. And for that matter neither is it captured by rogue monk multiclass. Where's summoning a shadow???

Idk just food for thought. I'm still wavering on that position. I think rogue is stupidly powerful in this edition and I think monk is thusfar unappreciated as a controller. And in either case is a multiclass worth it where you won't get some of either classes strongest abilities and you'll delay their respective progressions? **** as I'm writing this I'm starting to think so because I want my 3.5 shadow dancer back. But idk. Also thematically I'm not sold on rogue/monk being a thing but I know people out there will feel differently.

Egh whatever.

see the thing is that if you take levels in rogue, your Ki growth may be slightly behind the curve, BUT you get a bunch of ways to do the things monk does WITHOUT using Ki so in the long run you'll be able to save your Ki points for more important things like stunning strike.

[hecetv]

see the thing is that if you take levels in rogue, your Ki growth may be slightly behind the curve, BUT you get a bunch of ways to do the things monk does WITHOUT using Ki so in the long run you'll be able to save your Ki points for more important things like stunning strike.

I can get down with this reasoning. 14/6 you get blind sense too which is kind of cool. And you don't miss out on ABIs really because rogue gets those three in a row 8-12.

And to GiantOctopodes I didn't mean stealth, either class can stealth fine. I meant with disengage and dash as a bonus action you can probably move around a battlefield as well or better if well lit as a shadow dancer can. That said shadow monk can teleport out of prison cells, locked doors, around traps and other stuff which is pretty swanky.

Now I'm starting to feel like pure monk is more effective at this and you don't need a rogue dip but whatever.