Dragon Slayer 3.5

[StoneCipher]

I am looking to make a quintessential Dragon Slayer type and I have no idea where to begin. Has anyone made any dragon slayers in the past? I am looking to, at most, only LEAN on magic to help me and not just make a wizard that can do this.

I'm preferential to melee, but physical ranged would work as well.

Do you know of any guides that are already existing?

Does the Dragonslayer class hold any good benefits?

What boxes would need to be checked to make an effective Dragon Slayer?


High BAB
High Damage
Mobility or Crowd Control
Dex Damage


Those are the things I can think of off the top of my head. Obviously a physical damage character would not be the BEST way to go about killing a dragon, but I want to make that badass.

Without further adieu, I'm open to suggestions as to where to start looking for dragon killing classes and feats.

[Zaq]

Well, if you're fighting smart dragons (and dragons should be smart, if you look at their mental stats), you have to realize that dragons are, first and foremost, spellcasters. Really really beefy spellcasters, but spellcasters nonetheless. So you're going to need a way to deal with them flinging spells around, both in terms of things that make themselves awesome and in terms of things that make you suck.

At a minimum, you're going to want a non-sucky dispelling ability, which is hard to get while staying mundane. High saves and Evasion/Mettle are going to be useful to begin with (breath weapons hurt, after all), and they'll take some of the sting out of at least a category of offensive spells. Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Protection/Concealment aren't cure-alls, but they're going to help. A fly speed might be useful, since dragons do tend to be able to fly, which means they can kite you if you're not either ranged or airborne yourself. And of course, you'll need enough miss chance/AC/HP to take at least a couple rounds of claw/claw/bite/wing/wing/tail. And all of this is before we're actually killing the dragons . . . it's just preventing you from getting killed yourself.

But yeah. Dragons cast spells. Without a way to deal with those spells, you're going to be a sitting duck. So figure out what magic you're going to allow yourself to use (because only magic can really counter magic, sad to say) first, because that's going to be critical to your success.

[AvatarVecna]

Zaq's got it right: dragons are too smart not to use their spells properly. Honestly, to take on a dragon without a good supply of spells yourself, you have to get sneak. The Dragonslayer PrC is decent for this, but I much prefer the Dragonstalker PrC from the same book: it's more for rogues than fighters, and with rogues using UMD to deal with spells, I think that's as mundane a dragonkiller as you're going to get.

EDIT: I'd probably do a build like: Human Rogue 4/Scout 2/Ranger 1/Dragonstalker 10/Uncanny Trickster 3, focusing on using Greater Manyshot, stealth, and UMD to Sneak Attack that dragon into negative HP.

[StoneCipher]

I am fine with using any magic as an AID but I ideally want the majority of the assault to come from the mundane aspect. A beefy cleric is not out of the question but the less magic he himself casts. As a dragon slayer, any good living dragon slayer will be smart enough to know that they can't beatstick a dragon. They're either going to have to rely on them casting some spells or someone else doing it for them.

Suffice to say, its a mountainous task to say a mundane could solo a dragon of significant age. I'm not saying he needs to be a monster of a man. I'm just looking to specialize in the killing of dragons.

[Manly Man]

Well, there's always Psychic Warrior, since not only do you get powers to help buff yourself up, you also get access to a lot of psionic feats, which can make the BAB a non-issue (Deep Impact for a melee touch attack, yo). Psionic Meditation, (Greater) Psionic Weapon, Psicrystal Affinity, and a bunch of others that grant you bonuses that most other warrior-types can only dream of.

The Dragonslayer class is... okay. Definitely better in a dragon-heavy campaign, but on the whole, it's neither terrible nor great. The main draw to it that I see is the immunity to fear, which makes sense; if you aren't afraid of a dragon, there's not much else to be afraid of, really. However, that comes at level one, so you wouldn't have to do more than a single dip.

Alternately, you can build a couple of initiators to fight them. Warblade is the first to come to mind, because they have the Iron Heart discipline, which is pretty much distilled badassery forged into a fighting style. Diamond Mind maneuvers can really help with that as well, since maneuvers like the Nightmare Blade line are pretty glorious. Emerald Razor is great if you want to just make sure that your Power Attack+Leap Attack that drains your BAB to nothing hits, or take the Shock Trooper feat so as to free up the maneuver; we're talking a dragon here, if it wants to maul you to death with its claws and teeth, your AC 40 isn't going to help you much. In fact, combine the Shock Trooper bit with something like Ruby/Diamond Nightmare Blade, and smash the dragon into oblivion when you double or quadruple all your damage. A Crusader could tank out hit after hit from the dragon, healing themselves as they whittle the big lizard down, using Stone Dragon maneuvers whenever possible to smash even harder. A Swordsage would be interesting as well, since they also get Diamond Mind maneuvers, and they also get Setting Sun, which would lead to hilarity when you use Tornado Throw and chuck the red great wyrm over the horizon.

[heavyfuel]

If you get even a single level in Ranger, be sure to pick up FE:Arcanist, as it works on True Dragons as well as arcane spellcaster

[Manly Man]

If you get even a single level in Ranger, be sure to pick up FE:Arcanist, as it works on True Dragons as well as arcane spellcaster

This is very sound advice.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Is this theorycraft or are you actually going to be hunting dragons? In the latter case, what level do you expect to reach? Older dragons are dangerous spellcasters but the youngsters aren't quite so dangerous in that regard. Until they reach at least mature adult, most of them cast as a sorcerer of half their CR or less. You'll also have your party with you, I'd imagine, this makes them even less threatening until they start to get on in years.

[J-H]

Here's one I made for a game that died shortly after the enemy dragon was defeated:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=661109

Dragonstalker is from the Draconomicon. The Force property let me ignore the enemy dragon's DR, I had 12d6 bonus damage vs dragons, a lot of attacks, and could completely hide from the dragon for 10 minutes per day (no scent, blindsight immunity, invisibility, huge Hide modifier).

[Red Fel]

Two things I'd like to chip in. First, a disclaimer: These suggestions only work if your PC is willing to discriminate between Evil Dragons and Dragons That Aren't Quite So Bad, Even Though They're Still Pretty Scary. If he wants to kill all Dragons, without distinction, disregard the remainder of this post.

First: Dragonborn (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b) template. On its own, it offers you three valuable features. First, a Dodge bonus against Dragons. Second, immunity to Frightful Presence. And third, the Wings aspect gives you (Ex) flight, which will be invaluable when engaging with an airborne enemy. If you decide to go with a class like Paladin (why?), you could also take the Dragonborn (sub-par but flavorful) racial substitution levels, letting you detect and smite dragons, and giving your mount immunity to Frightful Presence.

Second: Vassal of Bahamut. Okay, it's not the most epically powerful class. But it has a few good things going. First, sweet suit of armor. Second, expanded senses. Third, oodles of cash. Fourth, very minor partial spellcasting. Fifth, couple of bonus feats. Sixth - this is the biggie - Dragonwrack. A very unique ability that does three things. First, you deal bonus damage to Dragons, increasing with VoB level. Second, they take damage just for attacking you, again increasing with VoB level. Third - and this is the major point - half of that damage is permanent hit point loss. As in, burned away forever (short of Wish or Miracle). You become literally cripplingly toxic to Dragons.

The catch is that both involve being loyal to Bahamut, the god of Good Dragons. So if you hate all Dragons indiscriminately, these aren't good choices for you.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Vassal of Bahamut does have one other minor drawback; the special requirement: you must -singlehandedly- slay a juvenile or older red dragon (CR 10 -minimum-). It's not such a big deal if you wait until level 10+ to enter the class but getting in on time, lvl 7, is no mean feat for a non-caster.

[LTwerewolf]

If you plan on going the sneaky route, you need to either get access to hide from dragons or take darkstalker. Nothing is worse than their other senses ruining your sneaking.

[AvatarVecna]

If you plan on going the sneaky route, you need to either get access to hide from dragons or take darkstalker. Nothing is worse than their other senses ruining your sneaking.

Between the "Darkstalker" feat, the Dragonstalker PrC goodies, and some decent UMD abuse, there isn't a dragon alive that has a chance of finding you.

[LTwerewolf]

Between the "Darkstalker" feat, the Dragonstalker PrC goodies, and some decent UMD abuse, there isn't a dragon alive that has a chance of finding you.

Their minions and traps on the other hand may still pose a threat without a little extra doing. You always have to assume their lairs are trapped 6 ways to sunday and that each dragon has a different minion you'll have to find a way to overcome because they very well might. The ability to gather information at a decent level will let you prefer for such eventualities.

[AvatarVecna]

The Darkstalker build stub I presented up thread may be specialized in killing dragons too much to deal with their minions properly...but that's what Leadership is for!

[Extra Anchovies]

The Darkstalker build stub I presented up thread may be specialized in killing dragons too much to deal with their minions properly...but that's what Leadership is for!

Alternately, in a fairly dragon-heavy game, you could be "the dragon guy"; similarly to how the getaway driver in a heist pretty much only drives the getaway vehicle, you'd almost entirely concern yourself with taking down dragons.

[LTwerewolf]

The Darkstalker build stub I presented up thread may be specialized in killing dragons too much to deal with their minions properly...but that's what Leadership is for!

The issue with leadership is that your minion would similarly need to be undetectable to dragons as well, else you won't have a minion for long. Dealing with minions isn't typically too strenuous with liberal use of umd and ingested poisons.

[AvatarVecna]

The issue with leadership is that your minion would similarly need to be undetectable to dragons as well, else you won't have a minion for long. Dealing with minions isn't typically too strenuous with liberal use of umd and ingested poisons.

The minion doesn't need to get close to the dragon...or even be less powerful than the main. The main character is almost entirely mundane with some UMD thrown on; the cohort can be a wizard, for all it matters. I imagine, given how many people talk about paranoid wizards being undetectable/unkillable, it wouldn't be a problem for such a character.

[LTwerewolf]

I made the (not wholly unfair) assumption that since the op didn't want to abuse magic for the primary character, any cohort would have to follow the same rule, disqualifying wizard, else the exercise would be the solution of "let your cohort do it" defeating the spirit of what the op wanted.

[AvatarVecna]

I made the (not wholly unfair) assumption that since the op didn't want to abuse magic for the primary character, any cohort would have to follow the same rule, disqualifying wizard, else the exercise would be the solution of "let your cohort do it" defeating the spirit of what the op wanted.

It's more "The wizard will get us into the dragon's lair, and we'll leave the dragon to the specialized dragon slayer" than "just let the wizard do it and I'll take all the credit".

[Jeff the Green]

Hmm. Assuming you want to leave out dragonwrought kobolds, you could go with a wyrm of war mercury dragon wyrmling Unarmed Swordsage 2/Warmind 1/Slayer 10/Warblade 1/Master of Nine 2. Use your Wyrm of War feats to get the three prereqs to Mo9 that you can, plus, say, Power Attack and Intuitive Attack. Be sure to pick up Superior Unarmed Strike, Multiattack, Snap Kick and Beast Strike* as well as Mourning Mutate* and Inhuman Reach. Shape Soulmeld (Dragon Tail), (Improved) Rapidstrike, and Deepspawn would be nice too. Pouncing Charge, Sudden Leap (+68 Jump from speed, chicken-pluckas!), psionic lion's charge, and hustle should be priorities, obviously, but don't neglect the other things maneuvers and powers can do.

I know WhamBamSam recommends Ardent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?303204-The-Truest-of-the-True-A-Handbook-to-non-Kobold-Dragons-(WIP)), and it is probably superior, but I like fitting in the maneuvers and it works well with Beast Strike.

It's unfortunate that the gem dragons weren't updated in XPH like the coatl, mindflayer, etc were, but then the earliest ECL they get casting (which would hypothetically be converted to manifesting) would be 15, and that means you'd only ever get 5 levels of Slayer and 5th-level manifesting pre-epic.

*Dragon Magazine, unfortunately.

[Coidzor]

As for the PrC, if you can get around the feat tax(Hello Otyugh Hole!) to get into it, it's not a bad level to dip along with Abjurant Champion and immunity to fear is always nice. Otherwise the feat tax is just too onerous for a gish chassis, and it's not good for anything beyond dipping at the end of the day, given that one has to gish it up to enter in the first place.

[Extra Anchovies]

Mourning Mutate*

What issue/page is it from, and/or what does it do? It's usually quite difficult to find dragmag content via google.

[Jeff the Green]

As for the PrC, if you can get around the feat tax(Hello Otyugh Hole!) to get into it, it's not a bad level to dip along with Abjurant Champion and immunity to fear is always nice. Otherwise the feat tax is just too onerous for a gish chassis, and it's not good for anything beyond dipping at the end of the day, given that one has to gish it up to enter in the first place.

Yes, but that's Dragonslayer. He clearly asked for a Dragon Slayer. I don't know why everyone's so focused on killing dragons instead of being one.


What issue/page is it from, and/or what does it do? It's usually quite difficult to find dragmag content via google.

#359, dunno the page, counts as Aberration Blood for qualifying for Aberrant feats (that's the important thing; the build needs Inhuman Reach because it's tiny and it's not humanoid so no Aberration blood) and gives one of several minor benefits: DR 3/- for nonlethal damage, +3 to saves vs. poison or disease, Intimidate, Escape Artist, Listen, or Spot, or +2 damage with unarmed strikes.

It's also the first thing that comes up if you google "mourning mutate". :smallwink:

[Jowgen]

A good place to start would be a single level of ranger with the following goodies:
Favored Enemy Arcanist (Complete Mage)
Enemy Spirit Pouch, keyed to Dragons, giving you them as a favored enemy and +1 attack,
The Solitiary Hunting ACF to get favored enemy bonus to attack
+1 Hunting boot blade (or similar) to get you favored enemy damage bonus up by 4
Girdle of Hate (Dragon Compendium) to Double all your favored enemy bonuses
+1 Magebane Dragonbane weapon of choice, which functions as a +5 Weapon that deals an extra 4d6 damage against dragons for the price of a +3.

If your DM lets the spirit pouch give you FE Dragon for all intents and purposes, all your favored enemy bonuses to hit and damage (this is boosted by 4) apply twice against dragons, in addtion to being doubled by the Girdle of Hate. Doing maths at the top of my head, a single level of ranger can thusly net you + 9 to hit and + to 24 damage; not counting the Magebane Dragonbane weapon. Combine with lots of attacks for straight-up murder.

Oh, and Boots of Side-Stepping (Dugeonscape) to effectively negate any line-shaped breath weapons, and Dragondoger armor to get evasion against breathweapons, if need be.

[Optimator]

In my experience archery is pretty good against dragons (obviously this will vary on your table and optimization levels, but so will the dragon so I think it's a moot point). The range helps with flying (although your damage may suffer, depending on where you're getting you bonus damage from) and preparing an action to interrupt casting is infinitely easier with archery. Between specialized weapons and arrows (bane, holy, collision, the proper elemental arrows, souldraining--the negative level one from BoVD, wounding--keep in mind it's not prohibited for ranged weapons and merely doesn't appear on the ranged weapon table), Ranger FE damage, skirmish, sneak attack, sudden strike, Dead Eye, Greater Bracers of Archery, enlarged weapon/person stuff, and Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration, you can be quite the deadly volley archer or skirmish archer and make those dragons suffer.

I bet there's a great build to be had using Harmonious Knight Paladin (or is it Initiate of Milil? The Paladin that gets nearly full Inspire Courage on the cheap) and Ranger together to really give dragons (or anything, really) what-for. Cleric archers, too. Chameleons make some insane archers, considering they can draw buffs from the Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Assassin, Wizard, and Bard spell lists. Use Duskblade to enter and ask you DM if you can take a feat to channel spells into ranged attacks!

[LTwerewolf]

Slaying arrows are a thing, as are volley archers. Any dragon worth their salt has something with wind wall.

[Coidzor]

Yes, but that's Dragonslayer. He clearly asked for a Dragon Slayer. I don't know why everyone's so focused on killing dragons instead of being one.

#359, dunno the page, counts as Aberration Blood for qualifying for Aberrant feats (that's the important thing; the build needs Inhuman Reach because it's tiny and it's not humanoid so no Aberration blood) and gives one of several minor benefits: DR 3/- for nonlethal damage, +3 to saves vs. poison or disease, Intimidate, Escape Artist, Listen, or Spot, or +2 damage with unarmed strikes.

His third or fourth question was about the PrC. :smalltongue: And it's still a fairly OK Dip for a Dragon that has racial spellcasting and is dragon-gishing it up.

Yep, it's kinda too bad they made Aberration Blood Humanoid Only in the first place, really. That's some nice monstrous customization. At least Drag patches it, even if they forgot to leave in an adaptation section for it in non-Eberronian settings, ah well, not like we can't think of ways to handle the fluff easily enough, right?

[Blackhawk748]

I second Vassal of Bahamut, as it is REALLY good at screwing up Evil Dragons. Actually i was gonna use it on a Mounted Paladin Build that went something like this: Draconic Tiefling Lion Spirit Totem 1/Spelless Cursebreaker Paladin 6/ Vassal of Bahamut 10. I was gonna trade out the mount for a Drakkensteed and i dual wield valorous dragon bane lances while a dragonback with the Spirited Charge line. It hits absurdly hard and it leaves Evil Dragons in particular a mess.

Other than that, i recommend a Swift Hunter with favored enemy Arcanist into Dragonstalker.